Don'tcha love their 'logic'?
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Friday, October 30, 2009 03:04
VIEWED: 11384
PAGE 7 of 19
Hello,
I am under no illusions about what Capitalism is, nor about what it is not. I also do not label socialist policies as necessarily inherently evil and all bad, as some seem to be willing to say about Free Trade and Free Market principles. I did not go to Capitalism happy camp nor did I attend Socialism villification classes... Well, perhaps I did, given the amount of propaganda fostered on schoolchildren. But no more or less so than you did.
It is interesting to note that even now, in the midst of this economic depression which has generated so much unemployment (20%, you say? Remarkable. One out of every five people? Really?) somehow in this climate, work continues to be offered at wages exceeding the legal minimum. What factors can possibly be impacting that decision? Why on Earth would anyone, anywhere be prepared to pay higher wages when there are unemployed people doubtless willing and able to do the job for less?
In fact, I suspect that the truth of the matter is somewhat different than is represented in such arguments.
Ever since the industrial revolution, a drive to increase efficiency has resulted in machines that can do more and more work. This Steam shovel does the work of 10 men! This other one does the work of 20 men! This berry-picker does the work of 40 farmers! That chicken plucker does the work of 15 feather pullers!
One might naturally assume that there would be fewer jobs in the 21st century than at any point in history. With more efficient machines and processes of all types, with jobs eliminated wholesale by scientific advancement, a thousand people in our world should be able to do the job of a million people from a hundred years ago. Unemployment should be at 95% or higher.
Right?
So what is it that has been forgotten about Capitalism, the Free Market, and similar forces and structures? What has been left out of the dire prognostications, predictions, pronouncements, and proclamations?
Clearly, something important is not being considered.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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"The first assumption you make is that there is an infinite supply of labor.
The second assumption you make is that all labor is of equal quality."
But neither assumption affects the ultimate outcome.
It is to the inevitable interest of capitalism to pay less than the value of labor. Why ? That's where profit is made. It is the very definition of profit. Should the value of labor go up beyond the range that supports a profit, the products will simply not be made. Jobs will vanish. This argument works whether you are talking about an excess of jobs overall; or workers with varying skill levels. At the point where there is no profit to be made, the system shuts itself down and jobs disappear. And suddenly, there are more people than jobs.
"Under these assumptions, it is hardly surprising that your magic woman is reduced to subsistence living at the whims of tyrannical entities who can replace her without thought on a whim ..."
Have you heard of working conditions in South America ? The Philippines ? China ? Southeast Asia ? South Asia ? How about the Mariana Islands ?
As a former world financial power (to a large extent a result of circumstance and not business model) the US was largely spared these effects. That will no longer be true.
"... and who have no incentive to pay her any more than she absolutely needs in order to survive."
And in the real world, sometimes not even that.
50% of the world lives on less than 1.50USD per day.
"In real world practice, labor supply is limited and of varying quality."
Not true, actually. Because of the profit dictate, there will always be more people than jobs. And there will always be more than enough qualified people to go around. Because when the reverse is true, jobs will be made to go away.
"There are incentives for companies to pay people more than the minimum required to sustain an employee's life."
It's often called a union.
"It is the limited supply and varying quality of available labor that explains why not everyone in America earns minimum wage, even though that is theoretically the only legally required wage."
Theoretically, then, you should not be competing against someone in Bangalore. After all, you are fluent in English, close at hand, ready to work, educated and skilled. And with all those advantages, where can you find a job ? Are you working to your level of skill and education ? Are you being paid for it ?
It comes down to the same thing - you will NEVER be paid the full value of your work under a capitalist system. You will ALWAYS be competing against someone who is willing to do it cheaper.
And average wages reflect that - they are on a downward spiral - for the people who are working, that is.
"I also do not label socialist policies as necessarily inherently evil and all bad, as some seem to be willing to say about Free Trade and Free Market principles."
How can I NOT say it's evil ? It's not based on freedom, equality, or a FAIR deal. It's based on greed. It's based on the idea that you can get MORE than your fair share - that's the thing that's called profit. It's based on creating a zero sum society where people are pitted against each other in a struggle for their very lives for the benefit of a few.
I don't know what else you could call it.
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
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Quote:
I have no doubt that the Free Market has a solution for people with expensive and unprofitable medical conditions who are looking for insurance. The solution is this: Charge them tons of money.
In a Free Market, the only thing that can save such people is charity. That has never been in question. A Free Market society had better be a charitable one, or every newspaper will be filled with woeful tales.
That's great, but this isn't a free market. If it were, the insurance industry wouldn't have an anti-trust exemption. So maybe you should add that in a "free market", not-for-profit insurance companies would be allowed to compete with for-profit ones and go after the same customers. But like I said, this isn't a "free market".
Mike
Let the wild rumpus start!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
We don't need money. All we need is love. We will all love when millions of current and new illegal border-crossers with illnesses line up to get the best care our tax dollars can provide. Oh that's wrong the Dems say!...no non-citizens allowed in plan they say! You can see it in the bill they say! I see, most impressive... but is there ANY ID or Verification of US citizenship going to be required to enforce that law to help prevent identity fraud in Govt. healthcare? Nah. The Dems struck down that little section. Just come on in, everybody one and all! It's all about the love, baby! Saving everyone on the planet from death from illness is our loving responsibilty. Just work harder and longer. You won't miss what they take.
Is that what you really want? 'Cause we CAN do that. Nobody - NOBODY - gets healthcare until they provide valid ID. How do you make sure it's valid? Easy: DNA, fingerprint, retinal scan. All of these can be taken from you at birth, or at any time, and put into the government database, where they will reside forever. You don't get paid at your job without them, you don't buy a house, you don't open a bank account, get a credit card, driver's license, or get admitted to a hospital or even LOOKED AT by a doctor without providing ironclad proof of who you are - and the ONLY people who can get that kind of ID are those certified US citizens who've submitted to the identification system.
Is that what you REALLY want? 'Cause it seems that every time anyone takes the slightest, tiniest move towards something even remotely related to anything like that, the right starts SCREAMING about "Socialism" and "Big Brother".
But we can definitely do it. We have the technology. We have the expertise and the know-how. When can we expect you to come in for your identification process?
Mike
Let the wild rumpus start!
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Hello Rue,
I just don't understand your assertions. If the world worked the way you describe it, I could not be here right now. I would be picking fruit somewhere for minimum wage. Or perhaps digging a ditch. Or perhaps I'd even be doing the job I'm doing now- for minimum wage. I've yet to hear why it is, under your theories, I can even exist. Or why half the world population continues to live from day to day. And why anyone, anywhere, would ever earn more than the minimum.
This bit is most staggeringly one-sided in its viewpoint:
"It comes down to the same thing - you will NEVER be paid the full value of your work under a capitalist system. You will ALWAYS be competing against someone who is willing to do it cheaper."
What system am I living in where I have not been supplanted? Or am I the magic person willing to do this job the cheapest?
Also, what about the corrollary?
In a socialist system, the best workers will NEVER earn the full value of their work. They will ALWAYS have a portion of their work's value go towards supporting a less industrious or productive member of the community.
The only difference between Capitalism and Socialism then is that people living in a Socialist society are supposed to be content with not getting the full value of their work for themselves, while people in a Capitalist system are supposed to be upset with not getting the full value of their work for themselves.
Or am I missing something critical in my analysis?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
But if you're telling me there would be no verfication in a tax-funded system... that would be just plain silly. It wouldn't be enough to make me drop the idea of a public plan bc I think much more good than harm would come out of it, but it WOULD make me agitate for reform!
Seems to me I have to prove I am who I am when I register my car. And I have to show my proof of insurance as well. Also, I have to prove who I am to renew my driver's license.
Jongsie, are you saying that the government-run plan would be incapable of figuring out if you're a citizen or not? 'Cause they seem to be pretty good at it in every other government-run office I encounter. Maybe hospitals are just run really, really poorly if they can't figure that out. You'd think with all the profits the healthcare industry is raking in, they'd be able to invest in training people to do their job better, but it would seem not, from what you're implying.
Mike
Let the wild rumpus start!
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Hello,
"not-for-profit insurance companies would be allowed to compete with for-profit ones and go after the same customers"
Are they not, currently? Is it illegal for someone to create an insurance company and be absent a profit motive?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Hello,
I think Jong believes, and I think he's right to believe it- that while the government *could* figure out if someone was a citizen before giving them medical aid, it seems doubtful that they will expend the resources to do so.
For my own part, I would not desire that illegal immigrants are denied lifesaving healthcare. I do not favor letting someone die on the front steps of a hospital just because they are unable to pay. I'd be happy to donate a portion of my income to help get medical care for people who are unable to obtain it for themselves, and who might die without it.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Don't forget the sham paper and join the club fees - which frankly I have always considered a BS degree to be... BS.
I think this argument is actually more productive in threads specifically devoted to it, but everytime we start getting somewhere personal issues or someone with an agenda fouls the works.
You think on this - I ain't REQUIRED to do anything and boy do I cuss about bein reamed for taxes, especially with a 2400% increase (NOT a type) of tax alone on a product I consume - I mean, not like a secret I bitch about this stuff, do it all the time.
But you ever take into consideration where and when I do *NOT* bitch ?
When we get value for it!
In a fairly recent thread I pointed out the actual beneficient uses that property taxes go to, which, barring the abuse and corruption of local officials I got little problem with.
As such, even in a society where I was not *required* to contribute a single penny of my income to these things, I would still prefer to do so under voluntary collective bargaining to get a better price on goods and services via bulk purchase cause it's simply the most efficient way to go about it.
And yes, that includes medical care for everyone, frankly to my personal belief it's fucking barbaric that we don't - but damn the middle man, especially one who drives prices up simply to justify their own existence and fill their own pockets while providing no USEFUL value for the money.
Call it whatever one likes, imma cut right down to the bone, I'm ok with payin for healthcare for everyone, so long as we can cut the damned insurance companies out completely, cause once we eliminate their useless administrative deadweight (but alas, not the forms-in-triplicate Government admin deadweight, at least not yet..) I bet we'd get off one holy hell of a lot cheaper than we do now.
So that's where I stand there.
As for society and capitalism, they deserve what they get, cept for the fact that the process keeps gettin pushed back by these fucking bailouts, forcing me at gunpoint (which is what tax collection essentially is) to support and patronise businesses who's services and goods I boycotted for a fuckin reason, thankee muchly.
You don't go demanding someone put themselves almost $100,000.00 USD in Debt for a damned job that pays less than $30k a year and then expect to actually get people to work for you - unless you are actively DEPENDING on that bailout, and spending more lobbying for it than trying to preserve your company - if you looked hard enough, you'd have seen me pointing out that GM was setting up for that bailout from the very time I joined this board, ok ?
The so-called "free" market is nothing more than an interlocking set of monopoly-dependancies created by the institutions of corporations, state and federal government, regulatory boards, and educational systems - there's not a damn "free" thing about it - especially not when they can BUY regulations to put their competitors out of the market.
Me, I got lucky - was born with a Slippery Jim Digriz demeanor and I saw the trap early enough to not walk into it, and lemme tell ya this much...
Despite her massive education, her masters degree and apallingly large salary, do you know who is having to back up the Fremgirl financially right now, because of the amount of debt and taxes that kind of "Success" requires ?
As a friend of mine said, *I* ain't never likely to go hungry, cause so long as there's three people left on this rock, end of the day, someone is gonna want someone else's butt kicked.
But yeah, I worry for the rest of ya.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Is it illegal for someone to create an insurance company and be absent a profit motive?
Pretty sure it is, actually.
And if not, give it just long enough for the bastards to call in their congressional markers and it WILL be.
-F
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