wikileaks video: civilians murdered in Iraq
POSTED BY: mal4prez
UPDATED: Saturday, March 14, 2026 23:03
VIEWED: 4655
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
The choppers were hovering about. They were not called in. No action was happening where these men - the men who were killed - were gathered. And the choppers were was definitely NEVER fired upon.
Just out of curiosity, do you have any cites for this information? Any proof that the gunships weren't called in? Any evidence that there was no fire on Coalition troops from the area the men were assembled in? Anything to show that the helicopters weren't fired on before the video clip started?
The video is pretty strong stuff, and the attack on the van is troubling, but the whole clip is without context. What was the situation prior to the video? What was going on out of the frame of the video? No one knows.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Hmm. I think no matter WHAT the context is, shooting kids then denying them the best care possible is not okay.
As for context, knowing that could at least create some kind of understanding as to WHY the soldiers did what they did, or were acting why they did. But I'm not sure that can make these deaths right. They mistook (or claimed) at least four people for enemy combatants who were unarmed and not a threat.
The question is whether this is an accident or a malicious act, either way it's a BAD fuck-up in operating procedure and a tragedy.
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Quote:From the very beginning of the video, there is nothing happening in the area where these particular men were standing. They did NOT fire at the helicopters as reported. They didn't even look for cover when the helicopters were overhead. They showed absolutely no sign that they were any threat.
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
The choppers were hovering about. They were not called in. No action was happening where these men - the men who were killed - were gathered. And the choppers were was definitely NEVER fired upon.
Just out of curiosity, do you have any cites for this information? Any proof that the gunships weren't called in?
Sure, perhaps there was some other gunplay happening that day, and that's why the choppers patrolled. (Edited to be clear: the official report made it sound like these choppers joined a battle already happening. That clearly was not the case!) But I would have hoped that the most advanced military in the world would make sure they were going after the actual culprits, rather than getting in posse mode and going after the first convenient group of bystanders they found.
Because that is EXACTLY what they did.
These soldiers were out to have their video game fun by killing Iraqis. If you have any doubt, watch it again. (Did you watch it?) The gunner was begging the wounded man - who was one the Reuters reporters - to pick up a gun so he could shoot him some more. As if a pistol in the hand of a man who can barely move is a threat to a military helicopter! It's BS. These guys had bloodlust. Nothing else.
And if we're putting our soldiers in a situation where the only way they can feel safe is to murder a group of non-threats, including CHILDREN, our soldiers sure as hell should not be there. We're doing nothing but creating a new generation of terrorists and turning our own bright youth into blood-thirsty murderers.
Edit to add: the official report said "Oh, we don't know how those poor kids got shot!" As if... some stray bullets went into their day care accidentally. Surely from the terrorists guns, not ours! Absolute bullshit. In the video, US soldiers find the wounded girl, and call for help. The guy in the chopper, the one who shot her, says oh well.
I think that guy probably does have nightmares. He shouldn't have been in that situation. None of our soldiers should.
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Quote:I did mean that. I started a thread that didn't go far, but it has lots and lots of links. Here:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hey, M4P, I noticed your throw away line about "The Family" and looked into it. Interesting, do you mean the Washington D.C. Christian group?
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=42548
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Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
The choppers were hovering about. They were not called in. No action was happening where these men - the men who were killed - were gathered. And the choppers were was definitely NEVER fired upon.
Just out of curiosity, do you have any cites for this information? Any proof that the gunships weren't called in? Any evidence that there was no fire on Coalition troops from the area the men were assembled in? Anything to show that the helicopters weren't fired on before the video clip started?
The video is pretty strong stuff, and the attack on the van is troubling, but the whole clip is without context. What was the situation prior to the video? What was going on out of the frame of the video? No one knows.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
The situation and cites and the context?
I think HKC's "this is what happens to men/women when you train them to kill and then put them in a kill zone with civilians and combatants" is the situation/cite/context. I think it's ludicrous and hypocritical to try and charge these people - I know that will be frowned on - but the ones that need to take the blame for this are not the guys who would otherwise be painting their second bedroom or doing yard work back home, but the ones that put them in those effed positions in the first place, to put them in places where their world gets turned upside down and they're not the same people, where their mistakes end up killing people.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
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I'm watching it. I dunno, it's bizarre. On one hand, I can see how at a distance over the shoulder bags and... I think another guy had a sweater and another some kind of stick, they were all dark and elongate. I can see how that could be mistaken.
...But the lying about being under fire... Hmm.
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Agreed, Piz - with every freakin word of that.
-F
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Hmm. I think no matter WHAT the context is, shooting kids then denying them the best care possible is not okay.
As noted, I do have problems with shooting up the van, but if you look at the video without Wikileak's captions, would you know there were kids there? I expect that Iraqi kids shot by ether side get sent to Iraqi hospitals. Probably because there's only so much capacity the Coalition hospitals can handle.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
From the very beginning of the video, there is nothing happening in the area where these particular men were standing. They did NOT fire at the helicopters as reported.
But what happened before the beginning of the video? Why would the Apaches have folks in their video before they were fired on? If they were called because folks had been firing on ground forces would that be on the chopper's video? Context.
Quote:
They didn't even look for cover when the helicopters were overhead. They showed absolutely no sign that they were any threat.
Effective range of the guns on an Apache is almost a mile. Max range is almost 3 miles. Can you see or hear a helicopter 1 to 3 miles away?
Quote:
But I would have hoped that the most advanced military in the world would make sure they were going after the actual culprits, rather than getting in posse mode and going after the first convenient group of bystanders they found.
Because that is EXACTLY what they did.
Proof?
Mal. It may be exactly as you say, or it may not. You really don't know. All you have is a video edited by folks with an agenda. You do not have all the facts. I don't have any problem with asking for more investigation of what happened that day, but coming up with a guilty verdict based on much less than all the information is just a lynching.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:So killing people who aren't a threat is ok as long as you've got a really really good reason to be mad? I mean, you did watch it right? Those soldiers were angry, not threatened. "Fucking Prick" they say. "A bunch of dead bastards."
Originally posted by Geezer:
But what happened before the beginning of the video? Why would the Apaches have folks in their video before they were fired on? If they were called because folks had been firing on ground forces would that be on the chopper's video? Context.
Quote:That would only make the official story worse. How were the helicopters taking fire if they were a mile away? And it wasn't like there were US troops right there under fire. It took several minutes for the ground troops to get to the site after the shooting.Quote:
They didn't even look for cover when the helicopters were overhead. They showed absolutely no sign that they were any threat.
Effective range of the guns on an Apache is almost a mile. Max range is almost 3 miles. Can you see or hear a helicopter 1 to 3 miles away?
Talking of lynching - suppose someone robs a bank, killing several people, in Dallas TX. Cops then shoot into a crowd of people in the area because they see one of them holding a gun, and think others might be too. Not because they recognize a perp, and not because someone carrying a gun in TX is rare or even illegal. Just because the cops are pissed over the robbery.
It's looking an awful lot like that's what happened here Geezer. Sure, perhaps this video was CGI'd together, but I doubt it. I've been watching wikileaks for years and I have the utmost respect for the way they operate. The intro to the video was unnecessary and I wish they hadn't added it, but as for the clip itself - it's pretty damning.
BTW, wikileaks didn't just release the video. They sent people into Iraq to investigate this and question witnesses. Wikileaks is a pretty tight outfit.
Quote:I never said I wanted to go find these guys and "lynch" them. In fact, I quite clearly stated that I did NOT want to kill anyone over this. I did say, in my first post when I was quite pissed, that I'd like to see them in jail. It should go without saying, though I guess in these times and in this crowd it doesn't so I'll say it: jail time comes after a hearing. You know, court. With evidence presented and all that.
I don't have any problem with asking for more investigation of what happened that day, but coming up with a guilty verdict based on much less than all the information is just a lynching.
You might have noticed that a few posts up I asked if an investigation was starting. Didn't ask if the nooses were ready. Asked about an investigation.
You also might have noted that since my first post, since I've cooled off, I've been pointing the finger more at the cover-up then the event. I mean, the shooting is horrifying and I highly doubt any prior events excuse the behavior of these soldiers, but the system that allows this to happen by covering it up is the deeper problem. A war that trains soldiers to think and act the way that these did is the deepest problem.
I say this as someone with a family member, the only family member I'm really close to, getting ready to ship over there. I do not want my nephew turned into someone like that. When I say I think that shooter is having nightmares, I'm not wishing it on him. I'm seeing it as another wound of war suffered by a human being, a wound that's not likely to be cured. Or even treated.
"Well it's their fault for bringing their kids into a battle."
You think anyone's that cold-hearted, or is this just the first step of a macho military man needing to be in denial that he shot a kid? Do you think he's succeeding?
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