Japanese Whalers.....
POSTED BY: Calhoun
UPDATED: Friday, June 12, 2026 18:00
VIEWED: 19782
PAGE 5 of 24
Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Okay, Mike, I'll agree with you there. I don't like the use of violence to make a point either. I know I'm prejudiced because I've been in this fight for so long and have become frustrated by the inability to stop the Japanese from their game, so I'll grant you my view is skewed.
Nonetheless, while I agree it's wrong, at the same time I can understandhow frustration would make people take violent measures. This battle has been going on for fifty or sixty years now, and still whale species are being killed to the point of endangerment. Again; yes, it's wrong to take violent measures, you're right.
As far as us being the ultimate predator; there are ways to co-exist with other predators if we gave a damn. It's tough, it's controversial, like re-introducing wolves to Yellowstone, but it could be done if people just friggin' woke UP!
Here, we're getting an increase in population of mountain lions, and will eventually no doubt be faced with dealing with it. We've just recently had coyotes come into the area. But for now at least, we need both species to cut down on the prey population, which is burgeoning. I think here the problem will be less, as NO hunting is allowed at all, so if the ecosystem is left alone, the population of prey determines the population of predators, since they can't increase their range. If we were in competition, it would be another matter.
They've developed to the East steadily, which has put them in conflict with the native mountain lions, and there have been problems. I THINK a predator species coming into an area which is pretty well balanced except for an overabundance of prey species will balance itself, but I don't know for sure, time will have to tell us.
I like the approach Parks Canada has taken with Bears and Wolves...
over the year they collect and freeze roadkill from the highways, then in the spring around the time these animals start to move around they use helicopters to drop the carcasses into the back country to keep them from coming out too early, giving the berry crops more time to grow... keeping them from looking for food in towns, etc
seems to work, and low cost too
Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists
Life is like a jar of Jalapeño peppers.
What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:I disagree. I think it's all degrees. Killing a fly & a cow are on vastly different levels.
Originally posted by perfessergee:
And I should point out that though I really don't like whaling, I can't be morally opposed to it, and I believe that no one who eats meat can do so. Killing critters is killing critters.
Killing a shark is different than killing a sea lion.
And whalers can be shot like the murderers they are with no moral reservations, God told me so, and his law is above ours.
Okay, a little nuts there, but my point is that we are all animals, and that the more evolved ones should be as off limits for hunting as two year old human children are.
The only conceivable logical disagreement with this would be that we're ALL game, unless you go with that "Only humans have souls" crap.
Chris,
We have little to dispute, except for the notion that I think that the term of "murder" is reserved for killing one's own species, though we irrationally exclude warfare from our own collective definition of murder. Mind you, we aren't the only murderers - our closest relatives, the chimps, do it too. And so do many other species. And in a very real sense, we ARE all game - if you don't believe that, go for a walk around Hudson Bay in the fall when the polar bears are waiting for the winter ice (please don't actually do this!)
The most relevant question here is "who ought to be allowed for killing/eating?"
My view is that of an academic ecologist. Should only plants be "allowed to be eaten"? Well, nobody would rationally argue that - certainly not the plants. What about predators like wolves and mountain lions? Surely their prey would like to be left alone, so should we kill the predators? The point is that ALL species are dependent on other species for their survival and reproduction. Those of us who are not plants (not green, don't photosynthesize) are parasites in the biological sense. Everybody else depends on those green plants for their survival. We may eat each other, but nobody else other than plants actually produces any biologically useful energy.
Lastly, I completely agree that there are differences among species. Swatting a fly is not the same thing as killing a whale. But, there are indeed degrees, though I deliberately avoided that issue above.
(For others following this thread, sharks eat seals on a fairly regular basis, but sometimes seals eat sharks - usually young ones). Who's "in the right"?
PS Chris, thanks for a provocative question!
perfessergee
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Hitler did a lot of 'legal' stuff too.
Until someone decided to tell him it wasn't, and interfere with his efforts using violence.
What a stupid example.
I note for the record that nobody told him his actions were illegal. In fact they went out of their way to accomodate him when he violated international treaties. Hitler was never prosecuted for breaking German law. Nobody interfered with his efforts using violence. War was not declared until AFTER Germany invaded Poland.
There is no moral equivilant between harvesting whales and invading Poland, also these protestors are not a nation acting in its own defense or with regards to their treaty obligations.
Your example would require war with Japan rather then violent action on the high seas by non-government actors.
In this case we have one party accusing another of illegal action and then taking illegal action to stop them. In that situation...the only folks who should be prosecuted are the protestors.
Vigilante justice has no place in the real world. They are not Batman or Spiderman...just some idiots who got their boat run over and endangered a lot of people.
H
"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
I say escalate the confrontation further!
Sure...provoke a naval conflict with the Japanese. Good luck without the American Navy on your side.
H
"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
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This board is messed up
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Sometimes you fight the fights that need fighting...period. Plenty of things in the past have been legal. Usually it took some extraordinary action by some for others to wake up and and change the laws. The entire civilized world should condemn Japan for these hunts, especially the ships' crew's act of attempted murder on the high seas.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Sometimes you fight the fights that need fighting...period. Plenty of things in the past have been legal. Usually it took some extraordinary action by some for others to wake up and and change the laws. The entire civilized world should condemn Japan for these hunts, especially the ships' crew's act of attempted murder on the high seas.
Which ship's crew are you referring to? The Japanese ship, or the Sea Shepherd's ship? Seems to me they've both engaged in the same activity (ramming the others' boats), but the Japanese have been rather more successful at it. ;)
Mike
Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde
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Free, I agree:Quote:
Unfortunately, the mix of opinions you get here are merely a pretty good sample of what you'll get everywhere. That's why nothing gets done about whaling and other abhorrent behavior by man.
This board is messed up
JS:Quote:
You pretty much said it for me. Things have been "legal" throughout history which people had to fight--sometimes with violence--to right. Such is life.
Sometimes you fight the fights that need fighting...period. Plenty of things in the past have been legal. Usually it took some extraordinary action by some for others to wake up and and change the laws. The entire civilized world should condemn Japan for these hunts, especially the ships' crew's act of attempted murder on the high seas
Mike: Ridiculous. The actions by Japan have been far more aggressively violent than those by the SSCS over time; there is no comparison, however this individual incident came about. You can try to argue otherwise, but I don't think you'll convince anyone except those already believing as you do. Those on each side can only agree to disagree.
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Mike: Ridiculous. The actions by Japan have been far more aggressively violent than those by the SSCS over time; there is no comparison, however this individual incident came about. You can try to argue otherwise, but I don't think you'll convince anyone except those already believing as you do. Those on each side can only agree to disagree.
Seems we will indeed have to agree to disagree, because I posted video of the Sea Shepherd ramming a Japanese whaling ship with their own similarly-sized whaling ship, which is the exact kind of bullshit action that can and does lead to sinkings and deaths, even if the dickheads responsible claim that wasn't what they intended to do. I'm sure nobody aboard the Titanic intended to attack that defenseless iceberg, either. ;)
In the articles linked by Gino, it's noted that the Sea Shepherds' leader has bragged about ramming whaling ships, and has taken credit for sinking one of them with a limpet mine. In the face of clear acts of violence and piracy, is it unreasonable for Japanese sailors to defend themselves when they feel they are being attacked?
Also, many have pointed out that there are things that are worth breaking the law for on moral grounds. I'd humbly submit to all of you that Osama bin Laden feels exactly the same way. I can admit that he has a gripe with the U.S. and the West; I can even go so far as to begrudgingly admit that he may have LEGITIMATE issues with us and our policies and actions in the mid-east. But where he loses me, utterly and completely, is with his methods. Apparently y'all beg to differ, and have no problems with killing people whom you disagree on moral issues.
I'll leave you to your hatred.
Mike
Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde
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Unfair, Mike. Only one or two have called for violence against the whalers.Quote:
is a snark, pure and simple. I'm certainly not calling for violence, and said I agreed with you on that point, and potentially others.
have no problems with killing people whom you disagree on moral issues.
From what I've read, the Japanese HAVE been more aggressive, but that's neither here nor there. Your comment lessens my respect for you.
I now see you're happy to go after those of us who usually agree with you, and paint us with the same brush as those who are regularly out-there and call for violence. Didn't think you were like that; thanx for putting me straight.
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