Real World Event Discussions

US denies jet flew over Venezuela

POSTED BY: GinoBiffaroni
UPDATED: Thursday, January 14, 2010 00:03
VIEWED: 9450
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GEEZER

Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I have to admit I don't really understand how the dual exchange rate policy will work...

but in this economy, there as much as here keeping costs down on food, medical supplies, etc would have to be a priority.

and keeping folks in country working seems to be one of the end results of the deal... taking that into account it seems to be a temporary measure to shore things up until the world economy bounce back...

To me, the dual exchange rate looks like the government is, in effect, putting a 100% tariff on most imported goods by a means which doesn't violate the letter of any fair trade agreements Venezuela has with other countries. This may cause some increase in domestic manufacturing, but I don't see local auto makers or flat-screen TV factories popping up any time soon. I'd guess Pres. Chavez just wants to keep more Bolivars from leaving the country.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KWICKO

Sunday, January 10, 2010 2:49 PM

I seem to remember the U.S. pushing for the same kinds of tariffs at various times in our history. Some are still pushing for such tariffs against cheap Chinese-made goods, with the goal being to try to keep manufacturing jobs and U.S. dollars here in the U.S.

Is that a bad thing for us to be doing, trying to keep jobs and dollars from flowing offshore?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

GEEZER

Sunday, January 10, 2010 4:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I seem to remember the U.S. pushing for the same kinds of tariffs at various times in our history.

Well, yeah. Along with most every country in the world, at one time or another. Has it ever worked out well in the long run?

Quote:
Some are still pushing for such tariffs against cheap Chinese-made goods, with the goal being to try to keep manufacturing jobs and U.S. dollars here in the U.S.

True, although I don't give them much chance. We usually go through the WTO now if we believe China, or whoever, is dumping product.

Also, since Venezuela has little internal manufacturing of, say, consumer electronics or cars, there's no jobs to lose - just a virtual 100% surtax on any imports besides food, medicine and industrial machinery. I'd suspect that repair shops will be about the only winners, if they can get parts. Clothing makers might profit, since they have a ready and cheap labor pool. I wonder if any Chavez cronies have interests in the local fashion business?

Then again, administering this dual exchange rate business seems to offer a great opportunity to skim a little off the top here and there.

Quote:
Is that a bad thing for us to be doing, trying to keep jobs and dollars from flowing offshore?

Given the way things have generally ended up when protectionism has been tried, it seems a pretty futile effort.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KWICKO

Sunday, January 10, 2010 6:56 PM

Quote:

True, although I don't give them much chance. We usually go through the WTO now if we believe China, or whoever, is dumping product.

Which would mean that the Bush Administration was in the wrong when it imposed tariffs on Chinese-made goods in 2007...

Quote:

Also, since Venezuela has little internal manufacturing of, say, consumer electronics or cars, there's no jobs to lose - just a virtual 100% surtax on any imports besides food, medicine and industrial machinery. I'd suspect that repair shops will be about the only winners, if they can get parts. Clothing makers might profit, since they have a ready and cheap labor pool. I wonder if any Chavez cronies have interests in the local fashion business?

Oh, I'm sure there will be skimming. They may even go so far as to call such corrupt practices "no-bid contracts". ;)

By the way, you'll note tht the U.S. has little internal manufacturing of, say, consumer electronics or cars these days, too. Shall we stop any and all efforts to create jobs or save them, then, and just let other jobs go as well?

I'm not defending Chavez's actions in saying any of this; I'm just not willing to condemn him for taking the same kinds of actions that we routinely take. I figure if I don't bitch about it when we do it, I shouldn't bitch about it when someone else does it.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

GINOBIFFARONI

Sunday, January 10, 2010 7:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I seem to remember the U.S. pushing for the same kinds of tariffs at various times in our history.

Well, yeah. Along with most every country in the world, at one time or another. Has it ever worked out well in the long run?

Quote:
Some are still pushing for such tariffs against cheap Chinese-made goods, with the goal being to try to keep manufacturing jobs and U.S. dollars here in the U.S.

True, although I don't give them much chance. We usually go through the WTO now if we believe China, or whoever, is dumping product.

Also, since Venezuela has little internal manufacturing of, say, consumer electronics or cars, there's no jobs to lose - just a virtual 100% surtax on any imports besides food, medicine and industrial machinery. I'd suspect that repair shops will be about the only winners, if they can get parts. Clothing makers might profit, since they have a ready and cheap labor pool. I wonder if any Chavez cronies have interests in the local fashion business?

Then again, administering this dual exchange rate business seems to offer a great opportunity to skim a little off the top here and there.

Quote:
Is that a bad thing for us to be doing, trying to keep jobs and dollars from flowing offshore?

Given the way things have generally ended up when protectionism has been tried, it seems a pretty futile effort.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

But is there a huge market for cars and flat screen in Venezuela anyway?

and th US has been known to ignore WTO rulings when they thought they could get away with it, depending on the political scene... dems and reps have done it

Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

GEEZER

Sunday, January 10, 2010 8:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm not defending Chavez's actions in saying any of this; I'm just not willing to condemn him for taking the same kinds of actions that we routinely take.

Not really the same, since we don't routinely impose a 100% tariff on everything - except food, medicine, and industrial machinery - imported from anywhere. This is what Chavez has done. And to distract attention from things getting more expensive, he's back on the "America did..." button.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GINOBIFFARONI

Sunday, January 10, 2010 8:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm not defending Chavez's actions in saying any of this; I'm just not willing to condemn him for taking the same kinds of actions that we routinely take.

Not really the same, since we don't routinely impose a 100% tariff on everything - except food, medicine, and industrial machinery - imported from anywhere. This is what Chavez has done. And to distract attention from things getting more expensive, he's back on the "America did..." button.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

or the US did buzz them with a P-3 like he says...

they have done it enough times everywhere else,

hell, wasn't it a P-3 that had collided with a chinese fighter

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/06/world/collision-with-china-washingto
n-chinese-pilot-reveled-in-risk-pentagon-says.html?pagewanted=1

Turkey threatened to start shooting down US planes in 2007 for wandering across their border...

Cuba complains this is a common occurance

Just because Chavez uses it, doesn't mean it didn't happen, the US track record on denials being factual isn't so hot

Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists

Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

KWICKO

Sunday, January 10, 2010 9:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'm not defending Chavez's actions in saying any of this; I'm just not willing to condemn him for taking the same kinds of actions that we routinely take.

Not really the same, since we don't routinely impose a 100% tariff on everything - except food, medicine, and industrial machinery - imported from anywhere. This is what Chavez has done. And to distract attention from things getting more expensive, he's back on the "America did..." button.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Valid point, I'll give you that.

But it certainly wouldn't be unexpected for the U.S. to be overflying Venezuela, either, especially the more Chavez ramps up the "But America did..." rhetoric. Any time someone in the world starts blaming all the world's ills on America, I rather expect us to start keeping a closer eye on them.

Having a spokesman say that "it's not United States policy to overfly countries without their permission" is really pretty weak of the government to do. Sure, it's not OFFICIALLY our policy, but then again, we don't really torture, either, except when we do. So it's not official policy. But it DOES happen, often under direct orders from the President, the NSA, the CIA, and/or the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

GEEZER

Sunday, January 10, 2010 11:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
But it certainly wouldn't be unexpected for the U.S. to be overflying Venezuela, either, especially the more Chavez ramps up the "But America did..." rhetoric.

Don't really see the need for it, since you can hop a commercial flight to Caracas from any major US city, and travel pretty freely within Venezuela. Sigint can be done from across borders and satellites can do pretty good visual and electronic recon. Also not too sure what we would be looking for. Besides, despite all the posturing, we still have a good bit of trade with Venezuela, and get something like 7-8% of our oil from them (more than we get from Iraq).

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Sunday, January 10, 2010 11:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
or the US did buzz them with a P-3 like he says...

Can you think of any good reason for the US to do so?

"Keep the Shiny side up"