It's worse than we know
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Friday, August 29, 2025 14:55
VIEWED: 15311
PAGE 8 of 25
I know the righties don’t like Dumbya blamed in hindsight, but tough shit. His and his administration’s (and Cheney’s, don’t forget!) coddling of the oil industry is the original cause of all this. The MMS became what it was because of the prevailing mentality, everyone on the environmental front KNEW this, knew regulations were being lifted, if not eliminated, and that little or no oversight of the oil industry was taking place. We screamed...but nobody listened. So now they can blame Obama. But the pure and simple fact is that BP was allowed to behave the way they did because Dumbya and his cronies not only let them, but ENCOURAGED THEM. Obama can’t fix everything they set up...and the disaster that was the MMS, by the way, was known about some time ago. The report on their parties and drugs came out a couple of years ago...BEFORE Obama.
Mike’s estimation of the situation is bang on. It all boils down to what he wrote, if you’re looking for someone to take responsibility and “fix” this magically. Things aren’t that black and white:
Anthony: what Mike said isn’t “righteous”, it’s reality. The government hasn’t the expertise, and any efforts to force much of anything will be stymied. This will get worse. Nothing can stop it; the oil is out there now, it’ll keep going where it goes. In the Gulf Stream now, as I said, Florida and the East Coast are next. You suggestion about the government mobilizing left out one big thing: The Republicans will fight it all the way. Remember, there are those who have said publicly that this disaster only shows we need to drill MORE, to make up for the lost oil. They will fight tooth and nail any attempt by the government to “take over”—which again I say, would do no good. But I make another prediction here; any effort by the Obama adminstration to do the things you suggest will be stymied left and right by the Republicans.
Yes, Mike:Quote:
That’s it. But I don’t think it’s just about being mad at him for “doing nothing”—they’re scared, and everyone needs someone to blame, it’s pretty common human nature. Given they hated him BEFORE only makes it easier.
So while nobody seems to have any solid PLAN, or any concrete idea of WHAT to do, they're still going to go on screaming that Obama should DO SOMETHING. In other words, they're mad at him for doing nothing when the situation clearly calls for panic.
Again Byte is right on. Capping it isn’t going to be easy, if it can be done at all. But I maintain, Byte, that if those tankers were brought in, they could at least deal with the surface oil, and could even make a profit from it. But that’s not being done; does Obama or the government have the power to force them to come? That’s my question; because they ARE the only viable solution to the surface oil. The rest, I don’t know how we deal with. The only thing I do know is that the dispersants currently being used are as toxic as the oil, and aren’t even proven to work. There are better ones, but BP doesn’t “have” them, so they won’t use them.
Cheney, Mike? Good laugh. He’ll keep as low a profile as humanly possible andhope everyone forgets his job before VP, then come out ages from now saying we need to drill MORE, that it can be made safe, etc., etc. Halliburton and TransOcean won’t lift a finger, they’ll just point to BP and keep their OWN low profile.
Nuking sounds stupid to me, for all the reasons given by Byte and Mike, and Anthony’s right, it wouldn’t work. The instinct of “Nuke it!” is one easily reached for, but it doesn’t solve anything. I’m with Rahlm.
Ah, I see Mike found the “spill” to which I was referring. IXTOC 1. There’s our scenario, and there’s what will probable happen this time. Bear in mind that from then until now, NOTHING was changed, in fact regulation got weaker and this became more and more inevitable. We don’t learn from the past, is our problem, and we don’t pay attention to what might be. I heard about it the same place as JS did, and I was as aghast an
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JS, Mike, forget the wetlands, as I said. The facts and figures are there for you to read, if you want to, but the impetus should be put elsewhere. Write the wetlands off, nothing can be done to save them now.
Contesting that nothing can be done right now is disingenuous. Things ARE being done now, many, many things, and will continue to be. But “massive”, I say again, requires the consent of the legislature—get THEM to give him what he needs and have the power he needs, if you can, and you can’t. Animal rescue IS being done, beach cleanup is being done, by humans like ourselves, and the government IS doing many things, they just can’t mobilize fast enough or get the resources down there fast enough, and those doing the animal rescue in particular know what they’re doing—trust me, a lot of untrained people in THAT respect would do more harm than good. Same with beach cleanup—you have to be trained, and I have no doubt MANY are being trained at this very minute, to get as many out there as possible as soon as possible. Scientists have no more answers than anyone else, and simplistically saying “it’s just a chemical” is absurd.
Anthony, Quote:
Where exactly do you look for that army? With half the country hollering about border security, two wars, etc., where will this army come from? In a fantasy world, other Americans, but they’re not dropping their daily lives to run to help...are you? Do you expect them to do more than you’re willing to do?
there *should* be armies of people on the ground cleaning what can be cleaned, saving the animals that can be saved, putting up barriers that can be erected, etc.
The affected areas should be experiencing an invasion of assistance.
Until I hear someone here actually willing to GO THERE and help, this is all bullshit debate, partisanship, guesswork, and finger pointing. if we love our Coasts, WE should be there helping, not bitching that the government isn’t doing enough, not pressuring the government to do things THEY WOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO DO by their counterparts in the legislature, even if there were something they COULD do to have a real impact. The people THERE working are those people like to call the “tree huggers”. They’re there in quantity, doing what they can, and we screamed long and loud for ages before this happened that it could happen. Nobody was listening; we were dismissed as doom-sayers. WE were the “canary in the mineshaft”, but when the canary dies and nobody notices, what good does it do?
This is an interesting discussion, but it's just a lot of finger pointing, frustrated wishing for a solution (nuke it? You gotta be kidding!) and bickering. Anyone really want to do something? There are many ways--contributions if nothing else to the environmental groups that are down there right now, wallowing in oil, trying the help.
Anyone want to send me a plane ticket? I'd be there in an instant. Jim just went through surgery to repair a torn tendon, so I've been helping him 'cuz he's pretty helpless. But Choey would happily take care of him AND my animals if I wanted to go. And I do, gawd I do...I've been through tiny experiences of this, and they're horrific enough. I cannot conceive of what's happening down there.
Otherwise, this is just complaining and wishing and partisan blaming of Obama for something too huge for the government to deal with as quickly and efficiently as people demand.
Then put pressure to STOP deep-water drilling, if nothing else; to put a viable agency in charge and kill MMS (which Obama is already doing); contribute to those doing the actual work; and you "libertarians" (I use the word in quotes because real libertarians don't count), get your heads out of your asses--private enterprise CANNOT be trusted to do what's right, we DO need government to protect us, if we work to make it better it will.
Finally: It's not worse than "we" know...it's worse than SOME of us knew or anticipated, but had their eyes too firmly closed and their imaginations
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"You suggestion about the government mobilizing left out one big thing: The Republicans will fight it all the way."
Hello,
Ask me if I care a fig about the rough fight with the Republicans. My television has been filled with a rough fight against the Republicans all year, but the admin believed the cause was worth fighting for.
It is right for most people to want something done about this, Niki. And no, most people who are gainfully employed can't afford to surrender their livelihoods to take a trip to the coast. If I could afford to be at the coast, I'd have been there already. In Florida, with my family, for purely selfish reasons. Long before any spill occurred.
But it is disingenuous to say, "No one has the expertise except BP" in one breath and then "why don't you get down there" in the next breath.
Clearly, much of the work to be done requires little or no expertise. I remember the Exxon cleanup. A bunch of people with rags cleaning rocks. Scooping mud. Washing birds with dish soap. I'm sure someone directing the efforts had expertise, but I'm equally sure hundreds of coast cleaners didn't graduate from Oil University.
I read the other day that 1200 troops were being moved to inspect the Mexican border. This, in response to Arizona's hot air. How many Federal employees can we spare for the Gulf's Black Sea?
Already employed, already available, some of them actually trained in hazardous materials procedures. And if the experts at BP need to direct a force of thousands of amateurs about the best ways to scoop up oil, that's fine, too.
It's not like scooping snow off your driveway, where the object is to make a path. Of course you don't want to shovel a path only to have the path obscured again. But when you are shoveling snow off your sidewalk, the object isn't to remove the largest quantity of snow possible. When you're scooping oil off the beach, that IS the object. To just remove oil for the sake of removing oil, because oil is toxic, and every ounce is an ounce closer to the finish, even if more oil is still streaming in.
Now, while I can't quit my job and jaunt off to Louisiana, I'm happy to chip in for those that don't live under my restrictions. I get paid on Friday. Drop me a line, Nicky, and I'll paypal you the first 5 percent of your fare. Twenty people do that, and you're on your way.
And if you still don't have enough by next payday, I'll chip in again. And I'll keep chipping in every payday. Because that is something I *can* do from here.
And I kind of like the idea of sending a Browncoat from our community to reach out to theirs, even in a small way.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
"You can lose a quark you don't girth." -Dreamtrove's words to live by, translated by Ipad
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Kwix, you make some very good points. But to me
this is the Exxon-Valdez disaster all over again.
Good point #1:
Government steps in, BP walks away, shrugs, says "We had it under control. We were just about to get it handled. They came in and took over, and screwed it up, and that's where it all went wrong." They'll say that in court, to try to weasel out of responsibility, to try to muddy the blame, pass it off as a chain-of-custody kind of issue, claiming that once the government took over, the government also took responsibility.
SGG: BP is dragging it's feet hoping for a miracle that will not cost them anything, which could conceivably run into the hundreds of billions.
Good point #2:
And all it takes is one judge to agree, and the government's on the hook for the whole shebang.
SGG: BP has deep pockets and will drag out the legal process for as long as it takes - (see #1). Exxon-Valdez case was dragged in the courts well into 2009 (with appeals) and the "accident" happened in 1989; 20 years. So expect BP to follow suit, maybe even use the defense used by Exxon lawyers.
Good point #3:
Add to that the fact that if Obama spends one thin dime of government money on this goddamned mess, he's going to have the Republicans up his ass about it, just the way they've been up his ass about every fucking dime he's spent up til now.
SGG: This may prove to backfire on the Republicans, if they so choose to vilify Obama, because IF the president decides to step in and save Americans (and that's a big IF) and the American shoreline; how would it look that the Republicans want to stop that from happening? It would be a political hot-potato that not even Sarah-baby would touch with McCain's wrinkled paw?
Good point #4:
As I said before, the free market dipshits wanted this. They've got their wish. They should say "Thank you, Mister President. We'll handle it from here." Instead they come whining like a bunch of pussies, begging - no, DEMANDING - that the government they hate so fucking much should now save their stupid asses. And, as always, they want US to pay for the privilege of bailing their stupid fucking corporate asses out. Fuck 'em. They wanted no part of our regulations and oversight. They did this to us. We did not do this to them.
SGG: Don't be surprised if you hear about secret meetings with Paulson, and the other Wall Street con artists, and BP officials learning about how to beg for government bailouts. I could see the infomercial now - Yes, you too could stand to make billions with our fool-proof plan: The Bleed Them Dry Method. Deregulation, it's all the rage.
Good point #5:
I say horseshit. Not until we get some things straight. We'll help, if you can convince BP to *ASK* for our help. In public, on TV, for all to see. We'll take over, but BP will sign paperwork indicating that they are absolved of no responsibility at all. And they'll proclaim so on TV, too. And they'll ask us, in public, to enact tougher regulations and oversight. And they'll make it abundantly clear to all that THEY are going to pay for every red cent of cleanup, for disaster relief, for damages, for making people's lives whole again, for lost wages and livelihood, and for whatever other incidental costs are incurred because of their fuck-up. And then, and ONLY then, will we put the full force and might of this nation to this task.
SGG: We should just take over the whole thing - hook, line and sinker - give them the finger and say "we'll take it from here" keep the well for ourselves until every last drop of oil is cleaned up and restitution is made. Wehn everything is put back to the way it was before the "accident" then maybe we'll consider giving it back. No courts. No politics. Just pure straight up cash, profits directly from the source.
BTW: Did I read somewhere that Haliburton has a hand in this? If so, that explains why Cheney has been so obviously quiet about this latest fiasco. All's quiet from the Sith Lord, Darth Yapper. Normally he would be all up in Obama's ass, harping on how the Dems are sp
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Niki: Hmm, well. Dispersants aren't usually helpful, in fact a little research will show they tried dispersants with the Valdez spill and gave that up pretty quick.
Surfactants, especially bio-surfactants, on the other hand, are edible and non-toxic. Ever had Cool Whip? That's a food-grade surfactant. They work a little bit like dishsoap, allowing the polar water molecule to interact with the non-polar oil molecule, with the added bonus that surfactants can trick bacteria into eating the oil.
But good damn, that would be a LOT of surfactant, and you know what the toxicologists say. Anything is a poison if the dose is high enough.
Then there's fires and explosions, which can also be used to contain andburn off the oil. You get a little air pollution from that, but it's nothing compared to this water pollution. I'm not talking nukes hear, just regular fire and explosions.
Tankers would help as well.
But that's pretty much all the tech we have to deal with this. There's no quick fix, no engineering miracle. This is why it's better to not pollute in the first place.
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British citizen Obama and British Petroleum refuse to stop leak using simple technology
www.theflucase.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3569:g
ulf-oil-spill-could-have-been-sealed-in-8-hours-anytime
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Okay, if we're gonna start changing titles, PN, I'll just change 'em too. Start your own thread, you slather us with them often enough.
Anthony, you're a doll. Thanx for the offer, but better, since I don't think enough people would come on board, put the 5% away this month. If enough people pony up the money, I'll go, but I doubt it--so anyone who wants to contribute, put the money aside; if there's not enough in a month or so for me to go, donate it to those who are THERE! I can give you all the links you want and you can choose the group you want to contribute to.
At the same time, I'd ADORE to be there to help (and believe me, there are browncoats there already!). My e-mail addy is Nikovich@pacbell.net...make a pledge and I'll keep track. I could probably add $100 of my own money by the first of next month, and all I'd need is a plane ticket. If it's anything like other spills have been, there are people to put you up and feed you.
I couldn't do any hard labor, between ankle and wrist, but I could clean birds or beaches, I'm trained in both. And I'd give my eyeteeth...
As for scrubbing rocks, dear gawd no! You seriously DO need training, and boots and gloves and stuff, just to clean beaches. It truly is toxic stuff, and probably if you walked out to an oil-covered beach to scrub, a dozen people would run up to stop you and tell you how dangerous it is!
As for detergent, you bet your bippy!! WE discovered Dawn at the same time others cleaning oil-soaked birds did back in the '70s I think, and it's been the standard ever since. Why do you think they put it on their bottles? Best stuff in the world to cut grease safely, and that's why I'll buy nothing else; to support them. It was a miracle worker when we discovered it, and as I said, has been the standard ever since. You don't need special chemicals to save birds and wildlife, all you need is Dawn. (Maybe I could get them to pay my way if I advertised for them! 
)
"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10
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Interesting, PN.
I don't know much about well technology, my expertise is in the pollution clean up part.
Could be true. And if the oil spills has ulterior motives behind it...
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Byte: I didn't know there was a difference between dispersants and "bio-surfactants", which I'd never heard of. I wish they WOULD, and I wonder why they're NOT?? THAT's a viable methodology, I should think!
"I'm just right. Kinda like the sun rising in the east and the world being round...its not a need its just the way it is." The Delusional "Hero", 3/1/10
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I'll get you some additional information on it. As for why they're not using it...
???
No idea. Maybe they are but the people who might report it don't have a clue what it is.
Hmm, dispersants are categorized as a type of surfactant on wikipedia. But we use surfactants and biosurfactants all the time in this business, I'm more familiar with the other kinds, less familiar with dispersants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosurfactant
Of course, this would only increase the rate of natural attenuation of the oil plume. So that's more of something you can do over the long term, or with parts of the plume you can't readily treat. But you get really good results for increasing the rate of decay. You can make a plume that's been going for 50 years non-detect on sampling in a couple years time with stuff like that.
Hmm, air sparging wouldn't work, you already have people getting respiratory problems breathing the crap... Trying to think of other tech.
Oxidizers, I've seen oxidizers used too. Zero-Valent Iron I've normally seen used for chlorinated solvents, but theoretically you can use them for hydrocarbons, and I've also heard of hydrogen peroxide, that can catalyze the breakdown of oil, and hydrogen peroxide decays down to oxygen and water, so it's not a contaminant in of itself if you use it all up.
Just don't spray anyone with it. ^_^'
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