Personal responsibility is not political action. Dumpster diving wouldn't have stopped Hitler.

POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Friday, August 21, 2009 16:52
VIEWED: 9211
PAGE 2 of 2

FIRST PAGE PREV PAGE 1 2

AG05

Friday, July 31, 2009 2:58 PM

No, it won't. At least, not because of anything you did.

The best you can hope for is that other people come to the same conclusion about personal improvement as you.

Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

KWICKO

Friday, July 31, 2009 3:05 PM

I really wish someone would tell that to the "pro-life" crowd... let 'em know that they can never hope to accomplish anything, and they should give it up already.

SIGNYM

Friday, July 31, 2009 3:44 PM

Yes, but... you need to be more than an individual doing private things.

I recall the beginnings of the enviromental movement. I read Silent Spring in its first publication, and that changed a lot of minds. Then there was "The Fox", an individual activist in the Chicago area who- in the dead of night- would take dated/ timed pictures of smokestacks "midnight dumping" and send it to prosecutors, or bung outfalls or cap smokestacks. People admired his derring-do. He focused attention.

The civil rights and antiwar movements had protests and rallies.

The antiabortion movement used its base of churches and preachers to elect sympathetic politicians, and rallies and protests outside of clinics.

Lets look at PETA. At first they were widely derided. "Animal rights"?? But they "got the word out" by throwing fake blood on fur coats and freeing experimental subjects. While that got them more ridicule from some quarters, it also advanced the cause of eliminating- or at least modifying- factory-farming.

You have to spread the word and get a LOT of people doing the same thing at the same time at different levels focused on one goal, or a group of closely aligned goals:

Freedom now
Equal rights
End the war
Stop polluting

If you (collectively) pick a goal you can measure your progress towards it. Once you achieve that goal, pick another. RIGHT NOW, DURING CONGRESSIONAL RECESS, WE HAVE ONE MONTH TO PUSH FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE. IF WE PUSH FOR SINGLE-PAYER, WE MIGHT GET SOMETHING REASONABLE. IF YOU DO NOTHING ELSE THIS MONTH, WRITE OR CALL YOUR REPRESENTATIVES... OR ATTEND A TOWN HALL MEETING. FOCUS PRESSURE ON THE BLUE-DOG DEMS.

FWIW- I seldom give money to charities. When I DO give money, its to organizations which help people recognize, talk about, and fight for their rights: Girl-Child Network, Three Cups of Tea, Amnesty International, Free Software Foundation, Link TV, public radio and TV stations in my area etc.

AG05

Friday, July 31, 2009 5:00 PM

The success you speak of is marginal at best. The enviro-hippies can't really do shit about polluters in Mexico, China or elsewhere, so they go after my truck 'cause it's a convenient enemy.

Last I read, we still go to war and abortion is still legal. PETA throws blood on fur coats 'cause if they went after the guys who acutally killed the mink, they'd get shot.

The Civil rights movement was successful after 140 years, just don't tell that to the professional Angry Minority Leaders.

Change for the better, be it personal or societal, is unlikely, marginal, painful, and incredibly slow. Be it global famine or your credit score, good things don't happen overnight. Bad things, on the other hand, do. Often.

Finally, on a semi-related note:

Quote:
You have to spread the word and get a LOT of people doing the same thing at the same time at different levels focused on one goal, or a group of closely aligned goals

Get some guns, too. History has shown that guns speed up the process. 'Course, destructive acts may get headlines, but they sure to piss folks off. and sometimes those folks have guns, too.

Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

WULFENSTAR

Friday, July 31, 2009 5:29 PM

"The Civil rights movement was successful after 140 years"

Was it, really?

AG05

Friday, July 31, 2009 5:32 PM

Last time I looked at the President, yeah.

Actually, you raise a good point. The Civil Rights Movement changed a lot of policy, but was less successful at changing minds.

Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

WULFENSTAR

Friday, July 31, 2009 5:39 PM

Changing minds? Good luck.

You have to start with changing behaviors first.

Ive made this statement before, and I know its not one people like to hear...

But, most sterotypes have a basis in truth.

You want to have people stop "stereotyping"? Then stop the behavior that creates the stereotype.

But, that would mean that entire cultures would have to change.

Good luck with that also.

SIGNYM

Friday, July 31, 2009 5:54 PM

The civil rights movement has made a lot of positive changes. Jim Crow is no longer the law of the land, is it? I look at my daughter, and since she grew up with black, brown, yellow and white children she is reflexively less prejudiced than I am. I'm amazed, sometimes, when I compare my instantaneous responses to hers and am grateful that she doesn't share them.

But, no... things are not always moving in a positive direction. IMHO our biggest failure worldwide is failure to control population growth, which will be a stressor in our future no matter how egalitarian and compassionate we might become. The other failure is the failure to understand that capitalism and religions are cancers which eventually kill their hosts. But we can still make progress, no?

KWICKO

Friday, July 31, 2009 7:31 PM

Quote:

Yes, but... you need to be more than an individual doing private things.

I recall the beginnings of the enviromental movement. I read Silent Spring in its first publication, and that changed a lot of minds. Then there was "The Fox", an individual activist in the Chicago area who- in the dead of night- would take dated/ timed pictures of smokestacks "midnight dumping" and send it to prosecutors, or bung outfalls or cap smokestacks. People admired his derring-do. He focused attention.

See? "The Fox" WAS an "individual doing private things".

Did he make a difference? Did he inspire anyone? Apparently so, if they admired his derring-do and he focused their attention!

Basically we have two sides on this argument:

1) Nothing you do matters.

2) All that matters is what you do.

The point I'm making is that BOTH of those can be right, and by doing your little bit of "nothing", you won't "change the world", but you can certainly change your little part of it. Remember the adage, "All politics is local"?

Or, let me try looking at it from the other side: Nothing I can do matters. Okay, cool. I'll play along with that. I'll ditch my 42mpg Honda that I've kept out of the landfill for 20 years now, and I'll go pick up a Hummer H2. I'll stop recycling, I could give a flying fuck what happens to the used motor oil I dump down the storm drains. After all, it doesn't matter, because it's just ME, right? And surely *I* can't have a negative impact on the world, eh? I mean, if I can't have a positive impact, surely I can't have a negative impact either. Right?

What you can do to improve things is what YOU can do. Telling someone not to bother, not to waste their time, is rather an unproductive tactic, I would think.

SIGNYM

Friday, July 31, 2009 8:15 PM

What The Fox did was very, very public.

And not saying "not to do" whatever you do in private. My hubby laughs at me, but by gum I'm gonna continue to buy toilet paper made from post-consumer-recycled-paper, and buy completely biodegradeable laundry and dish detergents, www.seventhgeneration.com, turn out lights and turn off the AC, manage our water use, drive my 35 mpg car, recycle my trash, live sa simply as my family will allow(!), and work at my job (which, despite governmental problems does manage to do more good than harm). And I will continue to vote my long-term interests, and writing to my representatives in government.

BUT.

I'm not under any illusions that's going to change the world. It needs much much more than that.

At the very minimum, you should be donating to organizations that you think are fighting effectively on your behalf.

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, July 31, 2009 9:28 PM

Point of fact: in the whole wide universe, our entire WORLD is just a pathetic little speck of muddy water in some back corner somewhere.

And as such, in truth it's ONLY the little things that really matter, since all the big things are built OUT of the little things.

Enough little things, and the aspirations will build themselves - I didn't have any great grand plan when I decided to drive a car through the fence and set upon Crosscreek with a tire iron and a pocket torch...

But one pebble can start an avalanche, sure.

Every nice, decent, noble thing you DO, especially if it touches someone else in a positive way, inspires them, or even makes them think for a moment, is worth it - even if your methods or intentions are a little less than perfect, and heaven knows mine were - advances the human cause by just that much, even if no one witnesses it, even if no one cares...

Even if some people hate you for it, or mock and scorn you, it still pushes the flag just that much further forward.

And take it from me, be *happy* shoving it forward the little bit you can, and encouraging others to do the same, for taking up that banner and charging it forward into the oppositions lines carries with it a price so high just explaining it can be traumatic, as well as the risk of losing ground besides.

Trust me on this, take the sure thing, one inch at a time, inexorable and inevitable, it's every bit as useful, as valuable, and carries with it joy and happiness, within and without, instead of a burden of pain and suffering to haunt you the rest of your days.

All that one can do is all that one can do, to agonize over not doing more is pointless, and a self-inflicted misery one can do better without, and comin from me that ain't hypocrisy so much as a lesson learned far too late to do ME any bloody good, but learned well enough all the same.

Every tiny kindness, every act of mercy and humanity, is in and of itself a far more potent, powerful and lasting action than any evil this world has yet conceived, or that it ever will.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

RUE

Friday, July 31, 2009 9:51 PM

"Point of fact: in the whole wide universe, our entire WORLD is just a pathetic little speck of muddy water in some back corner somewhere."

But so far as we know, whatever we do will never be undone. Time will never go backwards. History will never be recanted. While what we do in scope will never amount to anything, while ultimately the sun will blow up and erase all our mistakes and advances, nothing will take away what was decided, what was done, and why. In a way, we are immortal.

"But one pebble can start an avalanche, sure."

But then, it's the avalanche that counts. It moves things in big ways. A pebble that rolls down the hill all by itself - is just a pebble.

Whether you specifically acknowledge it or not - you too are looking to do BIG things that change the world in BIG ways. I don't think you would be happy at the end of your life to look back and find you'd been rattling down a hill all by yourself, with nothing else to show for it but some small, personal satisfaction.

"Every tiny kindness, every act of mercy and humanity, is in and of itself a far more potent, powerful and lasting action than any evil this world has yet conceived, or that it ever will."

I don't think starving people, people living in squalor as so many are, would trade an act of kindness for economic security.

The other side has far bigger carrots and sticks.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

AG05

Friday, July 31, 2009 9:54 PM

Quote:
Or, let me try looking at it from the other side: Nothing I can do matters. Okay, cool. I'll play along with that. I'll ditch my 42mpg Honda that I've kept out of the landfill for 20 years now, and I'll go pick up a Hummer H2. I'll stop recycling, I could give a flying fuck what happens to the used motor oil I dump down the storm drains. After all, it doesn't matter, because it's just ME, right? And surely *I* can't have a negative impact on the world, eh? I mean, if I can't have a positive impact, surely I can't have a negative impact either. Right?

Pretty much. The polar ice caps ain't gonna melt any faster if you buy an H2, nor will the melt any slower if you buy a Prius. But you are right in one regard. Small, local change is possible. Not dumping your oil into the creek might not bring the salmon back to the Columbia River, but it will prevent your creek from getting all fucked up.

Quote:
What you can do to improve things is what YOU can do. Telling someone not to bother, not to waste their time, is rather an unproductive tactic, I would think.

Your're right, and I'm sorry if I sounded like I said don't bother. All I'm saying is have reasonable expectations, and be aware of the fact that good things don't happen overnight. I have many friends who got an idealistic hair up their ass, set out to change the world, got the shit kicked out of them by reality, got frustrated and gave up.

Also, be aware that your change is just that: YOUR change. Others will disagree with you, with your actions and you motives. They will disagree more forcefully if you try to dictate their actions, no matter how right you may think you are.

In other words, buy a Prius, and wipe your ass with organic recycled treebark-infused paper. I'm cool with that. But leave my 4x4 and my Charmin Ultra alone. Dammit

Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

RUE

Friday, July 31, 2009 10:57 PM

"In other words, buy a Prius, and wipe your ass with organic recycled treebark-infused paper. I'm cool with that. But leave my 4x4 and my Charmin Ultra alone. Dammit"

Of course, depending on how old you are you may live to see the day when you simply don't have enough $$ to buy enough gas for your guzzler b/c gas is so expensive, to pay for electricity to air condition and heat your place, to go anywhere nicer than your own effed up locale.

That would be poetic justice if it didn't happen to the rest of us as well.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

RUE

Friday, July 31, 2009 11:08 PM

"But, most sterotypes have a basis in truth."

Have you ever considered that we consider YOU a stereotype ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

CUDA77

Friday, July 31, 2009 11:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"But, most sterotypes have a basis in truth."

Have you ever considered that we consider YOU a stereotype ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

And not just any stereotype but the stereotype of a racist?

RUE

Friday, July 31, 2009 11:31 PM

Why would you ask ? Is that the first thing that comes to your mind ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

AG05

Friday, July 31, 2009 11:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"In other words, buy a Prius, and wipe your ass with organic recycled treebark-infused paper. I'm cool with that. But leave my 4x4 and my Charmin Ultra alone. Dammit"

Of course, depending on how old you are you may live to see the day when you simply don't have enough $$ to buy enough gas for your guzzler b/c gas is so expensive, to pay for electricity to air condition and heat your place, to go anywhere nicer than your own effed up locale.

That would be poetic justice if it didn't happen to the rest of us as well.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

When I can't afford the gas (or when a fuel-efficient full-size 4X4 pickup is created) I'll buy one. Until then, I put greater emphasis on my ability to get from my home to my job than on the current sea level fluctuations.

It's gonna happen to you anyway, regardless of what I drive. And regardless of what you drive. The difference is that you can rationalize that it's not your fault.

Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

RUE

Friday, July 31, 2009 11:37 PM

"The difference is that you can rationalize that it's not your fault."

I think you got this exactly wrong: I actually believe it is my fault, along with a whole bunch of USers, Chinese and the roughly 6 billion other people on the planet.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 1, 2009 12:19 AM

Yes, ultimately its our fault. But not individually. (Except for the population increase, which only happens individually.)

Let me give an example: I try to use water wisely. But even if everyone in CA did what I do, it would only reduce water consumption by roughly 15%. Farmers would still be irrigating their fields. Businesses would still be using water too.

Let's say that indivudal farmers decide to reduce water useage. Better, but other businesses would STILL be using water.

So let's assume that in an attack of guilty conscience, even businesses start being water-wise.

That still doesn't make up for the fact that roughly 15-20% of potable water in CA is lost to leaks in aqueducts and pipes. It doesn't do anything to promote water recycling. Nor does it do anything about land-use planning.

Private, individual actions DO HELP. But they're not the entire solution. At some point, you need organized, collective action.

KWICKO

Saturday, August 1, 2009 1:15 AM

Quote:

Private, individual actions DO HELP. But they're not the entire solution. At some point, you need organized, collective action.

Then it might be a more productive option to not tell people they aren't making a difference, but rather to tell people they ARE making a difference, but COULD BE making an even BIGGER difference if they were to band together and act collectively.

Sorry, but I'm just not a fan of trying to get people on your side by telling them that they are essentially useless.

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, August 1, 2009 7:34 AM

Ok, I can see being subtle ain't gonna work.

Look, here's the deal - we're talkin about a day and age where even TALKIN about this kinda thing directly can get you arrested, or worse, right ?

In light of that, HOW FAR are you, personally, willing to take it ?

What bid are you, personally, willing to lay on the table ?

Your comfort ?
Your freedom ?
Your life ?

The life and freedom of everyone you care about who'll be scored as a collateral, conspirator or suspect if you fall ?

It's one thing to stand there right up front with your own ass on the line exhorting folk to stand and deliver - and a very different thing to sit behind a PC screen while doing your little share inside your comfort zone and ask folk to risk their bloody necks for your ideals, or even their own, for that matter - they just flat won't do it, and to be annoyed or judgemental about it is an insult.

The reason I get that kinda do-or-die loyalty from my people, is cause I put my ass, and often enough my knuckles, where my mouth was at great personal risk to life, freedom and safety - and most of that back in a time where I didn't place very much, if any, value on any of the above.

So don't expect rousing speeches from the comfort of one's home to have any more impact than some politician with a thousand dollar suit exhorting some minimum wage slaver to vote his own taxes higher cause the poor politicans are "broke", right ?

And don't even get me started on what a joke voting as a collective action is, given that it's more or less a fucking game of three card monte - do you know what HAPPENED the last time "We the People" didn't pick either of the elite's pre-approved candidates ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_L._Berger
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9B03E4D9153EE433A25752C
1A9679C946195D6CF

They refused to seat him - TWICE, fuck the rules, fuck the people, fuck democracy, the shell game exposed for what it truly is, and the only damned difference is that they're slicker about it now.

The ONLY way we're gonna get out from under the thumb of these bastards is to STOP PLAYIN BY THEIR RULES - rules which they break the instant those rules become inconvenient for them, mind you...

And should that start to happen, then it'll get ugly, REAL ugly, and people will get dead, and all too many of em will be ours - and even at that point, it could go either way, cause belief and will and all the noble intentions in the world have this way of kinda evaporating when the blood begins to spill, and it WILL - there's too many folk, even many of us peons who know how the game works, like Hero, playin ball cause it benefits THEM at our expense.

And you're gonna have to deal with THEM, too.
Do you really think the powers that be and their collaborators are just gonna roll over so easily ?

So unless you got the cojones to spill and swim the river of blood it'd take to make that radical change, stick with doin what you can do, allright ?

We've thought that through longer and harder than anyone - and every single scenario where such a radical re-adjustment happens it results in a collapse of the infrastructure and 22,000,000+ casualties - every single one.

You got a better solution, I'd damn sure like to hear it.

-F

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 1, 2009 4:27 PM

Quote:
Then it might be a more productive option to not tell people they aren't making a difference, but rather to tell people they ARE making a difference, but COULD BE making an even BIGGER difference if they were to band together and act collectively. Sorry, but I'm just not a fan of trying to get people on your side by telling them that they are essentially useless.

Erm... OK. I get your point. I hereby revise my message: Recycle your trash AND kick some ass!

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 1, 2009 4:34 PM

Quote:
The life and freedom of everyone you care about who'll be scored as a collateral, conspirator or suspect if you fall ?

My life? No. Because I have a daughter who will depend on me as long as I live...

Quote:
It's one thing to stand there right up front with your own ass on the line exhorting folk to stand and deliver - and a very different thing to sit behind a PC screen while doing your little share inside your comfort zone and ask folk to risk their bloody necks for your ideals, or even their own, for that matter - they just flat won't do it, and to be annoyed or judgemental about it is an insult.

True enough, but... aside from either standing on the firing line or quietly rinsing out your glass bottles for recycling are a whole host of options: writing to the editor, donating to a cause, running for City Council, manning phone banks, working with your political party etc etc etc.

Successful movements employ ALL of those options, Frem. Its not an all-or-nothing deal. Like you said, you'd rather have 20,000 willing to take one step than 20 willing to go the distance. People do as they can, as long as they involve themselves OUTSIDE of the home.

ANTHONYT

Saturday, August 1, 2009 4:41 PM

Hello,

It has occurred to me that personal responsibility may indeed have stopped Hitler.

It is hard to mobilize a populace under the premise that all of their problems are someone else's fault if they all take personal responsibility for all of their own problems.

A population of people with a sense of personal responsibility also would seem to me less likely to tolerate a tyrant. They would not see such an overbearing maniac as someone else's problem. They would all see it as their personal problem.

So... I respectfully disagree with the premise. People who take responsibility as individuals will tend to act collectively out of the same sense of responsibility.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, August 1, 2009 9:57 PM

Quote:
Successful movements employ ALL of those options, Frem. Its not an all-or-nothing deal. Like you said, you'd rather have 20,000 willing to take one step than 20 willing to go the distance. People do as they can, as long as they involve themselves OUTSIDE of the home.

Oh yes - sorry if I came on a little harsh, I just...

Really needed to point out the consequences of going full bore on something like this instead of one step at a time, to add that perspective, cause it haunts me it does, that something like that COULD happen, under certain circumstances, you see ?

I happen to be a rather firm advocate of running for city council, ironically my former township *DID* get the road paved for that bid, and happens to be doin pretty damn good financially, although the idea of me moving back there fills them with horror, meh heh heh.

Honestly though, as I said, I'll take the one step, and encouraging others to do so - I think the better part of human nature makes that an inevitable victory.

-F

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, August 1, 2009 10:05 PM

Also: as a hard, cold second thought, there ARE times when playing nicely buys ya nothing.

Case in point, since we're speakin of the third reich here and there; The White Rose Society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose

They meant well, tried real hard, and in the end accomplished NOTHING - because in order to bend policy, you have to bend the policy MAKERS, not those laboring under it.

Don't make that mistake yourselves - when it comes to law and policy, your target should be those who make it, one way or another.

Until we can dispense with politicians altogether, having one in your pocket is damn strong hole card, and having a PAC is another.
http://www.protect.org

-F

MAGONSDAUGHTER

Monday, August 3, 2009 5:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Also: as a hard, cold second thought, there ARE times when playing nicely buys ya nothing.

Case in point, since we're speakin of the third reich here and there; The White Rose Society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose

They meant well, tried real hard, and in the end accomplished NOTHING - because in order to bend policy, you have to bend the policy MAKERS, not those laboring under it.

-F

That's harsh about the White Rose, especially as they were really only children who were executed for simply protesting against the Third Reich. I don't think you can say they accomplish nothing,who knows how many activists they inspired. The battle against injustice takes many forms, and all of them serve a use. People who speak out, who protest, who use civil disobedience as a tool have made huge changes in the world, along side those who have taken up arms and fought. The Pen is Mightier than the Sword etc. You must inspire change to make it happen.

The OP posts an interesting article, but something about it seems defeatist. All change starts with personal responsibility, but I agree than environmentally what the individual does is not enough. Policies need to change, or implemented so that finite resources are not squandered. Personal or business choice can no longer include the option to pollute or waste.

I notice that being enviro-friendly is now a status symbol here, another feather in the hat for a consumer industry. Now you can gage people's wealth by whether they are energy and water self sufficient and the eco-friendliness of the car, while the poor still chugg around in petrol guzzlers and live in energy draining houses. Until this sort of technology is cheaply available for everyone, its just another badge the richies wear.

FREMDFIRMA

Monday, August 3, 2009 7:09 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER

The fact that they failed makes em no less heros in my book, they left a legacy and a lesson behind for the rest of us that we'd do well to heed - most of what they wrote can be applied nearly word for word to our current establishment here in the states, and that is a very chilling thought.

But sad that it is, sometimes the bad guys win - we root for Malcom Reynolds, but in truth the browncoats had their ass handed to em - and yet Mal finds every way possible to not bend knee to those purplebelly bastards, so it's never REALLY over till the last human being with an ounce of grit left in em kicks off the mortal coil.

Quote:
Now you can gage people's wealth by whether they are energy and water self sufficient and the eco-friendliness of the car, while the poor still chugg around in petrol guzzlers and live in energy draining houses. Until this sort of technology is cheaply available for everyone, its just another badge the richies wear.

All too bloody true, that - I myself would like a more efficient car, but damned if imma pay 30-40K for one, that's just insane.

On the other hand, I cheat - although getting a bit too old and beat up to ride the beastie, my main in-town transportation is a hand built Tomos-Pryer moped that gets between 80-110 MPG and has minimal emissions despite being a "dirty" two stroke engine.

Ironically, with a jetting and mixture change, it WILL run alcohol fuel, but for various reasons having to do with how the Tomos A35 engine works, the emissions are actually worse, and the mileage ain't all that great neither.

-F

KWICKO

Monday, August 3, 2009 12:01 PM

Quote:

I notice that being enviro-friendly is now a status symbol here, another feather in the hat for a consumer industry. Now you can gage people's wealth by whether they are energy and water self sufficient and the eco-friendliness of the car, while the poor still chugg around in petrol guzzlers and live in energy draining houses. Until this sort of technology is cheaply available for everyone, its just another badge the richies wear.

Yup, green is in, and that's in huge part due to INDIVIDUALS' actions, not a mandate from on high. Slowly, person by person, the message has spread, from Thoreau on down to today, until that message became not some weird fringe, but the mainstream.

As I tried to point out before, none of that means that the greenies can sit back and rest on their laurels; in fact, the progress they've made SHOULD encourage them to do more, go further, reach higher. But the real change in the world, when it's change for the better, at least, has ALWAYS come from the individual, not from the collective. The collective is always the follower, never the leader; it's reactive, not proactive. The collective sets the policy only after it's been told by its individual members what that policy should be.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college...

RUE

Tuesday, August 4, 2009 12:34 AM

"People who take responsibility as individuals will tend to act collectively out of the same sense of responsibility."

It only takes a few to run the world. All you have to do is run the economy. You can keep people so tied up with just struggling to stay alive, they'll never look your way.

Of course, it's a fine line you have to draw. When people have nothing left to lose, not even their lives, sooner or later they come to collective and desperate action - revolution. So you have to keep them hoping that they'll be able to just keep getting by. But not let them get so far ahead that they have free time and extra resources.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, August 4, 2009 2:00 AM

*ding*ding*ding*

We have a winner.

That's not just a roadblock to progress, it's also one of the most enraging factors of WHY folks cannot do their job as parents, cause they're too busy slaving to survive.

And those with nothin left to lose who fall off the tightrope - I catch em when I can, that's where I get half my people.

But yeah, in a nutshell that's EXACTLY how the scam works.

-F

SIGNYM

Tuesday, August 4, 2009 12:41 PM

One more thing: I noticed that change often begins with students.

OTOH, this current generation of students and recent students I've come to think of as the iPod people. I've never seen a groups so willingly caught up in consumerism and individual comfort.

AG05

Tuesday, August 4, 2009 2:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
One more thing: I noticed that change often begins with students.

Well, yeah. Grown-ups have to work, so they don't have the time. Or the money.

Mercy is the mark of a great man.
Guess I'm just a good man.
Well, I'm alright.

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, August 4, 2009 9:18 PM

Siggy, that's cause they weed out anyone who isn't during the process.

They have a "distorted worldview" or "bad attitude" or "personality disorder" - see ?

At least that's the game - not that those things don't exist mind you, that ain't what I am sayin, just pointing out how those diagnoses are misused on a very large scale to isolate, mitigate and medicate the socially fractious, ESPECIALLY those with leadership qualities of any kind.
(and conversely, reduces the availability and quality of this type of care for those who DO need it!)

And if the medication and pressure from their peers, the system and the occasional 'therapist' fails to make em toe the line - then it's out the door, thus depriving them of that paper they supposedly "need" (you know, I've not never ONCE had anyone even ask to see mine - EVER.) in order to get by...

Or, if they happen to be 'potentially useful' maybe one of the second chance schools, like the set of em they sent me to, partially financed by the military, which explained a LOT about why they made no effort to control the violence within and seemed to be actually encouraging it, when I found out years later - they had us cunning, bloodthirsty, angry little bastards right where they wanted us, fast-tracked to a military career - which kinda blew up in their face when they broke contract with me.

And failing that - the hellcamps.

Lemme strip the polite euphemisms away and put it clean and clear, although they're now falling into ruin and disorder, for many years we ran flat-out concentration camps in this country for kids who would not toe the line, taking the very best and brightest of us, and BREAKING them, often enough killing them, but most assuredly leaving them incapable of presenting any threat to the established order - much in the same fashion Felony convictions for bullshit offenses are used to blacklist adults from positions where they might be a threat.

This is especially clear today as one of my affiliates people is sitting in an Oklahoma jail cell right now for violating THIS ordinance...
http://atheism.about.com/od/flagburningstatelaws/a/OklahomaFlag.htm
Furthermore, it is a felony to "publicly display any red flag or other emblem or banner, indicating disloyalty to the Government of the United States or a belief in anarchy or other political doctrines or beliefs, whose objects are either the disruption or destruction of organized government, or the defiance of the laws of the United States or of the State of Oklahoma."
... for flying the black banner outside a town hall meeting.

I saw through this crap before I even hit puberty, and have fought against it tooth and claw all my life, because in combination with the economic engineering, this process more or less pre-eradicates anything that might resemble effective resistance before it even forms, and as such the dominoes plan was founded on breaking that system by dropping sand into it's gears on a priority basis - eliminate the hellcamps, push for youth rights, and break the chain of adversarial parenting that crushes our young into warped, twisted, darker copies of ourselves.

While surely there are individuals within our current generation who are capable resisters, in order for the necessary sea change to happen, it simply requires more people involved, and the best way to get them is to get in early, and assist them in any way possible at resisting not only the programming, but in evading the consequences FOR resisting that programming.

And over the course of more than two and a half decades, we been doin that, yet even so in a straight numbers game it ain't no contest - but it ain't about numbers, so much as ability, skill and will - some very effective force multipliers the other side doesn't much have.

The most important lesson though, is the ability to ask ones self a single, simple question.
"And imma listen to YOU, exactly... why ?"
That Heresy alone is worth a thousand strong arms.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are d

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, August 5, 2009 5:47 PM

Wow, that was quick.

We got the Okie cops to drop the charges - or rather, Augustus did.

He rang up some army buddies and had em march back in forth in front of the courthouse with black banners, the local cops kinda whimpered at the PR bungle arresting them would cause and booted Jeremy out the door in about two hours without so much as a "sorry bout that".

me: "You know people in Oklahoma ?!"
Gus: "There ARE black people in Oklahoma, you hillbilly cracker jackass!"
me: "And you know all three of them ?"
Gus: "WHY do you keep reminding me your chain of command had good reason to hate you so bad ?"
me: "You keep lobbin softballs, I'll keep hittin em."
Gus: "Can you for once, just ONCE, resist the temptation to pick some shit, son ?"
*pause*
me: "Nope."
Gus: "Goddamn, knew I kept your ass around for somethin."

Told him he oughta just have his former rank (E-6) tattoed on his arms, cause it's so bloody obvious, and I never COULD resist the urge to yank the chain of anyone with more stripes than me.

-F

JAYNEZTOWN

Friday, August 21, 2009 3:03 PM

RUE

Friday, August 21, 2009 3:10 PM

SignyM:
One more thing: I noticed that change often begins with students.

AG05:
Well, yeah. Grown-ups have to work, so they don't have the time. Or the money.

Weird thing is, when I was a student I had neither, same as most of the others I knew. You must know a different brand of student than I did. You DO personally know enough students to draw a conclusion about all students, I take it, and are not just spouting knee-jerk ignorant put-downs ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

DREAMTROVE

Friday, August 21, 2009 4:52 PM

Sig

Quote:

dancing naked around a fire

... should be video'd and put on youtube. Or some site that wouldn't whimp out.

Quote:
we’ve been victims of a campaign of systematic misdirection.

Yah, i mentioned this. Actually, I give peace marchers a rough time, and the "peace vigil" crowd a rougher time. Better plan? Become a special interest ;)

Quote:
the world is running out of water

No, it's not. Certain locations are, because that water is being siphoned off to feed coastal cities. Desalination plants are easy, and could be build with no technology. World rainfall, meanwhile, is on the rise. Human stupidity is also on the rise. We need to end bad farming practices supported by morons like the Heifer Project

Quote:
energy

The cleanest greenest energy is oil, which the earth has in nearly unlimited supply. Carbon filter technology already exists, is relatively cheap, and removes all emissions, created good fertilizer.

The problem here is that this is not a real end times scenario, but a problem-crisis-solution setup, where we are suppose to react to the impending doom and come crawling on our hands and knees to the PTB to save us, rather than set up some company that makes filters and sell industry on the idea.

Quote:
[problems]...first...notion... humans inevitably harm their landbase...ignoring ...humans can help the Earth as well as harm it. We can rehabilitate streams, ...rid... noxious invasives,... remove dams, ... disrupt ...system tilted toward the rich ...extractive economic system, ... destroy the industrial economy that is destroying the real, physical world.

Hmm. I think that humans do harm the landbase, but true, they don't have to. I don't think the industrial economy is the problem. destruction, overwhelmingly comes from agriculture. Most of this from poor primitive ag of the 3rd world little guy. the rest, govt electricity projects. Very little from private industry.

Quote:
... second...it incorrectly assigns blame to the individual ...instead of to those who actually wield power... Kirkpatrick Sale again: “The whole individualist what-you-can-do-to-save-the-earth guilt trip is a myth. We, as individuals, are not creating the crises, and we can’t solve them.”

the blame lies on the indiv. and govt. but you can't change others by behaving correctly. you need to show the people behaving badly (overfarmers, overfishers, deforesters) a better way: (grain-feeding, fish-farming, renewable wood, s/a bamboo, rubber...)

It's actually a technology increase needed. And this is a natural evolution. Most of the world is running on a system that supported a world of 100 million humans. Now we have 7 billion humans, and that primitive system is killing the planet.

Quote:
... third...redefinition of... citizens to consumers. ...reduce[s] our...resistance to consuming... voting... running for office, pamphleting, boycotting, organizing, lobbying, protesting, and, when a government becomes destructive of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, we have the right to alter or abolish it.

we have that right, most of the above are the misdirection he speaks of. I'll support "organizing, lobbying, running for office" but the rest of them have no impact. They're rat traps for the disenchanted citizen.

But there are better solutions: create new products that obviate overconsumption. Take Kindle: Sure, Kindle is a flash in the pan, it'll be eaten by your cell phone, but it will destroy an incredibly wasteful and destructive pulp publication industry that printed 40 million "Left Behind" books. That's a couple billion pages of wasted paper. Read about the apocalypse on your cell phone.

Quote:
... fourth... simple living ... is suicide. ...if we want to stop this destruction, ... we will cause the least destruction possible if we are dead.

This is a dumb argument that i'll ignore.

Quote:
... good news...there are other options. ... follow the examples of brave activists... Nazi Germany, Tsarist Russia, an

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

FIRST PAGE PREV PAGE 1 2