Michael Moores' F 9/11... will you see it?
POSTED BY: Ghoulman
UPDATED: Wednesday, November 3, 2004 20:30
VIEWED: 28912
PAGE 7 of 14
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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
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Fact: In the first little while the "baby" is just a pack of cells.
And...?
The cells are no less alive in my opinion.
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For you religious people out there, judging and punishment is Gods work not yours. This woman that has an abortion will have to live with that fact for the rest of her life (I don't think that'll be very easy for most) and then after that she'll (assuming God exists) will have to deal with it again at that moment.
And murderers and thieves also have to deal with this.
God also says to obey the laws of man, if these laws are moral. I agree completely with "Judge not lest ye be judged," regardless of God's existance, that said, when you infringe on the right of another human being, (read fetus, pack of cells, baby, what ever semantics you care to attach to him/her).
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do so is to tramp on the rights of the individual
And to kill, (based purely on opinion) a child in the womb that can not speak for itself is somehow not infringing on rights?
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Also, if you outlaw abortion then those operations *will* just go into the back alleys. And that's just the place you don't want them.
And if you outlaw murder then, *shock* murder will still occur. Does that mean that we should legalize murder?
If you outlaw theft, theft will still happen.
Should we legalize thievery?
If you outlaw rape, rape will still happen.
Should we legalize rape?
Resorting to catering to the lowest common denominators so everyone fits under the umbrella of law isn't the answer, in my opinion. That said I don't know if a girl getting a abortion is comparable to murder. Just trying to illustrate a point.
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I also think that I shouldn't intrude on the rights of others.
Amen. I completely agree. I just want to know who speaks up for the rights of the unborn child. If there is even the slightest chance of the child being "alive," (not nessecarily conscious) then I think that they need a voice.
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Anyway, I've brought up some more issues, so, if people really want to debate this further I'd suggest creating another thread for it (this is *way* to OT) and post the link to it here so people don't continue it here. That is all.
I think I've said my piece.
I don't care, I'm still free.
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Ok. This is my last post on the matter and then I'll be quiet and get back to the topic too. I'm sorry for taking us way off topic.
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Originally posted by JCobb:
@ Heb
As far as rape is concerned, I think thats a much more gray area. I wouldn't say one way or the other, but I would hope that a woman would have the bravery and courage to give birth, and if nothing else put the baby up for adoption to the thousands of couples that can not have children. Now, such courage and bravery is rare, not because women are cowards, but because, as I understand it from talking and listening to victims of rape, it can be one of the most horrible things I can ever imagine. It would just be so difficult, (and maybe courage and bravery aren't the right words to describe the women that decide not to get an abortion) to go through the entire pregnancy being reminded of the ordeal.
Anyways, good post, bud, I hope my raving "right wing" speak doesn't scare you off.
I don't care, I'm still free.
I can see your point about continuing the pregnancy for couples who can't have children. But as in my opinion the foetus is still not a conscious living thing and hence not a baby - this is almost equivalent to saying that women should all go out and get pregnant and be surrogate mothers for these couples. Whilst being a surrogate mother is an admirable thing to do it is not something that we would expect regular people to go out and do. In my opinion there is a point where the foetus isn't a 'baby'. You made a point about the packet of cells still being alive but it seems to me only equivalently alive as any other single (or packet of cells) celled organisms. For it to be considered human rather than alive it has to have consciousness, significant brain activity etc. in my opinion.
I guess the whole argument really rests on whether the foetus is considered a baby or not. I can see for people who consider it a baby that abortion would be equivalent to murder but I really don't think that it is.
Ok that's it I'm done. I'm not looking to start up the argument again when you were done - like I said I do see your point. Sorry it's just an issue I feel quite strongly on. Back to the topic...
I will be going to see the film but I will try and take in my 'sceptical hat' with me.
heb
ps. edited to say I forgot to say thanks for the reply and that it takes more than someone presenting a rational political argument to scare me off (..Reavers might).
Well, my sister's a ship... we had a
complicated childhood
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Hey Browncoats,
It’s good to read y’all.
“Way it is is the way it is. We got to deal with what's in front of us.”-Capt. Mal
I saw the new film yesterday in NYC & Moore was getting interviewed outside the theater after. He is a really, really, REALLY fat guy. He should diet. He encourages people to research this stuff for themselves. Why would he do that?
If you have already done the research, this new film merely puts all the information in order from Moore's admittedly biased perspective. If you don't know the facts he covers, you will be shocked and appalled. After that you can decide to love Moore as a truth teller or hate him as a muckraker. Either way, you owe it to yourself, you family, your country and “The Earth that was” to find out the facts for yourself. “Getting paranoid and crotchety is a sign of space dementia.”
You can check the facts on all his films from his site or other places on line. He admits his bias, unlike some others who give us "news". These are scary times so one of the patriotic thing we can all do is watch Fox News, CNN, BBC and all the network news as well as read conservative & liberal papers and watch documentaries on both sides of the huge issues of the day. Only in this way can you call yourself informed.
For those who won't see the movie because they've read that it is full of false hoods, you are buying a lot of hype. Who ever is elected, there may have to be a draft soon (men and women drafted this time) and since much of the world doesn't trust America anymore, the least we can do is listen to all sides. "May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."
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I hardly think a convicted criminal being sentenced to death being "mocked" is equatable to human life. As soon as you kill another, or commit some other heinous crime, are convicted by a jury of your peers, probably isn't a person who practiced being humane. This doesn't rub me the wrong way at all. Now, that said, I don't agree with Bush's decision, nessecarily, but I don't trust the source for being an unbiased one.
So, some people are more "human" than others? Some lives are more equal than others? Tell me why.
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Originally posted by SignyM:
So, some people are more "human" than others? Some lives are more equal than others? Tell me why.
Yep, exactly. As soon as you commit a crime that gets you judged by a jury of your peers, (again, thats not to say there aren't innocent people on Death Row that deserve a second chance) to be guilty of a crime, that is nearly equatable, to me anyways, as a loss of humanity.
It is my beliefs that once a person commits as heinous a crime that they forfit much, if not all of their rights as a human being. (Again, you might differ with me, thats fine.) I have no problem with forgiveness, and if the family of the victim wishes to have the sentence of death changed to one of life in prison, or what have you, thats one thing, but under my personal philosophy, and my beliefs, if you commit a crime you are responsible for it. If I murdered somebody I would like to think that I would be willing to accept the penalty, regardless of its severity.
Again, these are just my personal beliefs.
Oh, and Heb, sounds great, and I agree with you on most of it. It does come down to your beliefs, and I just happen to believe a baby is a baby, regardless. I understand not everybody does.
I don't care, I'm still free.
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I think to end this off, I'll bring up the one point that everyone has mentioned in pass but not actually address.
Q: Is that pack of cells a baby?
A: The answer to this is an *opinion*. *Nobody* knows. So, if someone has irrefutable evidence then I'd certainly like to see it.
JCobb:
All the situations that you mentioned above have the very distinct characteristic that people never really disagree that they are crimes. They are a given that you shouldn't do those things.
It *is silly* to compare them to this situation as this one is quite a grey area. And that is the reason why you can't use them.
So, before anyone goes off to say right or wrong, legal or illegal, if this discussion isn't going to continue on its current partisan path, then we must *first* address that question above supported with evidence not a book of fiction (read: bible).
And that's my piece... unless someone starts a thread.
p.s. I just woke up so if I sound incoherent or pissy, sorry.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
I think to end this off, I'll bring up the one point that everyone has mentioned in pass but not actually address.
Q: Is that pack of cells a baby?
A: The answer to this is an *opinion*. *Nobody* knows. So, if someone has irrefutable evidence then I'd certainly like to see it.
or the question might be:
Why *Isn't* a pack of cells a baby.
I would like to see irrefutable evidence to proof it either way as it is. The problem is that it's the same issue on faith and moralistic principles. One is based on faith (that book of fiction) and its own set of principles and rules, whereas the science (requiring the rigor, evidence and proof) requires its own set of faith and principles.
What I want to see is the incontrovertible proof that murder, rape, stealing are all "wrong". If there is no proof, but simply just accepted standards, then why do we all (ok, some majority of us) agree to live by them and to codify them into our existence.
BTW: I am by no means religious (in any faith, except the Religion of Me[tm][sm] ) at all. Some would even call me a person with complete lack of morals and faith - as evident on a bunch of other threads. But I am just wondering about the elevating of the western art of logic and proof - and the comparative need to bash the faith of Religion.
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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
JCobb:
All the situations that you mentioned above have the very distinct characteristic that people never really disagree that they are crimes. They are a given that you shouldn't do those things.
It *is silly* to compare them to this situation as this one is quite a grey area. And that is the reason why you can't use them.
So, before anyone goes off to say right or wrong, legal or illegal, if this discussion isn't going to continue on its current partisan path, then we must *first* address that question above supported with evidence not a book of fiction (read: bible).
And that's my piece... unless someone starts a thread.
p.s. I just woke up so if I sound incoherent or pissy, sorry.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
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Q: Is that pack of cells a baby?
A: The answer to this is an *opinion*. *Nobody* knows. So, if someone has irrefutable evidence then I'd certainly like to see it.
Show me where I have said otherwise.
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All the situations that you mentioned above have the very distinct characteristic that people never really disagree that they are crimes. They are a given that you shouldn't do those things.
And about a hundred years ago I think most anyone would've agreed that abortion, would have been a crime. It was a given then that you shouldn't do it, (though it still happened, in one form or another, for one reason or another).
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So, before anyone goes off to say right or wrong, legal or illegal, if this discussion isn't going to continue on its current partisan path, then we must *first* address that question above supported with evidence not a book of fiction (read: bible).
I never mentioned religion, or the Bible until it was mentioned by somebody else. You, if I am not mistaken. Also, why the jab at religion? I am fairly agnostic, but how exactly do you get off calling it a work of fiction?
Why this paragraph was adressed at me... I will never know.
Anyways, no prob, as you said you just woke up, I've had a few hours headstart on yah bud.
Fair 'nuff regarding ending the convo. (Though I do enjoy a friendly discussion.)
I don't care, I'm still free.
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I've only heard of MM supposed manipulation through film exploits but I'm deathly curious to see how he's going to present the connections between the Bush family and the Saudis. If anything else, it should be entertaining.
I mean after all, he did make Canadian Bacon.. 
________
"Let's moon 'em!"
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I saw it last night at a midnight show here in Portland.
I won't get into the Moore:good/Moore:evil debate, but I will say that it very effectivly stirs up the coals for those of us that were aginst the war and Gee-Dubbia's Asinine international policy for corperate profit from the get go.
Everyone should go see it; those of us on the left get to have our fire stoked up (and perhaps pluck at our guilt a bit), and those on the right might find it an interesting view from the other side - and maybe change your mind on some things.
Additional note to all Teenagers: go see it now! Sneak in, get your weird Uncle Steve to go with you, or just walk up and buy tickets (- they oh so rarely check). Pay special attention to the scenes where they follow a pair of unscrupulous Marine recruiters, vist US soldiers who have had their limbs blown off, and show the greif of a mother of a US Soldier killed in action.
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