Well... here 'Fahrenheit 9/11' is.
POSTED BY: Quicksand
UPDATED: Thursday, March 30, 2006 17:02
VIEWED: 28615
PAGE 2 of 13
Quote:
Originally posted by LJSquared:
Excuse me while I gauge my eyeballs out
Just wondering what measurement you got, when you "gauged" your eyeballs?
Those are the only points that got to you? Britiney and the Saudis?
BTW: That questionable relationship with the Saudi's is something our government has cultivated and worked on for decades. Before G.W. Bush, the Clintons, Bush senior, the Reagans, and the Carters all wined and dined the Saudi Royals. This isn't anything new, and do you know why? Because everytime gas prices go up, every mindless twit in this country blames the government! We don't want to know what it costs to keep oil prices down as long as we can all drive our big SUVs and sports cars!!!! We have the cheapest gas in the world, but we all bitch if it goes up 20 cents, and we drive the biggest gas guzzlers! Hypocrites! Maybe you should GOUGE your eyes out!
I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.
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FYI, the wife and I both drive 4 cylinder cars, car pool whenever possible, and laugh at those fools driving gas guzzling barges.
We even considered a hybrid like the Toyota Prius, until we read reports that landfills full of worn out fuel cells will do more damage to the environment, than an equal number of efficient traditional gas powered cars.
I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.
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macbaker,
Give me a break. How long have you been waiting to pounce on someone with that load of crap? Tink is absolutely right, and Tink's comment was not partisan at all. But, you took it as opportunity to ram your extremist politics down our collective throats.
It's propaganda when it comes from the left, but god forbid I call Debbie's piece propaganda. It starts with the usual attack/comparison of Bill Clinton. For all the effort that these typical right wing diatribes put into smearing Clinton, they are always heavily biased with little or no substance. I love how she opens up her essay with the response of a 6 year old, "Clinton took vacations too." Vacations aren't the issue. The issue is the amount of vacation time that Bush took when we *really* needed him to be president and not shirking his responsibility.
The minute that this movie was released, the right wing fanatics started blogging on any and every forum on the web to discredit any opinion that differed from their own. If Michael Moore is such a crack pot, what are you/they so afraid of? This country was founded on free speech and debate, but that seems to be something that the right cannot tolerate from anyone with an opposing or different view. If I disagree with Ann Coulter (and I often do), does that mean that I should stop calling her a columnist/pundit and start calling her a propaganda machine? No, because, for good or bad, she has a right to her opinions. I could write for a week continuously about the nonsense that woman spews. But to dismiss anyone completely is to kill free debate -- something this polarized country desparately needs right now.
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If you're not going to see the movie because of negative reviews, that's fine. That's the purpose of reading reviews in the first place. But I think it's silly to cut and paste these long quotes from other people into a thread. Link to them. Summarize them. All you're really doing is passing along second hand information. I'm more interested in what fireflyfans thought of the movie, not reviewers who fireflyfans happened to read. It looks suspiciously like trying to drown discourse through a huge data dump. Which I have no problem with if it's your own data dump.
[editted to add: This in no way applies to Firefly related material. I love all the re-posting and clipping and cutting and pasting that goes on here since this is my first stop for any and all things Firefly]
Eh. So that rant out of the way 
. I went to the matinee to see the movie not quite knowing what to expect. I was aware of much of the information in the film but a lot of the actual footage was new to me. I'm still trying to sort out how coherent Moore's thesis is but there are certain scenes that really stuck out. The scene from the floor of Congress after the 2000 election: minority Representative after minority Representative coming up to protest what happened in Florida in regards to disenfranchisement of African-American voters and being told by Al Gore, acting President of that session, that there was nothing that could be done because they could not find one Senator to co-sign. It was just surreal. The scenes from Flint: lines at the welfare office, rundown abandoned houses, huge unemployment numbers. Those scenes I got. I understood the point he was trying to make and felt he used the medium well.
Areas where I think he didn't do too good a job were the whole document blacking out part and the chaining of the people from Bush, to the Bin Ladens, to the Saudi Royals, to the Taliban. It was either too much exposition on a point that was easily made (Bush's let's-skip-our-flight-physical buddy) or too many different people in too short a period of time where I couldn't keep track of the players without a scorecard. That was the one area of the movie where I felt it bogged down a bit, just from a flow point of view.
I'll have to reflect more on the cognitive side of things. My immediate reaction is more based on how emotionally charged the movie is. In that, Moore did a good job - he really does know how to lead you through an emotional roller coaster.
I shaved off my beard for you, devil woman!
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I agree completely that Debbie's review is right wing, and YES it IS propaganda!!!! DUH! I bet that takes the wind out of your sails. It certainly makes your response more impotent!
Your fatal flaw in logic, is assuming that I share her views! I just felt it was important to see things from an opposing point of view. Moore's opinions obviously come from an extreme left wing point of view. It seemed only proper to play devil's advocate, and give a response from the extreme right. Both sides are wrong, and they always have been! One side believes in some mythical socialist paradise, and the other believes a facist kingdom is the cure for everyone's problems! The Democrats don't have all of the answers, and clearly, neither do the Republicans. The majority of the population tends to steer towards the middle, which is why moderate candidates (or candidates that appear moderate, like Gore and Bush both tried to convince us they were) win presidental elections! The reason the last election was so close, is because both Bush and Gore convinced enough voters that they were moderate. No candidate will win a presidental election on a true "left wing" or "right wing" platform!
Sorry, I'm not the easy "extremst" target you would like to believe I am. That would make it easy for you to dismiss. The truth is, I dislike Micheal Moore for the same reason that I dislike Rush Limbaugh. Both twist facts to convince small minded lemmings to follow thier cause. It takes a lot more than that to get me to follow anyone. Frankly, I pity anyone that does. If you wish to believe Moore's tripe, you have my pity!!!
I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.
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You know, this is why Political Threads (including political threads disgused as movie reviews) shouldn't be posted on forums of this kind. It never goes well.
I'm more than willing to agree to disagree, and let this lame thread die the quick pathetic death it deserves!
Opinions are like a$$h*les, and EVERYONE (including me) that posted in this thread is an A$$H*LE! BUT, the biggest A$$H*LE is the person that started this thread in the first place. What did you expect! Peace and harmony??? LMAO!
So. now that we know that anyone posting in this thread is just another A$$H*LE, post away!!!!!
I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.
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Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:
I agree completely that Debbie's review is right wing, and YES it IS propaganda!!!! DUH! I bet that takes the wind out of your sails. It certainly makes your response more impotent!
##LOL! It might, except that you missed the point entirely.
Your fatal flaw in logic, is assuming that I share her views! I just felt it was important to see things from an opposing point of view. Moore's opinions obviously come from an extreme left wing point of view. It seemed only proper to play devil's advocate,
##Give it a rest. You are not moderate and that wasn't the point to your three page cut-n-paste.
and give a response from the extreme right. Both sides are wrong, and they always have been! One side believes in some mythical socialist paradise, and the other believes a facist kingdom is the cure for everyone's problems! The Democrats don't have all of the answers, and clearly, neither do the Republicans. The majority of the population tends to steer towards the middle, which is why moderate candidates (or candidates that appear moderate, like Gore and Bush both tried to convince us they were) win presidental elections! The reason the last election was so close, is because both Bush and Gore convinced enough voters that they were moderate. No candidate will win a presidental election on a true "left wing" or "right wing" platform!
#That's not true. A true moderate is going to have a tough time in November. On which points are moderate views going to capture a majority? Domestic economic policy, global foriegn policy, women's rights, religious issues...
Sorry, I'm not the easy "extremst" target you would like to believe I am.
##I think you are. If you're so middle of the road, then prove it. Give us your opinions on the war in Iraq. Do you support it? Was it justified? Is it about oil? Was it intended to divert attention? What about the nonexistent (or just extremely weak connection) to alcaida? What about the non existent weapons of mass destruction? What is your opinion of Richard Clarke? Is he telling the truth? Or, is he just a liberal trying to damage Bush's creditability before the election?
That would make it easy for you to dismiss. The truth is, I dislike Micheal Moore for the same reason that I dislike Rush Limbaugh. Both twist facts to convince small minded lemmings to follow thier cause. It takes a lot more than that to get me to follow anyone. Frankly, I pity anyone that does. If you wish to believe Moore's tripe, you have my pity!!!
##You're plenty easy to dimiss. :-) And, I think for myself.
I'd given some thought to movin' off the edge -- not an ideal location -- thinkin' a place in the middle.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SoupCatcher:
I'm more interested in what fireflyfans thought of the movie, not reviewers who fireflyfans happened to read.
Good deal, SoupCatcher. I'm interested in that too. I saw it tonight with my son and husband, and it was definitely something I would recommend to others. It's hard to describe. It's not the kind of movie you come home from and say "Gee, what an awesome movie!" because it wasn't the typical movie-going experience, that's for sure. But I think that everyone should see it just for the different perspective it offers. I kept wondering "Why haven't I seen this footage before?" I'm not talking about the parts that Moore put together for it, but the footage of the various public officials and the happenings in Iraq.
The scenes that chilled me the most had to do with the military recruitment tactics -- something I had no clue I'd be seeing based on previews, reviews, etc. I know that for a lot of people that might be a side note, but I sat and watched this movie sitting next to my 15-year-old son. He started high school this year, and he has been absolutely bombarded by military recruiters at his school. They are there all the time, and of course they hand out the coolest pins, calendars, folders, pens, lanyards, etc. I've seen the brochures they give him at least once a month, and I have to say that I've found it very chilling that they are so aggressive and paint such a rosy picture at a time when they know so many kids are dying in Iraq (and in Afghanistan). I don't want to sound like I'm knocking the military here and I don't mean any disrespect to those who are serving or who wish to serve. But I do think that selling this choice to freshman as the equivalent of a real-life video game is irresponsible, and I admit that I've been worried my son would get swept up in the romance that they are trying to sell without considering the reality of what this choice would mean. It's sort of like selling teenage motherhood to a 15-year-old girl as "hey, it'll be like having a live doll you can dress" without mentioning the responsibility of being a parent. But watching those recruiters in action, targeting poor neighborhoods, telling teenagers that the Marines could help them with their music careers (!!??!!), etc. really put things in perspective for my son (while scaring the
out of me as a parent -- but don't tell him I said that -- you know how 15-year-olds are ). I think the strongest points to the movie had to do with the weak link between Iraq and the war on terrorism and also the manipulation of the public. Of course Saddam was a horrible dictator -- being against the war in Iraq doesn't mean that you liked Saddam, for goodness sakes! But to see the footage of Powell and Rice mere months before 9/11 saying that Iraq had no WMD and then seeing us go to war with them on the basis of WMD really sends a shiver down the spine. I do believe Richard Clarke -- I mean, how many of us have brought issues to management only to have them ignore us completely because our findings didn't mesh with their focused goal?
I've watched this progression in horror myself: Ok, we're going to war for WMD cuz if we don't Saddam will destroy us all. Oh no, wait! There aren't any WMD. Ok then, um, er, let's make this a war against Saddam-as-Al Qaida-darling. No wait! He rejected involvement with Al Qaida (guess secular dictators don't much care for religious extremists that would strip them of their booze and luxurious amenities). OK, so then, um...I know...we'll make this a war for the liberation of the Iraqi people. Yay!!! Except that if we really just wanted to liberate the Iraqi people, then why did we base the war on bogus WMD and Al Qaida theories? Sigh. Do we all have attention deficit disorder? I think the movie did a great job at re-capping this progression. We're all so busy these days that we have the attention spans of nervous gnats, and it was good to see the re-cap of just how this great fleec
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3000 people died on September 11th 2001. Because of that, we fought back. We were attacked, and we fought and are still fighting back.
Even if Bush's motives are less than pure, even if Halliburton makes a fortune, the question is not what their motives are, but what they accomplish.
So far, Afghanistan and Iraq have both been liberated from brutal tyrannies. (Something the left is supposed to care more about than we on the right.) There have been no follow on attacks here, yet.
Yet because it was done by someone other than themselves, or for some imagined alterior motive, it is somehow wrong to defend yourself and liberate brutalized folks around the world.
It is an Us versus Them world. Not by our choice, but by the design and choice of the terrorists. The more I see the kinds of excesses that is widely accepted as gospel by the political left, I am left with the only rational conclusion available. They are simply on the other side. Whether I want to or not, I am forced to question their patriotism, their intelligence and their sanity. Simply because I see no evidence of any of them.
The scatter shot approach that Moore has adopted is contradictory within itself. He makes a whole list of charges against Bush, half of which contradict the other half. The only constant in the whole thing is that Moore hates Bush, which I already knew.
And considering that Richard Clarke, no friend of Bush, has taken responsibility for sending the bin Ladan's home, and that more recent reports does show a relationship between Saddam and Usama, the recent discoveries of Sarin and mustard gas shells, I can't honestly trust Moore anyway.
I really think this is going to backfire badly on Kerry, unfortunately. I don't think he deserves it, but when his own national party chairman comes out in support of this film, a lot of people are going to associate the Democratic party with the lunatic fringes of the political left, and see them more as supporters of conspiracy theories and the enemy, rather than this country. It makes that party look like the tin foil hat crowd, if not treasonous turncoats.
I don't think most people will want to be associated with such a party, and will avoid voting for it in November. They may not vote for Bush, but even staying home is a vote. So enjoy the show while it lasts.
"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"
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Quote:
Originally posted by MacBaker:
Those surrounding me were literally the "Great Unwashed." They smelled as if they hadn’t taken a shower in weeks, not because they couldn’t afford running water, but because it’s cool to be dirty and nasty in the far-left. Not for any good reason, but just because they can. With their awful stench wafting universal, they want to make the rest of us as miserable and skanky as the Hate-America crowd.
It’s emblematic of the filmmaker and his fake-umentary. Michael Moore and "Fahrenheit 9-11" stink.
LOL -- Sorry to disappoint you, sir, but I showered between getting home from work and seeing the movie. And the only things I smelled in the theatre were popcorn and someone's Vanilla-scented perfume (which kinda made me want a chocolate chip cookie). Not sure where you saw the movie, but it was a lot of hygenic, family-type folks where I saw it.
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