Surreal World Event Discussion

POSTED BY: HKCavalier
UPDATED: Thursday, July 1, 2004 01:03
VIEWED: 6443
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HKCAVALIER

Saturday, June 26, 2004 2:53 PM

Check out the web video at http://www.georgewbush.com/

What is up with that? Has Bush hired Andy Warhol to be his publicist? What is this doing on an official website? Doesn't
Bush/cheney have anything substantive to say? Does anyone find this string of sound bites particularly damning of any of the speakers (with the exception of the incoherent, hard to read stuff with Hitler)? Is this the state of political debate in this country? Making fun of people for getting emotional about their beliefs? "Coalition of the Wild-eyed?" Really? From watching that video I could accept "Coalition of the Perturbed" or "Coalition of the Rather Frustrated," but wild-eyed?

After my initial shock at the video's bizarre lack of, oh I don't know, any rational point, I begin to find its meaning for myself. It's all pretty Orwellian. One of the observable necessities of totalitarian regimes is to discredit and deny emotion. Emotion leads to dissent, emotion leads to holding your own opinion, all emotion must be channeled into the only acceptible emotion: love of the party.

(Total side note: it's very interesting that the right continually equates hating Bush with hating America, as if Bush and the Neo-cons are America incarnate and not just a faction.)

Getting back to that strange, strange video: labeling these men, who are noticeably upset about what the Bush administration is doing "wild-eyed" is really saying that anyone who opposes us is crazy/flaky/irrational/weak. It's like a bully on the playground laughing at the tears of a boy he just punched.

And to top it off did that "This is not a time for pessimism and rage, this is a time for optimism, steady leadership and progress" stuff sound even just a little like "War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Stregth?" Just a little?

May I lay down a few ground rules for any debate in this thread? Well, don't mind if I do:

Please don't post just to say another poster is full of . Bring something of your own to the table, please. Don't copy another post and disect it with a lot of "not necessarily's" and "I never said that's" and "You sir, are an ass's." M'kay? Play along, like we're all very wise and innerestin' people here and impress the lurkers with our wit and sagacity. How 'bout that?

Edit: I just checked it out again and they've added an explaination of sorts, a little preamble to let us know what we're looking at. Kinda mitigate the whole WTF factor, without saying anything of course.

Man-o-man, so Kerry denounced the ad, but didn't denounce people who compare Bush to Hitler. My, that's terrible, must mean that he agrees with the folks who make the comparison! Yeah, and I say Kerry is like the Rick Morranis character in Ghostbusters and Bush hasn't denounced me, so he must agree with me! Seriously, the press asked Kerry what he thought about the ad and he told 'em. I don't think they asked him what he thought of people comparing Bush to Hitler. Seems even the press have better things to do...

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

PETERMAC

Saturday, June 26, 2004 6:13 PM

Dear Hk

Yeah- surreal is the correct word - like something out of 1984. Should I be showing up for my three minute hate?

I can only sit here asking myself what could it possibly mean? Any theories?

Best-
Peter M.

ECGORDON

Saturday, June 26, 2004 6:46 PM

I suppose it might be more effective if George Bush was giving us "optimism, steady leadership, and progress." I haven't seen much of it though.

SOUPCATCHER

Saturday, June 26, 2004 9:34 PM

I didn't like this when I saw it a few days ago. But it's a tactic that is completely consistent with the strategies that Karl Rove has used in the past. And as a tactic, I think it's high risk/high reward. In some respects it's a brilliant bit of lawyering. I'm reminded of a leading question a prosecuter might use that is then objected to by the defense and the objection upheld by the judge who then instructs the jury to disregard the question. But the goal of the prosecuter is simply for the jury to hear the question and have the information in the back of their minds, not for the question to be answered. Watch the ad without sound, simply watch the images, don't even read the text. What is the message you are left with? The implied message is that all these individuals share something in common.

But of course, that's not the intent of the ad, at least according to the talking points released by the campaign. I get e-mails from GeorgeWBush.com. Not sure how I got on the list. I usually delete them. But here is an excerpt from their most recent e-mail:

Quote:
On Thursday, the campaign launched a web video titled Kerry's Coalition of the Wild-eyed. The video featured Democrats who support John Kerry making negative and baseless attacks against the President. Interspersed in the video were segments of two ads that appeared on a website sponsored by MoveOn.org - a group campaigning for Kerry - in January.
On Friday night, John Kerry's campaign denounced our use of these ads, and called that use "disgusting."
The Kerry campaign says, "The use of Adolf Hitler by any campaign, politician or party is simply wrong."
We agree. These ads, like much of the hate-filled, angry rhetoric of Kerry's coalition of the Wild-eyed, are disgusting.

The rest of the e-mail gives examples of Democrat attacks against George Bush and his administration. As an instrument of plausible deniability the e-mail will probably be effective and will be used by staunch supporters to support this ad. But the take-away message is still the same; all the people in the ad share something in common.

Will this ad be effective? Well that's where the high risk part comes in. I doubt that it will convince any of Kerry's supporters to vote for Bush. If what people take away from this ad is, "People who support Kerry compare Bush to Hitler" then it might disgust moderates and swing them to the Republican ticket. If what people take away from this ad instead is, "The Bush campaign is comparing Kerry and other Democrats to Hitler" then it might disgust moderates and some Republicans who are leery of Bush in general and convince them to stay home in November. Or it may simply have a null effect, which is the result I'm inclining towards.

As a side note, I am intrigued by the tact that the campaigns are taking, at least as evidenced by their web sites. Bush's website leaves no doubt who he is running against, two pictures of Kerry (not counting the ad) and two additional links to rebuttals of Kerry positions. Kerry's website has no pictures of Bush and one press release in which Bush's name appears in the title. There are more pictures of Kerry than Bush on both websites.

I shaved off my beard for you, devil woman!

AURAPTOR

Saturday, June 26, 2004 10:33 PM

Clearly, the tone of the Left is mirrored by the hysterical rants of Hitler. He fabricated , with great emotion , a mythical enemy for Germany by blaming the Jews for just about everything.With equally mindless and unsubstantiated zeal, the Gore's, More's and Kennedy's ( not in video, I know ) of the Left have persecuted an assault on Bush that exceeds any rationale. Gore, Kennedy and even Kerry were most supportive for the war, fearful of Saddam and his WMD program when the political climate suited them. However, when it became clear that the economy wasn't going to be an issue for them, they fell back on the only thing they had..... mindless vitriol aimed at Bush.

Is the ad a master piece? Not by a long shot. I think much more could have been done to drive home the intended(?) point. Like quotes from Gore and others detailing how dangerous Saddam is and the need to - if need be - us ALL force necessary to take him out. After 9-11, Bush ( and others ) decided that it was too risky to allow things in Iraq to remain as is. Clearly, THAT is a debatable choice , but to carry it to the extreme and question Bush's motives... demands a far greater amount of evidence. THIS is where the Left's claims come utterly unglued.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

HKCAVALIER

Saturday, June 26, 2004 11:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Clearly, the tone of the Left is mirrored by the hysterical rants of Hitler.

Really? Clearly? I hesitate to respond to your post, AURaptor, but this Hitler line demands comment. I notice that you've posted on several threads in the past hour or so and in each your rhetoric has been, if not a little hysterical at least a bit inflamitory. It's fair to imagine that I've caught you in a bad mood. So if you're just really pissed off and using the website to get it out of your system I'm totally with you on that. Some of the things said by self-described liberals on this site have been pretty over the top. The world is going a little bit crazy these days and I don't know what to do with all my rage and indignation myself sometimes.

So okay, it's all well and good to rant about Adolf Hitler on a bb to blow off steam, but don't you think a video on the official Bush/Cheney re-election website should be a little more responsible? Do you think such comparisons are worthy of public discourse? Do you think they should be comparing prominant American politicians to Hitler on the nightly news, for instance? Or would you compare Gore to Hitler in real life to your friends, family, or coworkers? Do you think that the average Republican (the presumptive audience for the video) would know what you're talking about?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

QUICKSAND

Sunday, June 27, 2004 12:45 AM

I fail to see how Hitler's blaming of the Jews (an entire subset of the German population) and Gore's attack on Bush (a singular individual, who was attacked during televised debates because he couldn't answer any of the questions with any authority) are similar.

We're all aware that YOU'RE convinced they're similar, but maybe if you could come back with some facts to back up your Facist rant, AURaptor, we can have a discussion.

As it is, here are the facts: You, the right, are blaming, "Liberals" for everything that is wrong with the U.S. We, the left, are blaming "Bush" for nothing more than being a world-class idiot.

Now I want you to look hard into the deep, lengthy college education I'm sure you don't have, and tell me which one more closely resembles "Mein Kampf." Thanks.

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, June 27, 2004 2:15 AM

Thanks, Quicksand, I thought placing Bush in the role of Jew to the Democrats' Hitler was pretty outrageous as well. Talk about your persecution complex! But it speaks to one of the points I raised at the top of this thread: this peculiar totalitarian-style equation of Bush with the american people. Somehow, an attack on Bush is an attack on America. If you attack Bush, you're committing treason. If you hate Bush, then if follows, as night follows day, that you hate America. It'd be funny if it wasn't so spooky and universally adhered to by the neo-cons.

(Side note: just look at the Michael Moore threads. Michael Moore makes a movie trying to prove that George W. is a bad man and look at all the people who acuse him of hating America because of it. I'm not making this stuff up folks, read the threads!)

If Bush is a whole people, then the comparison is not quite as absurd. But he ain't "a people." He's a guy. He heads a political faction. At the moment, his faction holds power in Washington. There are other factions, for instance, that think Michael Moore is the bee's knees. All of 'em are americans.

What's more, I see a disturbing tendancy to equate rhetorical attacks upon Bush with terrorist attacks upon our Nation. Hey folks, even though it's the same verb, it means two different things. Context, people. Same goes for the word "hate." Plenty of folks may say that they hate our president without 'em planning terrorist strikes against the Whitehouse. But the defenders of Bush will say liberal hate and terrorist hate is the same, Bush and the american people are one and the same (L'État, c'est Bush), and Gore is like Hitler.

Make the pie higher! Put food on your family!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

JCKNIFE

Sunday, June 27, 2004 2:33 AM

Bummer, I was hoping this thread would help me explore this problem I'm having with talking feta cheese and the fact that Pac Man is not helping with the lawn mowing like he used to.

BTW, HKCavalier--way to represent old-school. Buckaroo Bonzai is too cool.

HKCAVALIER

Sunday, June 27, 2004 3:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by JCKnife:
Bummer, I was hoping this thread would help me explore this problem I'm having with talking feta cheese and the fact that Pac Man is not helping with the lawn mowing like he used to.

BTW, HKCavalier--way to represent old-school. Buckaroo Bonzai is too cool.

LOL! Seriously though, your personal struggles with a dairy product and a video game character hardly qualify as a "world event," JC. Unless there's something far more insidious in your story than immediately meets the eye...

HKCavalier

John Valuk is dead, he fell on his head.

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