Monsters.

POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 26, 2026 20:52
VIEWED: 14016
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WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 7:25 PM

"Sad to say, but part of the "freedom" you want for all of us involves the freedom for monsters to behave as monsters. We can't necessarily PREVENT this from ever happening again, at least not without severely curtailing the rights of everyone in the process. About the best we can hope for, it seems, is to punish the wrongdoers afterwards. Unless you're a big believer in punishing people for the crimes they MIGHT commit in the future. Are you?"

No, I neither want a police-state or to punish people for crimes they might commit.

You know what would be nice?

If you are acting in the protection of a victim, you are automatically free from prosecution by those committing the crime.

I.E. You can't be sued, OR charged with anything by the state, if its proven that you were acting in the defense of someone else.

Call it the Superman law, or the Mr Incredible law.

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SIGNYM

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 8:47 PM

Nice article, Magonsdaughter.

Wanted to add something I hope you'll find interesting: Strangely, it was this board which turned me into an (almost) pacifist. Years of hearing Death to all potential terrorists! and End violence with guns and Protect our freedoms by spying on citizens! made me sensitive to the whole "ends and means" question. Many discussions with people on both ends of the spectrum made me realize how irrational the concept is that you can create a good outcome from nefarious dealings. I've lived long enough to see blowback come right back at us from when we took the expedient way out. You can't make people love you by hating them, you can't impose freedom tyrannically, nor create prosperity from greed.

The other thing I noticed here: Pounding on people NEVER does any good. While tit for tat may work in prisoner's dilemma games, it assumes that the responder is capable of learning unemotionally. But what I've observed is that responding to snark with snark just sets up a dynamic which swirls down the drain pretty quickly. Given my snarky nature, this is a hard thing for me stop doing, but I try.

Reading people's posts about the tyranny of government... and the (many) cases in which people were railroaded into a conviction ... made me realize that the death penalty was too great a power to give to the government, and that no matter WHAT your ideology, if you have to reach for a gun to convince someone to do things your way, you have already lost in the marketplace of ideas.

I guess in the end it comes down to this: There are no monsters, only people. Damaged people, possibly even dangerous people, but still people. Calling people monsters may be a good outlet for anger and rage, but it doesn't solve the problem, its still part of the SAME problem.

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FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:07 PM

Wulf, there are many good-samaritan clauses in state law, problem is that we live in a society so strangled by conflicting laws deliberately worded vaguely enough to mean just about any damn thing, and our court systems are naught more than a feeding frenzy pool of caviar for the lawyers.

As I mentioned, my theological beliefs do not allow me to interfere with the imminent death of another person save in particular circumstance - which means means I won't be givin CPR to someone, right ?
Mind, this is a huge oversimplication, it's way more complex than that but it'd take too damn long to explain.

Well, *because* of the fact that it would take an hour or so to explain, I simply allow folk to believe that I take no lifesaving action due to threat of lawsuit - and the fact that said excuse is both accepted and entirely credible should be enough right there to illustrate part of the reason folk do not intervene.

I know it's your natural inclination to do so, and it's a credit to you despite the flaming you take, but again - you ALSO have a responsibility to not further endanger the victim or bystanders, which gunfire does have a tendency to do, whether intentional or not.

While several well meaning suggestions have been thrown in the most vicious and insulting way possible (something which I personally have found offensive as hell, cause they have exactly the opposite effect in that case), do not discredit that there ARE issues you need to work through because as I pointed out, my "edge" in crisis situations comes from reducing opponents to exactly that rageful-vengeful mindset where they react without thinking, putting them in a re-active, rather than pro-active, posture.

Tis why I suggested a martial arts instructor, or a patient hunter, to teach you that restraint which would allow you to assess the situation and take the most effective action with the least risk, instead of re-actively charging in headfirst, something which took me a damn long time to overcome as well, and not without a price, neither - the physical consequences of such youthful indiscretion are a bitch when you start gettin old, believe it.

I'll even take that a step further, and suggest that if you do take the martial arts route, look for a Judo or Akido teacher, someone who's concept involves turning superior force against itself - you might find it frustrating at first, but as you learn the application the control will come with it, trust me on this...

Of course, if you're enough like I was in that respect, you'll prolly learn the hard way, by winding up on your ass every time your temper gets the better of you - but it's still worth it, well worth it.

Learn to THINK, then act.

-Frem

There always has to be a price.

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FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:24 PM

And yes, Alice Miller's work is critical to any kind of understanding about the hows and whys.

While handling our created monsters is a matter up for much debate - not creating them in the first damned place would be a good start to a resolution, wouldn't it now ?

Although in specific situations I will say that a "good" outcome can technically come from nefarious dealings, but it carries such a terrible price that it should be avoided unless there is utterly, absolutely, no available alternative - that's why I more or less retired and left things to Justin, because the situation of the hellcamps and their equivalents within the juvenile justice system no longer needs a wrecking ball, but a negotiator - cause such situations where it MIGHT do more good than harm are tremendously rare, and once you start drinking from that poisonous well, it contaminates every action that flows from it.

Which eventually, unchecked, becomes the very problem is was meant to solve - look at how our intel goons have become a greater threat to us than the folks they were set against, classic example.

There's also that violence damages the user as well as the recipient - like a hammer pounding nails, no matter how tough the hammer is, it takes a beating too, and will eventually break for it - that's a lesson I learned a hell of a lot later than I woulda liked to.

The best route is not allowing things to come to a crisis point where all the alternatives and the opportunity to use them have been wasted - which is why I go after the enablers of tyranny and try to steer them off their course, if you prevent the machine from being built you never have to smash it, yes ?

-Frem

There always has to be a price.

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DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:29 PM

sig,

if you don't want stuff like this to happen, don't support the institution.


Magonsdaughter,

I've heard this argument all my life, and I don't buy it. Here's why: I've watched it happen, a lot, and it doesn't look anything like this. The serial rapists, serial killers, and criminals I have known that do the most damage are golden boys who could do no wrong, not abused children. The abused children who commit crimes are often people who see power, they're a minority of people, but they're just like other people, they identify the source of power as abuse, and violence. These people bully and even kill, but they don't form packs and attack. Still, regardless of what someone has been through, I have no sympathy for these people at all. A monster is a monster regardless of how they were made. They value only one thing: Themselves.

More complicated characters are more complex. Tormented souls. They can be insane, violent or criminal, but they're not of the same stripe. I knew a kid who was abused, and very violent. He stabbed a girl, abused a young boy, was generally a destructive force, but he was a mess inside, not a gang organizer. He was constantly looking for outside approval, and then lashing back against those who didn't give it. The boy he abused grew up to be a much more serious abuser, but completely unsympathetic. He would rape and steal and rat on everyone. He was a master manipulator who cared about himself, and no one else. If you gave him your approval or a sign that you cared, then you were a sucker that could be easily manipulated, and he's gladly take you for all he could get.

Yeah, I get the point, monsters are made, not born, but still, there's a difference. Some people decide that the world consists of them, and long before anything happens to them, they're going to be liabilities. One part here I think Freud was right on: This is an early stage, and some people never get out of it. If later, that person discovers violence as the answer to problems, they will be a violent destroyer, if they see money as the power, they'll be an economic destroyer. Any way you slice it, this person made a choice not to evolve, and they make that choice every day: Other people don't matter. Well, hell, if other people don't matter to them, I'm sorry, they don't matter to me.

And people know that I have tolerance for a lot of things and have dealt with a lot of people with vary serious mental problems. This is about assholes. Their mental illness is selfishness, and they didn't learn that anywhere: we were all born with it, and the rest of us just got over it.

*some people encourage it, and create new useless people.

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WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:36 PM

I would add to all off this:

In the end, you have to choose. You either help as much as you can, or you watch.

Right vs wrong.

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NIKI2

Wednesday, November 4, 2009 9:36 PM

Sig, thank you for clarifying, I kinda thought that was the case. And I have to say I agree with every single WORD of all three of your posts...except I came to my pacifism in a different way than you. But other than that, your remarks on everything, Wulf, what you see here, people who do bad things...I'm with you 100%.

Please, Wulf, don't get a dog. Given your temperament, I could only cringe at what would happen to the dog. Dogs aren't psychotherapy, and might only give you an outlet for your hate. If you follow any suggestions, choose among the others. Tho personally I don't think you'll ever seek any help, I think you LIKE your mindset too much. Just my opinion.

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