SPOILERS!!! Discussion of Inception
POSTED BY: jewelstaitefan
UPDATED: Thursday, April 16, 2015 05:07
VIEWED: 15884
PAGE 1 of 8
This is intended to be a discussion of various points, possibilites, liklihoods of the story in Inception.
Great amounts of Spoilers and cioncept Spoilers are expected to follow.
If you have not seen the film, it is suggested you read no futher for now.
If you are planning to see the film again to see what else you can conjure, it is suggested you read no futher unless you want your conjuring curve cranked up.
Before that, did anybody think Leonardo was just channeling Ray Liotta?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
..
Ok.
1. Do you think the "reality" level that Cobb assumes is really reality, or a dream? What reasons or indications do you have for this?
1a. If a dream, whose dream do you think it is? What reasons or indications do you have for this?
1b. Also if a dream, why do you think he did not return to actual reality?
2. In the level that Cobb is at at the end of the film, who is the architect of that level?
2a. If he is, why does his mind rebel at the illusion, seeking confirmation of his return to the level he thinks of a reality? And who is it that is inserting the diversion to take him away from "his" totem?
2b. Do you think this level is the one he considers to be "reality" level?
3. The Mal that appears in the levels beneath what Cobb considers reality, do you think all of them are constructs from his mind, or are some of them Mal herself, inserting from the level above him?
3a. If so, what is her purpose? To get Cobb to change levels because he is spending too much time in a dream? Or to kick him out of the abyss loop (I forgot the term limbo)?
3b. Also if so, what is Mal's totem now? What was Cobb's totem when Mal used the thumbtack/top? What is Cobb's totem at the level above what he considers to be "reality" in the film?
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Points for or against.
1b. Mal's - Caine's character says Cobb is trying to steal "another" of his brightest students - who was the previous one if not Mal?
Cobb's - because he is in his own constructed (but self-denies it) level, he cannot do another level as architect. He can only do the dream/memory prison.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Having thought about this a little more (i.e. a hell of a lot) since seeing it last night I'm starting to think that there is no direct answer, but there may be more than one depending on what you see, what you don't see, what you want from it etc etc.
But if I start typing all my thoughts on this I won't stop so I'll just put down some ideas and thoughts and see how they fit. Not saying I believe any of them but here they are.
1. You see the characters wake up easily from what we/Cobb preceive to be the first dream level. If it was deeper it would be harder to wake up. This suggests that it is reality.
2. If the whole thing is in someones dream and they can't go deeper than their dream it could only be Miles or the young guy on the train during the initial extraction. He never appears again (I don't think so anyway) which is kind of odd and Miles never goes into a dream so it's either them or some unseen character (which would be a cheat and unlike Nolan).
3. Everytime Cobb sees his kids they are in the same positions and situation - playing in the garden. When Cobb gets to 'reality' and gets home they are in exactly the same state, just like all the dream versions and his memory of when he originally left. If it was reality then it's one hell of a coincidence. This indicates that it may not be real.
4. Cobb states to Ariadne that you never know how you get anywhere in a dream, you're just there. If the ending is a dream then why would we see him get off the plane, walk through the airport and be picked up by Miles. Surely he'd just appear there at the house. Also this discounts the idea that he's stuck in limbo because if he was Miles wouldn't be there. Miles wasn't involved in the dream sharing and if it is all Miles's dream then he couldn't get that low.
5. Cobb may be suffering from similar symptoms as Mal before she died. All he wants is his kids back but his guilt is eating him up, forcing it's way into dreams and may eventually destroy him. Not only was Mal's death his fault but he's also imprisoned her in his memories and she wants Cobb to join him and be in limbo together. Miles may just want to give his grandkids their dad back so he, and maybe the others, construct this elaborate maze/puzzle that forces Cobb to confront what he did and allow himself to let go. It was Miles after all that suggested Ariadne as the architect, the person who would ultimately get Cobb to face his demons. Would the original architect have done that?
6. I'm convinced that the sound of the spinning top changed at the end and you do see a slight wobble. This is a strong indicator that he's in reality.
My current fave idea is that we what think of as reality in the film actually is reality. The easy option I guess. But when I've seen it more times I think this idea may change quite a bit.
"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I decided to answer your questions but read my above post for further info.
1. Do you think the "reality" level that Cobb assumes is really reality, or a dream? What reasons or indications do you have for this?
Currently I think it's reality. The spinning top wobbles and changes sound instead of staying completely true.
1a. If a dream, whose dream do you think it is? What reasons or indications do you have for this?
Miles or the young guy on the train (see my other post).
1b. Also if a dream, why do you think he did not return to actual reality?
Mal wasn't enough to keep him in limbo, possibly because of what happened to her (he knew she died) but his kids were fine in his version of reality. In the dream levels he avoided seeing their faces but when he does see them at the end it is enough to break his need for his totem. At that point he effectively doesn't care, he just wants his kids.
2. In the level that Cobb is at at the end of the film, who is the architect of that level?
If it's real then no one. If it's a dream then my money is on Miles. Everyone else goes at least one level deeper so it can't be them.
2a. If he is, why does his mind rebel at the illusion, seeking confirmation of his return to the level he thinks of a reality? And who is it that is inserting the diversion to take him away from "his" totem?
He seeks confirmation because he knows that what you see can't be trusted. His mind is diverted by finally allowing himself to see his kids faces. The kids are the diversion and either he puts them there or Miles does if it isn't real.
2b. Do you think this level is the one he considers to be "reality" level?
He definitely does and it's one of the things that makes him ignore his totem. He believes he's out. In dreams he never saw his kids or didn't allow himself to see them. When he does see them it's a change from the norm hinting at it being real. Not seeing his kids faces may also have been a totem for him, something only he knew.
3. The Mal that appears in the levels beneath what Cobb considers reality, do you think all of them are constructs from his mind, or are some of them Mal herself, inserting from the level above him?
Cobb says you don't use memories to construct, although he and Mal did in the past. This to me says that memories are very powerful. They can break into dreams or in Cobbs case his guilt brings them in.
3a. If so, what is her purpose? To get Cobb to change levels because he is spending too much time in a dream? Or to kick him out of the abyss loop (I forgot the term)?
No. Her purpose is to make Cobb keep his promise to her, to be together forever. She wants to trap him there like he's imprisoned her and she knows that seeing his kids will do it.
3b. Also if so, what is Mal's totem now? What was Cobb's totem when Mal used the thumbtack/top? What is Cobb's totem at the level above what he considers to be "reality" in the film?
Mal's dead and is just a memory, she doesn't need a totem - unless she thinks she is real - I'm not too sure on that one.
We don't know what Cobb's original totem was and it probably doesn't matter.
Cobb doesn't think there is a level above what he considers reality but if he did it would still be the spinning top, it's always the same totem that's the point of it. When he comes back from his first share with Ariadne the top falls, indicating reality. When he spins it at the end he doesn't wait to find out. Of course when he comes back into that room later he will see it still spinning or laying on its side but that's something we will never know.
Actually now I've typed all that I am completely convinced that what is considered reality is definitely reality. I'm still not 100% on the ending version but reality as we know it before the plane journey is definitely reality.
"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Love this discussion thread already. After my friends and I saw this movie we spent the next couple hours discussing it. So here we go...
1. Personally, I think the level Cobb perceives to be reality is reality. This is supported by the top wobbling at the end, (and also because as a movie-goer, you want to see the happy ending). However because the ending of the film is intentionally left ambiguous, it is possible that the entire scenario is a dream. There's plenty of evidence for both, but for the sake of argument, I will say that all that happened was a dream.
1a. The short answer here is that it is Cobb's dream, but let's backtrack and look at the possibilities:
A. The entire movie is a dream. This means that Mal is right and that the level that Cobb perceives as reality is another level of the shared dream that he and Mal created. This is evidenced by the very nature of the film itself. Cobb tells Ariadne that in the dream world you don't remember how exactly you got there. The film is like this by way of it's cuts. I can't exactly remember, but I can't think of many shots that show Cobb or his Cohorts transitioning from place to place. When a scene starts we are always put into the middle of the action. For instance, the warehouse. We never see the exterior of the warehouse (at least I don't think so), how the characters get there, or where it is in relation to other locations. We just see a person enter or the scene opens with someone talking. Of course this can also be attributed to the editing and that cuts such as these occur in just about every Hollywood movie, but in the case of Inception, the cuts can (and, if you think the entire film is a dream, do) reinforce the dream world status of what Cobb perceives as reality.
B. The film becomes a dream after Yusuf's introduction. In this scenario, the dream is Cobb's dream. When Cobb visits Yusuf, the guy who makes the sedatives, we get a scene of the sedative being tested on Cobb. Therefore, the entire film after this point could be a dream. Before this sequence, we see how Cobb's totem works (if it remains spinning, you are still in the dream, if it falls, then you are in reality). He demonstrates this to Ariadne, and it falls. After the scene at Yusuf's, the top is never shown to fall again, meaning that the entire inception heist on Fischer is a dream of Cobb's. This could be some sort of wish fulfillment thing as Cobb wants to be reunited with his children and come to terms with the loss of his wife, both of which happen in the course of the heist. This also means that Cobb would be like one of the people shown at Yusuf's who use the dream machine to escape reality. I believe it is mentioned that for those people, dream and reality are reversed. The same happens to Cobb as he gets everything he could have possibly wished for be the end of the film and accepts it as reality and not as the dream.
1b. Cobb explains the dangers of using reality in creating the dream world, but clearly he defies his rule. In his dream within his mind containing the elevator (that Ariadne enters into), we see several recreations in the dream world of things that actually happened. His home, his children, and most prominently, the scene of his wife's suicide. We see dream recreations of reality through the entire film, which Cobb consistently rejects, that is until he's put into a position where it is plausible to believe the dream recreations of reality: He completes the heist, Saito makes the call, and he can return home. This raises a possibility that I hadn't considered before. (I am thinking and typing here at the same time). Perhaps Cobb is undergoing Inception. Cobb mentions that he is in an unsavory line of work. Perhaps an enemy of Cobb's, one mentioned in the film, uses Saito to perform inception on Cobb. The inception here would be to make Cobb believe that he is in reality when he is in fact in a dream. If Cobb were to remain in a dream, asleep, he would be removed from a line of work that we know he's good at, making way fo
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I've spent more time considering the "inception-being-performed-on-Cobb-theory" and I think that's my leading theory. I'm seeing it again tomorrow, so we'll see if my theory holds up when I watch it again.
Also if you like Inception, I would highly recommend Satoshi Kon's Paprika. It's a Japanese anime film that deals with the intersection of dreams and reality in a similar way that Inception does.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
This is strange for me because I'm surprised at myself for not thinking that at least part of the movie could be Cobb being 'incepted'.
I really like that idea but it will require more thought and a further viewing. If it has any truth to it the it must have been at Yusuf's, to have the whole movie be Cobbs inecption is too much of a cheat. Either way it can't be Cobb's dream. He must always be in someone else's because the rules establish that you can't go deeper than your own dream. If the whole movie is Cobb's dream then he wouldn't be able to go deeper than what we consider reality. At Yusuf's he must also be in someones dream for the same reasons.
Of course this would mean that if he is still dreaming or in limbo at the end then the spinning top wouldn't fall.
I don't know if this plays out right but if he is like the people in the beds, where dreams have become reality and reality is like a dream, then someone may be helping him. If he is lost to that world, like Mal was, they may effectively be giving him peace, giving him a puzzle which when solved will provide him the closure that he couldn't get on his own. A puzzle that allows him to be with his kids as the prize. I still say that if anyone is behind it all it would be Miles. The corporation he was working for originally are too faceless and non-descript. They don't really have any impact on the film. They may not even be real.
I really need to see this again to be better clarification.
"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Some points.
Cobb breaks every rule, and also pioneers the frontier, so saying he can't do something in this realm seems weak.
You cannot - cannot - use somebody else's totem. That he uses the one belonging to Mal brings suspicion upon his "reality".
In the end scenes, he goes in limbo, never wakes from the intermediate dreams, knows the financier is dead at a lower level (can't get him to his kids, will be arrested upon landing), jumps to the goal scene of awaking from the highest-up dream he recognizes, and when he sees his kids and spins the totem, grampa is the one who distracts him from the forever spinning top.
My sense of Cobb is not being incepted, but still in the dream he started with Mal, and like the addicts, won't return to reality where Mal is waiting and growing old alone (if he's in limbo before the film starts).
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Cobb being incepted - that's a good one! I like that one a lot. Maybe the audience was being incepted?!? 
1 thing I can't get away from, and it supports the "Cobb was being Incepted" theory (and by Saito) was that the bad guys in the various levels let off a couple thousand rounds and no one was hit (except Saito). The odds of missing that much seem far greater than that they were just really bad shots, these are suppose to be trained security people after all. Compare that with the scene in the movie's reality level when Cobb runs from the hit men after seeing the forger in Mombassa. They shot at him a million times and yet he was never hit. And in an almost dream like conclusion to the sequence Saito just happens to show up in a car and get him away.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I saw Inception Tuesday and haven't thought it through fully, so I'm not going to dig into this discussion quite yet. Need to see the movie again. Though I will say that I felt all through the movie that the "reality" level was suspect. The children and the wife seemed such a perfect motivator. I felt like someone was playing him. Haven't decided who or why. I doubt I'll figure it out - I suspect the movie intentionally leaves the reality/dream question unanswered, which I like. Tidy endings are boring.
But the parting shot of the kids, the way it's a perfect echo of his dream finally finishing the scene that's haunted him, and the top that doesn't stop spinning, certainly suggests something ain't right in reality land...
Oops. Didn't mean to discuss yet. Just wanted to add something else - I absolutely loved the score. The first thing I said after the movie: Whoa. Nice score. And here's a cool tidbit:
http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/28/hans-zimmer-extracts-the-
secrets-of-the-inception-score/
-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME