The Great Jayne Debate!
POSTED BY: kef
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 4, 2002 17:05
VIEWED: 37090
PAGE 9 of 14
I have to say - after re-viewing 'Ariel,' I don't think Jayne re-thought his betrayel or anything.
He betrayed the Tams, and when he was caught by the feds too, his only thought turned to escape. He didn't relent - he just abandoned it.
I didn't feel like he had a change of heart during Simon's examination of River. He wanted to get them out and to the feds as quickly as he could so he could get his reward.
And once caught, he just wanted out. Why did he want to go one way when Simon & River wanted to go the other? Because he knew the way. So what that there were 6 feds - he knew that (and felt they could take them).
So there ya go. I'm throwing my hat into the "Jayne didn't un-betray the Tams" ring.
-F
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Quote:Well, obviously, by the end when he's fighting with them and running with them (even when they go the opposite direction from the one he 'd rather go), he had unbetrayed them. It's just an issue of when/where/why.
So there ya go. I'm throwing my hat into the "Jayne didn't un-betray the Tams" ring.
I really don't get how there can be such a dispute here over something so simple and obvious. There's nothing to debate, because one simple fact makes it absolutely clear; that fact has already been pointed out, but one side here has simply ignored it while looking for ways to conclude the opposite of the obvious...
The Feds already effectively had them. Jayne had arranged this ahead of time. They were in the Feds' own place and the Feds knew where to look for them. According to the original plan, they'd be sitting ducks for 20 or more minutes and then follow a very narrowly prescribed route out. That's practically a definition of "easy pickings". Jayne didn't need to do anything to bring about their capture. The inevitable course of events was already leading straight to that. And the only possible reason for Jayne to suddenly start taking rushed, drastic action is to CHANGE that course of events, and thus their inevitable outcome...
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Quote:Delvo, we didn't go LOOKING for for ways to conclude the "opposite of the obvious." It's the way we saw it in the first place. If your version was SO obvious, why did so many of us not see it? What was "obvious" to us was that Jayne didn't do what you claim. Why ARE we debating this if your version is so obvious? Because it's NOT OBVIOUS.
Originally posted by Delvo:
I really don't get how there can be such a dispute here over something so simple and obvious. There's nothing to debate, because one simple fact makes it absolutely clear; that fact has already been pointed out, but one side here has simply ignored it while looking for ways to conclude the opposite of the obvious...
Quote:If this is so, then they were sitting ducks for longer than 20 minutes. They were sitting ducks from the time Jayne called the Fed officer on the vid screen. Why didn't the Feds swoop down on them while they were still in the morgue? Or while they were on the way to the diagnosis room? Or while Simon was performing the diagnostic?
The Feds already effectively had them. Jayne had arranged this ahead of time. They were in the Feds' own place and the Feds knew where to look for them. According to the original plan, they'd be sitting ducks for 20 or more minutes and then follow a very narrowly prescribed route out.
I know the answer - because they needed to show us, the audience, River's diagnostic. But if the Feds knew where they were and could have grabbed them anytime, that just leaves a big fat plot hole in Jose Molina's script.
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Quote:Oh come on now. Everybody knows it can take a several minutes for the security guys to get from where they're stationed to where they need to go. And if they weren't ready quickly enough for Jayne, again, RUSHING THEM OUT COULD NOT POSSIBLY SERVE ANY PURPOSE, because if the security team's not set up and ready to get them, then they're just not set up and ready to get them. So again, to follow through with betraying them, all Jayne had to do was wait for the inevitable events he'd already set in motion before. Suddenly doing something other than that means trying to change the course he was on!
if the Feds knew where they were and could have grabbed them anytime, that just leaves a big fat plot hole in Jose Molina's script.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Delvo:
So again, to follow through with betraying them, all Jayne had to do was wait for the inevitable events he'd already set in motion before. Suddenly doing something other than that means trying to change the course he was on!
I went back and watched this again. This is what I see:
1) The Tams are unconscious - Jayne takes the opportunity to slip out of the morgue and make his call to the Feds, setting the time and place of the handover (assumption: this needed to be earlier than the meeting planned with Mal et al so that the deed is done before time to head back to the transport).
2) The Tams wake up, they go to the imager, and Jayne announces that they need to leave earlier than planned(assumption: last minute announcement so as not to allow Simon thinking time)
3) They go out, the Feds capture them, and a stunned Jayne finds out he's going to get coal in his stocking.
Try as I may, I can't get anything else out of that scene.
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Quote:because if the security team's not set up and ready to get them Why would the security team NOT be ready?? Jayne first contacted the Feds before they even entered the hospital! So they (the Feds) knew they were coming. They had that whole time to prepare and be ready for Jayne to contact them once inside.
Originally posted by Delvo:
Oh come on now. Everybody knows it can take a several minutes for the security guys to get from where they're stationed to where they need to go. And if they weren't ready quickly enough for Jayne, again, RUSHING THEM OUT COULD NOT POSSIBLY SERVE ANY PURPOSE, because if the security team's not set up and ready to get them, then they're just not set up and ready to get them. So again, to follow through with betraying them, all Jayne had to do was wait for the inevitable events he'd already set in motion before. Suddenly doing something other than that means trying to change the course he was on!
By your theory the Feds were coming to grab them in the diagnostic room. Is that correct? How did the Feds know they were going to be in the diagnostic room? We know Jayne didn't say anything about location to the Fed officer the second time he called him. Therefore he must have told him the first time he called (before they entered the hospital) that the the Tams would be going to the diagnostic room. So why wouldn't the Feds simply have been waiting there for them?
Maybe because the Feds didn't know exactly when the Tams would be entering the hospital? Okay. But are you then saying that it would've taken the Feds significantly longer to get to the diagnostic room (after Jayne called the second time and told the Fed guy "we're in") than it took Jayne and the Tams to get to the diagnostic room from the morgue? Considering that Simon STILL had time after getting there to perform River's scan? How freakin' slow are these Feds?
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Quote:But getting the Feds to the Tams or the Tams to the Feds does not require leaving early or changing the route. They're already there, and already surrounded by Feds in a facility where Alliance officials control the locks on the doors. The trap can be sprung at any time, in the room or along their planned exit route. And even if they'd needed to leave early for this to work even though they were already trapped, Jayne would have had no reason to WAIT the few minutes that he DID.
1) The Tams are unconscious - Jayne takes the opportunity to slip out of the morgue and make his call to the Feds, setting the time and place of the handover (assumption: this needed to be earlier than the meeting planned with Mal et al so that the deed is done before time to head back to the transport).
Also, Jayne has no reason at all to be concerned one way or the other about when Mal and the others are leaving or how they might react to his betrayal, because once he's got his ree-ward, he's not going to be with them anymore anyway. He can just wait for them to do whatever they're going to do and leave (or be taken away by Feds), while he has a snack in the 19th-floor cafeteria. Avoidance of Mal is just not an issue.
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When I mentioned security forces not being ready yet, I had only brought it up because it seemed that you or someone else might have been thinking that Jayne was rushing them out because he was getting impatient; but that's invalid because rushing the Tams doesn't rush anybody else.
Quote:To answer the initial question: Incorrect. I'm not specifying when and where they were supposed to get them. The point is that this is an Alliance facility swarming with Alliance officials. They can arrest them in that room, on the way out, in a bathroom, wherever and whenever. Whether the arrest was supposed to be made in the room or on the way out doesn't matter; Jayne dosen't need to alter the team's plan at all in order to get the Tams caught when they're already this deep in enemy territory. What's so difficult about this?
By your theory the Feds were coming to grab them in the diagnostic room. Is that correct? How did the Feds know they were going to be in the diagnostic room? We know Jayne didn't say anything about location to the Fed officer the second time he called him. Therefore he must have told him the first time he called (before they entered the hospital) that the the Tams would be going to the diagnostic room. So why wouldn't the Feds simply have been waiting there for them?
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Oops! Hi Delvo! This message was to Kef...
The feds are very likely NOT slow at all... but setting it up so that there can be a clandestined payoff, and Jayne gets away takes a little work. There are ONLY two people in on the betrayal, Jayne and his contact. His contact (according to my theory) is still looking to be cooperative up till the moment he sees that Jayne backed out (presumably by Jayne not being where he's supposed to be).
One more thought for those who don't want to credit Jayne with any human decency... we don't really have to (I just think that he does have some, and that it shows up in the occassional odd moment).
Jayne could have seen what they did to River and got the creeps. He could have simply decided that he didn't want ANY contact with those Feds at all, and he could have realized that he made a bad deal. So far, I have three reasons for Jayne to commit the un-betrayal:
1. Conscience - he just couldn't do it when he saw what happened to River (oh, and Kef? I think I'm saying something slightly different than what you said before about Jayne - its not that he's so impressed by new medical knowledge of River's condition - it's that he's seeing the reality of it for the first time. For all Jayne knows, River could be a kook all on her own, and Simon just thinks the alliance did that. Or, Jayne could know they did SOMETHING to her, but knowing that they cut open her head and sliced up her brain is a bit more specific. In any event - it's the fact that it's real now, not that it's new information, and that realism is what I meant by "in Jayne's face," not that you could see a particular change of expression on his face. Sorry for the confusion.)
2. Jayne realizes that creepy people who slice up other people's brains are not people you want to chance running into, much less purposely meet up with them.
3. Jayne realizes that creepy people who slice up other people's BRAINS would have no qualms double-dealing.
And mind you... all three of those reasons could be true at the same time.
QT
QueenTiye, Companion Academy, class of 2006
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Quote:Yeah I thought of that right after I posted the last one.
Originally posted by Delvo:
To answer the initial question: Incorrect. I'm not specifying when and where they were supposed to get them. The point is that this is an Alliance facility swarming with Alliance officials. They can arrest them in that room, on the way out, in a bathroom, wherever and whenever. Whether the arrest was supposed to be made in the room or on the way out doesn't matter; Jayne dosen't need to alter the team's plan at all in order to get the Tams caught when they're already this deep in enemy territory. What's so difficult about this?
So let's say that maybe Jayne didn't know when or where the Feds planned to grab the Tams. He left that up to them. So he tried to rush the Tams out of the HOSPITAL before the Feds swooped down. It still doesn't explain why it took the Feds SO LONG to swoop down after Jayne called to say "we're in", considering that they knew the Tams were coming before they even entered the hospital, and thus had plenty of time to prepare.
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