Individual, Personal, Self Defense.

POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 02:42
VIEWED: 5541
PAGE 1 of 1

WULFENSTAR

Sunday, August 23, 2009 5:54 PM

Where do you stand?

Do individuals/citizens of America, have the right to defend themselves by any means necessary?

(I'm talking about an imminent threat to your life. Not revenge.)

This might clear up a lot of arguments that people here keep dancing around.

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, August 23, 2009 8:43 PM

"But, but.. that's illegal!"
"Ask me if I give a shit."

Lemme come at this from a more reasonable angle, here.

I believe that any sentient creature has a natural, sovereign and inherent right to act in the immediate defense of itself without regard to constructs of law whatever.

Any creature on this planet, sentient or not, when faced with a perceived threat to itself will act in it's defense in some fashion.
It may flee, it may hide, it may even attack you, often while calling for help or warning off others of it's kind - and mans law means nothing to them regarding this.

I mean, if you really wanted to, you could outlaw the act of a skunk spraying someone - do you think this would matter to the skunk ?
Do you think the skunk would react (and in my opinion properly!) any differently when you went to serve a warrant on him for the "crime" ?

Mankind is the only creature on this planet that even TRIES to deny the inherent, natural right of self defense, not just to each other, but just as much to other creatures as well.

They Poll Herefords, Don't They?
http://www.jpfo.org/smith/smith-herefords.htm
" Here in the west, cattlemen may prefer to leave their free-ranging livestock intact, so they can defend themselves from cougars and other predators. But it has long been the practice of others (I looked this up later) to relieve the animals they raise of their horns. This keeps the critters from hurting one another -- costing their owners money -- it makes them much safer for workers to handle, and they clamp better into certain kinds of machinery so that various things can be done to them.

Whether they want it done or not."

Historically, most of the bloodier and more vicious fighting in the american revolution came right AFTER an attempt to disarm the populace, and in fact one of the many telling factors which made the american revolution successful was that knowing full and well such a measure had no purpose BUT tyranny, the leaders thereof acted to prevent the seizure of arms and powder without which the revolution would have been doomed if not stillborn.

History has proven them out, as compliance with such disarmament campaigns has very obvious historical results.
http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm#chart

The most classic example of this, and one kept FIRMLY in mind by those Anti-Federalists who would not be moved, and the teeth gritting Federalists who knew all too well what risks to their agenda publicly acknowledging this right would cause - would be the Battle of Kings Mountain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kings_Mountain

The overmountain boys, or Watauga Association, were basically a pack of self-rule Anarchists who mostly listened to John Sevier, when they listened to anyone at all - and they cared no more for the new would be overlords (i.e. the Founding Fathers) than they cared for the old ones (King George, etc.) - so as far as the 'revolution' went they didn't so much give a damn, especially as they'd ALREADY been flipping the the bird to the english crown for a couple years prior to any official or overt act.

And then that dipshit Major Ferguson made one of the all time classic military blunders by marching to the edge of their "turf" and demanding they lay down arms and bend the knee - which was about equivalent to sticking ones hand in the den of a grouchy wolvering and poking it.

The overmountain boys decided they'd had enough of his shit, marched on over there and flat out kicked his ass, engaging in hit and run skirmishing rather than a stand up battle (they didn't have bayonets) and making right damn sure to kill off the officers, particularly Ferguson, who tried to change coats when he realized this and got eight musketballs for his troubles.

That battle was integral to the debate between the Federalists and Anti-Federalists concerning what would become the second amendment because it proved that your average american yahoo if comparably armed could go toe to toe and win out against trained army regulars - s

DREAMTROVE

Sunday, August 23, 2009 9:18 PM

Frem. Good argument. I think the link gives too low a figure for Africa, too high for Europe: Germans killed 11 million unarmed civilians. The combatants they killed shouldn't be counted as "gun control victims" since they were themselves armed.

Africa, 7.7 million unarmed tutsis were killed, but not all in Rwanda, since as soon as things started heading south, Tutsis fled, but not far enough. The Hutu militia hunted them down and killed the local populations as well. I'm not sure about gun control in local countries, but they were largely socialist countries so it's quite likely.

Footnote: Israel agreed to transport jewish weapons out of Germany in exchange for certain jews to be allowed to escape unregistered. I don't have details on this deal, but maybe John does.

Overall, my position, you're right to swing your arms ends where my nose begins. This applies to individuals, corporations, nations, everyone.

Here are places that I think go too far:

1. If you swing your gun in my face, that's a violation if my fist is not already in your nose.

2. Your substance use is not my fist. If you drink, you're responsible for your own drunken actions, such as driving through the front wall of the store. IOW: No excuses.

3. In stopping any violation of the arm swing/nose nose bop rule I call "unilaw," no one can create a greater violation of unilaw. This means if a guy steals, you may attempt to stop him, but you can't kill him, unless his assault implies a mortal threat in some way.

It's just like, should you bop a mosquito, that is trying to bite you, and may carry a deadly disease, that's self defense. If you squash an ant which is carrying away a neatly extracted portion of a sandwich, then it is not okay to squash him. He is taking your sandwich, not killing you.

I actually watch at an office building on a weekend, an army of ants, marching single file, neatly disassemble an entire ham and cheese into portable sections, and then they all filed out the office, down the stairs, and under the door, just as they had come.

Worlds of scale.

Oh, and as I've said before: Every society needs one single rule to create stability: The right to leave.

PLAINJAYNE

Sunday, August 23, 2009 9:50 PM

ABSOLUTELY.

Day late an'a dollar short...Story of my ruttin' life!

GEEZER

Monday, August 24, 2009 12:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

I believe that any sentient creature has a natural, sovereign and inherent right to act in the immediate defense of itself without regard to constructs of law whatever.

I'd tend to extend this to the right to defend any other person the sovereign individual feels he/she has a responsibility for defense towards. This could be family, friends, a guest, a group with a mutual defense agreement, or pretty much anyone requiring aid aganst mortal threat that the individual feels called to help. Note I'd consider this a right, not a responsibility.

Then again, we might want to look at the complementary question of defense of property. Is "Tresspassers will be shot" a legitimate threat? Do I have a right to cap the guy running (slowly) away with my new flat-screen? Is someone in my house for (presumably) burglary enough of a threat to stop with mortal force?

I figure I got insurance and it's a lot cheaper than the cost of even a "good" shooting, so I'm letting the big-screen go unless I perceive a mortal threat to me or mine. Mind, with someone of unknown intent in my home the threshold of mortal threat might be kinda low.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

DREAMTROVE

Monday, August 24, 2009 1:32 AM

Sunuvubitchh

So I post the image first to get firsties, and then go back to add the text. Clever move on my part, no? Now I want you to just marvel at the quantity of text Frem was able to enter while I found and posted the image which can't have taken me more than a minute.

God Damn, I think I type fast.

Anyway

Quote:
I have little enough to add here, but imma add it.

There *are* corps with a de-facto monopoly you know.

While admittedly more common now, still, try finding an office to work in that is not dependent on microsoft products for their productivity and recordkeeping ?

Or better, in most cities, try finding an electrical or water service provider other than the established one.

S'why I make so little distinction between Governments and Corporations, cause in the US, in this day and age, they're just different tentacles of the same octopus.

Good point, transplanted from a more useless thread, but I would only say "An octopus is a relatively intelligent animal"

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, August 24, 2009 7:23 AM

Quote:
God Damn, I think I type fast.

It only NOW occurs to you that my minimum battle rattle at the keyboard is 88wpm and runs into triple digits when hyperfocused on a pet subject?

Hell, I've had that Underwood Five in my closet since I was eleven, and it's machinegun rattle was a prime indicator that I was either doin homework or having at some idiot adult who often enough had NO IDEA that the letter they received was pounded out by someone not old enough to drive - a fact which when revealed caused a little consternation in the local paper since they'd published a couple of em.

I type fast, read faster and since I initially use a comparative processing with a stack of pre-set plans and variations, seem almost pre-emptive in thought - by the time someone has finished explaining the PROBLEM I got a plan picked, fleshed out and open at page one with handy diagrams set up in my head already.

You didn't think I actually spent that kinda time on this idle chatter with friends and associates, did you ? where the heck would I find it ?

-F

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Monday, August 24, 2009 9:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Where do you stand?

Do individuals/citizens of America, have the right to defend themselves by any means necessary?

(I'm talking about an imminent threat to your life. Not revenge.)

This might clear up a lot of arguments that people here keep dancing around.

I know it is not allowed in Florence County, WI. Whether from attackers intending to kill you in public view (a bar, caught on tape) or invading your home with their machetes, swords, hatchets, and daggers, if you defend yourself there you go to prison - and the DA gets re-elected to boot. But the attackers, attempted murders get zilch, maybe a slap on their wrist.

DT, that wasn't his typing, that's mostly his signature.

AGENTROUKA

Monday, August 24, 2009 10:11 AM

Wulf-

since you're limiting your question to Americans, are you talking about people's legal interpretations or about their ethical convictions?

HERO

Monday, August 24, 2009 12:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
since you're limiting your question to Americans, are you talking about people's legal interpretations or about their ethical convictions?

Only the legal standard that applies.

The law recognizes self defense, but that does not make you innocent. It is an affirmative defense, meaning that by making the claim you are admitting the underlying elements of the criminal case. You must then prove that you meet the elements of the affirmative defense.

So:
"Do individuals/citizens of America, have the right to defend themselves by any means necessary?

(I'm talking about an imminent threat to your life. Not revenge.)"

Yes...maybe...and, no. It depends on your states individual determinations of the meaning of:
"defend"
"any means"
"necessary"
"imminent"
"threat"
"your"
"life"

All of those terms have legal definitions determined either by statute, common law, legal precedent...or most likely a combination of all of those things.

For example. You can't shoot a nuclear missile at someone who is driving drunk, despite the threat they pose to your life. You can shoot someone with a pistol who is in the process of shooting you.

Those are the two extremes...the actual line is somewhere in between.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

AGENTROUKA

Monday, August 24, 2009 1:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
since you're limiting your question to Americans, are you talking about people's legal interpretations or about their ethical convictions?

Only the legal standard that applies.

I figured since Wulf starts out with "Where do you stand" and intends to see arguments cleared up regarding things that are "danced around", he might be referring to people's personal ethics rather than the letter of the law.

PATCHIST

Monday, August 24, 2009 2:16 PM

@thread starter: I think you should set the parameters clearly. Your thread can be taken in by a lot of ways. Are you looking for insight on self defense by means of unintentional law breaking?

WULFENSTAR

Monday, August 24, 2009 3:15 PM

I recently got into a conversation with my local book-dealer.....

She said, and I'm quoting here, "I could never use violence against another person."

So, I asked her, "Well what if they were hurting you or members of your family...?"

She said "No. Im a pacifist, I could never harm another person."

So, being the uncouth bastard that I am, I told her that if someone was hurting me or my family... the only thing that would stop me is if I ran out of bullets. And probably not even then.

She gave me the nastiest look, and I quickly exited the store....

So, my question is, where do you stand? Is self defense an inerrant right, one that should be unquestioned? Would you, in a self-defense situation, act violently to protect yourself or others? With any tools you have, or the best ones you could get?

(ETA) I'm probably going to start missing issues/books I ordered from there...*sigh.

DREAMTROVE

Monday, August 24, 2009 3:23 PM

What? No Stenotype?

That was 1300 words in the time it took my to find that image, not that long. I concur, one of the most humorous moments, reminiscent of Indy, but you gotta appreciate the set up for that one. It was awesome.

I used to have a mind like that, until I was a Pharma Guinea pig for three years. I intend to find my way back there. I'm pretty sure it's a chemical imbalance they created, not actual damage. Undoing it means not only understanding censor receptivity etc. but how to exacerbate it.

I actually asked my shrink last time: Is there a way you can *cause* psychosis? But of course everything is somewhat counter intuitive. Somewhat because you have to take one step in the wrong direction to generation a counter-action from your brain, two steps, and you're hurdling in the wrong direction, and you might not come back. Meanwhile, you don't want to move too far in the direction of psychosis, because though focus is great, you never want to lose perspective. I've been there.

I assume that's two keys at once, did you practice the relative positions of all key pairings?

Edit: Underwood, 1923, with the red and the black ink. I really learned to type with Aztec and Ultima, kb games, not so much type attack

DREAMTROVE

Monday, August 24, 2009 3:28 PM

Wulf

With the bookdealer. After all, she had books, which are much more powerful weapons than guns.

BYTEMITE

Monday, August 24, 2009 4:20 PM

I'm a pacifist too, but I'm also a completely vicious bitch. It comes from my school yard days, can't help it, I size everyone up in case I have to fight them, and also think of ways to use my environment and to fight in not-nice ways. Often my own thoughts disturb me with how violent and bloody they are.

If someone did threaten anyone around me with a gun, or if I was to witness an attempt at rape, yes, I would attack, and reflexively so, in one of the patterns that I had already been rehearsing in my head.

This weekend, I was trying on old pants to throw out, and my thought process for one of them was "fits, looks nice for some kind of tight-pants, but could not kick anyone if wearing them."

And then I realized that was bizarre. Then threw the pants out anyway.

AGENTROUKA

Monday, August 24, 2009 4:36 PM

How old was that book-dealer?

I think most people very instinctively try to defend themselves and certainly their loved ones, though the extend to which they might take it is very different.

To me, self-defense per se is an obvious right. If you attack me, I have the right to defend myself.

But proportion plays a role. There IS a line where self-defense ends and revenge or aggressive attack begins, even if the other party is clearly doing a wrong thing. For some this line doesn't matter, for some it's closer and for others further away. It's very difficult to make solid rules about that.

Generally, if your attacker is incapacitated and you have the opportunity to escape, that's where self-defense ends. Shooting someone until you're out of bullets.. either they are immortal to begin with, or you're committing definite overkill, no pun intended. In that case, I no longer consider it self-defense but revenge, excusable only if you are clearly traumatized and out of your mind. If someone hit you and then has stepped away, approaching them to get your own hit in is not self-defense. That sort of thing.

ANTHONYT

Monday, August 24, 2009 4:39 PM

Hello Byte,

It's not that bizarre. I think lots of people think this way, and don't express it because it's not politically correct.

Someone I respect once expressed a dark sentiment to me, and I couldn't really find a problem with it other than it was an uncomfortable thought.

"Be polite and helpful to everyone you meet," he said, "and always have a plan to kill them."

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

AGENTROUKA

Monday, August 24, 2009 4:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'm a pacifist too, but I'm also a completely vicious bitch. It comes from my school yard days, can't help it, I size everyone up in case I have to fight them, and also think of ways to use my environment and to fight in not-nice ways. Often my own thoughts disturb me with how violent and bloody they are.

Without wanting to sound judgmental, I cannot decide whether I find that admirably prepared or deeply disturbing. Possibly it's the part where you say your own thoughts disturb you. Every single person you meet? Is that stressful or more of a vague background thing that doesn't impact how you actually interact with a person?

You certainly seem well-set to defend yourself, in either case.

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, August 24, 2009 4:49 PM

BYTE

That's damn eerie.

In fact, it's almost appalling to see one's own thought processes and decision making structures in another person, especially knowing what a bitter crucible they tend to be forged in.

Admittedly I am quite curious, and yet would not wish to intrude on your privacy - but I will say that your entire cognition, so far as I have seen, is extraordinarily close to mine about 10-12 years ago, minus a hefty chunk of cynicism and bitterness I hope never creeps up on you the way it did me.

Balancing that dark side's a bitch sometimes, innit ?

-F

WULFENSTAR

Monday, August 24, 2009 5:05 PM

Is it really the dark-side tho?

Being prepared, isnt really a bad thing.

BYTEMITE

Monday, August 24, 2009 5:12 PM

By all means, judge.

I think I'm crazy. I function normally, but I'm positive I'm completely mind-bogglingly nuts, and I don't even know how deep the rabbit hole goes. I think you could throw darts at a psychological/personality disorder board, and you might hit every single one.

All I can say is that I don't want to hurt anyone, but if I'm honest, that wasn't always the case. I'm pretty sure, until about when I was twelve, that I was a high-functioning socially intelligent psychopath.

And I think that IRL, it could be pretty easy to trigger me into a psychopathic episode. Especially since the bad thoughts haven't gone away.

To answer your question, yes, every single person I meet face-to-face. It's why I prefer to talk with people over the internet, and why I will never, ever agree to meet any of them IRL. It's one of the reasons I will never form any romantic attachments (plus I'm not interested), and why I try to keep myself pretty much isolated.

It doesn't impact how I interact with people, at least holy hell I hope it doesn't. It's likely stress, likely a lot of paranoia and distrust, but no, I have no excuse or explanation for it other than I'm bonkers. I was raised by a decent family in a decent home. School probably exacerbated it, I was bullied a lot, but that's still no excuse.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, August 24, 2009 5:30 PM

A sociopath is someone who cannot feel empathy towards other people. In a very real sense, they can't feel, period. But when it comes to others, they draw a blank.

But what about the person who feels everyones elses pain? The ones who know, through experience, what another person feels?

After a while, Im sure it gets tiring.

DREAMTROVE

Monday, August 24, 2009 5:31 PM

I invite everyone to go critique my profile of a psychopath at the end of the "Who wants to marry a psychopath" thread. I'm afraid that this is a few steps in that direction.. but only a couple. Myself, I feel confident in my ability to talk myself out of any situation, and have come to the point of realizing this means learning more languages, religions and communications skills.

Still, I've known people who think this way, and beyond, hence the profile I made for this killer. I'm interested to hear the critiques.

BYTEMITE

Monday, August 24, 2009 5:54 PM

Quote:
A sociopath is someone who cannot feel empathy towards other people. In a very real sense, they can't feel, period. But when it comes to others, they draw a blank.

Hence why I say I was a psychopath before I was twelve. I was more of a straight on violent anti-social type than I was a systematic manipulator, didn't really steal from people or other rule-breaking like that. Had delusions of grandeur, saw myself as some kind of hero. Pose a threat to me or my friends, and I was going to take you down, hard, didn't matter if you were five grades higher than me or several feet taller. And I knew how to get out of it without even a slap on the wrist while leaving whoever my target was stuck in a bureaucratic nightmare.

Never really had any trouble with my friends, didn't make them do stuff for me or manipulate them and wasn't the jealous type, but remorse and empathy were definitely lacking. Had a rule to never say I was sorry, and the crap I put my parents through was pretty much heartless.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, August 24, 2009 6:05 PM

Manipulation.

Its a double-edged sword.

On the one hand, you can use it for good. To help you lead people into battle against a great evil. (See Adama in BSG... yes Im a total geek)

Or.

You can use it for evil. Manipulate a childs mind, in order to molest them.

Its just one of those things.

Whether you think you can talk your way out of any situation.... which Im sorry, is just a fallacy... or shoot your way out of anything (which is sometimes just as stupid)...

You have to ask, is self defense a given right?

AGENTROUKA

Monday, August 24, 2009 6:06 PM

Bytemite-

As I said, I don't want to judge and I have no business doing so. I almost feel bad for commenting, but you seem okay writing about it, so thank you for replying.

It's sad to read how concerned you are with your state of mind, but the fact that your violent thoughts make you uncomfortable to a degree is weirdly reassuring.

...that's horribly insensitive of me. Sorry.

I definitely wish you the best!

BYTEMITE

Monday, August 24, 2009 6:10 PM

My brain doesn't even go that far. Rights? I'm not thinking about RIGHTS if I get into a fight.

Thought process:
Threat? Yes. Towards me? Attack. Towards someone else? Who's the aggressor? Attack.

AGENTROUKA

Monday, August 24, 2009 6:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:

You have to ask, is self defense a given right?

You keep repeating this part. Do you want to make a particular point or have you actually met people who didn't consider it their right to defend themselves? I don't think, for example, that the bookdealer you mentioned didn't consider self-defense a right. From what you described, she would choose not to exercise that right.

BYTEMITE

Monday, August 24, 2009 6:17 PM

There's just no point in lying about it. If people still want to know me, I want them to know me with open eyes, knowing what I'm capable of. Anything else would be irresponsible.

BYTEMITE

Monday, August 24, 2009 6:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
My brain doesn't even go that far. Rights? I'm not thinking about RIGHTS if I get into a fight.

Thought process:
Threat? Yes. Towards me? Attack. Towards someone else? Who's the aggressor? Attack.

Actually, that's GENERALLY my thought process. There is a recent exception I can think of.

A couple months ago, when I was getting lunch at my usual place, I was about to tear a couple of assholes a new one for the insulting remarks they were making about a girl who works there. And preparing to go after them when they ran.

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, August 24, 2009 6:42 PM

.....

*shock*

Eeeeeee.. holy crap!

You're... ME?!

brain.. broken.

just, just.. nothing i can say to it, nothin you don't already know.

pardon, imma go have a mild breakdown now.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, August 24, 2009 6:45 PM

Frem,

Stop fucking with the normals.

HKCAVALIER

Monday, August 24, 2009 7:28 PM

I don't think it's any accident that a discussion of violent self-defense has shaded into a conversation about mental health. The fundamental question the healing mind asks of itself is, "What do I do with my violent thoughts?"

An interesting inversion of Wulf's question would be, "Am I obligated to meet violence with violence?" Sure we all have a right to self-defense, but is it our duty?

I think the most important word in Wulf's original post is "necessary." "By any means necessary" does not mean "by any effed up means I can think of." It's about necessity, about need. Often enough, what we think we "need," when we look back at it, we find that we only "wanted," or that we were ruled by the fear of what the consequences might be if we didn't have the thing we only thought we needed. When is violence necessary, when is it needed?

Me, I see violence as aberrant, a fundamental failure, a disease. From a spiritual point of view, disease, like any painful circumstance, is a lesson. From a spiritual point of view, painful lessons become necessary when less violent lessons go unheeded.

The greatest lesson I learned from my years in Kung Fu school was that the more I learned, the less likely I was to need violence to solve my problems. People are intuitive beings and the predators among us tend to have a li'l spidey sense concerning who's an easy mark and who's to be avoided. And by predator, I don't just mean the desperate man with the knife in the alley, I also mean the power-tripping boss and the abusive friend or spouse. If you have a strong immune system, all sorts of diseases just pass you by. My Kung Fu training was like a major boost to my immune system against violence.

When I was in therapy and working the 12 steps there were so many times when I came to the decision, "I'm not going to take the abuse from (So-and-so) anymore," and coincidentally (or not! ), So-and-so never tried to bother me again. It was uncanny. I've never had to use any Kung Fu moves in earnest, but I've felt vastly more at home in the world and in my own skin ever since. I've learned something about what real power is. I've learned that I needn't be ruled by another's intentions, that I don't necessarily need to meet violence with violence. I've learned that in an important sense, the violence of another person is an invitation and sometimes all I need do is decline.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, August 24, 2009 7:50 PM

Good for you.

BYTEMITE

Monday, August 24, 2009 7:52 PM

That sounds like an epiphany I had in sixth grade.

I'd just moved from one school of pecking-order dumb-fuckery to another. And my first day, there was a kid, probably the school bully, who tried to pick a fight with me. I don't even know how it started, though I remember it was right outside the school doors, I'd just come out for recess. Well, he starts yelling at me, and pretty soon there's a ring around us of about ten or so, and he's trying to egg me on to fight him.

And I just look at him, at how his feet are too far apart, how he's got his hands up wrong on guard, and I just think of how many ways I can neatly take him apart in three moves. And then I realized that it wasn't even WORTH it. Just laughed, shook my head and walked away. They didn't bother me after that.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, August 24, 2009 8:24 PM

When I was in middle-school, these 2 girls I knew were fighting over some guy.

Before they fought, they tied back their hair, tied their bras tight, and kicked off their shoes. They also put vaseline on their faces.

While fighting, one pulled out a boxcutter. She cut the other from her temple down to her chin. Her flesh peeled from her face, and hung there swinging.

The "teachers" and "security" stood and watched.

Then, when I got jumped, one pulled a fucking steak knife, and slipped it into me. Ever felt that? Its not fun. I was lucky in that it bounced off my hip bone, and didnt hit my liver, or my kidney.

Not to mention when I got my knee bent the wrong way, when someone came after me with a bat.

After a while, I ended up in a private school. And, boy, was that fun. Especially when the school bully decided to push me.

Lol A spoiled little rich boy, 50 pounds overweight, used to getting his own way, and he picked the wrong kid. I mean, do I blame him? No. He was used to hammering on the spoiled, rich, snot kids.

The ones who grew up hearing that words can solve ALL problems.

I put his head through a porcelin toilet, chipped 2 of his teeth, and sprained his neck. I would have done worse, but the Social Studies teacher pulled me off him.

Fighting is human nature. You are either strong enough to survive, or you arnt. You are either a victim, or you find your goddamned teeth.

ETA: But thats just me. I could be wrong.

BYTEMITE

Monday, August 24, 2009 8:45 PM

The schools I went to were more about how much hamburger you could make someone. Fighting was more about exchanging punches until someone dropped unconscious. I recall one time someone tried to break my leg by trying to stomp down on it, but they missed. Some might have had shivs with them, never really ran across it in my fights. I'll readily say that these schools were nowhere near the sort of stuff that could go down at innercity schools.

Glad to hear the steak knife didn't hit anything vital. What happened to the girl with the face? Stitches?

The school bully I faced down was a joke though, a lot like yours, really honestly no real CLUE how to fight, probably just picking on the nice Mormon kids.

AGENTROUKA

Monday, August 24, 2009 8:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Fighting is human nature. You are either strong enough to survive, or you arnt. You are either a victim, or you find your goddamned teeth.

ETA: But thats just me. I could be wrong.

Having grown up not at all surrounded by that sort of violence, I think it's not a hard and fast rule about human nature.

Honestly, what I read there are two parallel worlds.

1) Horrible violence among kids and no adult intervened - something that you rightfully mention and that rightdully pisses you off.

2) You bringing that same horrible violence to a place where it didn't exist before, and being proud of it. Adults did intervene, but it serves only to underscore what all you could have done if they hadn't. It's like you're validating all the horrible stuff that happened before. Victim turning into attacker. Enjoying that power instead of rejecting it.

Seems to me that the lesson there is not that fighting is human nature, but that violence and neglect breed violence as a form of self-perpetuating damage.

ETA: From reading both your experiences and Byte's, I just want to congratulate you on surviving. What you went through is horrible and, if you'll excuse my speculating, explains quite a lot. It's unbelievably sobering.
I had the luxury of growing up in a cushy world, violence-wise. Doesn't make it a fake world, though.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, August 24, 2009 8:50 PM

She got stiches that ended up pulling down her left eye.

Lucky for her TLC was popular at the time.

The other chick got pregnant (from a highschooler).

Dropped out.

At 13.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, August 24, 2009 8:59 PM

"2) You bringing that same horrible violence to a place where it didn't exist before, and being proud of it. Adults did intervene, but it serves only to underscore what all you could have done if they hadn't. It's like you're validating all the horrible stuff that happened before. Victim turning into attacker. Enjoying that power instead of rejecting it."

LOL I went to a psychologist and started talking...you know what he said? "Would you mind writing this down? Im publishing a book...ect ect"

I asked him if I would get any money from the sales of his books. He laughed and said no, of course not...

I laughed too.

Then I told him to go fuck himself and never went back.

AGENTROUKA

Monday, August 24, 2009 9:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"2) You bringing that same horrible violence to a place where it didn't exist before, and being proud of it. Adults did intervene, but it serves only to underscore what all you could have done if they hadn't. It's like you're validating all the horrible stuff that happened before. Victim turning into attacker. Enjoying that power instead of rejecting it."

LOL I went to a psychologist and started talking...you know what he said? "Would you mind writing this down? Im publishing a book...ect ect"

I asked him if I would get any money from the sales of his books. He laughed and said no, of course not...

I laughed too.

Then I told him to go fuck himself and never went back.

Was that a very elaborate way of telling me not to comment on what you post?

WULFENSTAR

Monday, August 24, 2009 9:06 PM

Hey Byte,

What is up with the Pearle of Great Price?

lol

I knew Mormon kids. Crazy brave... or stupid. Could never figure that one out.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, August 24, 2009 9:06 PM

No Agent,

Just what you said sounded like what I heard.

Comment away.

AGENTROUKA

Monday, August 24, 2009 9:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
No Agent,

Just what you said sounded like what I heard.

Comment away.

I guess I still fail to see the connection between your story and my comment. Are you saying the psychologist said something similar? And that you didn't care for that?

I don't detect sarcasm well, just to warn you. If you want to tell me something, better say it plainly.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, August 24, 2009 9:16 PM

Ok.

Its easy, Agent, to sit back from a distance, and make proclamations about what you see. But until you've lived it, until you've been there, you shouldn't.

And for some, its a good idea to profit off of horror.

I meant no disrespect. You might be right. Its just that I can't fully accept it, until someone who has been there, says it.

AGENTROUKA

Monday, August 24, 2009 9:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Ok.

Its easy, Agent, to sit back from a distance, and make proclamations about what you see. But until you've lived it, until you've been there, you shouldn't.

And for some, its a good idea to profit off of horror.

I meant no disrespect. You might be right. Its just that I can't fully accept it, until someone who has been there, says it.

Fair enough. I didn't mean to imply that there was something you should have done differently. You were only a kid yourself.

I don't think it's without value, though, when someone who hasn't been through it points out that this is, in fact, an extreme experience and that the lessons you say you took away from it might be equally extreme and could bear some more reflection.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, August 24, 2009 9:37 PM

Maybe. Like I said, I could be wrong.

But it seems to me, that the folks who proclaim that "violence only begets violence".... have never been punched in the face. And, maybe, they should be.

The appropriate use of violence, in defense of ones self or others, is NEVER wrong.

BYTEMITE

Monday, August 24, 2009 9:40 PM

I'm not Mormon myself, so I really can't tell what it's about. All I know is that in Utah, I've seen Mormons having a lot of compassion, but they're not picked on by the baptists or evangelicals, so they're pretty sheltered here.

AGENTROUKA

Monday, August 24, 2009 9:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Maybe. Like I said, I could be wrong.

But it seems to me, that the folks who proclaim that "violence only begets violence".... have never been punched in the face. And, maybe, they should be.

The appropriate use of violence, in defense of ones self or others, is NEVER wrong.

I am NOT saying that you can't defend yourself.

Did I say that? Did any one say that?

What I said was that the violent environment you grew up in made it natural for you to respond to that "soft" bully with a degree of violence that might have been disproportionate. (I obviously don't know for sure.) Your former environment perpetuated itself through you. Violence begetting violence quite very obviously.

The way you told the story made it seem like you see absolutely no disproportion in your reaction to that boy. That you're still proud of chipping his teeth and cracking his neck. Even now, when time and - one should hope - distance to that environment could have led you to reevaluate that reaction.

That is what I meant. Not that you have no right to defend yourself against violence.

So don't tell me that I should get punched in the face, thank you.

ETA: Argh, I don't know why I am harping on about this. I did take offense to the "punch" comment, but I'm actually not looking to turn this into a huge tangential discussion. Sorry about that.

DREAMTROVE

Monday, August 24, 2009 9:51 PM

Quote:

While fighting, one pulled out a boxcutter. She cut the other from her temple down to her chin. Her flesh peeled from her face, and hung there swinging.

Something similar happened to me. It's the sort of thing that makes you scoff at people who "oh no, I can't stand the pain, Eek!" and the whole euthanasia crowd. Who was it who wrote the poem in which I think it's a squirrel says to a hunter "can't you see I'm doing everything I can to stay *in* my mysery?"

My pain record is pretty high, I suspect Frem's takes the cake on this one. Having your face ripped off is painfull, ditto for knees, teeth, and guts, been through a lot, I might make 2nd place. I do know a guy who was shot in the head twice in Iraq though, once was actually a bomb. Ow.

Frem,

See something you like?

WULFENSTAR

Monday, August 24, 2009 10:01 PM

Agent, I didnt mean it like that.

Violence might beget violence... but that is not necessarily a BAD thing.

Someone tries to hurt me or mine, I will fuck their shit up. No doubt, no question.

Someone who lived behind the golden gates? In the happy world of the "normals"? (90210 springs to mind for some reason)

Their family and friends are prey.

ETA: My point is that people, normal people, NEED to see that bad things can happen. They need to "man up", learn to fight... something!

Its not ok to just walk through life, whistleing a happy tune, and think that nothing could ever happen. You MUST be ready. Because if the worst happens, I dont want you guys to be unprepared.

I've seen good people, INNOCENT people, hurt... far and away when I couldn't do anything for them. And part of it was that they WERE innocent. They ignored/missed/didn't believe that horror could visit them.

HKCAVALIER

Monday, August 24, 2009 10:27 PM

In before Frem comes with the verbal smack down.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Maybe. Like I said, I could be wrong.

But it seems to me, that the folks who proclaim that "violence only begets violence".... have never been punched in the face. And, maybe, they should be.

The appropriate use of violence, in defense of ones self or others, is NEVER wrong.

But Wulf, our own buddy Frem has told you as much in every thread you've argued the contrary, you hand him a shamefaced "Yes, teacher" reply and then here you are again, saying that if we all knew violence like you've known we'd all be as bloodthirsty as you. So is Frem right, or do you just like to b.s. your allies? I've seen you do this too many times now. You nod and say you "respect" Frem's insights and then when Frem ain't lookin' you pick another poster (always female, btw) to bully with how you have no choice and yet are not a victim.

I'm sorry you had a shitty therapist. It's a very common experience of chronic abuse survivors. I was wildly lucky to only have 2 therapists in my life and both were extraordinary men. You might look into the concept of "introjection." It's been a major issue for me in life. It's hard, when you've seen as much violence as you have to really get out of it, even when people try to help. I know it was excruciatingly hard for me. Took me years of "wasted" therapy before I understood what it meant to really trust another living human being.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

WULFENSTAR

Monday, August 24, 2009 10:33 PM

Lol

Wow.

"You hand him a shamefaced "Yes, teacher" reply"

Ok... this is obviously an attempt to get under my skin. Sorry HK, Im not biting today.

AND while I do respect Frems opinions, I think even he will admit he doenst know everything....

In any case.... not going to freak out today. Sorry.

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:07 AM

Wulf,

HK doesn't play whackamole, so you can't dodge this bullet, but I'm also going to beat Frem to the smackdown on this one. There's some folk on the forum who've been through a Rambo level of hell, and so if you want to lay down your cards, we can talk, but if you're just going to play the victim card, I don't think anyone is interest.

So, you think you had it rough? Fire away, but don't hide behind some mask claiming you had it rougher than the rest of us, cause that ain't gonna fly too well. I've seen a picture of you, and last I checked you were all in one piece, happily married. Childhood trauma? Yeah, I believe in it. A friend of mine was locked in a room for 10 years, dinner slid under the door. Three friend who were used as slave labor until they were 18, I know ten more. I know some people who didn't come through their childhood in one piece, and way to many who didn't come through it at all. I know some people who've been through the war, and then the next one, I have friends who spent their childhood in an actual war, people who raised their families by themselves. So yeah, I have seen my share, more than my share, and I have no shortage of scars to show for it. And, yeah, I know you were beat up by some G's, who wasn't? You think that was the worst thing to ever happen. Emotional scars, check this one out, my best friend killed himself on my 16th birthday. Sweet, huh? That's one, I got 100 more. You want to play the victim card, go ahead. But don't assume that the non-violent among us haven't seen their share, and then some.

HKCAVALIER

Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:09 AM

Not looking for you to freakout, Wulf, maybe just sober up. I'm tired of you bullying people on the grounds that they haven't been in a knife fight. I'm tired of you invalidating the opinions of other posters because you think your suffering makes you superior. I'm tired of you changing your tune depending on how vulnerable the other person is.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:34 AM

My point was not to play the victim card, just to show that this kind of stuff is out there. Its there, no matter what you see on t.v. Or what propaganda you hear.

And to warn you that you can't just wish it away. You have to be ready for it. You have to look for it.

I hope that is clearer.

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, August 25, 2009 2:08 AM

Wulf

Hope you got my point.

For the record, I never had a TV. I didn't go to school, most people know that. I'm a rural farmer. But I travel a lot, and sometimes I find myself in a war zone, even a target. I've had to flee fascist militias in a war zone by hook or by crook, and I voluntarily put myself in these situations, and will again in the not too distant future. And I'm the first to admit, I'm a rank amateur. That's why I listen to people on the board with more experience and knowledge then myself. That information may save my life. What I care to believe is irrelevant.

I've known gangstas, friend and foe, and had friends mowed down by them. Fucking dumb ass way to go. These are people whose world is so small that they think they control 153rd street or whatever. Not just who cares, but no they don't, they're all pawns.

A friend is coming to visit me tomorrow. He was in the yugoslav war. Lost a battle there, 15,000 men women and children were slaughtered. I know people like that. I know a guy who buried his village, the neighboring villages, and almost his entire race. Ever meet anyone from Rwanda, and sit down and talk to them about what went on there?

You don't see me acting tough here, because I'm not tough. I'm not the one who had to walk through the fire, scars aside. I wasn't there digging mass graves for 10,000 people a day.

So yeah, It's out there, and if you're lucky, more than you will ever know. Last time I was out there, I spent 9 hours with a loaded machine gun pointed at my head, and a guy who spoke no English at all with his finger on the trigger. 9 hours to convince him not to kill me. I really need to learn me some more languages.

But I do have a good idea of what's out there. It's a sad commentary on our world view that the statistically most likely reason to have a gun to your head in this country is that the hand holding that weapon is your own.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, August 25, 2009 3:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:

The greatest lesson I learned from my years in Kung Fu school was that the more I learned, the less likely I was to need violence to solve my problems.
My Kung Fu training was like a major boost to my immune system against violence.

HK, were we friends, in another life, back in China in the Shaolin Temple?

The laughing Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, August 25, 2009 3:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Last time I was out there, I spent 9 hours with a loaded machine gun pointed at my head, and a guy who spoke no English at all with his finger on the trigger. 9 hours to convince him not to kill me.

Really? I mean, seriously?

The laughing Chrisisall

DREAMTROVE

Tuesday, August 25, 2009 4:09 AM

Yeah, Chris, really. And there's a long list of stories I don't tell...

But it's true. The things that people i've worked with have seen are so bone chilling that nothing I've been through can compare, exceptin' maybe being ripped in half. But hell, Frem's war story list is far longer i'm sure. Under that cute tough guy facade is a fuzzy lil kitten, and under that fuzzy little kitten is a history so harsh that is really trying not to laugh at the rest of us so hard it ain't funny.

One of the guys in Yugoslavia, Alesh, told me that he burried his comrades by the truckload.. literally. You had to dig a huge ditch and scoop the bodies in because you had to be ready for son of bitch slobodan milosevic on the next round.

I know guys who fought on all sides of that one, who can sit down at a table and talk out their differences, and not say "you motherfuckers killed my family" and that's very real. Imagine the situation. No whining, no mulling over their poor tortured past, just sitting down with their unresolved conflicts. All water, blood, under the bridge.

This is religion, at it's finest, armed by you know who, financed by you know who, and they picked the most gullible angry young men they could and got them all fired up to fight the big bad. The christian militias and mujahideen, call 'em al qaeda if you want, it's fair, but there wasn't a dime's difference between them.

So, sure, some gangster mowed down a friend of mine a while back, I posted it. But I still hold that's a fucking dumb way to go.

So you want to know why I get into it on the 2a sometimes? These guys are committing suicide. America is full of guns, I posted when that crackhead shot at me in chicago back in 07. This is America's war: Over nothing. The above mentioned guy went to challenge some drug dealer who had shorted him on a deal. Really? You're going to die because someone ripped you off and didn't give you enough self destructive substance, hell you were committing suicide by making the purchase in the first place.

Wanna know what I see? A bunch of suckers who are being talked into the same idea.

People talk as if the big bad is coming. Oh, give me a break. You want to meet the big bad? I can draw you a map.

IMHO? The best defense when it all comes down: Don't be there. Be somewhere it ain't happening, because really, it doesn't matter if you get the bear or the bear gets you, you're going to be digging that massive trench to bury your own.

Okay, maybe that wasn't a coherent argument, but you get the idea. I just try not to take people and bop them over the head and say they need a reality check, but when someone decides to pick me up and bop me over the head and tell me I need a reality check, I'm going to let 'em have it, which I don't do very often.

Wulf,

Reality check. I don't know your story, but I suggest you stop ruminating on it and move on. I was just talking to my neighbor, he fought in three wars by the time he was 20, just as a guy on the ground, with a gun, real wars. Doesn't bug him either. He doesn't really think about it much. He's pretty happy to be in America right now, where things are relatively peaceful.

None of these people I talk about will even mention this stuff in casual conversation, if you don't ask them about it, you'd never know. They're all pretty calm folk, focused on the future. They can't do anything about the past. They grew up and moved on.

Want to deal with real problems? Look at what's ahead: I met a Tutsi girl, she said when the militia came to her village, she fled into the forest, she ran for three days straight. When things calmed down, she went back to her village. Everyone was dead. That's the past. Fast forward to today. The same militias are now cutting down the forest, extincting millions of species so they can pay back the international loans they took out to get all the weapons to slaughter 8.1 million people including 7.7 million Tutsis, and also, to make sure that in the future there is nowhere for anyone to hide.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Tuesday, August 25, 2009 5:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Do individuals/citizens of America, have the right to defend themselves by any means necessary?

Yep.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, August 25, 2009 5:11 PM

Sorry bout that, finding a fellow blackheart, much less one alive and functional kinda set off a mental meltdown.

Beyond the essentials, I am no more willing to discuss it in detail than I am my personal theology, but generally the process is thus.

Person is born with a certain set of predispositions and innate traits which combine to direct their development in a certain direction regardless of environment or stimulus.

Something during puberty triggers the complex causing a cascade failure of assumptions and radical personality evolution.

And soon thereafter, they die.

Suicide tends to claim those that violence doesn't, through a combination of what-have-I-done and realizing they will never truly be welcomed or even accepted by the society they live in - the rare few that do survive, almost without exception wind up reclusive and misanthropic.

Thirty years of research, and what we know wouldn't fill a thimble, but this much is true - the reason so many are lost to violence is cause the ONLY way to stop a Blackheart is to kill them, and that takes a measure of doing.

What set me to the meltdown though, is just how few of that amazingly tiny minority make the choice to even try to be decent and humane, most wind up like Carl Panzram, waging an all out war against a society that created, then rejected them.

I've never, not till now, met a single other that chose that route, and to even know another HAS, is a priceless gift in light of watching the few others with so much potential destroy almost inevitably destroy themselves.

As for the rest of it...

One realization I came to a bit late to do me any real good is that violence harms the person committing it as well as the one receiving it - a hammer is real good at pounding nails, but if you look close, the hammer takes damage too, although less of it.

And everyones horror is personal, it shouldn't never EVER be a pissing contest cause frankly I would rather others have never experienced it in the first place, denigriating them for not doing so is one of the basest insults to our very humanity one can commit - one reason I am sparing of details concerning some things is that there really are things in this world just the KNOWING of can hurt you, chase you screaming down the corridors of your own consciousness in the darkest hours of the night when you're all alone, the world goes quiet and all you can hear are the echos of the screams...

To wish that on someone, force it upon them, or even mock them for not suffering it is a vile act, unworthy of anything but the deepest scorn.

And far as guns go...

It's an object, a thing, a tool - sure, used right and well it can protect you, but it can't watch your back, carry your wounded ass to cover, reload for you - the object, the thing, isn't the force that matters, YOU are, and that between your ears, besides which, people are the best force multipliers there are, even ones some may cast scorn against for not being comfortable with violence.

Hell, my loader* was something of an abject pacifist, for which he took no END of shit, and wound up stuck on me in hopes I would either choke it out of him or my nihilistic insanity would rub off, which was wasted effort cause they didn't even know what the actual cause of it was to begin with.

So WHAT if he was unwilling to fight, he could keep the ammo comin, carried his share of it, and could dig a hasty with great alacrity - in fact, as I began to recover from what was making me crazy I started using his good sense as a brake on my own brazen rage (you'll note I don't use the word courage, cause it ain't no such damn thing) and much to the surprise and ire of command, never said a word against him.

If I got a choice between a weapon and an ally, I'll pick the ally - more useful, and an ally WITH a weapon, hooboy, that's like a second gun that wields itself, innit ?

Think beyond the tool, lest you be considered one.

-Frem

*Note: I carried a full size, crew served M-60A1 with a friggin AA barrel on it, a regular mon

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, August 25, 2009 6:14 PM

DT:

I see your through the mirror of time pic and raise you one of my own, furry kitten reference included.

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, August 25, 2009 6:24 PM

[Conan's Father: The secret of steel has always carried with it a mystery. You must learn its riddle, Conan. You must learn its discipline. For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men, not women, not beasts.
[Points to sword]
Conan's Father: THIS you can trust.]

Yeah, I learned right and wrong from movies, T.V. and comic books. Sue me.

ANTHONYT

Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:40 PM

Hello,

Wasn't the riddle of steel that the strength was all in the hand that wields it?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, August 26, 2009 1:54 AM

*stares right at Wulfie*
"For who is your father if it is not me?"

He was right though, flesh *is* stronger than steel, because steel, having no will of it's own, is merely a tool.

For all that Conan venerated steel, it wasn't steel that saved his ass, it was his friends, first the old wizard Akiro, and then (even after her death) Valeria.

And yet, human will, the drive of the human spirit, is stronger than flesh OR steel, and there is no power even in the spiritual realm stronger or more unassailable than Mercy.

Conan learns this - slaughtering Dooms followers would accomplish NOTHING, but freeing them...

You can kill a man, you can break a weapon, but you can't take away a good deed, a persons love, or knowledge and mercy freely given.

-F

DREAMTROVE

Wednesday, August 26, 2009 2:42 AM

What? Did the IQ Faerie just boost this forum 100 points? Maybe some moron vacuum took a vacation and we suddenly woke up ;)

Frem,

Ack. I don't know how much to respond to here. I have more answers here, I can give you some of these, that I know, and tell you what I don't.

The description you give could describe myself very very well, and yet in many ways I came out very different, in many other ways very similar.

Country mouse/city mouse? I wouldn't underestimate the impact this has on the differences in result. I travel a lot also, and frequently have my assumptions challenged. I expect that to happen more in the future.

I think I better write an email on this one