'Expropriate it,' he said.
POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 19:01
VIEWED: 2485
PAGE 4 of 5
He ever was ?
Unfortunately Geeze, we DO bear some responsibility since they've got such a short yardstick to measure him by thanks to that asshat Perez, and frankly even as fallen as he is, he's still better on his worst day than Perez was.
And yes, I am oh so well aware that's headed for a tin pot dictatorship, ever since he started foolishly removing the limits on the power of his own office, which his people, to their discredit, let him do, sure...
But it's THEIR country, man, when they want our "advice", our "help", which if they had any sense they'd nuke themselves rather than do, they'll bloody well ask for it.
There's a lotta countries who will tolerate being a tin-pot dictatorship if they get to pick the dictator, especially if the alternative is US picking the dictator, which happens often enough.
We want credibility, that's a game we have GOT to stop playing, and every time we go round picking shit with Chavez we enrage his people and increase his support by just that bloody much - we had any friggin SENSE we'd pull back, and let that reach it's inevitable conclusion one way or the other, without stickin our nose into it, especially since while his armed forces couldn't *quite* send us packing, he can damned well bloody that nose if we poke it to far, and he's half itchin for the chance to do it cause it'll give him an "enemy" to blame for a lotta problems that are the fault of his own policies and officials.
That said, you DO have some of that better-dead-than-red aroma comin off ya like a bad aftershave, Geeze, so why not be honest about it ?
-F
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Why is everyone in this forum (okay, maybe not everyone, but you know who you are - and you're on both sides of the political spectrum and everywhere in between) incapable of making a coherent argument? I'm not talking about crazies like PN or that Kingeichblahdeblah guy, I'm talking about people who seem to be able to express themselves somewhat. If you have a problem with what Chavez is doing, tell us why without falling back on tired cliches about socialism - this isn't about socialism or capitlism but about a particular action you disagree with. Tell us why. If you can't do that without resorting to a bunch of nonsense that adds nothing to the point you seem to be trying to make (but I confess it's hard to figure out the point most of the time in RWED) then really you have nothing to say.
This thread has the potential for interesting conversations but it always devolves into "Bush sucks!" "Obama rocks!" "Obama's a socialist Christian-hating puppy eater!" "Yo Momma!"
When there's too much partisan bullshit flying around for the woman who works for a political party that's when you know it's time to take a step back. If you have a point, make it. If you dont, STFU already.
*
People before profits
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one point, Chavez is also trying to undo decades of the " corporatism " which the US sponsored tyrants installed throughout most of Latin America ( and the world )
With entitys such as the United Fruit Company, and Standard Oil making policy beneficial to the companys bottom line, and to those who support the company... it may well take years to undo, and return their country into one where the people call the shots.
With the resistance to many of Obamas changes, can you see where trying to resist " corporatism " or even revert it in the US would also be an uphill battle ? The United States may well go through a similar phase in the near future... or go all the way to Corporate run American, particularly with the recent supreme court ruling.
Chavez may do many things that make him seem the asshat, but I do not envy him his fight. While many freedoms are curtailed, healthcare, education, poverty, employment, etc are things he is doing a much better job at addressing that the previous lackey juntas who had the US stamp of approval. This also separates him from Mugabe in Zimbabwe.
I think it may take another decade to really judge the effects of Chavez... Hopefully some of things he planted takes root, so when there is a push for more democracy there, it will not be subverted by other interests as it so often happens.
Oh, yeah... guys Geezer acknowledged the parallel I made between Chavez and the actions of Israel, which he described as fascist as well as stupid... a little unfair to attack him for picking on Venezuela selectively. Unlike AURAPTOR he does make some points about one party systems and the need for an impartial judiciary. Mind you with the direction the US is moving, after two terms of Palin the fight against Corporatism may well become your own.
Either you Are with the terrorists, or ... you Are with the terrorists 
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
He ever was ?
Unfortunately Geeze, we DO bear some responsibility since they've got such a short yardstick to measure him by thanks to that asshat Perez, and frankly even as fallen as he is, he's still better on his worst day than Perez was.
Very well could be. But Perez is gone and what Chavez does is current events. That's why I comment on it.
Never heard you complaining about the Norman Bastards that took Britain away from my Saxon forefathers. Or was that the Saxon Bastards that took Britain away from my Celtic forefathers?
Quote:
But it's THEIR country, man, when they want our "advice", our "help", which if they had any sense they'd nuke themselves rather than do, they'll bloody well ask for it.
As noted before, I'm not giving them advice, or suggesting anyone try to help them. It is their business, although it'll probably take another revolution, since the electorial machinery is now in the bag.
But I don't see why that should prohibit me from commenting on it. That would be like saying that the RWED posters who aren't citizens of the U.S. couldn't comment on American politics, government, society, etc. (Hmmm
)Quote:
That said, you DO have some of that better-dead-than-red aroma comin off ya like a bad aftershave, Geeze, so why not be honest about it ?
Fremd, if folk actually want to be Socialists or Communists, (or pretty much anything else) it's fine with me - as long as it's not with a gun to their heads, or with their guns to my head. I have noted previously that I can't find many (if any) examples of countries with long-term successful Socialist/Communist economy. I don't think it works very well. Places like China and Vietnam are keeping the political trappings and moving toward Free(ish) Market at flank speed. Maybe the South and Central American countries trying it now will do better. Venezuela does not make me hopeful.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:Bull. There are plenty of folks who wanted to be socialists, or communists... and you shit your pants about it every single time. AFA you're concerned, our support of the Shah of Iran (who took power after a CIA engineered coup), or Pinochet, or the Taliban (we called them "freedom fighters" back then), or Somoza, any number of tyrants who took down home-grown socialist movements was justified. But didn't we hold a gun to the people's heads, forcing them into tyrannies?
Fremd, if folk actually want to be Socialists or Communists, (or pretty much anything else) it's fine with me
Because, yanno, I KNOW folks from central and south America, and they've told me stories... oh yes, they have... about the US-trained torture techniques (School of the Americas), about people showing up for a (fake) union meeting, only to be gunned down by (US led and supported) mercenaries, about the disappeareds, all the way through the Honduran coup.
Nope, Geezer, you're a dyed-in-the wool corporatist who will use or justify every trick in the book - mass murder, torture, intimidation, invasion, dictatorship, economic reprisal, coups, etc etc ... including lying and weaseling your way thru this board... to stamp out socialism anywhere and everywhere it appears even if it has the support of the people.
Basically, you're a chickenshit fucktard who is still under the illusion that we buy your story of being a "reasonable" middle-of-the-road-guy and not a rabid corporatist merc. Well, you aren't, and we don't.
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SignyM.
You forgot to accuse me of being a paid shill for the government, like you used to. 
Sorry, but real people have their own opinions outside your paranoid fantasies.
Go take your meds.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:First of all, I noticed that you sidestepped the point of the discussion entirely. Apparently, you have nothing to say about our imposiiton of capitalism on various countries - at the point of a gun, I might add. Something that you not only didn't object to, but actively supported.
Fremd, if folk actually want to be Socialists or Communists, (or pretty much anything else) it's fine with me - as long as it's not with a gun to their heads, or with their guns to my head.
No. Having nothing substantive to refute my post with, you launched right into a personal attack-
Quote:- a misdirected one at that. That wasn't me, Geezer. You must be getting old. Aricept usually works for that. And of course you have your own opinion. It just happens to be rapidly pro-corporate. Shall I dig up your rationalizations of our various "interventions" around the world, when WE held a gun to people's heads and said "Our way or.. dead?"? (Yep, when I have time I believe I shall.
You forgot to accuse me of being a paid shill for the government, like you used to
)Everyone recognizes your POV, except possibly for you. Unfortunately, there's no medicine for self-deception, otherwise I would suggest that you take a double dose.
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Quote:
Iraq, Japan, Germany...... all exactly the same, huh?
I'm not sure what this has to do with Chavez, unless this is a response to Kwicko's point about expropriating nations, and the argument is that the U.S. was justified in Germany and Japan, and will eventually be justified in Iraq.
In which case... Still is completely off topic, and kind of a red herring, and doesn't make sense. Japan started industrializing in the 1800s (See Meiji Restoration, the early 1900s war with Russia, WHICH JAPAN WON), so we didn't exactly improve on Japan so much as firebombed the bejeezus out of their paper houses.
And we split Germany with Russia, which caused untold heartbreak in the form of the Iron Curtain and the Berlin Wall. Though that was actually more Russia's fault... Still, not such a great idea to walk into a country and carve it up. It's basically trying to build a skyscraper with only dynamite and bullets.
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Actually, Kwicko, we still have bases in Japan and Germany, so technically we're still occupying them.
Nation building and social reform efforts have long since ceased, however. Germany was probably the longest one, what with (again) the Berlin Wall thing, then the Soviets falling.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:Quote:
Iraq, Japan, Germany...... all exactly the same, huh?
I'm not sure what this has to do with Chavez, unless this is a response to Kwicko's point about expropriating nations, and the argument is that the U.S. was justified in Germany and Japan, and will eventually be justified in Iraq.
That's specifically to what I was responding. The view that we simply took something as Chavez did. The overall point being, we left those countries, as we'll be leaving Iraq. Hugo likely won't be releasing that which he's taken , for the good of the State, any time soon. Certainly won't happen while he's still in power.
As for the GOOD that came of it, or whether or not Western industrialization had any improvement on those countries.... not in any way connected w/ what's being discussed.
The T.Rex they call JANE!
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