SPOILERS!!! Discussion of Inception

POSTED BY: jewelstaitefan
UPDATED: Thursday, April 16, 2015 05:07
VIEWED: 15884
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One thing I never worked out, must do on next viewing: old Saito is spinning the top, which might be Cobb's totem, and was Mal's totem. Why?

If Cobb is the architect of the dream we see as the film, cannot he dream they will go a dream level deeper, and one of his constructs is the next level architect, making it merely a sub-dream of his creation?

If the film is Cobb's dream (or one he's in), which of the characters are his constructs, and which are those inserted in from the above level (working with Mal), and which are constructs of others, or of Mal's?

I'm not seeing the kids as being Cobb's totem. Maybe I'm more inclined towards sequels, but the dream of the film may be to remove him from the exciting version of his dream (much more addicting, more rush, etc) and back to "his kids" so that it might be the same level as the exciting dream, but now he's more able to get a kick from the more stable, predictable dream - remember one year is a day is a minute and the exciting dream is so unpredictable that Mal in the level above can't get in front of the quicker dream pace effectively.

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Originally posted by lwaves:

Seeing as you guys bought up the music in the film I thought I'd mention this now as I don't think anyone else has. Probably nothing to do with the plot, just a nice coincidence....

....but the music used in the earphones to wake them up was that French song about regret or no regrets by Edith Piaf. She was recently played by Marion Cotillard in a film who of course also plays Mal.
Something? Not something?

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There is an article out about Nolan and Zimmer concepting the score - Hans was not allowed to see the film until it was completed, with the score included. They both stated the Marion/Edith connection was not intentional, they hoped nobody thought it was a joke, and they adamantly kept that song since they felt it was integral.
So, not something.

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
CD is out already? Excellent. I'm going to look for it as soon as I get a chance. That and the new Starcraft.

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I've been buying music with Amazon's mp3 downloads, so not sure if it's in stores yet. $8.99 from Amazon. Highly recommend. There's some Vangelis and Phillip Glass in there, a lot of variety, moody and haunting as hell. 2 words: head phones. But watch you don't fall asleep!

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
One thing I never worked out, must do on next viewing: old Saito is spinning the top, which might be Cobb's totem, and was Mal's totem. Why?

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Can't say without seeing it again and understanding what he was saying. I found his voice/accent hard to understand sometimes plus the sound mix in our screening was crap as the surrounds were too loud compared to the front.

But I do have a point about totems that I thought of earlier:
The Chess Bishop: Expected behaviour is weighted at the bottom so a slight knock won't tip it over. The weight is removed making it top heavy and therefore a slight tap will knock it over.
The Poker Chip: Expected behaviour would be a normal looking poker chip. I believe it was forged so only the forger would know the errors.
The Dice: Expected behaviour is to randomly roll a 1-6 each time. This one is loaded so only one number will come up.
Then there's Mal's spinning top. Surely the expected behaviour would be to spin for a while and then fall. If it was someone else's dream this is what should happen. The unexpected would be for it to keep spinning or some other action. So does that mean when we see it spin and fall (the warehouse I think) it really isn't reality and is someone's dream? Could Cobb be mixing it up because he is using Mal's totem, not his own? Would he even know what Mal did differently to the top, I mean, it is supposed to be a secret from everyone but the totem creator. Is this a clear indication that it is a dream?

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If Cobb is the architect of the dream we see as the film, cannot he dream they will go a dream level deeper, and one of his constructs is the next level architect, making it merely a sub-dream of his creation?

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Really not sure. Except that one of the rules is that you can't go deeper than your own dream. Cobb breaks every other rule so maybe he breaks this as well or his mind made it up. This will definitely require a second viewing to answer clearly.

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If the film is Cobb's dream (or one he's in), which of the characters are his constructs, and which are those inserted in from the above level (working with Mal), and which are constructs of others, or of Mal's?

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I pretty much think with my own current ideas that everyone who plays a big enough part is real and they are all working to the same goal of getting Cobb out. The constructs in the dream worlds seem more like automated entities to me. They'll react to what you do etc but there is no actual connection. I mean do any of the constructs talk to the main cast or influence them aside from being chased/attacked like zombies when the dream world falls apart.

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I'm not seeing the kids as being Cobb's totem. Maybe I'm more inclined towards sequels, but the dream of the film may be to remove him from the exciting version of his dream (much more addicting, more rush, etc) and back to "his kids" so that it might be the same level as the exciting dream, but now he's more able to get a kick from the more stable, predictable dream - remember one year is a day is a minute and the exciting dream is so unpredictable that Mal in the level above can't get in front of the quicker dream pace effectively.

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I think I see what you're getting at but I'm not sure. You're saying Cobb's reality is the exciting part with dream extraction, shadowy corporations etc. They then go deeper and when they get back his reality has changed because now he can see his kids and hopefully get back to true reality with whatever the kick may be.
Right?

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They both stated the Marion/Edith connection was not intentional, they hoped nobody thought it was a joke, and they adamantly kept that song since they felt it was integral.
So, not something.

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Thanks for the confirmation, although I never really thought there was a connection in the movie. It was just to mention it but with a movie like this you couldn't be 100% sure without confirmation.



"The greatest in

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
I'm not seeing the kids as being Cobb's totem.

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I just read a blog that mentioned something about this and the idea came to me.
What if Cobb's real totem is his ring?
I believe he wears it at the beach in the beginning (he may even glance at it) but I can't say for sure if he's wearing it all the way through the movie. The blog I read pointed out that he wasn't always wearing it.

Any thoughts on that one?



"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

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Originally posted by lwaves:
What if Cobb's real totem is his ring?
I believe he wears it at the beach in the beginning (he may even glance at it) but I can't say for sure if he's wearing it all the way through the movie. The blog I read pointed out that he wasn't always wearing it.

Any thoughts on that one?

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Boy, do I have thoughts lwaves! I saw it a second time today followed by an hour on a train with a laptop. Hence two long posts to follow. Sorry, I’ve tried to shorten them but only end up adding more. So I’ll stop now.

Technical stuff

1. It has to be repeated: the score rocks. Really really rocks.

2. The tilty fight scene and zero-g fight scene—oh yeah. Could kvetch about how no one else’s inner ears picked up the free fall, but I’ll leave that one alone.

3. I don’t know the technical terms, but the lighting and colortone throughout the film were right on. It wasn’t overdone with varying hues to give it that “dreamy” feel, or all toned brown or all toned blue or whatever. That was nice when the Matrix made the fake world greenish and reality blueish, but imho the shading is overdone these days. In this film, if reality and the dreams had been different in tone, much would have been lost. I think they played it right on, not telling what was real and what wasn’t, but making us decide for ourselves.

OK – plot things.

4. The wedding ring. Cobb has it on at the beginning, when he’s on the beach, then when he’s eating rice and talking to old Saito. But as soon as the scene cuts back to young Saito (a very sudden cut which I’ll return to) the ring is clearly gone. The only other scene where I saw it on Cobb’s hand was when the girl joined him in his elevator/memory dream. The ring showed prominently when one of them was saying that this was HIS dream, a place HE built. Which suggests that the first dream, the talk with old Saito, was also a place of his own construction.

Mal often wears the ring, but I never saw Cobb wearing it other than those two times. Most scenes, he clearly does not have it on.

I especially watched for it at the end. I definitely noted that his left hand wasn’t shown from the time he woke on the plane until the ending. I watched carefully—hand not shown. I tried to watch during the second encounter with old Saito, and I don’t think his left hand was shown there either. I’m not entirely sure. Damned hard to focus on details during such a good movie. But if I’m right, I have to think that the movie makers did this deliberately – didn’t show the hand. Again, like with the colortone, they ain’t giving shit away!

5.Reality/Dream hints. At the university in Paris, Cobb’s dad begs him to return to reality. In the opium-den-looking basement in Mombasa, the old guy tells Cobb that the addicts can’t tell dream from reality, but who is he (Cobb) to judge? When Cobb gets home, those damn kids are in exactly the same position, wearing the same clothes(?) as his memory, and they haven’t aged at all. I get the impression he’s been in exile for some time. At least a year. Kids grow fast at that age. Why haven’t they changed?

6. The spinny top. Cobb uses the spinny top to implant an idea in Mal. I assume that she opened her safe, saw it still spinning, and then figured out that she was not in reality. Cobb later uses it with the same rules—if it falls over, he knows he’s awake and safely in the “reality” layer.

But should he be trusting this? It wasn’t his totem, it was someone else’s. He used it for inception with Mal. Might someone else be using it for inception with him? To convince him that returning home to his children is indeed returning to reality? Might someone be trying to do an inception on him?

7. Back to that cut from old Saito to young Saito. The cut includes many changes besides Saito’s age—Cobb is cleaned up, there’s suddenly other people in the room, the conversation is clearly a continuation, the restaurant is full, it’s nighttime… If this was a normal movie, I would take this to mean that the whole thing is a flashback. That’s the us

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Disclaimer: like Firefly and most works of genius, this movie is deliciously open to many interpretations. I’ve found one I like, but by no means am I suggesting that mine is the only one.

But I really like it.

I think the whole movie is a battle between Saito and Cobb. Saito is trying to convince Cobb that the top level shown in the movie, the one presented as reality, is reality. (But it’s not!) Saito wins in the end by convincing Cobb to stay in that top level, so he stays asleep while Saito can wake up and protect himself.

Why does this make sense? Well,

- Saito is an antagonist at the beginning. By the end, he’s a trusted friend who convinces Cobb to make a decision.

- The decision involved going deep into layers of Cobb’s psyche. Saito was present throughout, to learn Cobb’s secrets and also to see how Cobb would do an inception on someone else. Saito learned those steps and did exactly the same to Cobb.

- A single idea was implanted and slowly developed in Cobb: Being with your children at home in the US is reality. Cobb doubted this throughout, but came to acceptance when he was very, very deep down.

- Many of the encounters that made Cobb doubt reality/dream could have been his subconscious trying to warn him about Saito's manipulation. This includes his dad, the opium den guy, Mal, the girl on the team (can't remember the name)...

- Cobb’s decision was made through positive reinforcement, exactly what Cobb insisted they use on the rich guy. Catharsis was the word.

- Saito was the only one seriously hurt because he was the primary invader into Cobb’s dream.

- Saito put the final nail in the coffin durig the last scene at the restaurant. He agrees with Cobb that when they leave limbo they’ll be back in reality, and Cobb believes this to be his own idea. Inception complete!

- Another: Saito touches Cobb's totem, right at the beginning, before the cut in time. Wouldn't that give him some kind of control over it? Control over the spinny top is no small thing in this movie!

And one final: we never actually see Saito and Cobb get shot. Like a dream, Cobb makes the decision, then it's done. But the intermediate steps never happen.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

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Originally posted by mal4prez:
this movie is deliciously open to many interpretations

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This may be the truest thing said about the movie. What if the 'genius' of the movie is that there is evidence to support X number of theories but no definitive answer to any one of them. So each viewer takes away what they want from it. This would account for all the folks that just see the movie as a linear action movie set across dream levels and also those, like ourselves, that see something deeper. No group is wrong it's just what each got from it, much like a dream interpretation. Unless Nolan comes out and actually says what it all means (highly unlikely) then we may never know for certain.

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4. The wedding ring. Cobb has it on at the beginning, when he’s on the beach, then when he’s eating rice and talking to old Saito.
The only other scene where I saw it on Cobb’s hand was when the girl joined him in his elevator/memory dream.
The ring showed prominently when one of them was saying that this was HIS dream, a place HE built.
Mal often wears the ring, but I never saw Cobb wearing it other than those two times. Most scenes, he clearly does not have it on.
I have to think that the movie makers did this deliberately – didn’t show the hand.

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Cheers for some kind of clarification. I still don't know myself what I feel is the significance of it but I do now remember that you don't see his left hand a lot of the time.

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When Cobb gets home, those damn kids are in exactly the same position, wearing the same clothes(?) as his memory.

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Overnight I 'obtained' a rough copy of the movie just to see certain bits, including this one.
In the first scene the boy is crouched wearing a plaid shirt (can't tell the colour) and the girl runs up to him wearing an orange(?) dress.
When Cobb talks to them on the phone it is the same set up but with a slightly different view, although this is most likely a genuine memory.
When Cobb and Ariadne are in the elevator they got to the beach/holiday scene (different set up and clothes but it is a memory so that makes sense) and then they go to the house and it is the same set up, same clothes.
But at the end they both start crouched, the boy is in front this time, wearing a plaid shirt, but most importantly I think is that the girl has a different orange dress with a white t-shirt underneath (you can see the shirt sleeves and straps of the dress).
So they are not the same as his memory, like we thought. This leads me to believe that it is someone elses dream and that when it cuts to black he wakes up to the proper reality.

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6. The spinny top. Cobb uses the spinny top to implant an idea in Mal. I assume that she opened her safe, saw it still spinning, and then figured out that she was not in reality. Cobb later uses it with the same rules—if it falls over, he knows he’s awake and safely in the “reality” layer.

But should he be trusting this? It wasn’t his totem, it was someone else’s. He used it for inception with Mal. Might someone else be using it for inception with him? To convince him that returning home to his children is indeed returning to reality? Might someone be trying to do an inception on him?

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This is a point I tried to illustrate in my other post about the expected behaviour of the totems. The expected behaviour of the top is to spin and then fall. To me if it does this then he's not in true reality but Cobb seems blind to this or genuinely doesn't know what Mal altered on her totem. You can't have a spinning top that keeps spinning indefinitely. If you're in someone's dream then they would expect it to fall, so it would. I don't know what the true reality version would be. Maybe it's weighted/designed to not spin at all or very badly.
To push this point further if I was in your dream (you have control) and I held up a large steel ball bearing and dropped it then the expected behaviour, from your point of view, would be for it to fall heavily to the ground with no bounc

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Originally posted by lwaves:
Cheers for some kind of clarification. I still don't know myself what I feel is the significance of it but I do now remember that you don't see his left hand a lot of the time.

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The shots where you do see the ring - on Cobb or on Mal - are very specifically done. The ring is clearly placed in the frame. Movie makers don't do this stuff by accident. At least, not this caliber of movie maker! I think it means something, though I'm not sure what.

Re the kids: good to know about the clothes. So the exact details vary but the general style and color stays the same, and the boy is generally sitting, digging, the girl standing beside him. This is still the case when Cobb goes home.

And don't forget that age thing. Not only are the kids exactly the same age, but the season is the same, the angle and color of the sunlight, the grass and trees. Either he's been gone a few months tops, or the place isn't real.

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So they are not the same as his memory, like we thought. This leads me to believe that it is someone elses dream and that when it cuts to black he wakes up to the proper reality.

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Like cuts to black end of movie? I took it to be just the end of the movie. Interesting thought though, that he woke up.

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This is a point I tried to illustrate in my other post about the expected behaviour of the totems.

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I disagree. You're saying:

if it doesn't fall: Cobb's in his own dream
it if falls: Cobb's in someone else's dream

But how about when it falls in reality? Which it would do. Must he then take reality to be someone else's dream?

See, I understand it quite differently - I think the totem is a reality detector, not a dreamer ID'er. Hey look - there's wikipedia about this movie already! Totem is defined as: "an individualized object carried by extractors in order to tell when they are dreaming. Cobb's own totem is his wife's: a spinning top. If the top spins indefinitely, Cobb knows he is in a dream; if it slows down and eventually stops, in accordance with the laws of physics, then he is not."

The times Cobb gets most stressed over the spinner in when he's in "reality," when he sees Mal and so isn't sure if he's really awake. So he spins the top - if he's dreaming, it will spin forever. In the movie's "reality", it falls. So he believes himself to be awake.

Hence the ending - if it falls he's awake. And it seems about to....

The thing I've theorized is that maybe the spinner lies. Saito did touch it, after all. (I know this is a pretty thin fanwank, but still....)

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As for the differences between the Cobb and Saito meetings at the beginning and the end I kind of take it that at the start Cobb was in Saitos dream trying to get the location of the secret (hidden in a safe I think) so that world would be Saito's world.

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That's after the cut to young Saito. Watch it again when you get a chance - much shifts when we go to young Saito. It could be an entirely different dream. Could be a flashback. I'm not sure what the difference is, but there is a difference. The ring goes away, for one...

But after, when they're talking about the cracking the safe, it's Arthur's dream. Mal says something to that effect.

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At the end Saito 'dies' first and enters limbo a good while before Cobb, which would explain the age difference. It is Saitos world again because he's the one that there, Cobb is the guest or whatever.

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Not so - apparently Limbo belongs to no one. It's a "shared" level, whatever that means. Check out the figures in the other Inception thread. (I think this is primarily a way of explaining why there are no random people in Limbo to come after the non-dreamers. It's the only way Cobb and Mal could spend years there without being hunted by each other's subconsciousness.)

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So to me Saito plants the idea originally in Cobb that it is possible to go home, that he has a way. This grows over the job in Cobbs mind. Cobb then uses that idea to persuade Saito of the same possibility that he can go bac

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