A well armed society is a polite one.

POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Monday, August 10, 2026 15:59
VIEWED: 11512
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BYTEMITE

Friday, July 23, 2010 8:13 PM

Kirk's explanation may have some basis in reality, though I point out the issue brought up in his last sentence.

This only works if there's a lack of diversity in the community, both culturally, thought-wise, and potentially racially.

Anthony has a good point as well about this not necessarily ensuring a positive outcome.

KIRKULES

Friday, July 23, 2010 8:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Arms by themselves neither make people polite nor safe. Not any more than giving everyone a hammer will result in a construction boom. Suggesting that everyone should be armed on the premise that arming everyone will cure an ill of society is misguided. I agree that everyone should have the tool, but I can make no predictions or guarantees about what they will do with it.

Recent FBI statistics would tend to contradict your assumptions. I think you would probably agree the gun sales since it became apparent that the Dems would take power in 20008 have gone through the roof. In a time period of unprecedented gun sales from 2008-2009 FBI statistics show a 7.2 percent drop in the murder rate. Similar effects have been seen in States after they have adopted concealed carry.

ANTHONYT

Friday, July 23, 2010 8:36 PM

"Recent FBI statistics would tend to contradict your assumptions. I think you would probably agree the gun sales since it became apparent that the Dems would take power in 20008 have gone through the roof. In a time period of unprecedented gun sales from 2008-2009 FBI statistics show a 7.2 percent drop in the murder rate. Similar effects have been seen in state after they have adopted concealed carry."

Hello Kirk,

What do the FBI statistics say about societies that have access to guns and also have a high murder rate? Or societies that have no access to guns and a low murder rate? You can't build a whole house on one plank. You can't build a whole philosophy on one narrowly defined piece of data.

There's more than just guns in this equation. It's not even a certainty that guns are the most important part of this equation.

I also point out that the people who buy guns when they are worried about the Dems are frequently the same people who already own guns. So does owning 3 guns instead of 2 make you safer? It makes me happier, because I love the things, but I'm not sure it has a negative impact on my likelihood of being murdered.

Any time a philosopher posits about the ONE IMPORTANT THING, it's usually easy to prove them wrong. Guns aren't the one important thing. They are a thing, and they may be important, but they're not even the 'key' to solving the problem. You need look no further than Europe to see that something else is at work.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

MALACHITE

Friday, July 23, 2010 9:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

Heh. Shades of gray Ant,... layers.

I'm confused. Earlier in this thread you said the following justifying that this was a black and white issue. But now I'm hearing that this is a gray issue...

Quote:

When you guys realize that life is much simpler (in certain things) then you will see the truth.

Life is not ALWAYS shades of gray.

Its been my experience that its only THAT in about 50% of the time. The rest is just black and white, right and wrong.

So... which is it again?

WULFENSTAR

Friday, July 23, 2010 9:18 PM

Its all of it. Shades of gray, black and white...

I just beleive that white/black happens more than most people WANT to believe.

"Being called a racist by a Liberal is a badge of honor."

WULFENSTAR

Friday, July 23, 2010 9:18 PM

Its all of it. Shades of gray, black and white...

I just beleive that white/black happens more than most people WANT to believe.

"Being called a racist by a Liberal is a badge of honor."

ANTHONYT

Friday, July 23, 2010 9:24 PM

Hello,

It's shades of gray when arguing point A, and black and white when arguing point B, or whichever whenever to argue for whatever.

Which makes it somewhat frustrating to have a discussion when the person you're discussing a topic with vacillates with whimsy.

You have to kind of piece together their actual opinions from many diverse posts where they tend to repeat particular themes with regularity.

--Anthony

Due to the use of Naomi 3.3.2 Beta web filtering, the following people may need to private-message me if they wish to contact me: Auraptor, Kaneman, Piratenews. I apologize for the inconvenience.

KIRKULES

Friday, July 23, 2010 9:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
There's more than just guns in this equation. It's not even a certainty that guns are the most important part of this equation.

You should name a few of the factors that you believe could account for the drop in murder. Do you think it's the disastrous economy and 14% unemployment rate. Liberals like yourself usually claim that crime is the inevitable result of unemployment, are you now claiming unemployment reduces crime.

WULFENSTAR

Friday, July 23, 2010 10:04 PM

Kirk, keep going man...

(bowing to your better ability of pointing out the obvious..)

"Being called a racist by a Liberal is a badge of honor."

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, July 23, 2010 10:21 PM

The irony here is that both Agentrouka and Kirkules are kind of making the same point.

MOST people are decent folk who are polite and treat their fellow man well because they WANT to, not out of fear of punishment.

That's always been true - the folks who keep trying to sell us the bullshit myth that humans are ravening beasts only held in check by threat of force are always and without fail those offering to be in charge of that force, with their own nefarious reasons for doing so.

The problem is, by teaching folks that lie right from the cradle, they try to CREATE it as truth, which thankfully mostly fails cause it's contrary to human nature - but it does produce a small percentage of sociopaths above and beyond what genetic misfire or abusive parentign would, and the problem with this is that a society based upon that lie tends to loft them into power, creating a very disproportionate effect, and a self-perpetuating disaster.

Quote:
“As long as the child will be trained not by love, but by fear, so long will humanity live not by justice, but by force. As long as the child will be ruled by the educator’s threat and by the father’s rod, so long will mankind be dominated by the policeman’s club, by fear of jail, and by panic of invasion by armies and navies.”
Boris Sidis, from “A lecture on the abuse of the fear instinct in early education” in Journal of Abnormal Psychology, 1919.

So it's not that people ARE that way naturally, it's that we have created a society that forces that "value" upon them and imprints it right from the cradle, so without sufficient influence in the other direction, people turn out a whole lot nastier than they otherwise would - and that this is a failure is obvious, because people STILL cooperate, mostly, it's not fear and force that cause folks to cooperate in a supermarket line or on the highway, it's because they choose to, cause it's their nature, which can in most folk only be suppressed, not destroyed.

Weapons won't change that, but when it comes to dealing with the sodders who HAVE been irrevocably mangled between the ears, nothing less will serve, because they have become the self-fulfilling prophecy of that lie.

So you wanna fix things, starting with weaponry is coming at the problem top down, ass backwards, you gotta quit trying like hell to mangle children into monsters by pretending that they are, by convincing them that they are, when they're not.

And until then, sure, having the tool handy to protect yourself isn't a bad idea - but that is a band aid on a bullet wound, cough syrup for tuberculosis, treating a SYMPTOM instead of addressing the cause.

It's not guns we need, it's a sane society.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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