War in Afghanistan
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Friday, November 28, 2025 16:36
VIEWED: 6755
PAGE 3 of 8
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
AFGHANISTAN: A WAR OF LIES
The Afghan War’s biggest untruth is, `we’ve got to fight terrorists over there so we don’t have to fight them at home.’ Politicians and generals keep using this canard to justify a war they can’t otherwise explain or justify.
Many North Americans still buy this lie because they believe the 9/11 attacks came directly from the Afghanistan-based al-Qaida and Taliban movements.
Not true. The 9/11 attacks were planned in Germany and Spain, and conducted mainly by US-based Saudis to punish America for supporting Israel’s repression of the Palestinians.
We never were too concerned with the Taliban atrocities against civilians in Afghanistan until after 911. I think we're there for one reason only; to have a contingency force nearby in case the Taliban get close to the Pakistani nukes if that government collapses.
But before all this started Musharraf was running a relatively stable Pakistan... then pressure from the US removed him and Pakistan into relative unstabilty. Plus threats, obvious bribe money, drone attacks.....
If the government there collapses... who stirred everything there up to begin with?
Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists
Lets party like its 1939
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No no, Niki, you misunderstood me. The emphasis wasn't on arranged marriages, the emphasis was on the POWER PLAY. It's extremely corrupt and sad.
I read a little bit about Pashtun marriages recently because I write as a hobby, and I was writing something where that might come up. There's a lot that goes on with the Pashtun marriages, the parents all usually have to agree, then the leader and elders have to agree, then there's the dowries and etc. As I understand it, in rural areas you often do have young girls getting married to the much older men, mostly because the much older men are the only ones who can afford it.
But the FLDS... There's stuff going on there that's another thing entirely. You get the young girl older men scenario here, because the older men have often curried more favour. But the families don't always agree on the marriages. Usually the marriage has been arranged with the religious leader of the compound, who will force the family of the bride to give her up if they disagree with the marriage. It all depends on who has the power and favour. It's not neat at all, there aren't any protections for the family of the daughter, it's "I'm in charge here. I'm taking now."
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Frem: I know the FLDS aren't dangerous, they're odd, they live among us, but the number of them who are dangerous compared to the occasional off-the-deep-end Mitchell has them not really registering on my threat-o-meter. Mostly they just drive around on lawnmowers with rifles slung across the front, or I'll see them other times in grocery stores in their pioneer get-ups. They're more of a problem internally, within their own community with all the abuses that go on then they are for the larger population.
The lawnmower thing is actually hilarious, yeah buddy, good luck aiming while on that thing or chasing anyone down. Guess it's slightly more stable than horses though.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Niki2:
Hee, hee, hee...the one thing you point out as different about the FLDS was arranged marriages. Ooops; in Afghanistan when I was there, and no doubt still in the rural areas, marriages weren't just "arranged", potential wives were PAID FOR in "dowry", and sometimes it was like an auction, brides being offered numerous fees by several potential husbands, as I described in my post. That the old man upped his price because he thought I was the potential bride is an example.
Also, young women are forced into marriage virtually always with older men, and have no say whatsoever in who they marry. NOT any longer the way things are done in urban Afghanistan (or at least not as much, I hope!), but previously, and I'd bet still in the villages...
Remember too that until recently women had no rights whatsoever and were forced to wear that horrid head-to-toe chadri in public, and could never be seen by any male except relatives. No, treatment of women under Islamic law, especially as interpreted by the Taliban, is far more despicable than the FLDS ever dreamed of.
I was sad to see the comparison, but recognized it. (By the way, I was a "dunked" Mormon in my teens--dropped it in shock when I discovered their racist policies!) The one thing different that I know of with Afghanistan is that the leader doesn't take advantage of the women in the same way as I've read about in cults. Women are chattel, for sure, but the concept of multiple wives and incest wasn't something I heard about from anyone I know, or I saw around me back then.
And I THINK the tenants of Islam are more, uh, "respectable" if you will, in that they don't preach the same kind of insanity as many cults, or teachings put forth by one crazy person; Islam is interpreted differently, admittedly, but the basic teachings of Islam are at the root everywhere.
I think something we need to remember is you cannot effect social change at gunpoint. It only lends credibility to anyone who is going to oppose you.
Now, if Afghanistan grows an economy, one that requires dealing with the outside world... you can do things like, " if you want this trade deal, lets talk about human rights, or religious freedom, or womens rights "
Having a foreign military, particularly one that isn't going to stay there for decades to come ( I hope ) try to dictate change like that is crazy.
The US is empowering the extremists, and my prediction... within two years after the inevitable pullout ANY government there will fall, irregardless of whatever money or aid gets pumped in. There was a window of opportunity, that ball was dropped, and now ALL of it is for nothing. Once credibility was lost, that was it.
Either your with the terrorists, or ... your with the terrorists
Lets party like its 1939
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I have never actually read the Koran. But even if I did, there is the problem of translation and time which exists for all old texts. I have read several translations of the Tao which couldn't be more different. For example, one translation reads 'the superior man', the other 'the victorious general' - and the balance of the texts is geared to each interpretation.
My sense though is that there is a lot of cultural (archaic tribal) baggage that gets sold as religious; and historical (stoning - as in 'let he who is without sin ...') practice that has been taken literally instead of metaphorically.
The 'problem' if there is one may not be one of Islam.
As for the war itself, perhaps Obama doesn't want to leave a 'failed state' behind. As weak as it is, that is the only rationale I can think of to answer the question 'Why ?"
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Silence is consent.
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I think something we need to remember is you cannot effect social change at gunpoint.
Unfortunately, I must disagree with this, although not a lot - it's a damn piss poor way to do it, and it involves prettymuch killing EVERYONE who disagrees with you, which is a damned lot of folk usually and results in an epic slaughter.
Which has indeed happened historically in the middle east on a number of occasions.
But that's a road we shouldn't even be ON, much less travelling down, cause it leads to ugly places.
Imma share with you an excerpt from David Drakes: Cross the Stars
Available from the Baen Free Library here.
http://www.baen.com/library/0671578219/0671578219.htm
(Insert Shameless Plug for Baen Books here!)
Quote:
Aloud Pritchard said, "Well, I might disagree on moral grounds if I thought it would work, ah, madam. But since I never have known it to work in circumstances like yours on Tethys, I'll pretend to be a practical man and disagree on practical terms instead."
The tall woman paused in mid-stride as her brain correlated the words her ears had heard a moment before. She looked at the man who lounged at ease, smiling at her. "Major—" she began in a tone more diffident than that of her angry assurance an instant previous.
"Please," said Danny Pritchard. "That was Alois' little joke, I'm sure, when he announced I was coming. Mister Pritchard. Or Danny, which I'd prefer. But I'm not a soldier anymore."
Marilee sat down with the abruptness of a gun returning to battery. She laughed as she looked out the window through which she could see nothing but sky from her present low angle. "Well," she said, "Danny, I suppose you'd better explain that. I hadn't expected to hear from a mercenary that force doesn't accomplish anything."
"Ex-mercenary," Pritchard corrected. The smile was back. "And force accomplishes a lot of things. They just aren't the ones you want here. Bring in the Slammers and we kick ass for as long as you pay us. Six months, a year. And we kick ass even if the other side brings in mercs of their own—which they'll do—but that's not a problem, not if you've got us." Unit pride lasted even after the unit's work became a matter of distaste. Pride beamed now from Danny Pritchard's face, and his hand caressed a tank that only his mind could see.
"So," the man went on. He got up without thinking about the action because he was focused on plans, on possibilities. "There's what? Three hundred thousand people on Tethys?"
Marilee's eyes narrowed. "On the Council Islands, about. There's a lot more in little holdings on the unclaimed islands, but I don't think anyone can be sure of numbers."
"So," Pritchard repeated. The word was his equivalent of the Enter key when his mind was computing possibilities. "You want to kill fifty kay? Fifty thousand people, let's remember they're people for the moment."
"I don't want to kill anybody!" the woman snapped. She swung abruptly to her feet again. Her boots rapped on the inlaid floor over which her visitor's heels had glided unheard. "I don't even want to kill Bev Dyson. I grew up with him, after all, I . . . maybe he did kill my husband. But I don't want to know that for sure. And I don't want him killed."
"You see," said Danny Pritchard, as if he had not heard his companion expose a part of herself that she had not known existed, "if we go in quick and dirty, the only way that has a prayer of working is if we get them all. If we get everybody who opposes you, everybody related to them, everybody who called them master—everybody."
"They aren't all dangerous!" Marilee shouted. She turned to the wall of trophies and went on in nearly as loud a voice. "They aren't any of them dangerous, except maybe a few. What are you talking about?" She spun back to Pritchard.
The ex-soldier nodded in agreement. "They're not dangerous now, but they will be after the killing starts. Believe me—" he raised a hand to forestall another protest— "I've seen it often enNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Gino:Quote:
Right on, and oh, don't I wish. But I'm afraid that's a loooong time in the future, if at all. They are one of the poorest nations on earth.
if Afghanistan grows an economy, one that requires dealing with the outside world... you can do things like, " if you want this trade deal, lets talk about human rights, or religious freedom, or womens rights "
Rue:Quote:
You nailed it...something which all religions have in common, actually...just thinking of "Christianity" and homosexuality, for one teeeny example...
My sense though is that there is a lot of cultural (archaic tribal) baggage that gets sold as religious; and historical (stoning - as in 'let he who is without sin ...') practice that has been taken literally instead of metaphorically.
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Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Having a foreign military, particularly one that isn't going to stay there for decades to come ( I hope ) try to dictate change like that is crazy.
The US is empowering the extremists, and my prediction... within two years after the inevitable pullout ANY government there will fall, irregardless of whatever money or aid gets pumped in. There was a window of opportunity, that ball was dropped, and now ALL of it is for nothing. Once credibility was lost, that was it.
The government will likely fall and all of those "trained" fighters will then become Taliban, with their training and their weapons... that we paid for. FAIL
The Taliban still pays more than the Afghan army recruiters do, so the Afghan army is beginning to be populated with the most desperate citizens, the ones the Taliban do not want. FAIL
And how is this army that only holds a rifle so it can eat going to react to the first tight spot? FAIL
Many of our surge troops won't make it to to their destinations according to the US military, within the 18 month timeframe. FAIL
We have just told the Afghan people that we're not staying. FAIL
If that message was not clear enough to them then the Taliban will be happy to make it clearer. Our gift to the Taliban. FAIL
How much is being spent on this when we need health care, etc.? FAIL
Troops/civilians die for nothing. FAIL FAIL FAIL
I think Obama was seduced by McChrystal. He's an impressive general with an impressive resume. For someone who is as much about compromise and connecting both sides as Obama was when he came into office, it makes sense that he would trust/defer to him with this. Unfortunately, he also shortened the time frame needed for McChrystal's plans to really work. FAIL
This sickens/frustrates me as much as health care.
Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com
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Bah, his mistake was listening to McChrystal in the first place, the guys a monster - seriously, they don't give those stars out for humanitarian effort, in order to get that first one, you prettymuch gotta do something SO horrific that your loyalty to The Powers That Be can no longer be questioned.
As I said, look into how Patton and MacArthur got theirs, if you wanna know...
Even so, a man capable of horrible things, is also a man capable of great things, see also General Smedley Butler, Eisenhower, et al.
Seriously, he shoulda listened to Gates, who was nonpolitical and would at least TRY to do a halfway decent job of things even when handed a ridiculous and impossible task, instead of a loon like McChrystal, who thinks he's fighting the Crusades all over again, complete with a racist and religious intolerance which poisons the whole goddamn effort from the top down.
Besides which, his arrogance reminds me of two other military officers with rather interesting histories, General Wesley Clark, who's ego nearly started WW III - and mind you I got a blow by blow of THAT mess from the folks I was shipping cookies to bribe the locals with within days of it's happening, before the whitewash and coverup...
And Col Mike Steele, the idiot responsible for the disastrous and ill planned operation* shown in the movie Blackhawk Down, and continues his asshattery in service to this day, with lots of other nasty business in Iraq.
So, hell no, I wouldn't listen to a damn thing McChrystal had to say cause that line of thinking and tactical doctrine hasn't worked in thirty fuckin years, and it ain't gonna work now.
*Seriously - it was IDIOTIC to go showboating and use choppers in an urban environment in a fashion that required them to hover in place at what amounted to point blank range for guerilla/militia forces, presenting a tempting (and damned expensive, resource, financially and casualty-wise) shot they could neither resist nor miss - hollywood generalship at it's finest, hoorah and all that bullshit - when they shoulda used a fuckin local TRUCK and done a classic infiltration strike, but no... mister lets buck for promotion hadda go showboating with it, grrr.
-Frem
There always has to be a price.
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Darling: A German spy is giving away every one of our battle plans.
Melchett: You look surprised, Blackadder.
Blackadder: I certainly am sir. I didn't realize we had any battle plans.
Melchett: Of course we've got plans! How else do you think our battles are directed?
Blackadder: Our battles are directed, sir?
Melchett: Of course they are. Directed accoring to the grand plan.
Blackadder: Oh I see. And would that be the plan to continue with total slaughter until everybody's dead except Field Marshal Haig, Lady Haig, and their tortoise, Alan?
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