How about this?

POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Friday, October 9, 2009 18:21
VIEWED: 6628
PAGE 1 of 1

WULFENSTAR

Monday, October 5, 2009 7:39 PM

How We Can Win the Second American Revolution Without Firing a Shot:

Ladies and Gentlemen.

I have news for you. Barack Obama is not the problem with America. He is merely the symptom. When big government failed, the people, not knowing what went wrong, went for the fresh face who promised that government would solve the problems the people didn’t know government caused in the first place.

America went off course many, many decades ago. Blaming Obama for our problems is like saying a 500 pound man is fat because he just ate three pizzas. Obama is the captain of the Titanic and his ship is speeding recklessly along, but he did not design the ship nor place that giant iceberg in its path.

The tragedy is that the American people do not know why the economy collapsed. They do not know the nature of the regime that runs the country. They do not know that this regime is not the regime for which the Founding Fathers and Mothers fought. They do not know what the regime was that the Founders fought for. Finally, they do not know that the solution to our economic collapse is to restore that regime.

What were those Minute Men fighting for at Lexington and Concord? A republic of largely independent states. They weren’t fighting for the Constitution. There was no Constitution. They were fighting for a republic that would protect their natural right to liberty.

What is a republic? There’s much confusion about this. We must get this right. John Adams once complained that he “never understood” what the guarantee of republican government meant “and I believe no man ever did or will.” With apologies to John Adams, by “republican,” I mean a government exercising limited powers delegated to it by the people, whose officials are answerable to the people in regular, free elections.

Distinguishing between a republic and a democracy is critical. Both forms of government feature voting by the people to select officials. The difference between them is that while republican voting is done for the purpose of choosing officials to administer the government in the pursuit of its narrowly defined functions; democratic voting is done, not only to select officials but also to determine the functions and goals and powers of the government. The guiding principle of republics is that they exercise narrow powers delegated to them by the people, who themselves, as individuals, possess such powers. They cannot spring as they do in democracies, ex nihilo, from the mob’s collective whim.

Only a republican government can be truly limited. A republican government may only exercise powers delegated by the people that the people actually possess. The people do not have the right to steal from their neighbors so they cannot delegate to the government the power to create a welfare state. The people don’t have the right to counterfeit so they cannot delegate that power to the Federal Reserve. The people do not have the right to rule the world so they cannot delegate to the government the right to create a global military empire. You see where I am going with this? If we had a republic, we wouldn’t be in the bloody mess we are in.

In a democracy, there are no real limits to government power. If you object, you will always be told, hey, majority rules.
Long before Barack Obama was born, America traded in its decentralized libertarian republic for a centralized, democratic, corporate state with a global military empire. You can’t destroy a great country immediately. By the 1970’s, however, the corporate state, the welfare-warfare state started to cause economic stagnation and an endless series of domestic and foreign crises. Middle class living standards have been frozen in place for decades. Our standard of living was only maintained by smoke and mirrors: young mothers joining the workforce, parents working three jobs, credit card and mortgage debt, huge federal deficits, inflation and foreign borrowing. What is happening now is judgment day, the day of reckoning, the day the national Ponzi scheme collapsed. To con the people into thinking th

WULFENSTAR

Monday, October 5, 2009 10:07 PM

bump

OUT2THEBLACK

Monday, October 5, 2009 10:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

*I didnt write this. I saw it, and was wondering what folks here thought of this.
-Wulf

Very good find , Wulfie !

Now you're really getting somewhere !

Distribute to everyone you know , everyone that will hear...

KWICKO

Monday, October 5, 2009 10:39 PM

Don't forget to credit James Ostrowski, the author. It's considered gauche (and illegal) to distribute something like this without the author's attribution or permission. And the dude's a lawyer, so you KNOW he's coming after you if he finds out you're pimping his words without giving him credit.

OUT2THEBLACK

Monday, October 5, 2009 10:39 PM

" Do not blame Caesar, blame the people of Rome who have so enthusiastically acclaimed and adored him and rejoiced in their loss of freedom and danced in his path and gave him triumphal processions. ... Blame the people who hail him when he speaks in the Forum of the 'new, wonderful good society' which shall now be Rome's, interpreted to mean 'more money, more ease, more security, more living fatly at the expense of the industrious.' " --Roman statesman Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 B.C.)

OUT2THEBLACK

Monday, October 5, 2009 10:46 PM

Sorry , I meant to mention that issue of attribution , but when someone writes something this exciting , its easy to overlook even such an important detail...

Here's the Link to the page , for Folk that want it :

http://politicalclassdismissed.com/?p=5929

While Ostrowski may take temporary offense at the lack of attribution , Wulf , don't worry about him coming after you...
So long as you give all due credit...

Best wishes in your pursuit of your cause .

Meanwhile , Judge Napolitano's book is available in paperback , at the bargain price of 6 Bucks !

http://www.amazon.com/Constitution-Exile-Federal-Government-Rewriting/
dp/B002N2XHWG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254783000&sr=8-1

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, October 6, 2009 12:02 AM

Oops, I thought I got it when I cut-and-pasted it.

KWICKO

Tuesday, October 6, 2009 1:48 AM

Not a problem. I've had some stuff reposted and reprinted, and I'm fine with that, as long as it's attributed properly. I don't write for the money, but it's nice to get credit when someone appreciates your work, your words, and your thoughts.

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, October 6, 2009 7:47 AM

Same thing I been sayin for years.

Cut, cut and KEEP cuttin, till folk start goin "Hey, we actually NEED that one!"...

You could slash for months, YEARS even, before you ever even came close to that point.

-F

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, October 6, 2009 12:35 PM

Problem being of course where.

The GOP likes to say "okay, first we get rid of parks, public transit and aid to poor children" and everyone thinks they're dicks, and the measure fails. Thing is, the GOP doesn't care if everyone thinks their dicks: the measure was designed to fail, so they can say "Sorry, we tried to cut govt. spending but democrats objected."

Dems sometimes play this game as well, trying to eliminate penny ante programs, meanwhile both parties are saying, why don't we just pad a couple hundred billion onto defense. And randomly, during the year, lets unconstitutionally add a spending bill that adds a couple more. Who wants a bailout?

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, October 6, 2009 6:52 PM

This one just for Wulf, cause, well, it's funny.

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 1:14 AM

lol.

I think I just said something about this in an RPG game: My dragon fled after a couple rounds of combat. A lot of my players like "why the hell did he fly away?" and then one of them said "maybe because dinner wasn't worth a broken wing?"

Always bugged me when "monsters" always fought to death.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 2:05 PM

bump

KWICKO

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 4:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
lol.

I think I just said something about this in an RPG game: My dragon fled after a couple rounds of combat. A lot of my players like "why the hell did he fly away?" and then one of them said "maybe because dinner wasn't worth a broken wing?"

Always bugged me when "monsters" always fought to death.

Did he yell "LLLEEEEERRROOOYYYY JENKINS!" as he fled? And did he get everyone else killed?

SIGNYM

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 7:46 PM

Wulf, I think this guy's got it 50% right and 50% wrong. I'm too busy to reply in detial, but thanks for the post.

PIRATENEWS

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 7:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

Here’s another form of direct citizen action you can take. The original Patriots did not trust government, including prosecutors or judges. They knew the only way to restrain the power of government was by external checks and balances. They gave us two: the right to bear arms and juries. Naturally, they have tried to take both of these rights away from us. The right to bear arms is safe for the moment but let’s talk about juries.

The original concept of a jury was that it could override the judge on matters of law. Call that jury nullification. Every prominent founder who was a lawyer stated explicitly that juries have the right to judge the law itself and whether it would be unjust to convict a defendant for violating that law under the circumstances.

Tyrannical judges have ruled otherwise, thus overruling the Constitution by judicial fiat.

The bottom line is this. The founders believed you have a constitutional right to judge the law in a criminal case and any judge who says otherwise hasn’t studied our constitutional history.

The purpose of republican government is to protect the individual’s right to life, liberty and property. The Founders created a jury system to ensure that no one was convicted of a crime unless they violated the life, liberty or property of a fellow citizen. If you get a jury notice, don’t grumble. Show up and assert your rights and keep in mind that no one can tell you how to cast your vote in that jury room.

Now, just for the record, I’m not saying jurors should violate the law and lie to judges about their willingness to follow their instructions on the law. What I’m saying is that judges should follow the law and should not lie to jurors!

So, there are things you can do yourself and right now to move toward restoration of the Republic.

During Prohibition juries would drink the evidence in the jury room, then aquit for lack of evidence.

Juries can ignore any fact and veto any law.
www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=citizens+rule+book&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g1g-m1

Street preacher William Penn won the right for juries to NOT be jailed in prison until they reach the "correct" verdict of guilty. He won that appeal pro se without a lawyer. Then he founded the state of Pennsylvania.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_se
www.google.com/search?hl=en&ei=DOvMSuTDH5D8tgeKjozyAQ&sa=X&oi=spell&re
snum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=William+Penn&spell=1

Quote:
Though freed, Penn demonstrated no remorse for his aggressive stance and vowed to keep fighting against the wrongs of the Church and the King. For its part, the Crown continued to confiscate Quaker property and put thousands of Quakers in jail. From then on, Penn's religious views effectively exiled him from English society; he was sent down (expelled) from Christ Church, Oxford for being a Quaker, and was arrested several times. Among the most famous of these was the trial following his 1670 arrest with William Meade. Penn was accused of preaching before a gathering in the street, which Penn had deliberately provoked in order to test the validity of the new law against assembly. Penn pleaded for his right to see a copy of the charges laid against him and the laws he had supposedly broken, but the judge (the Lord Mayor of London) refused – even though this right was guaranteed by the law. Furthermore, the judge directed the jury to come to a verdict without hearing the defense.[52]

Despite heavy pressure from the Lord Mayor to convict Penn, the jury returned a verdict of "not guilty". When invited by the judge to reconsider their verdict and to select a new foreman, they refused and were sent to a cell over several nights to mull over their decision. The Lord Mayor then told the jury, "You shall go together and bring in another verdict, or you shall starve", and not only had Penn sent to jail in loathsome Newgate Prison (on a charge of contempt of court), but the full jury followed him, and they were additionally fined the equivalent of a year’s wages each.[53][54] The members of the jury,

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 8:18 PM

I would argue that we need to add the Gadsden flag as a battle flag for the 2nd Revolution.

True, its not as benign as the Betty Ross flag, but it should be added because it shows that, while the people will work to preserve a peaceful re- accordance to the Constitution... we will not be bullied, pushed, or intimidated without repercussion.

Also, if you can see the government as a beast, full of leeches... the BEST way to beat it, is to starve it. And what does the beast eat? Money.

Starve it, and bring it down.

*by the way Pirate, the intro to the Boondocks is one of the songs I listen to as I write here. Good job.

ETA: Even tho its short.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 8:26 PM

Frem.

Cute.

Now, get your crippled ass to start writing some good shit, ok?

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 8:30 PM

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 8:32 PM

I also listen to this too... :)

PIRATENEWS

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 8:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

*by the way Pirate, the intro to the Boondocks is one of the songs I listen to as I write here. Good job.

ETA: Even tho its short.

I'm impressed that a Pimp Named Slickback played such a pivotal role in the founding of this nation.

If it hadn't been for Boondocks an Wiki, I'd never a lern that.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 8:34 PM

and this....

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 8:36 PM

Pirate.

There is always a place for the fringe.

ETA: At least in a free thinking society.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 8:40 PM

Ok I admit, Im a bit bored today... so here's another good song. lol Besides... you guys need to read this thread.

Its good.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 8:47 PM

Just HAD to add this one. Anyone paying attention?

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 9:01 PM

Do I need to keep posting videos? Or are you going to actually read the above? Can we start to change things for the better? I can do this all day and all night....

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 9:37 PM

All day guys.....

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 9:42 PM

Man, I got a ton of stuff on my to-do list Wulf, but since you're interested...

One project the Geek Farm is lookin over it a proposal for a hot air lift zeppelin made with a "skin" that's actually solar panel on the outside, insulating film in the middle, and airtight mylar? on the interior, over a semi-rigid frame and with the heaters, pumps and drive engines electrically powered by the panels - looks damned useful and we're about to start on a scale model for feasibility testing.

I'm also scrambling to add more personnel since the local PD is going to more or less cease coverage of this area - not only did they lose the court cases over the corruption, brutality and murder, the tax increase they tried to extort with some pretty blatant threats got shitcanned, and we responded with a tax CUT directed specifically at them - we paid em, they wasted the money on lawsuit payouts directly related to their own conduct, and then continued that conduct in threatenin US ? oh hell no.

Couple of em got fired over it too, so the petty lords are pissed as hell and vacillating between sitting in the office pouting, and truly rabid "traffic enforcement" that borders on downright extortion - which is just gonna accellerate the slide - as of maybe december, WE will be the ONLY protection this area has, not just site three, but the surrounding area as well, and trying to coordinate that with other local security from two more communities and the MI state police, while making sure we get reimbursed for it.

Local residents have been pretty solid though, a couple of em have even started making vehicle rounds when the come back from work to back us up cause we're so damned shorthanded, and hey, it's their community too.

And being so, that means despite being badly injured still, I have to fill in walking rounds (although walking is a generous assesment, more like slowly gimping along) while loaded out on a completement of meds which in combination cause severe vertigo and make getting to the end of a sentence mentally difficult - only saving grace is that I can DO this job in that condition on pure reflex, right down to the maintainence notations for stuff from last nights windstorm, which didn't help my mood a whole lot when I got beaned with a damn apple off one of the trees near the park - isaac newton I am NOT, that freakin hurt too.

As for busting chops on cops, Mr Grigg keeps stealin my thunder on that one, and he's welcome to it cause wasn't long ago he was in horrible shape hisself.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/037473.html
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/038630.html

Those two incidents oughta give a pretty good impression of how I feel about it, and for once I ain't alone - a LOT of people are now asking "Why do we pay people who don't protect us, and abuse us, again ?" - damn right they should.

Which brings another ugly issue up, regarding how the alphabet boys laugh off warrants, subpeanos and judgements, daring anyone to DO something about it while laughing up their sleeve...

If you cannot call your attack dog to heel, and trying to may result in YOU being mauled - who's REALLY in charge ?

That's the NEXT question people need to be asking, cause were that me and the USDOJ thumbed it's nose at a subpeano, I would deputize a bunch of returning Iraq vets into the capitol police under a security oath, go down there and serve the bloody thing, dynamic entry included, and arrest anyone who interfered for obstruction of justice - then secure the related materials, evacuate and raze the building, then bulldoze it flat and shred their charter.

THAT would send a message, wouldn't it ?

Also been all up in the case of Dingell and Hoekestra, cause Conyers ain't worth wasting breath on, the cowardly little pissant, and Hoek is a fucking bonehead who seems to think it's 1959 instead of 2009 and all those alphabet goons are telling the truth, pfftth, as if !

And I have to take meds and lay back down, right, cause I got stuff to do.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough

KWICKO

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:30 PM

Ooooh - I wanna play!

Here's a video I think is as relevant as anything Wulfie has posted:

KWICKO

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:32 PM

Here's another: Why are we here?

KWICKO

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:33 PM

Who the hell is Betty Ross?

KWICKO

Wednesday, October 7, 2009 11:44 PM

Bump for Troll Country!

RUE

Thursday, October 8, 2009 12:14 AM

"The tragedy is that the American people do not know why the economy collapsed."

I do.

"(by republic) I mean a government exercising limited powers delegated to it by the people ..."

According to him. But according to definition "The most common definition of a republic is a state without a monarch." Isn't he being just like the Red Queen: "A Word Means What I Say it Means; no More, no Less" ? I prefer the more common definition of words. And, why should I care what he says about any of it, if it's based on a bogus definition ?

"In a democracy, there are no real limits to government power."

Ahem. He means FEDERAL power. And there are limits to FEDERAL power - called the Bill of Rights. It's the STATES that have unlimited power.

"What is happening now is judgment day, the day of reckoning, the day the national Ponzi scheme collapsed."

As happens cyclically with capitalism, regardless of government.

"... let’s recognize what the Founders understood in 1776, that any republic has the right to withdraw from a union when it so chooses."

Probably true. But then, India and West and East Pakistan did just that, and look how well that worked out. I suspect that if you can't find a way to live together, you will be fighting endless border wars with each other.

"The sad truth is, though we want to restore the spirit of the American Revolution, we are outnumbered by Red Coats! ... a smaller, more dedicated army, with a just cause, can prevail against a larger, mercenary force."

AHA ! They (us damn 90 percenters) are not TRUE Americans ! They (us !) are Redcoats and mecenaries !

"Let’s take a quick look at the American Revolution."

Supported by about 45% percent of the population opposed by about 40%, with the rest undecided. Nope, this does not support the idea of a 'small' segment of the population going it alone.

"... if the American people understood one simple principle ... we could shrink the size of government by 90% in three months. All resources are scarce."

Except human resources, which are multiplicative.

"Republican government exists to protect private property."

Is that there in the Constitution ? The Bill of Rights ? Can anyone find me a quote on that ?

"Direct citizen action is hardly a new concept ... it’s what Gandhi used to topple the British Empire."

He would do SO much better if he didn't overstate the facts. He didn't topple the empire, rather, mass action helped get them out of the subcontinent. And again, it involved MASS LARGE SCALE action by many, many people. Small groups of teabaggers don't qualify.

"Boycott the bankers of the political class."

Great idea !
Who are they ? Can I buy a car made by them ? Can I get a home loan from them ? Is Wal-mart one of them ?

"What I’m saying is that judges should follow the law and should not lie to jurors!"

And I do that - how ?

"If any politician tells you they will improve your life, they’re lying. Don’t believe them."

It seems to work pretty well in Europe whose people have a higher standard of living than here.

***************************************************************

Maybe some people will buy this - I'm guessing people already pre-disposed to not like Obama will find a way to justify their dislike. I prefer to deal with what he does, or doesn't do, in actual fact.

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, October 8, 2009 2:49 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/10/07/avlon.civility/index.html

Im not sure what to say about this article.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, October 8, 2009 10:11 AM

"Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice, moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."
-Barry Goldwater

RUE

Thursday, October 8, 2009 5:43 PM

Only if you DEFINE Obama as a dictator.

Because sometimes, extremism is merely a bunch of goons.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

NIKI2

Thursday, October 8, 2009 5:53 PM

Too pooped to go into it at length, so glad you did it for me, Rue. "What she said"

"Revolt!" "Revolt!" "Revolt"...sometimes it's just revolting.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, October 8, 2009 6:53 PM

Quote:
Kwicko wrote:
Wednesday, October 07, 2009 13:33
Who the hell is Betty Ross?

The Hulk's girlfriend. I thought you were up on these things.

As for our flag, funny that. It was originally the flag of the British East India Trading Company, but we added stars in a blue field. The circle of stars, like the laurel wreaths show up everywhere globalists are:

The official story was that this was supposed to symbolize the round table, but the preponderance of other globalist circle symbols like wreaths, the wheat arches, etc., in early americana casts some doubt on that. Again, a long term globalist motif:

Originally, the plan was to use six sided stars, but the official story is that "Betsy thought five sided ones were easier to cut." Um to anyone who has ever tried to cut five sided and six sided stars... But we all know the real story anyway.

The US flag is damned irregular, and doesn't say anything about freedom or masonic conspiracies, but more so of a designation of a possession. It's one of the nagging doubts I have on Pirate News' "We didn't really win the revolutionary was" thing. Which is to say, um, there's a place where he might have a point. Consider our military history. Why did we get into two major European wars, then go and take over the French Indochina War, and who was leading whom on this whole Iraq thing anyway. Sorry, just mind wandering.

NIKI2

Thursday, October 8, 2009 7:01 PM

Looking at that picture, all I can do is think how miserable that woman would have been, lugging those gigantic, bulbous things around. I'm glad she's not real.

Yeah, go ahead, males; I know it's your genetic caveman mentality that loves 'em...you should be made to haul around a pair that size, THEN we'd see how you liked it! (Not that I ever have had to, thank gawd!)

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

STORYMARK

Thursday, October 8, 2009 7:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
Kwicko wrote:
Wednesday, October 07, 2009 13:33
Who the hell is Betty Ross?

The Hulk's girlfriend. I thought you were up on these things.

Alas, she's dead now.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, October 8, 2009 7:30 PM

Wow.

So, other than a few here, who actually read the post...

the rest just like to be assclowns.

Good to know.

NIKI2

Thursday, October 8, 2009 7:35 PM

Oh, I read the posts...all of them. It's just such bullshit it's not worth commenting on. Rue took the time and energy to do so and said everything I would have said--since she spent the time and energy doing so, why waste mine?

I resent the assumption and being called an assclown by someone so bent on wanting to destroy our government, rather than just improve it. I could call you names, too, but it has nothing to do with anything of substance.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

KWICKO

Thursday, October 8, 2009 7:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Wow.

So, other than a few here, who actually read the post...

the rest just like to be assclowns.

Good to know.

Yeah, who was that total assclown who just started dumping in a bunch of clips of music videos?

Oh. That would be you. King of the dipshits, as it were. :)

OUT2THEBLACK

Thursday, October 8, 2009 8:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Quote:
Kwicko wrote:
Wednesday, October 07, 2009 13:33
Who the hell is Betty Ross?

As for our flag, funny that. It was originally the flag of the British East India Trading Company, but we added stars in a blue field. The circle of stars, like the laurel wreaths show up everywhere globalists are:

The official story was that this was supposed to symbolize the round table, but the preponderance of other globalist circle symbols like wreaths, the wheat arches, etc., in early americana casts some doubt on that. Again, a long term globalist motif:

...The US flag is damned irregular, and doesn't say anything about freedom or masonic conspiracies, but more so of a designation of a possession. It's one of the nagging doubts I have on Pirate News' "We didn't really win the revolutionary was" thing. Which is to say, um, there's a place where he might have a point. Consider our military history. Why did we get into two major European wars, then go and take over the French Indochina War, and who was leading whom on this whole Iraq thing anyway.

'...Mr. McLaughlin, who was the chief of the graphics presentation branch of the Office of Strategic Services, forerunner of the C.I.A., led a design team under the supervision of Oliver Lincoln Lundquist, who died in 2008. After considering and rejecting several prototypes, Mr. McLaughlin came up with a round emblem showing the continents against circular lines of latitude and vertical lines of longitude, framed by two overlapping olive branches.

...After taking part with Loewy and Teague in planning sessions for a proposed war room under the White House, Mr. McLaughlin went to Washington to help the O.S.S. develop visual material for the military. As head of the graphics branch, he produced insignia and informational films with animated special effects and diagrams, like instructions for derailing German trains that were printed on cigarette packs. Mr. McLaughlin later applied these presentation techniques to the displays used by war crimes prosecutors at the Nuremburg trials, which took place in a courtroom he designed.

...The United Nations emblem had a difficult birth. Mr. McLaughlin, in his pamphlet, recalled that the initial task was to fit a pictorial image, along with the words “The United Nations Conference on International Organization, San Francisco, 1945,” on a round button measuring just 1 1/16 inches across.

Rejected prototypes included a globe surrounded by chains intended to represent nations linked in peace. “Linked in peace, but also a world in chains,” Mr. McLaughlin noted.'

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/02/arts/design/02mclaughlin.html

So , there's the real meaning of ' E Pluribus Unum ' , a world in chains...

The UN organization , an OSS-developed scheme , and plainly the work of anti-American globalists , in much the same way that FEMA was cut whole-cloth from a CIA black-budget program in the late 60's , and the same story with the 'Patriot Act' and the creation of DHS post-9/11...

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, October 8, 2009 8:01 PM

Rather be king over the dipshits, than the rabble of dipshits...assclown.

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, October 8, 2009 8:10 PM

"Looking at that picture, all I can do is think how miserable that woman would have been, lugging those gigantic, bulbous things around. I'm glad she's not real.

Yeah, go ahead, males; I know it's your genetic caveman mentality that loves 'em...you should be made to haul around a pair that size, THEN we'd see how you liked it! (Not that I ever have had to, thank gawd!)"

Cute.

Poor thing. She has boobs. And we, meaning males, should feel sorry for her?

Well what about my 14 inch dick? Noone feels sorry for me!

I mean, do you know how H A R D it is to fit my monster into a pair of jeans?

And good "lawd" heaven help me if I ever walk by a Victoria Secret store... I have to sit down and take a break. Otherwise... Id scare the kids.

*p.s. I make a good, important post... and you devolve it into a titty thread? WTF? Dont be mad if I respond in kind.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, October 8, 2009 8:11 PM

Ham handed and inexperienced as the guy is, would be nice if folk handed off maybe a little credit for wanting and wishing to make things better even if he don't know how...

If everyone who tries to stand up and have their say catches such a flaming, is it any wonder so few do it ?

Y'all have asked HIM for ideas, but he's just gettin to his feet - and I note that damn few have offered any themselves, neither!

So what's YOUR answer, don't protest, don't have your say, go home, sit down, shut up ?
No wonder things are screwed.

You could instead take the tack of educating a potential ally instead of unwittingly making an enemy - the way most of you are handling this is an ironic echo of our own destructive foreign policy, and you don't even see it.

Sure, you can't force change on folks who don't want it, first you have to CONVINCE them of it's benefit - and it's not gonna happen overnight neither, not unless you hand over a damn dangerous and frankly stupid amount of authority to folks who shouldn't have it, like these Czars, and that's one reason I couldn't support Perot, cause he'd have needed it to accomplish what he was promising, and no politico should be trusted with that much, ever.

But do you not see the hypocrisy of pointing out to the guy that you cannot MAKE changes like that so quick without great risk, damaging the social fabric which more than anything else is what holds us together as a nation - and then turning right around and expecting the guy to overcome a lifetimes upbringing in less than a month ?

Speakin of, Wulf ?
You ain't helpin matters so much neither - people want DETAILS, specifics, of what you wanna change and how, something, anything, they can find a point of agreement in, and you've not managed well on that front cause you're either afraid of being attacked for it, called a racist again, or coming off so inarticulate that folks don't comprehend it...
But you need to do it, YOU - not someone else, not quotes or vids, YOU, in your OWN words, where you stand, enough that folks can find something in there they agree with and back you up.

This sabre rattling at each other here is an ironic mockery of the same bloody thing throughout our political process, and one reason it's so fucked up.

Instead of lobbing grenades at each other, mayhaps a better start would be FINDING SOME COMMON GROUND, yes ?

And I hate to tell ya, badly as he's done so, Wulf has been a bit more forthcoming on that respect than most of the folks flaming him.

So how about it, Wulf - pick ONE issue, one small, minor, annoying issue, and expound at length about it, if you would...

Cause remember, all the big things, really are made up of the small things, aren't they ?

Find ONE handle for you and others to grab onto, and shake the other hand instead of lobbing bombs with it, right ?

But what do I know, I'm just a fool and a heretic, right ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, October 8, 2009 8:17 PM

:So how about it, Wulf - pick ONE issue, one small, minor, annoying issue, and expound at length about it, if you would..."

Frem. There is so much that needs to be fixed.

So many fucking problems that just keep getting worse.

I pick one and can argue it till Im blue in the face, and what does it do?

But ok, just cause its a good exercise...

Property tax.

I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't have to pay taxes on something that you already own, plus paid taxes for to buy in the first place.

Let the flame war begin.

OUT2THEBLACK

Thursday, October 8, 2009 8:18 PM

The 'Stars and Stripes' with which most Americans are familiar , is a Military flag , which symbolizes troops on the move , and the imposition of Military Jurisdiction...

The US Civil Flag is a different matter :

'...The Civil Flag is fast becoming the Symbol of the second American Revolution. The emblem of choice of Constitutionalists, Libertarians, Hippies and Pacifists and of course the much maligned Militia.'

'...From the loftiest point of its roof, during precisely three and a half hours of each forenoon, floats or droops, in breeze or calm, the banner of the republic; but with the thirteen stripes turned vertically, instead of horizontally, and thus indicating that a civil, and not a military, post of Uncle Sam's government is here established.' -Nathaniel Hawthorne

http://www.uscivilflags.org/home.html

http://www.uscivilflags.org/articles-history.html

The proper way to display the Military flag today , in a signal of distress...

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, October 8, 2009 8:27 PM

OUT2THEBLACK

Thursday, October 8, 2009 8:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
" So how about it, Wulf - pick ONE issue, one small, minor, annoying issue, and expound at length about it, if you would..."

Frem. There is so much that needs to be fixed.

...But ok, just cause its a good exercise...

Property tax.

I'm of the opinion that you shouldn't have to pay taxes on something that you already own, plus paid taxes for to buy in the first place.

Let the flame war begin.

JERICHO Flag...Notably similar to the US Civil Flag...

http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/mystery_of_the_flag.htm

Good choice of issue , Wulf...

And , if you like that one , ScamBO also wants to impose a NATIONAL Sales Tax...

Greed and destruction just know no bounds or decency , yanno ?

NIKI2

Thursday, October 8, 2009 8:36 PM

Frem, sometimes I've agreed with you about Wulf being picked on, but in this case: not so much. For one thing, he posts threads over and over and over which say the same basic thing: "Revolt! Take up arms!" I don't know how you expect people to react to his threads, but when we do try to debate, he mostly spews venom or runs away, and usually the former.

I assume this was directed in part at me. I said I thought the original post was "revolting" and agreed with Rue, who made nothing but rational arguments against it. When a picture was put up, I commented on it. Got called an assclown for diverting from the topic, even tho' Wulf had done so repeatedly with things of absolutely NO reference to the topic at hand.

Wulf then proceeded to post a long, pathetically manly-man tirade about how big his dick is, which also has absolutely nothing to do with what *I* posted, as carrying around a rack like I'd talked about is a completely pathetic comparison, and added "I make a good, important post... and you devolve it into a titty thread? WTF? Dont be mad if I respond in kind."

This totally ignores that HE had devolved his "good, important post" (which in my opinion it certainly was NOT) into songs, etc., and calls my one remark a "titty thread".

Are you even capable of seeing all that? I never once called him a name or made any disparaging remarks about HIM, only about the topic, and I got personal snarks back. THAT is Wulf...that is what we usually get from him. Disagreement brings personal attacks, nasty generalizations, obscenities and viciousness. Not always, but far more than 50% of the time.

To talk about sabre rattling and lobbing grenades HERE is amusing, since it happens in so many threads, and is more often than not Wulf lobbing them at others, maybe more than one "other", but he's right in there, snarking "manfully". Educating, finding common ground, is a WASTE, Frem...no matter what we discuss, how reasonably we try to debate, he comes back with THE SAME BULLSHIT the next time he posts a thread.

How about some reality here? Education, debate, reasonableness only work IF THE OTHER PERSON IS LISTENING. You keep saying we shouldn't pick on Wulf but should be fair to him...how about being fair to the people who try to talk to him, get disgusted sometimes, and those who've been here long enough to recognize the futility and not even try?? I'll talk reasonably to him when he talks reasonably--but most of the time, he doesn't. He rants about the same things in virtually every thread...eventually it gets tiresome and anyone with sense stops trying.

I think you believe it's possible to get through to Wulf...and yes, sometimes he's even capable of debating. I think what you're missing is that, even when there's been a reasonble debate, the very next time he posts a thread, he comes back with exactly the same stuff all over again. That you can't see it is a shame, because you keep coming down on those of us who can. I keep trying, but when he starts a thread with bullshit, I'll say so. I'm not about to waste my time trying to "educate" someone who never gets it and only wants to hurl invectives.

ETA: By the time I posted this, numerous other things have come up. I'll answer the relative one: Property tax. I already get that you resent ANY tax, Wulf, but you're quite happy to make use of all the things those taxes pay for. That's really all I have to say, because to enumerate all the things property taxes pay for would be a waste of my time: you have a blindness--"All taxes are wrong!", so why bother? If you can't imagine all the things taxes pay for, either others can enumerate them for you or it's just a waste of time to try anyway.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, October 8, 2009 8:39 PM

Niki... this isn't about YOU.

Jesus.

ETA: Im really starting to think I need another persona here. At least then, you will listen to what I say without all the "baggage".

NIKI2

Thursday, October 8, 2009 8:44 PM

Yep, sure is; Frem addressed it to nobody in particular, but since I'd been involved in the most recent discussion, it was no doubt aimed at me as well as other.

She didn't bother to hassle you about your idiotic "I'm so big" post; as usual, she cuts you more slack than the rest of us, so I pointed out some realities.

Thing is, Wulf; it's not all about YOU, tho' you make it that way; you take ownership for the thread but not for your own devolution of it, you say you made an "important point" and we're assclowns for diverging although you did so earlier and far more than anyone else, you take everything anyone says personally, and you hurl slings and arrows at everyone and anyone quite happily. It's not all about YOU, buster.

Jesus.

As to your ETA: YOU are the one who, over time, has caused all the "baggage". We're all responsible for our own baggage, Wulf; clean yours up, you'll be treated differently. Keep doing what you do, and you carry the baggage ("responsibility") for how you are treated. You just gave a prime example, especially in how you responded to my post. NOBODY asked YOU to feel sorry for the woman with the over-abundant rack, but by gawd, you came right back in as if I had and followed up with your own absurd, ridiculous "manhood" tripe.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, October 8, 2009 8:48 PM

Yay.

More garbage about me... but not about the point of the thread.

Woo-fucking-hoo.

NIKI2

Thursday, October 8, 2009 9:05 PM

Quote:
More garbage about me... but not about the point of the thread

Hysterical. YOU started the thread--YOU bumped it twice when it didn't get the attention you wanted, YOU kept putting up videos, saying you could do it all day and all night, then YOU complain at what people post to your "important thread"?

That's okay, eventually you'll let it go. The topic of the thread HAS been replied to--and as far as I'm concerned, Rue said all that needed saying a long time back. Others posted their responses. The original quote is absurd in so many ways it's pathetic; you've not offered anything except "starve the government" and "fuck the Republicans/Democrats"--you HAVE no suggestions, you just want attention. It IS all about you, mister, or at least you seem to think so. You can't force people to get interested in something just 'cuz you want them to be, PN's found that out often enough.

(Personally I think you keep posting just so's you can change the title back to what you want)

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, October 8, 2009 9:10 PM

Hmm, property tax - good issue, got a lot of meat on it, so lets go there.

Thing about property taxes is, they don't go to the Feds, or the State, so much as directly to the community or municipality, township or whatnot that you live in, and theoretically, you GET something for them.

Stay with me here, I know the Anarchist within is cussin and spitting, but just hang with me and see how this works, or is supposed to work.

EVERYONE pays property taxes, save the homeless - yes, even renters cause it's collected as part of the rent, ok ?
More complex than that, sure, but let's keep it simple for the sake of discussion.

And you *DO* get stuff for them, traffic lights, road upkeep, snow removal services, stuff you'd rather not individually pay for and maintain personally, and so as a collective agreement, throw in with the rest of your community to finance.

This is NOT a bad idea, many communes operate under the same principle, usually through a treasurer, decision board, and committee of the whole.

Let's see what else you get...

Trash removal - always a plus, and remember during the city council fiasco I negotiated us a better deal on it, so obviously I'm for it - and collectively it's cheaper than hauling that stuff to the dump yourself, considerably.

Police - of debateble value but do you really wanna get YOUR hands dirty dragging a perp down to central booking ?
And as the current township has done, they screw up, you can cut their budget.

Firefighters - quite valuable, far better equipped and trained for the job, it's a public service well worth the expense overall.

EMT/ambulance - again, well worth the money to provide full time skilled and equipped professionals.

911/Dispatch - this is also in part paid for out of an attachment to your telephone bill, and while the response might not be as fast as one likes, being able to quickly call in the cavalry when you're handling the situation with a pistol, fire extinguisher or medkit is well worth the cost.

Local hospital/Clinic/Medical services - Well yes, having somewhere for the amulance to GO, especially quick, local and likely staffed by folks from your community is an expense worth payin too.

Sewage/Drainage systems - Umm, yeah, you wouldn't wanna handle THAT yourself, would you ?

Local park - relatively cheap, adds a bit of pretty and allows the kids somewhere to play if the neighborhood is safe enough.

Local library - again, relatively cheap, and useful besides.

Local school - not cheap, but even with all the problems it has, still a worthwhile investment, and one could make the case for allowing a waiver for the childless since they are not actually using this service.

Overall, much of what your property taxes get you, *IS* worth payin for, and the money comes directly from the folks in the area who by default benefit the most from the services rendered.

The problem comes when a city council or suchlike decides to use the property tax as their personal piggy bank - and this is avoidable or fixable in many ways, although hiring an Anarchist as a political hitman isn't exactly the best way to go about it thankee verra much!

Firstoff, is to make that budget PUBLIC, and published quarterly, so that the people being taxed know where it's going.

Second, is to give them their say on any changes to it, instead of allowing the ruling council to act like petty lords.

And Third - my reccommendation, this - is to give out a form with the property tax request which shows a percentage breakdown of where the money goes, complete with suggested dollar valuation for each category for the projected budget - but with the taxpayer making the final decision of what goes where.

So if you wanna shift a couple bucks here and there, you simply add or subtract from those amounts as required, and the council works with the budget they have - might get tricky the first three years when folks realize they just unfinanced services they want/need, and have to re-vote another assessment, but it's entirely doable.

Now, waste, e

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, October 8, 2009 9:12 PM

Frem, why arn't these things paid for with our "state tax"?

KWICKO

Thursday, October 8, 2009 9:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Rather be king over the dipshits, than the rabble of dipshits...assclown.

'Course, you completely missed the point - that you're still a dipshit, either way!

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, October 8, 2009 9:13 PM

Or of course I could just howl and throw things...
*glares at everybody*
And then whinge that the discussion is going nowhere.

ETA - you don't "educate" folk with a stick upside the head, folks... well, unless you're Mikey, but seriously people!

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, October 8, 2009 9:15 PM

Ehh.

Like I said.

Need to make a new persona. Someone nice, forgiving... but still puts the issues out there for discussions.

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, October 8, 2009 9:19 PM

Some days here, I really feel like Tony Ja.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, October 8, 2009 9:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Frem, why arn't these things paid for with our "state tax"?

Because State Taxes have a larger scale of function, and it's damned unwise to have someone 200 miles away deciding what to budget for YOUR sewer system, if they can even be bothered - it would bog the process down worse than it already is into miutae(sp?) and open even worse avenues of corruption which would be harder to block.

One of the founders ideals, and where a good bit of the concept of states rights came from was that decisions are best made by the folks closest to the action, who will benefit or suffer from the immediate impact.

Having property taxes finance the things at arms reach actually REMOVES the Feds and the State from the process to some degree, keeping their grasping, meddling hands out of it, which is kinda what you want, in a way.

It's also one of the better examples of when and why a tax actually has a USE, and a direct one you can see when you look out your door at the stuff it bought you and your community.

State, that goes to highways, agencies, social programs, but dude, let's start small and work our way up, ok ?

For now you're only one dude - you not only need experience, you need allies, and getting them should also be a priority, which means NOT throwing rotten fruit yourself, even if you're buried in it, yes it sucks, but you got at least one person willing to advise you, and that trumps none.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

PIRATENEWS

Thursday, October 8, 2009 9:24 PM

I forget, is it called Bill For Privileges, or Bill Of Rights?

99% of all litigation is govt suing the sheeple, 99% of whom cannot afford a lawyer, so it's like shooting ducks in a barrel.

Today I found out on the phone a judge signed an order last month banning me from subpoenaing govt witnesses to testify they illegally hide public records. The court clerk and prosecutor refuse to send me copies of orders and motions against me, which is the crime of contempt of court. How many other sheeple do they do that to?

When a crime is perped against you, there's a 50% probability the crook is a salaried police informant with immunity from arrest. Your only hope of making an arrest is to do it yourself. This applies to ALL crimes, including cartheft, rape and murder.

99% of all laws are unconstitutional, and politicians brag they don't even read the laws they pass, and usually don't even vote for them because they don't even go to work. It costs $100,000 and 10 years for a lawyer to overturn 1 law, and there are over 50-million laws in USA, changing every day. So logistically its impossible for us to overturn bogus laws. Politicians and police never obey the laws they enforce against US.

Mafia run the monopoly garbage contracts for govt with a 1,000% "Mafia Tax on Garbage" (A&E TV's Modern Mobs). This is pretty much how most govt contracts work, using no-bid "cost plus" (blank check) accounting. Especially when govt owns golf courses and hotels for their special friends (who pay bribes).

CAFR profits can replace ALL taxes, and pay for free college. If you don't know what a CAFR is, how can you call yourself a citizen?

NONE of IRS income tax is used to fund ANY govt program. ALL IRS income taxes go to private banks, mostly offshore. Every penny the govt spends is borrowed from Commie China, Saudi Arabia or printed out of thin air.

It's madness!

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, October 8, 2009 9:31 PM

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

Thing is, in practice you only have the "rights" you are willing to take and enforce - and by that I don't mean violence, if you wanna smoke a doobie in your shed, you don't have to clout someone to do it, just be discreet.

We're the sovereigns, not the peons, and it's time we acted it - and NOT in the way of petulant children throwing a tantrum, protests and verbal roasting of politicos has it's place, but should not soley be the basis of our efforts.

Don't THINK like a peon starting a bread revolt, think like a KING exploiting the weaknesses of the nobility to benefit his people.

Have any of you even READ Machiavelli ?!
Yeesh.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, October 8, 2009 9:35 PM

And I have to go take meds and lay down, alas.

Two last things.

First, quit throwin nasty back at people, Wulf, it accomplishes nothing and bogs your efforts into he-said-she-said where they flounder and become useless, every single time you stoop to mud wrestling.
(and there was a visual I never needed....)

Second, seriously, go to your township or city council and demand a copy of the budget, most places, they'll HAVE to give you one either for free or a minimal printout cost...
Then READ the bloody thing and get back with me, k ?

Gnite for now.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

NIKI2

Thursday, October 8, 2009 9:36 PM

Thanx Frem...you spent the time and energy I'm not willing to in answering both questions.

Now, do me a favor: Watch and see the next time Wulf bitches and moans about property taxes and how they should be abolished. He will, I can all but guarantee it. What will be your opinion on "educating" then, if I may be so bold?

You may or may not have noticed that I treat him reasonably when he's reasonable, but more and more I'm seeing that the next time something comes up, his opinion hasn't changed one whit--so why keep bothering?

Let's see...

Wulf suggested property taxes.

A flag was put up by OTB.

Wulf put up a flag.

Another flag and a "kuddos" was put up by OTB

I responded to your post

Wulf snarked me.

I responded and explained

Wulf snarked me again.

You responded to his property taxes

Wulf asked a further question

Mike snarked Wulf.

You snarked everyone (somewhat gently). You said the topic was going nowhere, but it WAS...you had replied, Wulf had asked a further question.

Wulf complained TWICE about being picked on and put up another video.

You answered his question.

Do you not see a pattern here? Do you REALLY think Wulf will do the things you suggested? I say again...next time he complains about property taxes, I'd like to hear what you have to say.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, October 8, 2009 9:44 PM

I give as good as I get, Niki.

But Frem is right, I need to go after my city council. Not sit here.

NIKI2

Thursday, October 8, 2009 9:51 PM

Giving as good as you get accomplishes nothing, Wulf, something you have yet to learn. You want to have serious discussions? Listen to Frem:

Quote:
First, quit throwin nasty back at people, Wulf, it accomplishes nothing and bogs your efforts into he-said-she-said where they flounder and become useless

Otherwise, few if any will take you seriously.

You don't even "give as good as you get"...there are plenty of examples. You "give" far more "good" (NOT) than you get, and do it first a lot of the time just because someone disagrees with you, not because they snarked you. Your choice whether to make the baggage, but if you do, you carry it with you wherever you go.

I'd bet dollars to donuts you never go down to your City Council. Oh, wait, you said "after" your City Council. Are you saying you don't agree with anything Frem said, and are still against property taxes?

Like Frem, I gotta go. Spent too much time here as it is...most of it wasted. I never learn.

________________________
Together we are greater than the sum of our parts

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, October 8, 2009 9:56 PM

Actually yes. Surprise...

I know Frem thinks hes saying the right thing... but I can't get past the idea that I'm (supposed to be) paying taxes on property I already own (car) AFTER I've already paid TAXES for it when I bought the goddamned thing!

So yeah. Frem and I disagree about this.

I bought my car with cash, paid the taxes for it... why do I STILL need to pay taxes for it?

So yea. I need to go "after/see" my city council about this garbage.

ETA: Not that it will do any good. But lets see what happens.

At the very fucking least, I'll be DOING something about this clusterfuck.

PERFESSERGEE

Thursday, October 8, 2009 10:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Actually yes. Surprise...

I know Frem thinks hes saying the right thing... but I can't get past the idea that I'm (supposed to be) paying taxes on property I already own (car) AFTER I've already paid TAXES for it when I bought the goddamned thing!

So yeah. Frem and I disagree about this.

I bought my car with cash, paid the taxes for it... why do I STILL need to pay taxes for it?

So yea. I need to go "after/see" my city council about this garbage.

Greetings folks! I used to post here quite a bit but haven't in a long time. But I've lurked a good bit and thought I'd start again with a comment on this thread. Wulf, I think you have a misunderstanding about property taxes, or your state does things differently than every other state I've ever heard of. Property taxes are normally levied on real property (houses and land). You may have to pay registration fees for your car, but that's normally a state fee; property taxes are local. They are also universal and have been since human society first organized itself. The only people throughout history who didn't have to pay them were absolute rulers like kings and emperors - even the nobility paid property taxes.

And if you'd like to see what happens when you radically reduce them, all you have to do is look at California, where I live. We didn't even completely get rid of them, we just gutted local government via the utterly stupid but famous Proposition 13. It not only screwed up what had been one of the best public school systems in the nation, it transferred political control to the State govt, as counties simply couldn't pay for them. He who pays the bills gets to say what they pay for. Prop 13 also forced local govts to rely on sales taxes, which are frighteningly regressive and now outrageously high. And they now have to compete with each other ferociously for commercial developments that generate those sales taxes. If you haven't noticed how financially and politically dysfunctional California is, you haven't been paying attention.

Now getting rid of the sales tax, that I could go for (but we'd have to figure out how to pay for the services we want and aren't about to give up). Californians are good at shooting themselves in both feet with a machine gun. I wouldn't suggest following our example.

perfessergee

ETA for formatting

SIGNYM

Thursday, October 8, 2009 11:25 PM

Quote:
I give as good as I get, Niki.

Baby, you are treated with figgin' kid-gloves. You spam video clip after video clip of nothing in particular, and then get upset when peeps don't talk about YOUR topic???

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, October 9, 2009 1:06 AM

Quote:
why do I STILL need to pay taxes for it?

Because SOMEBODY has to pay the trashmen to pick up the cans, silly!

You're paying for continuing services, and the amount you pay is related to how much "value" of the area you personally own, which is about as "fair" an assessment as is possible to get without everyone howling their head off.

Yes, there are abuses of the assessment process, and I'll walk you through that, but only AFTER you've read the budget and understood it's contents.

It's not a penalty for owning something, cause renters pay it too, it's a valid cost of the services in question - but getting a better bid, and chopping out the pork is always a viable option.

And let's us be honest, YOU want them services, *I* want them services, Anarchist that I am, and this *IS* a pretty good way to pay for them.

On the other hand, when you have budget in hand, and see the graft and largess, THEN you'll be cussin, and we'll discuss it further then.

Fair enough ?
(And it looks like my arse is gettin wet tonite, cause GUESS who has to walk rounds, arrrgh)

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

SIGNYM

Friday, October 9, 2009 1:12 AM

BTW- I agree with Rue. This guy pre-supposes that the a "second revolution" is necessary, and that going back to some mythic "small-government libertarian republic" will solve all of our problems.

It won't.

First of all, concerning states rights as being an answer: States can be just as tyrannical as the Federal govenment, and can abridge freedom just as badly it not worse. (It was states that wanted slavery, you may recall.) Being a "republic" is not an answer either.

I agree that our Federal government has gone off-track, but mainly in its service to corporations. But there is nothing to says that a smaller government, or state governments, will do any better, and may possibly do quite a bit worse.

As a side note- I noticed that the one person who really DID respond to your post (Rue)- you didn't respond to! So I doubt your claim to want a discussion, since you don't seem to be discussing!

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 9, 2009 1:13 AM

Actually here in my state, we HAVE to pay property taxes for our cars.

Now, between my wife and I, we own 2 cars... which amounts to about 200 bucks every 4 months. (600 bucks a year. Not much I suppose, but its the principle, dammit)

I CANNOT believe that I have to pay property taxes for property that I already own, and bought in another state! How does that even work?

But I do need to look at where and for what my money is going for.

RUE

Friday, October 9, 2009 1:14 AM

I've been waiting for that discussion that never quite seems to happen.

HELLLOOOO ... ... helllooo ... helllooo ...

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

ANTHONYT

Friday, October 9, 2009 1:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ehh.

Like I said.

Need to make a new persona. Someone nice, forgiving... but still puts the issues out there for discussions.

Hello,

You can re-invent yourself without pretending to be someone new. If one were to reach back far enough into the morass of history, one would find me endorsing a wide range of policies I now abhor.

Even my behavior is more even-tempered than it used to be. (I think.)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 9, 2009 1:27 AM

1. If you do, say why.

2. "Ahem. He means FEDERAL power. And there are limits to FEDERAL power - called the Bill of Rights. It's the STATES that have unlimited power."

The Bill of Rights, which have been trampled, by both the State and the Federal?

3. "As happens cyclically with capitalism, regardless of government."

Name another capitalist society quite like ours. Also, had we been following the checks and balances, capitalism would be curbed.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"The tragedy is that the American people do not know why the economy collapsed."

I do.

"(by republic) I mean a government exercising limited powers delegated to it by the people ..."

According to him. But according to definition "The most common definition of a republic is a state without a monarch." Isn't he being just like the Red Queen: "A Word Means What I Say it Means; no More, no Less" ? I prefer the more common definition of words. And, why should I care what he says about any of it, if it's based on a bogus definition ?

"In a democracy, there are no real limits to government power."

Ahem. He means FEDERAL power. And there are limits to FEDERAL power - called the Bill of Rights. It's the STATES that have unlimited power.

"What is happening now is judgment day, the day of reckoning, the day the national Ponzi scheme collapsed."

As happens cyclically with capitalism, regardless of government.

"... let’s recognize what the Founders understood in 1776, that any republic has the right to withdraw from a union when it so chooses."

Probably true. But then, India and West and East Pakistan did just that, and look how well that worked out. I suspect that if you can't find a way to live together, you will be fighting endless border wars with each other.

"The sad truth is, though we want to restore the spirit of the American Revolution, we are outnumbered by Red Coats! ... a smaller, more dedicated army, with a just cause, can prevail against a larger, mercenary force."

AHA ! They (us damn 90 percenters) are not TRUE Americans ! They (us !) are Redcoats and mecenaries !

"Let’s take a quick look at the American Revolution."

Supported by about 45% percent of the population opposed by about 40%, with the rest undecided. Nope, this does not support the idea of a 'small' segment of the population going it alone.

"... if the American people understood one simple principle ... we could shrink the size of government by 90% in three months. All resources are scarce."

Except human resources, which are multiplicative.

"Republican government exists to protect private property."

Is that there in the Constitution ? The Bill of Rights ? Can anyone find me a quote on that ?

"Direct citizen action is hardly a new concept ... it’s what Gandhi used to topple the British Empire."

He would do SO much better if he didn't overstate the facts. He didn't topple the empire, rather, mass action helped get them out of the subcontinent. And again, it involved MASS LARGE SCALE action by many, many people. Small groups of teabaggers don't qualify.

"Boycott the bankers of the political class."

Great idea !
Who are they ? Can I buy a car made by them ? Can I get a home loan from them ? Is Wal-mart one of them ?

"What I’m saying is that judges should follow the law and should not lie to jurors!"

And I do that - how ?

"If any politician tells you they will improve your life, they’re lying. Don’t believe them."

It seems to work pretty well in Europe whose people have a higher standard of living than here.

***************************************************************

Maybe some people will buy this - I'm guessing people already pre-disposed to not like Obama will find a way to justify their dislike. I prefer to deal with what he does, or doesn't do, in actual fact.

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 9, 2009 1:33 AM

Doing some more research here... apparently its NOT my entire state... just my county (and a few others) that charges a car tax... smh

KWICKO

Friday, October 9, 2009 1:45 AM

Well, there ya go - you need to take this up with your CITY council, not go all apeshit over-the-top "it's time for a revolution!" crazy.

And when that doesn't work, start organizing, and get active. And when THAT doesn't work, game the system the way everyone else does: register those cars in another county! :)

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, October 9, 2009 1:51 AM

Good, doin the homework is worth the time - find out what it goes to, and who makes the decisions, then if you have an issue, lean on THEM, right ?

Simple process, lather, rinse, repeat.

If you start LOCAL, you begin to understand the complexity and realize not all taxes are automatically "evil" - some of them are more along a mutual agreement to collectively bargain for services in order to get a good bulk rate on them, many of which I got little problem with.

And some of which I do - but in order to rightfully HAVE an issue with it, first you gotta find out where the money goes and how, or no one is gonna take you seriously for even thirty seconds.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

DREAMTROVE

Friday, October 9, 2009 2:10 AM

Common sense tax approach: Don't owe any. Everyone should stay below the poverty line. There are plenty of ways to "get your due" for work in an untaxable manner, such as non-liquid assets. If you have too much income, you probably have not enough allies. Spread your income across your allies.

The whole set up is a trick: People have education debt, mortgage debt, car debt, credit card debt, all of which is coming out of their income. So, really, very few people have disposable income above the poverty line, it's just that the whole system is tricked out to make you pay the max tax.

Dodge FICA by having an alternate means of support, run a small business, if need be, make that lose money, so it can have business expenses. That's why the country has gift shops: someone's tax loophole. Better than uncle sam's sinkhole.

SOCKPUPPET

Friday, October 9, 2009 9:42 AM

Quote:
Everyone should stay below the poverty line.

I prefer not-poverty. Possibly electing a government that spent less money would be more effective.

KWICKO

Friday, October 9, 2009 12:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by sockpuppet:
Quote:
Everyone should stay below the poverty line.

I prefer not-poverty. Possibly electing a government that spent less money would be more effective.

Good luck with that.

Oh - did you mean "electing a government that PROMISES to spend less money"? 'Cause I think we tried that - in 1980, '84, '88, '92, '96, 2000, 2004, 2008...

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

SIGNYM

Friday, October 9, 2009 1:34 PM

Quote:
Name another capitalist society quite like ours.

Nothing will every be "quite like" anything, but England, during the Industrial Revolution had many parallels: exploited masses vying with the colonies (India) for jobs, worldwide empire, ultra wealthy who thought the whole problem with England was the poor, unwashed, uneducated...

Your argument all boils down to the assumption that "big gubmint" is bad. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.

And indeed, I can point a a vast number of problems with OUR government:

Worldwide military/ covert intervention. Most of our interventions abroad had nothing to do with fighting tyranny or spreading democracy. From at least Woodrow Wilson (who was violently anti-worker) forward, we consistently tromped in, in favor of oligarchs and tyrants under the name of "anti-communism", crushing movements for land reform, minimum wage, unionism, and national sovereignty of resources (aka "nationalization"). I could list you example after example, but I'm short of time, so for now the conclusion is that outside of WWI and WWII I would be hard-pressed to find more than a couple military interventions that were NOT in support of capitalism.

Imposition of NAFTA and WTO rules.

The Great Treasury Giveaway of 2008. (Don't forget, this was started under BUSH.)

Consistent rulings and/or lack of action in favor of corporate power and corporate monopolies.

Shredding the Constitution over a phony War on Terrorism. (Or the War on Drugs, for that matter.)

Creating the Fed, and giving up the power to create currency.

-----------------
OTOH, I can point to some stellar successes that ONLY a Federal government could have created:

The interstate highway system.

The EPA, which handles interstate pollution issues.

The FDA, which (until recently) kept most bad products off the market.

The internet.

Social Security- which, despite its detractors does a far better job than "the market" in ensuring a liveable future for our elderly.

Medicare, which - like SS- does a far better and cheaper job than its private counteraprts ensuring health care for the elderly.
-------------------

Yes, there is the potential for great harm in a centralized system. There is also the potential for great good, as exemplified by the EU countries. Why can they get it better, but not us??? Apparently, it has something to do with the European approach of improving on what is, instead of tearing everything down and starting over from scratch, and over, and over, and over.... (They apply this philosophy to their educational system as well.)

It all boils down to the corrosive influence of MONEY in our elections. Years ago, I realized the paradigm for our elections is "One dollar, one vote". Where does that money come into play???

TO FUND CAMPAIGNS.

And WHY is money so important?

TO BUY ADVERTIZING TIME.

We could eliminate at least 50% of the problem by simply REQUIRING THE MASS MEDIA TO COVER ALL VIABLE CANDIDATES FOR FREE.

It's already in the FCC Charter: Bandwidth-which is limited- is considered to be owned by the people. It is LICENSED by the FCC to private entities with the obligation to IMPROVED PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE.

So, let's start there.

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 9, 2009 1:48 PM

"Most of our interventions abroad had nothing to do with fighting tyranny or spreading democracy."

Indeed. Had we been following the Constitution, which is strictly non-interventionist, we never would have had these problems.

"The internet." This was a military program to keep all of the states in touch with each other in the event of a nuclear attack. Not really something good the Fed did, considering its now one of the main ways we are spied upon.

Also, my county is now having a 4 million dollar budget shortfall. Funny, how we pay some of the highest taxes in the state, and there is still a shortfall.

Seen a lot more cops patrolling and giving tickets. Duh, right?

Gotta do more research on WHY we have a budget shortfall.

Heh, maybe even look to running for city council. Wouldn't that be funny?

SIGNYM

Friday, October 9, 2009 1:56 PM

Wulf, I think that's a great idea.

Congrats on bird-dogging down your county's issues!

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 9, 2009 2:04 PM

Wow. We actually have a slush fund, and the money has mysteriously been "spent"... I have to get more details about where it went to.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

Meanwhile they are turning the traffic cameras back on, increasing police patrols, and are planning on upping the counties taxes...

All the while outsourcing the budgeting committee.

This is getting surreal.

DREAMTROVE

Friday, October 9, 2009 3:29 PM

Mike,

lol

Actually, it's somewhat disturbing the amount of policy that's decided by *unelected* officials. Anyone else noticed the vultures pouncing within the Obama govt. now, like McChrystal and oh damnit, just yesterday there was a story, oh it was about the Mexican thing, racial profiling to remove mexicans. It's looking like at some point Obama caved to someone and then everyone else said, "Oh look, he's a pushover" and pounced. I actually do feel sorry for the guy. I think the shadowmen and Clintonistas make policy which Obama will take the blame for.

Sig,

I think the problem with govt. is that whatever we get, it will be american govt. If you look at *our* govt. and its past accomplishments, the way it runs things, including a railroad, but not limited to a wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the fact is, our govt. If we really wanna improve things, screw the whole changing the system thing, just hand it over to the swedes in some govt contract and say "here, run our healthcare system for us."

WULFENSTAR

Friday, October 9, 2009 5:26 PM

"Wulf, I think that's a great idea.

Congrats on bird-dogging down your county's issues!"

Aim small, miss small.

Its a good a place to start as any.

KWICKO

Friday, October 9, 2009 5:57 PM

Quote:

I think the problem with govt. is that whatever we get, it will be american govt. If you look at *our* govt. and its past accomplishments, the way it runs things, including a railroad, but not limited to a wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the fact is, our govt. If we really wanna improve things, screw the whole changing the system thing, just hand it over to the swedes in some govt contract and say "here, run our healthcare system for us."

Ya know, why the hell not? I mean shit, we've outsourced every other goddamned thing in this country - and the other nations ARE getting better outcomes for fewer dollars with their healthcare systems. It's as American as anything Reagan, Clinton, or either Bush ever tried; just outsource that shit! And hell, it's not like it's any kind of security risk, right? I mean, we DID outsource port security to Qatar or the United Arab Emirates, right? (I can't remember which one at the moment, and too lazy - er, I mean too short of time - to go look it up. :) )

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

KWICKO

Friday, October 9, 2009 6:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Wulf, I think that's a great idea.

Congrats on bird-dogging down your county's issues!"

Aim small, miss small.

Its a good a place to start as any.

Damn straight.

And while you're perusing that budget, see if you can figure out how much of the tax money that's being COLLECTED locally is being SPENT locally. If you're in a city, there's about a 99% chance that your tax money is going to prop up some wonderful little hamlet where things still seem to be stuck in 1955. And if you're in a blue state, you've got about a 90% chance of having your federal tax money going to prop up a red state.

I know you're a big fan of secession, and everybody likes to dump on California, and I know you've praised that idiot piece of shit Rick "Looking for Mr. Goodhair" Perry that I'm saddled with as a governor, but seriously, look into where the money flows, and from whence it came. If any state seceded, California qould likely have the best chance of making it on its own. Texas? Not so much. And Alaska? Not a chance in hell, even if hell froze over; Alaska, if memory serves, takes more federal money per capita than any other state, relative to what it pays in (something like $2.xx paid out to Alaska for every dollar Alaska pays in). So much for rugged individualism, socialism, and spreading the wealth...

Mike

The percentage you're paying is too high-priced
While you're living beyond all your means;
And the man in the suit has just bought a new car
From the profit he's made on your dreams

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, October 9, 2009 6:21 PM

Quote:
Heh, maybe even look to running for city council. Wouldn't that be funny?

Do it, don't expect to get far on the first attempt - just be prepared for hilarity to ensue, local politics can get ridiculous.

Even if you don't get far you can at least worry them, harry them, and by doing so improve their standard of conduct.

As for the Internet, they mighta designed it that way, but it's also a serious double edged sword which BOTH sides can use, and barring outright destroying it, a weapon the powers that be have little or no defense against.

It's more of a benefit to us little people than it is to them, so score one for us!

Quote:
Wow. We actually have a slush fund, and the money has mysteriously been "spent"... I have to get more details about where it went to.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

I shouldn't laugh, but I am, a little - welcome to hell, Wulf!

I doubt they've left a paper trail, but if they, like many city councils, used a high interest credit line/card via a local bank they're getting kickbacks from, you can demand the statements - might even get em, since they SHOULD be public information and you can make the case that they are.

Quote:
Meanwhile they are turning the traffic cameras back on, increasing police patrols, and are planning on upping the counties taxes...

That I can help you with, even show you where to find backing.

http://www.motorists.org/photoenforce/
http://www.thenewspaper.com/

E-mail em both, they'll be pretty helpful.

Quote:
All the while outsourcing the budgeting committee.

That you can hang em on, but you'll have to find the relevant laws/codes/regs, and I assure you they will NOT help you do so - try the local librarian though, they usually know a lot about this stuff and can be a tremendously valuable ally.

Quote:
This is getting surreal.

Oh you ain't seen nothin yet - remember, I toldya local politics can get weird, you have NO IDEA how weird, just yet - but you will, grasshopper, you will.

Just remember to keep your cool though, cause the rage just fouls your thinking and gives them the edge against you - if you can enrage THEM, they'll start making mistakes you can exploit against them, especially if you have witnesses and/or recording devices, which you ALWAYS should - since they're a public official and it's a public conversation unless they specifically state otherwise.

And read machiavelli, skim it, at least - think like a KING exploiting nobiles, not like a peon starting a bread riot.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it