Thou shall not suffer a witch to live

POSTED BY: SimonWho
UPDATED: Monday, December 5, 2022 19:41
VIEWED: 25190
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ZAROVE

Thursday, July 23, 2009 5:26 PM

Thanks!

OUT2THEBLACK

Thursday, July 23, 2009 9:35 PM

Just happy to be doin' good works...

WASHNWEAR

Thursday, July 23, 2009 9:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ZAROVE:
Oh but on some occasions witches where burned, for ocnvienince, local custom, or also accused of Blasphemy or crimes against the state.

But most Witches where Hanged, with a few beheaded, or drowned.

Burned for convenience?!

Sorry - that just sorta caught my eye...carry on.

donttalkbackjustdrivethecarshutyourmouthiknowwhatyouaredontsaynothinkeepyourhandsonthewheeldontturnaroundthisisforreal

Still...what would Rorschach do?

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Friday, July 24, 2009 6:54 AM

Zarove,
I had thought James Stewart was Half Scot by his King and half pure English Royalty by Mary, and raised and educated in France to protect his life from Elizabeth, ruling Scotland in absentia - am I incorrect?

I did not mean that nowhere in the world is freedom currently cherished as in the U. S., but the Colonial revolt and Independence was the biggest blow to the Empire and started the fad. This resulted directly from the widespread publishing of the KJB, which resulted from Liz eliminating Mary - of course the result from Henry VIII's shenanigans.

MIKEWILLIAMSON

Friday, July 24, 2009 3:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ZAROVE:
Also, to your question.

Its no different from 9-11 Conspiracy theorists or people who think NASA faked the moon landing. Its rooted in fake evidence and badly understood history.

Funny, that's my position on religion.:)

The Inquisition killed people over their religious beliefs. "Saint" Olaf gave pagans the choice to convert to Christianity, leave Norway, or be emasculated and blinded.

While I don't think Christianity OF ITSELF is evil, don't pretend that massive evil hasn't been done in its name, and it certainly has been used as an excuse to kill people over religious beliefs.

Certainly, there were economic bases to the crusades. But I guarantee a number of crusaders did use it as an excuse to kill in Christ's name.

While modern Wicca is in fact evolved from Christianity in large part (which I find hysterical when talking to the fluffy bunny sect) (and my wife was the first serving Soldier to wear a pentacle as a locally authorized uniform device, and did conduct rituals at Ft Meade, so I do know what I'm talking about), and the numbers of "witches" killed during the Middle Ages is grossly exaggerated, I can still offer examples of violence done against them, and prejudice against them, BY CHRISTIANS, quoting the Bible as justification.

Don't make me dig up the proscription on crossbows against Christians, but fine to use on heathens, or the SQUARE BULLETS developed to kill Turks because they would make more horrible wounds (They thought).

And since the Bible insists that PI = 3, that locusts have 4 legs, that hail and snow are kept in granaries in heaven, etc, please don't pretend it's anything more than yet another mythology.

It's great that you believe substantial parts of it, it's wonderful that you use it in a positive fashion to improve your life, and it seems you also use it to enlighten others by example. All great things. But one can do that with ANY mythology, if the person in question is decent and compassionate.

Recent novels by Michael Z. Williamson
CONTACT WITH CHAOS, Apr 09 from Baen Books
BETTER TO BEG FORGIVENESS..., Nov 07 from Baen Books
http://www.MichaelZWilliamson.com

MIKEWILLIAMSON

Friday, July 24, 2009 3:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Just had this documentary brought to my attention after it was nominated for a BAFTA. It's strange to think that what looks like a throwback of two centuries in "Safe" when River is to be burnt at the stake for being a witch is still going on today:

The interesting thing about African tribal superstition is that in multiple interviews, the interviewee will admit to a confidante that their magic is fake.

"But we have to pretend we have powerful magic, because (that tribe over there) has a shaman who can turn into a giant frog, cause people to fall asleep, raise boils and make leopards arrive to eat people."

It's a mutual BS society, where no one has made the jump that everyone else's magic is also merely PR.

Recent novels by Michael Z. Williamson
CONTACT WITH CHAOS, Apr 09 from Baen Books
BETTER TO BEG FORGIVENESS..., Nov 07 from Baen Books
http://www.MichaelZWilliamson.com

ZAROVE

Friday, July 24, 2009 4:37 PM

mIKE-

, that's my position on religion.:)

You may have any take you want, but this would ultimatley include your religion. One of those bits of badly understood history is the history of what words mean, and what things actually are. No one is non-religious, even though some say they are today. Religion is really simply a set of belefs regarding the world we live in, and concerns itself with establishing the ocntext by which we understand it and our lives. It is a set of beleifs regarding the nature of our world and our existance.

So, religion isnt somehtign anyone lacks, or can eb free of. its foundaitonal, and in fact nessisary for us to have in order to udnerstand the world we live in. You can change relgiions, but you cannog be free of it.

The Inquisition killed people over their religious beliefs. "Saint" Olaf gave pagans the choice to convert to Christianity, leave Norway, or be emasculated and blinded.

And Saiot Patrick insisted that no one die, and was threatened with death by Pagans routinely in Ireland. He still managed to win converts peacefully. Saint Alban was martyred at the hands of a Pagan King because he protected a Priest and refused to recant his own conversion to CHristainity. Saint Jhn CHrystom sought only dialouge thinkign that Pagans coudl be converted by sheer reason.

No one ever said all Christains where always good, but oen thing I tire of is the idiotic attacks on Christianity, which basicllay focus only on the bad, and act as if this composed the bulk of Christain History. The eay it spresented, all fo Europe was conquered byt he sword and Christainity imposed upon the people by force. Actually, this isn't true by and large. With a handful of exceptions, such as Olof, or the Campaigns of CHarlimege, which where largely politiclaly motivated, Christianity spread throughout Europe peacefully along ROman Trade Routes.

Pagans tended to convert to Christainity because Christyaisn offered them a consistant theology, and actually provided them help. As Christianity focused mainly on doign good to others,which the Pagan religions (Plural, it was never a single religion) didn't, peopel saw in Christianity a better way to ive.

If you jst focus on the Olofs, sure, CHristainity becomes a dark force in History, but there where many more St. Albans and St. Patricks and St. Augustines than there where St. Olofs.

And even Olof was misunderstood. He didnt make that offer simply because he was a cruel man, but because the Norwegean Pagans where a particulalry violent and hostile brood.( Check their hisotry.) CHristainity tamed them into a civilised people, but those who rfused wanted to carry on in their Pagan ways, which Inlcuded rape and pillage.

That may not be th ePC thing to say, and we may prefer ot think of them as meley having different religiosu beleifs abotu gods and different rituals, and the Eeeeeeeeevil Christaisn came alogn to kill them on that basis alone, but this just sint so. The Norwegeian Oagans weren't peaceful, and didn't at all care about the rights of other peopel themselves.

But who cares about real History? If the point is to tarnish Christanity, Olof killed those who refused to convert because he was mean, anxdd is represnetitive of how Christainty spread throgujut Europe, ebcause that way Christainity is a bad relgiion soaked in blood. WHo cares hwy he did hwat he id or the real hisotry? WHo cares about all the peaceful mizsions that gradually converted Europe? This makes it easier to hate Christainity.

Just ike pointing to 9-11 and pretendign that represents Islam makes it easier to hate Islam.

Hey, did you know Jews slaughtered some peopel in villages of Eastern Europe in the 1100's? I guess all Jews are evil too. Jews also prodiuced Bernie Madoff so I guess they really all are greedy theives.

Obviously, focusign on negative examples is unhelpful.

While I don't think Christianity OF ITSELF is evil, don't pretend that massive evil hasn't been done in its name, and it certainly has been used as an excuse to k

MSA

Friday, July 24, 2009 5:23 PM

In the original Hebrew manuscript, the author used the word m'khashepah to describe the person who should be killed. The word means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others - e.g. causing their death or loss of property. Clearly "evil sorceress" or "woman who does evil magic" would be the most accurate phrases in today's English usage for this verse.

Also,The King James Version and Revised English Bible use the term "witch." In North America, at this time, the term normally refers to Wiccans -- the followers of the Wiccan religion. According to the Scofield Reference Bible this verse from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) was written in the year 1491 BCE. This is some 650 years before the origin of the Celtic people circa 850 BCE from whom some elements of Wicca were taken. So Exodus 22:18 can hardly be referring to Wiccans.

To love someone is to see a miracle invisible to others.
--Francois Mauriac
It's fuzzy-minded liberal thinking like that that gets you eaten.

ZAROVE

Friday, July 24, 2009 5:53 PM

Actually the term is Gender neutral. It doesn't refer only to women, but can include men.

Men where, in fact, more likely to be accused of Witchcraft than women in Ancient Israel.

That said, Wicca derives the bulk of its ideas from 19th century romantic notions and Margaret Murray's book, but I've forgotten the title so need to look it up. I do not think Wicca actually derived anything form Paganism in the past.

I cold be wrong as Wicca changes rapidly, but last I checked a few years ago, other than the names of the gods they use, and general relation one to another, Wicca tends to be wholly modern.

One last quibble, Scofield did not claim anything happened in any year BCE. He would have used BC. BCE is an attempt to de-Christianise the calender, which itself is daft since its based (thouh inaccurately) on the time Jesus was suppose to have been born.

I always found our cultures need to attack Christianity an odd thing to study, as it seems so prevalent.

it also renders people willing to suspend all reason and go along with stupidity. Like when Mike said the Bible insists Pi is 3 because of a reference to a pool that used estimated values.

Then again, MSA thinks I don't know what the word belies means and that I'm an idiot, so I suppose anything is attackable.

ZAROVE

Friday, July 24, 2009 5:59 PM

Jewel, I am sorry, I overlooked our excel;ent post.

Zarove,
I had thought James Stewart was Half Scot by his King and half pure English Royalty by Mary, and raised and educated in France to protect his life from Elizabeth, ruling Scotland in absentia - am I incorrect?

I did not mean that nowhere in the world is freedom currently cherished as in the U. S., but the Colonial revolt and Independence was the biggest blow to the Empire and started the fad. This resulted directly from the widespread publishing of the KJB, which resulted from Liz eliminating Mary - of course the result from Henry VIII's shenanigans.

Yes indeed! Though to be fair, by 1776 the Authorised Version had become ubiquitous in households and was already Printed. However, it required the Royal seal to do so thus the crown retained power over the publication and distribution. The American revolt lead to that good thing, amongst the few good things it accomplished, in hat it increased the availability and distribution of the Bible.

And contrary to those who think Americas founders wanted a complete seperation of Church and State that forbade the Goernment ever financing anything to do wiht Religion ( except thier own, which they simply rebrand as nonreligion), Congress itself published the Authorised Version for general distribution.

Of course, Americas founders wherent like the modern Evangelicals, nor sid their vision coincide with the modern Evangelical vision, but they where harldy militant secularists either.

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