USA social commentary - a visiting European view

POSTED BY: kpo
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 9, 2009 23:23
VIEWED: 4974
PAGE 1 of 1

KPO

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 4:03 AM

A random but interesting quote I came across from an European guy (French) visiting America to research the development of a video game.

"For Heavy Rain, we spent time in an east coast city for three weeks with cameras, and it was a real shock to see the poverty, the ghettos, the abandoned factories, and the sense of danger that the social disparity creates. When you live in Europe, the US is most of the time depicted as the country of success, power, money, heroes saving the world, and sexy girls. Discovering the social side of America that you rarely see in movies was something absolutely scary."

Heads should roll

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 5:20 AM

As someone who travels often to Europe, I humbly suggest that the visitor visit Europe at some point.

I mean, the film image of France is not exactly reality either, or Britain for that matter.

The running gag is "Welcome to Europe, your robber will be with you shortly." Which is *so* true, so I have to take this view with a grain of salt.

Best of Europe: Trains
Worst of Europe: Sanitation

ECGORDON

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 1:01 PM

It also depends on what movies and television shows he's seen. I've seen the poverty, crime and desperation of America portrayed many times. Obviously he's never seen "The Wire."

NIKI2

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 5:53 PM

Personally, I think the crime and poverty in our country gets plenty of press and is shown in lots of movies and TV series. I'm surprised he was surprised. The people I know in England and Europe wouldn't be, and Europe certainly has its own share. Strange comment.

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 10:03 PM

Niki

I've run into this attitude a lot actually. The thing is, glamorous images get replayed. Depressing stuff doesn't. Not surprising people outside the US knows who John Singleton is, but are all too familiar with happy ending Spielberg. Okay, objectively I think Spielberg is a better director, but that would be in spite of his endings, not because of them.

RUE

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 10:19 PM

Even if you look at the average run-of-the-mill US TV show, you'll see mainly statistical anomalies. I'm thinking about 'Friends' where the struggling 20-somethings lived in NY apartments that, in reality, only the well-off could afford. In real life they would have been living in shared apartments with bedrooms the size of closets. But you don't have to restrict yourself to 'Friends' to see it, it's endemic all over the entertainment world.

I wonder how many examples of exceptions we could come up with ? For myself, the only one I can think of that was closest to looking like a 'normal' family was the show 'Roseanne'. But that was years ago.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 10:23 PM

Subjects vs citizens.

Slaves vs free people.

OLDENGLANDDRY

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 11:02 PM

Wulfenstar v reality.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 11:04 PM

Right....

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 11:04 PM

Right....

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 11:18 PM

I think that the image that most people (outside the US) have of your country is that it is very, very wealthy and that people live in large houses and have lots of stuff. Most films that depict poverty as something that can be overcome - if you work hard and believe, you can do anything.

The Wire was actually quite confronting because that image was completely shattered. Not just the ghettos, but the lives of the police themselves, the dockworkers.

I've only been to the US briefly, so can't really comment. My only thought was about how many really obese people I saw - but then I had been living in Europe and Europeans are a lot smaller. Aussies are a pack of fatties as well.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 11:22 PM

Lol

And what we hear about Britain is that you guys live in peace and happiness under your monarchy.

That your state leaders know whats best.

And you wonder why people here are comparing the current situation to the American Revolution? Tea Parties ect?

We are our own people.

Leave us alone.

KWICKO

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 11:30 PM

Quote:

We are our own people.

Leave us alone.

Where have I heard that before?

Oh yeah - Iraq!

RUE

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 11:32 PM

Yes, leave us alone. We love our isolation, absent any reality checks. It's what makes us so freakin' crazy.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, December 2, 2009 11:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Lol

And what we hear about Britain is that you guys live in peace and happiness under your monarchy.

That your state leaders know whats best.

And you wonder why people here are comparing the current situation to the American Revolution? Tea Parties ect?

We are our own people.

Leave us alone.

Was that a reply to me? I'm not from Britain.

You sound quite defensive about your country - people are entitled to their opinion if they are visiting, although admittedly no-one loves hearing criticism of their country, it happens. No where is perfect.

Doesn't sound like anyone was advocating you do anything - the person was expressing some surprise at the poverty that they saw \as being unexpected. Given the image depicted in films I can understand that.

It might surprise you that not all people with British accents are criminal masterminds

KPO

Thursday, December 3, 2009 12:16 AM

Quote:
The running gag is "Welcome to Europe, your robber will be with you shortly."

What part of Europe are you familiar with DT? I hope you're not comparing America to Albania or something like that.

Quote:
Worst of Europe: Sanitation

??

Quote:
I'm surprised he was surprised. The people I know in England and Europe wouldn't be, and Europe certainly has its own share. Strange comment.

As a European I can understand it. The crime and poverty in the US is represented in film etc. but only in certain types - by the time you are old enough to view something like The Wire you may have already grown up with a very different image of America.

I can remember as a kid hearing my older brother make an offhand comment about the serious criminality in New York, and I protested saying New York was not at all like that...

So it's definitely possible to develop a naive, outside view of america as the 'pinnacle of human civilisation'. In my view there are two Americas, and at first they are hard to reconcile with each other (to outside, European eyes at least).

Heads should roll

BYTEMITE

Thursday, December 3, 2009 12:41 AM

Go to Amsterdam sometime when the canals are low. Aside from the smell, what you'll find on the bottom are piles upon PILES of stolen bicycles. In Italy, if you stay in a hotel, housekeeping is notorious for theft.

Every city in Europe has it's bad parts of town. I've been to London slightly more often than I've been to other European cities, definitely true there. I don't see so much sanitation problem in London (maybe I'm not going to the right places?) but elsewhere, yes.

I don't think European cities are worse than American cities, I think this just illustrates that these problems are universal.

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, December 3, 2009 1:37 AM

Quote:
KPO
What part of Europe are you familiar with DT? I hope you're not comparing America to Albania or something like that.

Ahh, the prejudices arise..

Most of it, actually. I tend to get robbed in *western* europe. It's a pretty common experience for americans.

There are many Americas, and there are two New Yorks. The one I'm from has about 10 million people who live in settlements ranging from a few hundred to a few hundred thousand. Then there's a city of around 7 million, which is like an alien planet to me. I've been there several times, it doesn't begin to feel normal.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, December 3, 2009 3:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Go to Amsterdam sometime when the canals are low. Aside from the smell, what you'll find on the bottom are piles upon PILES of stolen bicycles. In Italy, if you stay in a hotel, housekeeping is notorious for theft.

Every city in Europe has it's bad parts of town. I've been to London slightly more often than I've been to other European cities, definitely true there. I don't see so much sanitation problem in London (maybe I'm not going to the right places?) but elsewhere, yes.

I don't think European cities are worse than American cities, I think this just illustrates that these problems are universal.

A lot of these posts sound highly defensive - "your country is just as crappy as ours" or something to that effect.

My understanding is the original poster was commenting on the difference between America as depicted in the media, and America in reality. Not whether Europe is better than the US or vice versa.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, December 3, 2009 3:22 AM

Re: The Wire.

You think watchin it is hard - try living it.
I was THERE, for most of the events that show is based around, and a bit player in one or two of em.

I'm still slightly of the mind that the kindest reform you could bring to that city would be nuking it.

-F

BYTEMITE

Thursday, December 3, 2009 3:27 AM

Quote:
A lot of these posts sound highly defensive - "you're country is just as crappy as ours" or something to that effect.

Why would I care about that? I could hardly be considered a patriot.

I have been to these countries. I tended to observe more the fascinating culture, art, architecture and history, but I'm not blind. I saw problems. They existed. I'm commenting on them.

Quote:
My understanding is the original poster was commenting on the difference between America as depicted in the media, and America in reality. Not whether Europe is better than the US or vice versa

Then perhaps our exported image is very different from our internal image.

KWICKO

Thursday, December 3, 2009 3:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Subjects vs citizens.

Slaves vs free people.

Wulfie, can you point out to me who the king of France is?

Also, can you point out to me where in the French constitution it lists the French people as "subjects" and not citizens, and also where it lists them as "slaves" and not "free people"? I'd really appreciate it if you could find that for me. Surely in your vast knowledge of how Europe works, you must know the ins and outs of how the French system is set up, yes?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

KWICKO

Thursday, December 3, 2009 3:33 AM

Quote:

So it's definitely possible to develop a naive, outside view of america as the 'pinnacle of human civilisation'.

Hell, Wulfie has developed such a view, and he purports to be FROM HERE!

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, December 3, 2009 3:40 AM

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Eagleland

KWICKO

Thursday, December 3, 2009 3:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
KPO
What part of Europe are you familiar with DT? I hope you're not comparing America to Albania or something like that.

Ahh, the prejudices arise..

Most of it, actually. I tend to get robbed in *western* europe. It's a pretty common experience for americans.

Which is exactly like saying that it's a common experience in New York City, for people not from New York. Reason you get robbed in a strange place is because YOU look like an out-of-towner, and therefore not likely to stick around to testify or press charges. Pretty typical for any city I've been to - you get to the "touristy" areas, and you look like a mark, so the sharks come in for a bite.

Quote:

There are many Americas, and there are two New Yorks. The one I'm from has about 10 million people who live in settlements ranging from a few hundred to a few hundred thousand. Then there's a city of around 7 million, which is like an alien planet to me. I've been there several times, it doesn't begin to feel normal.

See, I feel most at home in the cities. I grew up in small towns (a few hundred) and small cities (40,000), but I've always felt most at home in places like Austin (1 million) or Los Angeles. I've never been mugged in any of them.

KWICKO

Thursday, December 3, 2009 3:43 AM

Quote:
I could hardly be considered a patriot.

It bothers me that you would say that, Byte. You ARE a patriot. Just because you're willing to acknowledge your country's warts and problems doesn't mean you don't love America.

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, December 3, 2009 4:39 AM

Mike,

Living in town bugs me. I can't handle it. 200 people. I want to get a place out of town ;)

Cities? I'm good for a weekend. That's about it.

Oh and theft happens everywhere, but I've found that it's a major facet of european life. Unfortunately, I think it's a side effect of public transportation, which overall I'm in favor of. But it does make crime a lot easier.

Oh, and Herman Van Rompuy is the King of France.

Magonsdaughter,

Sometimes you say things that make people think you're british, an occasional britism, or outright statements of a british nature:

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

I would never vote Tory (if I still lived in the UK).
Quote:

and several others like that. I gather you lived in the UK for some time from the comments. I assumed that you had grown up in britain and moved to Australia at a later age.

You mentioned being under "thatcher's reign" for a long time, but I would hazard a guess that you were not in Britain under Tony Blair, since you seem to have a relatively high opinion of him (not to say "high" overall, just relative to people who lived in Britain under Tony Blair, Labour or not, whose opinion of Blair is something that Americans who lived under Bush can easily sympathize with.)

Anyway, just pointing out the source of the confusion, and the constant references people make to you as british. It's not the ignorance of the world, we get a lot of aussies, here in the US, and in Europe, the land of Oz gets a lot of coverage overall, as our own evil overlord, Rupert Murdoch, is from down under. Just so you know, it ain't just Farscape.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, December 3, 2009 5:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Then perhaps our exported image is very different from our internal image.

I guess the media image that you get is tempered by your own reality, but for those outside the US, it isn't. What you see in Hollywood movies is the image that most people would have of the US, just like your image of my country is probably based on the little amounts of media that you see ie that travesty of a film with nicole kidman and wolverine, which is about 0 on the reality rating.

eeek. my grammar

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, December 3, 2009 5:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

Magonsdaughter,

Sometimes you say things that make people think you're british, an occasional britism, or outright statements of a british nature:

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

I would never vote Tory (if I still lived in the UK).
Quote:

and several others like that. I gather you lived in the UK for some time from the comments. I assumed that you had grown up in britain and moved to Australia at a later age.

You mentioned being under "thatcher's reign" for a long time, but I would hazard a guess that you were not in Britain under Tony Blair, since you seem to have a relatively high opinion of him (not to say "high" overall, just relative to people who lived in Britain under Tony Blair, Labour or not, whose opinion of Blair is something that Americans who lived under Bush can easily sympathize with.)

Anyway, just pointing out the source of the confusion, and the constant references people make to you as british. It's not the ignorance of the world, we get a lot of aussies, here in the US, and in Europe, the land of Oz gets a lot of coverage overall, as our own evil overlord, Rupert Murdoch, is from down under. Just so you know, it ain't just Farscape.

Oh, except I keep pointing out that I'm not British. I make comments about Britain, because I've lived there and experienced life there and if the topic is about the UK, I'll respond. I also talk a lot about the US, in complete ignorance usually, but that never stops me from commenting.

Not many topics come up about Australia, so I just talk about whatever, based on whatever I know. I was suprised to get the old 'kiss your queens arse then" response from Wulfenwhatever.

I'm not sure what happens in the US, but British and American news are reported here, and we would discuss stuff. "Hey, Obama is King now" or whatever. So assuming that because someone speaks about a country they are from there, seems a little odd to me.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

KWICKO

Thursday, December 3, 2009 5:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

...just like your image of my country is probably based on the little amounts of media that you see ie that travesty of a film with nicole kidman and wolverine...

Dang it - you mean you're not all hell-for-leather crazy drivers looking for the last stash of gasoline to fuel the last of the V8 interceptors after the apocalypse?

There go my vacation plans...

;)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, December 3, 2009 9:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:

...just like your image of my country is probably based on the little amounts of media that you see ie that travesty of a film with nicole kidman and wolverine...

Dang it - you mean you're not all hell-for-leather crazy drivers looking for the last stash of gasoline to fuel the last of the V8 interceptors after the apocalypse?

There go my vacation plans...

;)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

Oh yes, that's all quite real.

Now where did I park my gyrokopter?

KWICKO

Thursday, December 3, 2009 1:02 PM

Whew - THAT's a relief!

HERO

Thursday, December 3, 2009 1:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Discovering the social side of America that you rarely see in movies was something absolutely scary."

He doesn't watch the right movies.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

HERO

Thursday, December 3, 2009 1:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Dang it - you mean you're not all hell-for-leather crazy drivers looking for the last stash of gasoline to fuel the last of the V8 interceptors after the apocalypse?

Everybody knows that Autralian culture is best demonstrated by two movies: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096486/

and

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100608/

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, December 3, 2009 1:34 PM

My job requires occasional travel around the US, which I detest, but do out of necessity. I get to go to about 10-15 different cities and towns a year. One thing I like to do in my "free time" is get out of the hotel and walk the streets of the city. My experience is that people are generally the same everywhere, mostly very nice actually, and every place has good and bad parts of town. Recently I found myself in Decatur, Georgia for three days of business. I walked the streets there and came across many Civil War sites with cannons, statues, and plaques. I read them, and many made me almost weep. I felt like I was standing on sacred and hallow ground, considering the events that took place there 150 years ago. Buildings and courthouses also were very historical. I did sense a strong feeling of pride and good citizenry from the folks there, just like I experienced in Louisville, St. Louis, Savannah, and Jacksonville earlier this year. I'm not knocking Europe at all, but America is my home and my heritage. We have tremendous opportunities here for everyone. I'm still all thumbs up for our country.

GEEZER

Thursday, December 3, 2009 2:37 PM

Okay, this is a critique of real vs. fictional America from a guy who develops video games, and he expects all to be sweetness and light here? What's he been playing, My Little Pony?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

PEACEKEEPER

Thursday, December 3, 2009 6:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Subjects vs citizens.

Slaves vs free people.

You have no concept of what the difference is between a subject and a citizen.A citizen is a member of a nation. A subject is a member of a nation with a monarchy. We are ALL citizens. In britain we are citizens of the nation but subjects of Her majesty and her Government.It is merely a traditional term that refers to us as the common people.A term which I have no problem with.Are you not subject to the laws and constitution of your Government?We are not slaves in any way shape or form.We have no more or less rights than you do.Your president has as many constitutional powers as our Queen does. In other words, hardly any. Both president and Queen have no more than figurehead status, We both know that the country is run without their permission.Get off your high horse and stop pretending that you live in the most free state on Earth.You are SUBJECT to the same laws and restraints that we are.The monarchy in britain is a traditional set up that has no political consequence in this day and age.But try and abolish it and you will find a majority resistance to that. it was done in the 1600's and lasted 11 years until it was reestablished. The British people are generally proud to have a constitutional monarchy and most Americans love the fact too.The Queen is schooled from a very early age in the British constitution and in the event of a Governmental crisis would be perfectly able to take over day to day running of the legislature if required.And she would remain neutral.And I GUARANTEE if the Queen were to turn up at your house for a quick cuppa, you would bow and scrape and show deference like the rest of us, REGARDLESS of what you thought of her.That is because she is HIGHLY regarded throughout the free world and she commands the respect she deserves on the whole.You don't give her that courtesy and you will find yourself in a small minority my Wulfy friend!!!. We are as free as you, and her Majesty will stand up for that freedom as strongly as any of your unbiased, neutral altruistic politicians!!!!(snark)
P.S please forgive my apparent inability to paragraph. I'm on a rant and my grammar has deserted me.!!!
Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, December 3, 2009 8:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Dang it - you mean you're not all hell-for-leather crazy drivers looking for the last stash of gasoline to fuel the last of the V8 interceptors after the apocalypse?

Everybody knows that Autralian culture is best demonstrated by two movies: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096486/

and

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100608/

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

Ha ha. I've never heard of the 2nd one, looks, um, yeah...

I think real American culture is best depicted in 'Napoleon Dynamite'. Pedro for President!!

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, December 3, 2009 8:57 PM

Every time we get into this discussion of how europe views the US and vice versa, this is the only thing I can think of...

Take it as you like.

-F

BYTEMITE

Thursday, December 3, 2009 8:59 PM

Actually, where I live? Yeah. Napoleon Dynamite is a fairly apt depiction.

When I lived in Idaho it was pretty much perfect. In Utah, you just have to add Mormons.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, December 3, 2009 9:32 PM

Quote:
If we believed everything in the movies...

Large, loft-style apartments in New York City are well within the price range of most people -- whether they are employed or not.

At least one of a pair of identical twins is born evil.

Should you decide to defuse a bomb, don't worry which wire to cut. You will always choose the right one.

Most laptop computers are powerful enough to override the communications system of any invading alien society.

It does not matter if you are heavily outnumbered in a fight involving martial arts: your enemies will wait patiently to attack you one by one by dancing around in a threatening manner until you have knocked out their predecessors.

When you turn out the light to go to bed, everything in your bedroom will still be clearly visible, just slightly bluish.

If you are blonde and pretty, it is possible to become a world expert on nuclear fission at the age of 22.

Honest and hard working policemen are traditionally gunned down three days before their retirement.

Rather than wasting bullets, megalomaniacs prefer to kill their arch enemies using complicated machinery involving fuses, pulley systems, deadly gases, lasers, and man-eating sharks, which
will allow their captives at least 20 minutes to escape.

All beds have special L-shaped cover sheets that reach the armpit level on a woman but only to waist level on the man lying beside her.

All grocery shopping bags contain at least one stick of French bread.

It's easy for anyone to land a plane providing there is someone in the control tower to talk you down.

Once applied, lipstick will never rub off even while scuba diving.

You're very likely to survive any battle in any war unless you make the mistake of showing someone a picture of your sweetheart back home.

Should you wish to pass yourself off as a German or Russian officer, it will not be necessary to speak the language. A German or Russian accent will do.

The Eiffel Tower can be seen from any window in Paris.

A man will show no pain while taking the most ferocious beating, but will wince when a woman tries to clean his wounds.

If a large pane of glass is visible, someone will be thrown through it before long.

If staying in a haunted house, women should investigate any strange noises in their most revealing underwear.

Word processors never display a cursor on screen but will always say: Enter Password Now.

Even when driving down a perfectly straight road, it is necessary to turn the steering wheel vigorously from left to right every few moments.

All bombs are fitted with electronic timing devices with large red readouts so you know exactly when they're going to go off.

A detective can only solve a case once he has been suspended from duty.

If you decide to start dancing in the street, everyone you meet will know all the steps.

Police departments give their officers personality tests to make sure they are deliberately assigned a partner who is their total opposite.

When they are alone, all foreign military officers prefer to speak to each other in English.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, December 3, 2009 9:39 PM

And to sum up some of the attitudes here

RUE

Thursday, December 3, 2009 9:41 PM

"If we believed everything in the movies..."

Just to go along with this slightly off-course direction: have you ever seen Galaxy Quest (a great spoof on Star Trek and one of my favorite comedies). In it there's a low-ranking character with a first name only who is SURE he's going to die right away - like ALL barely-named yeomen do.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, December 3, 2009 9:58 PM

Ouch, Africa isn't even THERE.

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, December 3, 2009 10:03 PM

I was referring to the ideology behind the British people.

Britain has a long history of bowing to their monarchy. Its ingrained. No matter that they might now have a different form of government. (Laughable at best)

Why else would they meekly allow the confiscation of their tools of self defense? Or cameras to be put on every street corner?

Well, because the government (queen) is LOOKING OUT FOR THEM!

Right?

RUE

Thursday, December 3, 2009 10:11 PM

"Britain has a long history of bowing to their monarchy."

Until about 1215 when the Magna Carta was issued. I'd say Britain has a longer history of hobbling their monarchs (roughly 800 years worth) than the US, which didn't get going on that until 1776.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, December 3, 2009 10:29 PM

From wiki

Quote:
The Monarchy of the United Kingdom (commonly referred to as the British monarchy) is the constitutional monarchy of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories. The present monarch, Elizabeth II, has reigned since 6 February 1952. She and her immediate family undertake various official, ceremonial and representational duties. As a constitutional monarch, the Queen is limited to non-partisan functions such as bestowing honours. Though the ultimate executive authority over the government of the United Kingdom is still by and through the monarch's royal prerogative, in practice these powers are only used according to laws enacted in Parliament or within the constraints of convention and precedent.

Basically the Queen is a figurehead with very little power. She has to get permission to enter parliament and is bound by conventions which limit her role.

Whatever issues you may with British society, it's not about the Queen.
PS I'm not British,

PEACEKEEPER

Thursday, December 3, 2009 11:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
From wiki

Quote:
The Monarchy of the United Kingdom (commonly referred to as the British monarchy) is the constitutional monarchy of the United Kingdom and its overseas territories. The present monarch, Elizabeth II, has reigned since 6 February 1952. She and her immediate family undertake various official, ceremonial and representational duties. As a constitutional monarch, the Queen is limited to non-partisan functions such as bestowing honours. Though the ultimate executive authority over the government of the United Kingdom is still by and through the monarch's royal prerogative, in practice these powers are only used according to laws enacted in Parliament or within the constraints of convention and precedent.

Basically the Queen is a figurehead with very little power. She has to get permission to enter parliament and is bound by conventions which limit her role.

Whatever issues you may with British society, it's not about the Queen.
PS I'm not British,

Exactly,which was basically my point.Does Barack Obama run the US?.Or is what he does and says governed by the market,the military and the will of the people? He is purely a figurehead and a puppet.He is merely a means by which the real leaders can express themselves through. The last time a US president took it upon himself to express his OWN vision, he had his brains blown out in an open top car!!!! Sorry,but that's politics for ya.

Peacekeeper---keeping order in every verse!!!

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Thursday, December 3, 2009 11:35 PM

The roles of the President and the Queen are very, very different,in that the President does have powers, legislative, executive and the power of appointment. he's commander in chief of the armed forces and can declare war (I think?). I'm sure that the US posters here will correct and extrapolate.

He also has limits to his powers - and yes, the global financial market and the media and numerous multinationals probably hold more power than he does, however he is the generally regarded as the person who holds the most political power in the world. The Queen, not so much...(although she is very rich).

The President and the British monarchy are alike in some ways, as their positions are both considered to be revered (unlike our prime minister for example). There is something kinglike about the role of the Pres...but then I guess that was what the founding fathers knew of leadership.

PIZMOBEACH

Thursday, December 3, 2009 11:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
And to sum up some of the attitudes here

That is priceless!

Scifi movie music + Firefly dialogue clips, 24 hours a day - http://www.scifiradio.com

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, December 4, 2009 4:20 AM

Monarchy isn't inherently evil, although it is of course bent easier in that direction by the myth of "royal blood" and "born better" by jackasses who don't seem to realize that scraping to survive takes time away from education or self-enrichment.

Of course, we got that here too, various corp-family dynasties, and suchlike...

But the Swiss made it work for them, historically, better than anyone else ever did, and the English did eventually swipe some of those same reforms.

And since I mentioned the Swiss - I'll also note a rather direct correlation between not gettin in everyone elses goddamn business and not getting embroiled in wars or having the shit bombed out of you.

Americans could take a lesson from that, you know.

-F

KWICKO

Friday, December 4, 2009 4:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pizmobeach:
Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
And to sum up some of the attitudes here

That is priceless!

That's what I was thinking.

My only problem with it? No American (other than maybe Al Franken, that is) could draw a map of the world that accurate.

KWICKO

Friday, December 4, 2009 4:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I was referring to the ideology behind the British people.

Which you know absolutely nothing about.

Quote:

Britain has a long history of bowing to their monarchy. Its ingrained. No matter that they might now have a different form of government. (Laughable at best)

See Rue's comment. By the way, what is their current form of government? (That question is for Wulfie only; let's call it a pop quiz)

Quote:

Why else would they meekly allow the confiscation of their tools of self defense? Or cameras to be put on every street corner?

Which monarch to you bow to? Didn't you say you're from the DC area? Why did y'all allow the confiscation of your weapons of self defense prior to the Heller decision? And what's with all the cameras on every street corner in your neck of the woods?

Quote:

Well, because the government (queen) is LOOKING OUT FOR THEM!

Right?

Right. You really should look into the Queen's history a bit. Did you know she drove an ambulance during the second world war, and learned to work on and repair heavy vehicles, so that she could contribute to the war effort?

What was it you did during the war? Any of the wars, I mean? Since, ya know, you're all about patriotism and serving your country and all. And since you're "looking out for" your people, as you claim.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

GEEZER

Friday, December 4, 2009 4:58 AM

Come to think of it, I was in Spain last month and saw a naked, angry-looking man riding a bicycle through the one of the main plazas in Barcelona. He wasn't Jewish. (true story! Rode by me so close I could have touched it...him.) So obviously, all Spaniards are naked, angry, bicyclists, and not Jewish.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Friday, December 4, 2009 5:03 AM

I've always been suspicious of the Swiss neutrality - I mean, how is it you're one of the few countries that don't get invaded. I guess the Germans had something to gain out of leaving them alone, and they are (in parts) German speaking already. They made a lot of money out of the war, quite immorally - the swiss banks are where the germans stashed their booty gained from murdering jews and plundering Europes priceless artworks. Sometimes neutrality is questionable when abhorrent things are happening to all your neighbours, and you just pull down your blind and turn the tv up a notch.

KWICKO

Friday, December 4, 2009 5:29 AM

Swiss neutrality is easy for them, because nobody WANTS to invade Switzerland. Look at it - it's mountains, ringed by mountains, surrounded by... MOUNTAINS. The Swiss have been there for eons, and are adapted to their terrain the way the Afghans are adapted to their terrain. You invade them, you don't need a matching force, or double their number. You need superiority on the order of a hundred to one or better, and nobody in recent times has found the risk worth the reward.

Add to that the fact that pretty much every Swiss citizen is trained in firearms proficiency, or at least was last I heard, and most of them are issued rifles or machineguns to keep in their home, just in case. It's said that the Swiss can summon a million armed citizens in less than 24 hours to repel any invasion, which will necessarily come through the few mountain passes which are easily guarded.

Think of the movie "300", and how a few men in just the right bottleneck were able to hold back a force numbering in the hundreds of thousands. (The actual numbers in the movie are bunkum, but it's true that a force of a few thousand DID hold off a force of AT LEAST 100,000, and possibly as many as 500,000, for some time).

I heard the story once of a German general, on the eve of WWII, visiting Switzerland and speaking with a Swiss officer. "How many armed men can you have at your disposal to repel an invasion?" asked the German. "One million men, in 24 hours" replied the Swiss. "So what would you do if I marched five million men through that mountain pass tomorrow morning?" asked the German. The Swiss thought for just a moment before responding, "I'd have each of my men take five shots, then go home."

And the Nazis never felt the need to invade Switzerland... or so it's said.

Don't get the wrong idea of Swiss neutrality - they're neutral, but they're not pussies, and they're not unarmed. They neutral because they ENFORCE that neutrality. And yes, there are German-speaking Swiss. And French-speaking Swiss. And Italian-speaking Swiss. They're a melting pot, and seem to do pretty well at it.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

KPO

Friday, December 4, 2009 12:37 PM

Quote:
My understanding is the original poster was commenting on the difference between America as depicted in the media, and America in reality. Not whether Europe is better than the US or vice versa.

There are two reasons I would say why a European might be shocked to learn of some of the reality of life in America - one is to do with the type of media that reaches us (perhaps only in our younger years) reflecting the more glamorous side of America. But another reason is that America is a land of *extremes* (tho perhaps Americans don't see anything unusual), and that the extremes of poverty and violence in the US are *much* worse than what you can find anywhere in UK/France/(West)Germany. In this respect I would say the US is more on a par with countries like South Africe/Russia/Brazil, countries with real problems - and yet the US is richer than these, and even UK/France/Germany.

Quote:
Subjects vs citizens.

Slaves vs free people.

I just passed over this the first time, didn't understand what you could be saying... Absolutely unreal. Sometimes what I hear from the American right about Europe reminds me of a story of a Dutch missionary going behind the iron curtain to spread the gospel, and trying to talk to a Soviet soldier but coming up against: "Oh you're from Holland? You must be sick about the American occupation of your country." The missionary has to try and explain that Holland is not an occupied country, but gets nowhere...

Quote:
Most of it, actually. I tend to get robbed in *western* europe. It's a pretty common experience for americans.

Fair enough, I will note yours as an interesting, if quite anomylous (maybe cos your a conspicuously wealthy tourist?) experience. I have lived all my life in the UK, travelled around several citites in France, Germany etc. and never been the victim of crime, or felt in any real danger. As I'm sure is true for the majority of people living in America. But I maintain that some areas of the US are like nothing you will find in these otherwise comparable countries. Yes, all countries have their deprived areas, industries and cities in decline; and all towns and cities have their 'wrong side of the tracks' - but America in my view is quite unique in the way it takes this to an *extreme*. Why is this?

I'm sure there are a few reasons, but I suspect some of it can be put down to the extra 'edge' of individualism in the US mindset (folks like Wulf should note that individualism is not a uniquely American trait but a defining trait of Western culture and civilisation as a whole, going back to the ancient Greeks, see http://www.clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-dimensions/indi
vidualism/). My guess is that the slightly more collectivist European mindset finds levels of societal degradation abhorrent, that americans find natural (the way of the world, personal responsibility *shrug*).

Heads should roll

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, December 4, 2009 3:02 PM

Magonsdaughter ?

Morality be damned, a countries leader has a certain responsibility to their own nation and people, over and above any for their neighbors, and while they had plenty of ground troops, sure - their neutrality was the only thing keeping the luftwaffe from bombing them back to the stone age.

And they used that neutrality also to the benefit of the allies as well, remember.

Speakin of, certain of the allied forces and noteable folk amongst them were also not above making immoral profits, since american corporations thought (and still do, IMHO) facism was the greatest thing since sliced bread given how much they hated those dirty unions, socialists, etc - remember that they supported that murderous bastard franco as well, and we happen to be the only nation on the planet who actually has nuked someone and it wasn't even technically a military target.

And take Finland for an example of our malicious behavior, for they would have rather remained neutral, but our "plans" for them and their country so horrified them that they threw in with the axis powers for mutual defense since the allied forces more or less threw them to the russian wolves - and yet throughout it all they were damned and bloody-handed determined to maintain their national sovereignty at any cost.

War is a damned ugly business all around, which is why smart people avoid them unless no other option presents itself - and all too often the choice whether or not to risk your neck for the intended outcome (all too often a lie in the first place, at least here in america) isn't up to you, but up to a bunch of shitheads who see you as cannon fodder, naught more than trained animals whos lives can be traded for political or financial points and support, something very much true ever since the civil war and our government forcing citizens to fight their countrymen at gunpoint.
(see also: NY Draft Riots)

Hell, some americans volunteered, against the wishes of their own government, to fight AGAINST Franco, choosing of their own free will to risk their necks, and many in WWII actively chose to fight it because they believed in putting a stop to Hitler and Mussolinni's aggressions, even when those aggressions had not yet directly impacted them.

On the other hand, we also did a lot of fighting to suppress other countries for corporate profit, look into the fruit wars for more info about that.

So war isn't really a business of morals, per se, and once the bullets fly a leader and a nation has to look to it's own interests even if some of the conduct required for it is quite reprehensible.

I don't blame those leaders, those nations, so much as I blame the governments who's ambitions or arrogance initiate them - poland, france, they didn't have much choice, nor did they initiate hostilities, you see ?

But then again, imma Anarchist, and the idea of taking up arms and shooting at folk I don't even know who have done me no wrong simply because I am told to by a government thoroughly appalls me in the first place, as does the notion of anyone with a damn lick of sense doing so.

For a fact, more people of the world have died by the stroke of some leaders pen than bullets have ever killed - and folks wonder why I got an issue with the idea of governments...

-F

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Friday, December 4, 2009 10:07 PM

I'm sure all European countries would have preferred to remain neutral - they just didn't get a say in it. Germany invaded them and bombed the shit out of them.

ever played Diplomacy? Even though it's WW1, it gives a great insight into how countries like Switzerland, Sweden and Ireland were able to stay neutral, but poor old Belgium - not a chance.

Sometimes neutrality is immoral, especially if you also reap the rewards of those who suffer around you.

It still feels to me like someone's raping your next door neighbour and you are the one that says...I'm not calling the police, nothing to do with me!!

RUE

Friday, December 4, 2009 10:27 PM

"I have lived all my life in the UK, travelled around several citites in France, Germany etc. and never been the victim of crime, or felt in any real danger. As I'm sure is true for the majority of people living in America."

Not ... necessarily. No one in the US wants to be caught in certain areas of their local city, especially during the night (though, when it's a bad anough area, broad daylight is also a bad time of day). There is this feeling of being the lone target on the street.

That's why I can spot a Canadian or European in a crowd in the US. They are the ones comfortably walking with their heads up looking around and acting as if they belong there. The USers, OTOH, are extremely defensive.

BTW, everything danerous that has ever happened to me up to and including being beaten has happened in a US city, and usually during the day - I don't to go out at night unless I need to. This is in contrast to my exprience in several Canadian cities, where I comfortably and freely walked all hours of the day or night through all sorts of areas, and was never once so much as even mildly hassled.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

KWICKO

Friday, December 4, 2009 11:13 PM

Hehehehh... My old neighborhood, Rue, I actually got pulled over one night on the way home, because the cop wanted know what I was doing in that area. He apparently figured a white guy in that area at night was there for only one thing: drugs. I told him I lived just down the block, showed him the address on my license, and he looked a bit nonplussed. I explained to him that I moved there for the cheap rent, and the dogs and guns helped me feel unthreatened, which he kind of understood. :)

I walked the neighborhood at night, but I always kept my wits about me as far as situational awareness goes, and was never hassled. Had one car stolen, and two broken into, but I'm told that happens in every part of town...

Now, there ARE some alleyways and dead-end streets in that area where I won't go even in broad daylight, with a gun in my hand.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

DREAMTROVE

Saturday, December 5, 2009 12:56 AM

Magons'

I think this had more to do with banking than with diplomacy.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:05 AM

I was talking about the game...

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:16 AM

Rue, Mikey ?

I could hardly be called upon for an opinion of that mess, since I grew up in a neighborhood where you had to be careful even buyin groceries, cause if you didn't leave one hand free for your pistol you were buying trouble right from the start.

When I was workin for Eagle-A1, the owner let me use one of the security cars (bulletproof) we used to escort limos since we didn't get much call to use them and it's bad to leave a car sit unused, maintainence wise - and it had sufficient anti-theft measures that it'd actually BE there in the morning, with all four wheels still on it.

My place was on the top floor of a lot of narrow steps with no landing, and the steps were both sensor rigged and boobytrapped - if I thought something foul was up a pullstring would yank the pin of a CS gas grenade in the light fixture and fill that hallway quick, and STILL I got shot at twice for no particular reason in between the front door and the car.

Funny thing about that, was that one of the local midlevel drug yahoos wanted to rush my place*, and used the damned cops as a freakin recon team by levelling a weapons accusation, causing them to come and search the place - they did it correctly, for the most part, came during the day and knocked politely, sliding a copy of the warrant under the door.

I let em in and sat in my kitchen drinking cocoa while they looked around, and one of em got pissed at not finding anything and kinda trashed the place, which resulted in the landlord sending them a bill, which they surprisingly *did* pay through their community relations division.

His goons, now having the idea that their buddies in blue had rendered me defenseless did try some funny business a couple days later, and I had to bring home another CS grenade...

Livin that way drives people insane, and the fact that the Baltimore PD was so rabidly and aggressively anti self-defense that the druglords used em to strip others of the capacity for it didn't leave me warm fuzzies for the force, especially as it was notoriously corrupt.

I drove through there some few years ago (I do this because otherwise the people with me will not believe it was that bad) and the place looked like Beirut after the war, a bombed out shell almost desolate of life - looks like everyone who coulda left did and those remaining killed each other - damn glad I got the hell out of there, many weren't so lucky, or ruthless enough, especially the old folk livin on pensions and whatnot...

They talk about the american dream, but I tellya, it sure as hell isn't visible from the corner of 10th and Stohl, and that's a fekkin fact.

*Said dopelord was a little pissed about me bouncing one of his little hoodlums off my fender, since my ignoring his attempt to sell me drugs encouraged him to try a carjacking - bastard even shot at me as I drove off, but he didn't hit a bloody thing and it wouldn't have mattered if he did.

FYI, I hated that goddamn stop sign there - if you stop, you risk robbery or carjacking, and if you DON'T stop, the goddamn police cruiser (who conveniently managed NOT to see any of the drug dealing) sittin at the end of the street would be all up in your ass with a ticket, lickety split, fekkin bastards... people wonder why I hate police, *hissss*

-Frem

There always has to be a price.

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, December 5, 2009 1:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I'm sure all European countries would have preferred to remain neutral - they just didn't get a say in it. Germany invaded them and bombed the shit out of them.

ever played Diplomacy? Even though it's WW1, it gives a great insight into how countries like Switzerland, Sweden and Ireland were able to stay neutral, but poor old Belgium - not a chance.

Sometimes neutrality is immoral, especially if you also reap the rewards of those who suffer around you.

It still feels to me like someone's raping your next door neighbour and you are the one that says...I'm not calling the police, nothing to do with me!!

Oh I take your point, I was just bringing to light the question of who has to risk their neck for it - I am ok with folk volunteering to do so, not so ok with someone else forcing them to under threat of violence/incarceration/etc.

Like I said, there were americans who went to fight Franco even in defiance of their own country supporting him cause the guy was a freakin monster.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln_Brigade
The mess in Catalonia is where the final break between the Socialists, Communists and Anarchists occured, since the former two went and threw in with Fascists against us, and we've never ever forgotten it - that they sided with everything they claimed to hate against their "friends" because their "friends" didn't want to grab the leash for themselves, but rather cut it into pieces and set it on fire.

The very IDEA of Anarchist Catalonia was a threat to every single government of any kind on the planet, and they knew it and reacted accordingly.

And yes, all too often nations don't get much of a say in it, or are dependant on some resource that the lack of will be crippling - which is why us attacking Iran would be suicide, cause the Russians are gonna scream "THAT'S OUR OIL SUPPLY" and come running, enraged, to defend it, whether they actually LIKE the Iranians or not.

As for historically, if we *HAD* taken the moral course, and not dropped Afghanistan like a hot brick when the Soviets pulled out cause it was no more use to us, if we had kept our promises...

We wouldn't be in this fuckin mess, would we ?

I doubt they expect us to keep any promises even now, many as we've broken to them - and we keep halfassing the job with puppets like Osama, Saddam, The Shah, etc - which always, ALWAYS bites us on the ass a while later, and Kharazi will be no different, I figure he goes the way of that shitheel Chalabi, who's prolly living high on the hog somewhere on however much he scammed out of us and laughing up his sleeve besides.

Anyhows, I think it should be up to the individual whether or not to risk their neck outside of their own country out of moral obligation.

-F

KWICKO

Saturday, December 5, 2009 3:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
And to sum up some of the attitudes here

That seems to be a dead hotlink now, Magons. I found a fresh one, (1) because I think that map is hilarious and scathing at the same time, and (2) because I think it adds to the context of this thread.

Here 'tis:

Feel free to copy and paste it.

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

NIKI2

Saturday, December 5, 2009 6:06 PM

Oh, gawd, that one's HYSTERICAL...mostly because it's so right on!

KWICKO

Saturday, December 5, 2009 8:24 PM

Yeah, MagonsDaughter found that one and posted it, but her link went dead. I thought it was perfect enough (especially for this thread) that I went searching for another hosted link and popped it back up because it's so awesome.

Thanks and all credit go to Magons for finding it in the first place!

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

ALIASSE

Saturday, December 5, 2009 9:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
I was referring to the ideology behind the British people.

Britain has a long history of bowing to their monarchy. Its ingrained. No matter that they might now have a different form of government. (Laughable at best)

I suggest that you do a quick search on Charles I and see how Parliament (the English one, not the Firefly one) expressed their displeasure with him. 400 years ago.

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, December 6, 2009 9:38 PM

Re: Baltimore.

I see not much has changed - some of the Conventions I used to attend have blacklisted the city and/or some of it's hotels because they are so gawdawful dangerous, and I was just pondering that when I tripped over this story...

http://news.aol.com/article/baltimore-hotel-shooting/803524

What a bloody awful place.

Although convention-wise, there was one bit of hilarity many years ago, before folk would shit a brick and scream for homeland security at the sight of a pair of pointy scissors...

Was a renfaire group that decided to talk a walk down the street from the hotel to the coffee shop, and a local street gang decided to start hassling them, to which they took in good enough humor till the gang pulled out the usual knives, chains, bats, etc...
(shooting wasn't *quite* as common then cause the police would ignore anything less, you see ?)

The renfaire group looked at each other in amazed disbelief, and then said gangbangers found themselves facing enough razor edged steel to clearcut a small forest, those were NOT prop weapons, oh no...

The bangers bolted, with the renfaire group in hot pursuit, a couple blocks down and tried to hide behind one of the police cruisers parked in front of the station there - which the boys in blue watched with amused contempt, without intervening, I mean, this was the BCPD, remember.

As the mighty heros spread out to flank them the bangers resorted to outright begging for assistance, to which the cops arrested em (again, BCPD, tossed the charges later and just kicked em out, sans chains, bats and knifes) and advised the renfaire people to get the hell out of sight before they suffered a similar fate.

Twice as funny was that some local reporter actually SAW that happen, and lingered lovingly over the image of a bunch of gangbangers being chased down the street by a squad of sword waving folk in period costume.
(For the record, it was the ban on live steel that caused this particular group to stop attending the Baltimore convention, can you blame them ?)

Anyhows, that's one reason that for the time being disarmament isn't an answer here in america, because the criminals are already emboldened by it, and utterly dependent on the non-resistance suggested by folks who do not mean well, they EXPECT meek compliance - for without it there would be a different risk assessment.

And so until the underlying causes and creation of such predators is addressed, which it hasn't been yet, not in any significant way, to ask americans to ground arms is to hand them over, defenseless, to the very predators their society creates.

Each country, each culture, is very different, in many ways, and it's never as bloody simple as folks try to make it, has less to do with weapons than it does people, and the nature of the law and society one is discussing.

That said, you couldn't pay me ENOUGH to try mugging a Glaswegian, crazy I might be, but I ain't THAT nuts.

-F

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, December 7, 2009 12:01 AM

That sounds hilarious. Wish I could have seen it (on TV - don't think I'd actually want to be there).

Baltimore is where the Wire is set, right? That's a great series - I'm still working my way through it. What was the thinking behind the planners who decided to build things like the Projects, and dump the poorest, most disenfanchised people there. It happened here as well, social planning at it's worst - seems these places become somewhere where people get stuck, in that gang - crime cycle.

Anyway, interesting stories Frem.

SNARCLIGHT

Monday, December 7, 2009 1:07 AM

So this expert bases his opinion of the United States on movies and video games. She/He wants me to take that opinion seriuosly.
I'm laughing right now.

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, December 7, 2009 2:50 AM

Magonsdaughter,

Yes, The Wire is set in Baltimore, where I used to live, and it references many real life events that actually happened while I was living there, a rare few of which I was tenatively involved with, though not by choice.

Of course, they had to play some of em up for hollywood, that window leap was actually out of a second story window into a full dumpster, and Donnie sprained his knee, was all.

And the keytune, used by more than one of em to tell folk to clear out, wasn't Farmer in the Dell - it was Pop goes the Weasel, as I recall.

Hell, might as well come clean with it - I was the Brooklyn Ghost, bit of an in-joke because the Brooklyn-Curtis Bay area, known to the police as "Barrytown" was a racially mixed area with a lot of old white folk living on pensions or social security, plus folk too poor to live anywhere else, most of whom were desperate as hell, combined with the local poor and the dope lords mid to low level cornermen and street dealers.

And most of the white folk were a little country-fried, which led to problems whenever the cops (rarely) actually tried to investigate anything, cause the black people clammed up, and you couldn't get any five of the white folk to shut the hell UP long enough to figure out what they were sayin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimorese

The reason for the ghost monniker is cause of the lame story handed upstairs by occasional cornermen or dealers of being robbed by someone who clouted them from behind and made off with their roll - the guys upstairs played occams razor on that and called bullshit.

It wasn't bullshit.

I was seventeen, not even yet legally emancipated with a hostile legally appointed guardian who had just robbed me of all I had and set the cops on my tail - I went to the one place even they would not go unless they came in force, and then what ?

I needed a security deposit and a bribe big enough to make the landlord look the other way, and damned if I was gonna take it from people worse off than me, who were as a rule well armed and more than willing to kill you to keep what they had - so I started takin off the dealers and cornermen when I could catch them out alone.

Tried to go legit, workin three jobs at eighty some hours a week, scratchin and scrapin and getting eaten alive by car insurance, inspection, emissions, tags, registration, plus the way all the businesses are predatory in their pricing - you are correct in your assessment that the ghetto is designed to keep those people from escaping, there *IS* no decent route out of there, especially when those nightmare fees make car ownership impossible, and the bus system is so unreliable no employer will hire you.

Especially, and I found this out from "inside" that little scam, that if your phone extension is 354 or 355 your application goes in the trash, period, they don't want "those people" working for them, the employers, you see ?

Having no choice, I went back to the only survival option I had, till opportunity presented itself working the other end, industrial security for the chem plant up in hawkins point, essentially a suicide-mission and a job nobody else wanted, the damn neighborhood is out on a peninsula stickin out, and cause of poverty and political pressure along with the NIMBY(Not In My Back Yard) principle, had four waste incinerators, a medical waste incinerator, several chem plants, a couple of refineries and landfills, and air quality and lung cancer rates six hundred times worse than the national average.

When questioned on that, city council responded by saying more people in that neighborhood smoked - that oughta give you a new outlook on tobacco lawsuits, neh ?

The EPA couldn't care less, nor could the state, with that sumbitch Shaeffer, a racist, sexist, old school bastard of the first caliber, who could give the Transmetropolitan Character "The Beast" a run for his money, practically GLOATING over the suffering of the poor unfortunate colored folk, hee hee, ha ha, ho ho, what a pity, innit ?

Besides which, half my job as

HERO

Monday, December 7, 2009 1:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by snarclight:
So this expert bases his opinion of the United States on movies and video games. She/He wants me to take that opinion seriuosly.
I'm laughing right now.

Modern Warefare 2 and Stargate SG-1? Super Mario Brothers and Chuck? Looks to me like America kicks ass and saves the world and imports the hottest Scandanavian chicks.

I don't watch Desperate Housewives or Reality TV.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.

KPO

Monday, December 7, 2009 11:44 PM

Quote:
So this expert bases his opinion of the United States on movies and video games. She/He wants me to take that opinion seriuosly.
I'm laughing right now.

I think you've missed the point - which expert? I'm talking about ordinary Europeans' shock when confronted with the extremes of US society (that Americans might consider natural). The fact that this guy develops video games is irrelevant, as his experience of America was firsthand.

Frem, thanks for the interesting descriptions of life in Baltimore - I'm up to season 3 of the wire and finding it excellent so far. From what you know would you say Baltimore is fairly typical of US cities, those that have suffered industrial decline? Or is it especially bad?

Heads should roll

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, December 8, 2009 6:21 PM

I'd say it's especially bad, there's just something... wrong, with the people there, behavioral maladjustments that social factors alone do not explain, but the pollution also might account for that, particularly the lead from the shipyards - but even that, I just dunno.

It's like a contagious madness, it is, and hard to explain to someone who's not seen it, not felt it, like an external "pressure" you can almost feel physically, you see ?

Hell, for all I know Cthulu might be living in the sewers or something, it certainly wouldn't surprise me.

Seriously though, it's an evil place, and one best avoided.

-F

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, December 9, 2009 11:02 PM

Any place is evil.

It takes strong folks (a lot of them) to roll in and fix it.

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Wednesday, December 9, 2009 11:18 PM

Evil is a strong word, I wonder if it really does apply - but I've never been there.

I think some places can be really, really dysfunctional - and it can be a generational thing that just goes on and on and gets madder - poor family structures, poverty, lack of opportunities, and add a drug taking culture, violence and corruption at civic levels and you have the cocktail for the places you describe - they exist all over. Some whole countries are like that, so count your blessings that it's only patches.

KWICKO

Wednesday, December 9, 2009 11:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Any place is evil.

It takes strong folks (a lot of them) to roll in and fix it.

Like New Orleans? :) Or Baghdad? Or Kabul? Or Vietnam? Or Little Big Horn?

How about when the police and military roll in and disrupt the G20 summit? Are they "fixing" the "evil"?

Kinda all changes depending on your point of view, eh?

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde