SPOILERS!!! Discussion of Inception
POSTED BY: jewelstaitefan
UPDATED: Thursday, April 16, 2015 05:07
VIEWED: 15884
PAGE 4 of 8
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Originally posted by mal4prez:
Well, and also because a movie can't go on forever.Really, if they did mean that Cobb's dream was going to go on and on, are you saying they could only accomplish that by never ending the movie? Or might they suggest it by resolving all his difficulties, putting him in a peaceful place, and showing a spinny top that doesn't fall?
Hahahaha! No, the movie obviously couldn't go on forever and that's not exactly what I'm saying, although I can see how you got there. This links in to a point further down but I think the movie ends because Cobb wakes up. It doesn't show him getting a kick but it also doesn't show what hapens to the spinning top. We agree that it wobbles but as we seem to have different ideas on this particular totem it means different things to us both. I just think he does get a kick and it may be his kids, or Miles, or something we just don't know about. We have no way of knowing it just fits with my overall theory in my head.
They could have shown several things at the end but instead left it open by stopping where they did. Any more footage and we could have seen evidence to push one theory more to the front than others or even clarify too much and where would the fun be in that.
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Ah yes. I like the idea of the movie goers sharing the dream. It certainly had that feeling. Could you feel how entranced the audience was? No one talked, though I heard gasps occasionally. Not just at effects and action, but at some of the lines about true creativity. It was such an engrossing movie.
I saw it NYC both times, and experienced some pretty intense surrealism coming out into the streets again. Especially walking through crowded Times Square. It was bizarre, and very much like waking up confused by a dream.
BTW, have you ever had a waking dream? I have. In fact, had a little bit of one the night after I saw this movie the first time. Interesting parallels to Ariadne's first experience.
Here in England the audience don't react the same way as I've seen US folk do. It makes me laugh when I see footage of US viewers reactions, especially at horror movies. They are so OTT.
But when it got to the end of Inception I could sense a guy in the seat behind me move forward and there was a definite sound of folks exclaiming "Nooo!", "Whaat!" and various other similar expressions. And as we left there was more of a hubub (sp?) of noise with people talking than we usually get.
No I've never has a waking dream, I tend not to remember mine. I did sleep talk for a couple of months as a kid but it soon passed.
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I don't think we'll know what Mal's original idea with it was unless they make a sequel. I really really hope they don't. Leave this beauty as is and don't do what the Matrix did!
Having seen a few interviews with Nolan it won't be him that makes it which means that it could be ignored quite easily. I would like to think that even the studios would leave it alone but stranger things have happened. I
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Anyhow, there's also the possibility that the spinny totem is part of Saito manipulation. We do first see it in his hands, after all. Perhaps he added it, perhaps he took it from Cobb's mind and changed it. It could be like the will in Fischer's dad's safe: an object purely meant to help the subject construct the implanted idea.
What do you think of Saito being active in this way? I've pretty much convinced myself of it. Obviously LOL! But I like hearing other ideas.
I agree that Saito is a major player, he showed up at the right time, gave them the job, got himself on the team etc. I think he was in on the plan from the early on. My current thinking is that Mal (the one who is really alive after her suicide kicked her out) or Miles or both hired Saito to do this job of getting Cobb out. He may even be an extractor like Cobb but I might be reaching a bit there an
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Lwaves, M4P, JSP + others - great thread reading, thx for all the speculation. I have not been able to see it again and am chomping at the bit - so I have no speculation, just some thoughts and more questions. 
- I loved the way the film started. Dropped down in the middle like that, a complete mystery as to what was going on, and then playing catch up the whole time. I spend too much time in a lot of movies thinking, "oiy, that makes no sense, why would..." I end up watching the film making instead of the film. I know that there were plenty of Hollywood types that said this movie would fail because it was too long and it asked too much of the audience. Hah! Turns out we actually have brains and we do like to use them. Seeing the press and reaction this movie is getting it's almost like we were starving for a movie like this. I think you're right Lwaves, that we'll be seeing rip offs, hopefully some will rip off that part.
- The top/totem. Can you trust anything in a dream? If it fell couldn't that just be a manipulation?
I keep thinking that the answer to the following question about the top would be huge in unraveling the ending, but I don't have the answer, only the question, (and it's not does the top stay up or fall):
Why would Cobb even spin the top at the end? What would be the point if he didn't even stop to watch? What was he thinking?
A. He knew it would fall, so he didn't have to watch.
B. He didn't care where he was because he was home and he had his children, Reality or Inception complete.
C. Doesn't matter - Nolan used it because he knew it would be a great visual to end the movie with.
Just found this while looking for the script...
Wikipedia says: "At the end of the credits, a small noise is heard, possibly indicating that Cobb's totem has fallen." Maybe someone just dropped their keys...
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Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
I know that there were plenty of Hollywood types that said this movie would fail because it was too long and it asked too much of the audience. Hah! Turns out we actually have brains and we do like to use them. Seeing the press and reaction this movie is getting it's almost like we were starving for a movie like this.
I like some some of the bigger blockbuster movies but look at what Hollywood gives us. Remake after remake like The A-Team or Clash Of The Titans. Then we get Transformers etc which are all heavy on the CGI and not much else. Then they give us repetitive romantic comedies which recycle the same plots with different actors and situations.
Ocassionally of course there are one or two movies that stand out from the dredge but they are few and far between.
When something comes along that is genuinely intelligent they would feel threatened. If the cinema going people found an appetite for this style of movie then Hollywood would be in trouble, unfortunately this probably won't happen.
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Why would Cobb even spin the top at the end? What would be the point if he didn't even stop to watch? What was he thinking?
I think he had doubts about where he was, after all he had taught himself not to trust anything. The same way that a lot of people are convinced that the kids at the end are in the same clothes and positions (I was one of them) Cobb may have had similar thoughts, so he spun the top.
But the kids then move and turn to him which is different from his dreams. At that point (to him) he has his proof and doesn't need the spinning top.
Nolan obviously ended the movie that way to get viewers guessing and thinking about what they'd seen. If it had been a clear ending that made things make sense then it wouldn't be as great a movie. This thread wouldn't be here either.
Like with the rest of the movie he was playing with us, making us work. It's why I still think there may be no definitive answer. It may have been designed to have multiple answers depending on what you see or don't see. I have my incomplete theory, M4P seems to on the same lines as me but we do differ on some points. I'm still not sure that either one of us is wrong on these points.
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Just found this while looking for the script...
I went looking for the script but had no luck. It was only a quick search though.
Did you find it? If yes then could you tell me where or could you send it to me?
"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall
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LWAVES: No, I didn't find a script other than from those free/commercial download sites but I just don't trust them.
I have to say that I'm not a fan of the ambiguous, "pick your own" ending. That seems kind of like lazy writing to me. I don't mind tough endings, actually love those, but if it turns out that's the case here I'll be royally pissed!
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Scattered points:
1. Top at the end. He spins it to see if this is a dream where he sees his kids. He looks at it to see the result. THEN the diversion - dad appears, go look at the kids, ignore the top, nothing going on here, move along now.
The thing that bothers me is who instigated the diversion? They had to plan ahead into Fisher's dream to make his diversion there, so who'd idea was it to divert Cobb here?
2. Don't let somebody else touch your totem. I think this causes a sort of corruption of the validity or truthfulness of the totem. The top is Mal's totem. So why is Cobb corrupting it? Why Saito?
I don't recall Cobb spinning the top at any level other than the level he thinks is reality - the highest level we see in the film. Am I wrong?
3. In each dream level the audience is omniscient - seeing everything, different players, all separated. At the level of "reality" we only seem to see what Cobb sees. Am I wrong? What does this tell us?
4. The kids don't age.
If the film is showing the reality level, then most of these views are from his memory - he hasn't been able to see them age.
If the film is not at the reality level but the last scene is, he's been dreaming for a year or more, but reality hasn't elapsed the same time - the kid's wouldn't have aged much, but that doesn't explain the same scene playing out - digging dirt at the same spot, etc. And then, where is Mal?
5. I don't get your originations of Saito. If the film is Cobb in a dream, either Saito is a construct of Cobb's or the architect, or he's inserted from the reality above. Mal is working with Saito in the Safe scene of the dream within a dream. But Mal and Cobb were pioneers in the reality above, how much time did Mal have to bring in all these players, including Saito, while Cobb only spent a year or so in the level he's at? How much time could have passed in reality?
6. I don't see the constructs as mindless zombies. Fisher's construct were lethal shooters, not highly predictable. Maybe fewer people got hit because in his successful experience his team didn't get many casualties. Also some non-real but also non-constructs are partial constructs with an imposter imitating somebody in Cobb's "reality" until Cobb fills in the details, like Fisher did with the Tom Berenger character (Brown?).
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Quote:Good point! I hadn't caught this, but it fits my ideas... I'll come back to it.
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Scattered points:
1. Top at the end. He spins it to see if this is a dream where he sees his kids. He looks at it to see the result. THEN the diversion - dad appears,
Quote:Another very good point. The only time I can recall him using the top out side "reality" is when he spins it up in Mal's dollhouse in limbo. And that was a flashback.
2. I don't recall Cobb spinning the top at any level other than the level he thinks is reality - the highest level we see in the film. Am I wrong?
Quote:I didn't really mean that, I just couldn't drag the word "construct" out of my brain. Seriously. It wouldn't come.
6. I don't see the constructs as mindless zombies.
Although, they were mindless in the sense of not being autonomous. They're not independent individuals, and so a bit zombie-ish. And, btw, they're damned convenient in the Hollywood sense because the good guys could shoot them without any moral ramifications.
But whatever, let me address to your points 3, 4, and 5. But I can tell I'm going to have to get into it a bit. Let me write something up and post separate.
And thank you for giving me something to do. Soooo bored today LOL!
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mal4prez’s story of inception, told from Saito’s POV. (This is purely fanwank, the usual disclaimers apply, and it should not be taken seriously by anyone not desperately trying to avoid unpleasant chores.)
Opening scene in Japanese restaurant, Saito says to himself:
OK, so there’s a guy in my dream trying to steal my secrets. He’s pretty good. Damn. I must stay calm. I’ve been trained for this. Lots of training. I can take this guy. So what am I supposed to do? Right, can’t just shoot myself, because I might be doped and end up going crazy in limbo. I’ve got to take control of this dream and find a way out. And I’ve got to make this Cobb guy stay here so my people can come back in and search his brain.
OK, that’s the beginnings of a plan. Gotta get to Cobb. So what do I know about him?
*rummages around in Cobb-brain, sees the obvious baggage*
A-ha! He has a spinny thing that’s very meaningful to him. Not sure why, but it's important, and he pretty much just handed it to me. He’s also got this memory of two kids. And what’s this I see? A dead wife. History there, much guilt... I can use this. Hmm... maybe I can get him take dream for reality forever if I can make him connect the dream to his home and kids. I can use the wife and the spinny top to push him along, if I can dig the truth out...
Damn, he’s got strong defensive walls. But here’s a good thing—he thinks his job with me failed, and he almost thinks he’s awake. He’s not entirely sure, and it won’t last, but it’s a start. I have to make him believe that this IS reality, and he has to think it’s purely his own idea. Ha! I’ll hire him to do to someone else what I want to do to him. He’ll show me how to perform an inception. This will also allow me to work with him, get close, win his trust.
So I can get really really close, I’ll take away his architect and supply another, one who’s cute and young and idealistic. She’ll work her way in and he’ll tell her everything. What she knows, I’ll know, and I can make use of it...
[And – CUT]
So, JSF, Cobb’s dad supplies the new architect. Dad also serves as the vital distraction at the end. Cute, huh?
As the plot continues: Saito learns the steps to inception and copies them. He gets in deep, learns Cobb’s secrets about Mal and the spinny top. There’s a powerful catharsis, then a positive reward.
So I don’t think Mal “brought in” Saito. In my fanwank, Mal isn’t real. Perhaps, no one in the whole damned movie is real except Cobb and Saito. The rest could be memories, forgeries, and manipulated constructs.
And just so we’re clear – this is such overcomplicated fanfiction. I don’t at all think it’s necessary. Just fun. 
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Ok - saw it again last night and I have a new theory: when someone coughs INCESSANTLY THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE FILM it's worse than talking. 
And: I'm back to thinking it plays better if its Reality/Dream layers are legit the way they are presented, that thinking "it's Saito turning the wheels" is fun, but it's over thinking.
Saito as auditioner works for me. Cobb's trickery of Mal and it's back firing and causing her death (he changed her totem to make her think she was in a dream so she jumps to kick herself into Reality (btw DiCaprio's anguish over her jumping was really well done imo), that works for me. Cobb not wanting to spend eternity in Limbo with the version of her constructed from his memories of her because they would be too perfect and too perfectly imperfect, that makes sense to me - it would only emphasize how dead she was and that leads back to his guilt at causing her to jump.
And Saito's motives are not clear enough to me. To observe Cobb is possible, but guys like him just hire people, and the more successful the better. It's not likely he would take what he learned and teach another crew.
But! I still have some questions about the straight read of it. There's a bunch of things at the very end when Cobb and Ariadne and Mal and Fischer (and soon to be Saito) are in Limbo:
First, before Limbo, in the concrete snow dream, when Mal shoots Fischer, Cobb says, "well that's it, mission over, we failed." He sticks to that even after Eames questions it. Finally, Ariadne convinces him to go further, into Limbo. That is puzzling unless you think maybe she's working for Saito, or unless she's a very dedicated team member. But it struck me as odd that it would be her to push them to the films conclusion. Was Miles in on it? Why was he in LA from Paris when Cobb landed?
- in Limbo, when all the kicks are starting to happen and limbo is crumbling, Ariadne pleads with Cobb to come and join her jumping off the balcony to kick them back up, but Cobb says no, "Saito will be down here as he's probably dead by now, I have to save him from Limbo." So that's the 2 of them from the beginning - but why is Cobb so much younger than Saito when they meet again?
- And I still don't get what kicked Cobb and old Saito out of Limbo. They have this moment of recognition across the table, then Saito reaches for the gun next to him, and then cut to Cobb & Saito back on the plane.
- How did Saito know that the mission was successful?
- and just in case anyone was wondering, I stayed through to the end of the credits and there wasn't any sound of the totem falling at any point - I think wiki got incepted with an internet rumor.
ETA - there were 2 sets of child actors in the credits, ages 3 and 5, so they are suppose to have aged.
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First off, this has been one of the better threads I've seen on this site in a long time.
There was a bit in an earlier post about audiences being starved for a movie with some serious depth to it. My reaction is that I am really surprised this movie has been so successful. I have a firmly held belief that most people don't want to do any heavy lifting when it comes to entertainment. Hence the success of mindless sequels and reality TV. Now on to the film itself.
I really like the idea that there is no clear cut answer to what was really going on. I'd prefer that no one in the inner circle divulges the truth as it would ruin these wonderful discussions.
So here's my theory. I think Mal is dead and Cobb is the one who was responsible. Cobb is also the mark but I don't think he was inside throughout the entire film. A partnership between Saito and Miles was brokered with dual intent: to find out exactly what happened to Mal and to learn how inception can be performed. So Ariadne is the architect, Miles is the dreamer, and Saito is the extractor. At the end Cobb is still inside. The similarity between his "real" children and the memorex version is too close for comfort. If I'm not mistaken the only other person to see his children during the film was Ariadne. I'm thinking that was the template she used in the final scene.
What's really stuck in my craw is exactly when they began working Cobb. Were there any players other than the three I mentioned or was everyone else drawn from his subconscious? If the other main characters were in on it this would be one hell of a conspiracy.
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We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.
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I know the brain speedup was necessary in Inception to turn the dream state into a 50 year jail sentence. It also makes zero-gee fistfights of fantasy a reality. But after Inception was over and my friends started a discussion, we realized that this key part of the story smells of absolute bullshit.
Cobb's mind speeds faster than normal in a dream. Either 20, 400, or 8000 times faster, depending on how deep he goes. Were that fastest speed possible, 15 minutes in a dream equals 2000 hours of thinking in the real world. Every movie scriptwriter in Hollywood who is on a deadline would be using Cobb's device to finish their screenplays early. Every writing room for TV shows would be equipped with "conference" beds so the group of writers could take power naps together. No one would ever need to work on Sunday to finish a script for a Monday morning meet with studio executives.
A writer's workday would start with a late afternoon lunch. Then they put on Cobb's dream machine and take a nap. Having finished another Castle script in their sleep, they go to happy hour for drinks. Then it is back to the studio to watch Nathan Fillion film exterior shots with what's-her-name, Nicki Heat.
That's a lovely vision of the future, but it's impossible. And by impossible, I don't mean very difficult, yet science will triumph in the future. I mean that so long as human brains are made of protein a 20-fold speedup will never happen, let alone a 8000-fold speedup. And now you know it, too.
The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two
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