Thou shall not suffer a witch to live

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UPDATED: Monday, December 5, 2022 19:41
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MIKEWILLIAMSON

Friday, July 24, 2009 6:09 PM

I specifically said that Christianity is not inherently evil, but you made a false statement:

Quote:
"No one killed people over their Religious beliefs."

Utterly false.

There may or may not have been an overall plan that justified it, for right or wrong, as defending pilgrims. The publicly announced statement of purpose may or may not collate with the intended real world purpose.

This puts you in the position of proving such pilgrims had a right to be there. I agree they did, but the international relations at the time were different. Someone persecuting members of your faith half a world away, as a justification to go do likewise, is, in fact, killing over faith. Whether or not it's justified is a separate argument. I believe it was, but they were, in fact, killing over a matter of faith, on foreign soil.

And a good number of people did, in fact, kill or get killed over their religious beliefs.

Let's briefly mention the IRA, who were dedicated Marxist-Leninists, attempting to create their own state that was condemned by both the UK AND the Irish Republic, but I can assure you first hand that a LOT of people felt it was a religious war, Catholic vs Protestant, publicly stated so, and acted accordingly. BTDT

The Pi issue, I was simply pointing out that the Bible is not a scientific text. It's myth--part history (though a lot of dates don't quite synch, which is true of ANY historical document from the past), part philosophy, part theology. My intent is not to pick it apart. I'm just pointing out that it is far from inerrant.

The correct texts on locusts is:

http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/19/Q1/

Quote:
he only flying insects with four walking legs that you may eat are those which have knees extending above their feet, [using these longer legs] to hop on the ground.

But Christians have interpreted this as:
20 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you. (KJV)

They're not fowls, for one.

20 All winged insects that go upon all fours are an abomination to you. (RSV)

20 Every winged crawling thing that goeth upon all four shall be an abomination unto you. (Darby)

This repeated translation is IN ERROR in that it is insufficiently descriptive. If I read that, I can't eat a creature that doesn't exist--an insect with four legs. That's nice. I also wouldn't eat one with 2.5 legs. The translation, as written, can't be parsed without referential study. Bad translation! Bad, BAD translation! No dessert!

Especially as providing the correct fix is rather easy. See the Hebrew reference above.

The fact that issues like this are still under debate 2500 years later just shows how poorly written and sourced the material is.

Again, this is not an attack on faith. It's a rebuttal that Christianity did not engage in faith-based killing. It has. Far less than Islam, but far more than Buddhism. It's also a denial that any scripture is inerrant.

oh, yes:

Job 38:22, Items Stored- Hail & Snow

"Hast thou entered into the storehouses of the snow, and hast thou seen the treasuries of the hail,"

Osar is literally translated to mean: treasury, storehouse, storeroom, storage vault, treasures, treasuries, cellars, armory and garners. All of these definitions are interchangeable for the Hebrew word Osar when it is used in scripture. Another Hebrew word that is often used to describe storerooms in scripture is the Hebrew word : Liska. In Strong's Liska is translated to mean: chamber or chambers, storeroom and parlour.

Again, it's poetic, allegorical, and valid. But it sure as hell ain't literal.

Recent novels by Michael Z. Williamson
CONTACT WITH CHAOS, Apr 09 from Baen Books
BETTER TO BEG FORGIVENESS..., Nov 07 from Baen Books
http://www.MichaelZWilliamson.com

SHADESIREN

Friday, July 24, 2009 11:05 PM

I always kinda thought they were putting the empahasis on the wrong word.

If you think of it a little differently, maybe what it REALLY meant is as long as you let the witch live, you won't suffer.

You shall not suffer; a witch to live....

(ok, silly, but I had to mention it because it amuses me....)

You know you want it - http://www.shadesiren.com

You know you need it - http://www.oberonrpg.com

ZAROVE

Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:17 AM

Shad- the word "Suffer" means allow. The King James teanslation is form 1611, and newer translaitosn do not use this word.

Mike-

I specifically said that Christianity is not inherently evil,

And yet procceeded to make idiotic arugment slike the Bible insists that Pi=3, when it never even says this, and the complaint comes from a description of a molten sea in a Kings Palace.

The point is, you do seem to want ot run it down. Worse, you useing Jewish texts to do it, and seem to approach the bible as a single book, and htink these thins even if valuid prive the enture Bible is mythology.

None of that is logical.

but you made a false statement:

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"No one killed people over their Religious beliefs."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Utterly false.

Not really. Especially since, in context, I was refering specifically tot wh Witch Trials, We may have sidetracked to the Crusades, which where also not killings over beleifs spexifically, but the actual context of what IO said was about the Witch Trials. No one ded in the Witch Trials over mere beleifs.

Well, except the beleif that the accused where Witches.

But it wasn't religious persecution.

There may or may not have been an overall plan that justified it, for right or wrong, as defending pilgrims. The publicly announced statement of purpose may or may not collate with the intended real world purpose.

Well all we have to go by are the Historical records. I also did mention that abuses did occure in the Crusades, however, unlike the myth that built around them after the Enlightenment, they wherne't just indiscriminate killing of people by Christians. They where done for reasons that make sense if you look at the world these people actulaly lived in.

This puts you in the position of proving such pilgrims had a right to be there. I agree they did, but the international relations at the time were different. Someone persecuting members of your faith half a world away, as a justification to go do likewise, is, in fact, killing over faith. Whether or not it's justified is a separate argument. I believe it was, but they were, in fact, killing over a matter of faith, on foreign soil.

Your actually assumign what my faith is. I never mentioen dit in these threads. For all you know I coudl be an Athiest. I've seen Athiest correct these sorts of bad aruments before.

That said, I've already explained the reasonign behind the Crusades. And it wanst killign over Faith, as much as killing over A faith. And actually it was no different than killing for patriotism today.

In our world we may try to seperate Religion form everyday life, politics, and the real world, but obviously this is imposisble. Peopel who beleiv ein Buddhism arent capable of just beign buddhisst at home or in their temples, as Buddhism informs them of bow to ive in the owlrd, and how to see it. The same is true of Islam or Christainity.

And in a world in which Christainity was seen as an unquesitoned truth by Europeans, and clealry was how they shaped their enture society, then the rights of Christains to make Pilgirmage to the holy land obviously woudl be equelly political.

Further, if you agree they had this right, then Im not sure what your actual comlaint is.

And a good number of people did, in fact, kill or get killed over their religious beliefs.

Not really. They where killed over the land rights. When you say "Over their religious beleifs" it implies to the reader at least that you mean the Crusades where about theology. But the Catholic Church did not instigate any of the Crusades over theological differences with the Muslim world, but land rights, which is why they all died, Crusader and Ottomon alike.

Let's briefly mention the IRA, who were dedicated Marxist-Leninists, attempting to create their own state that was condemned by b

BYTEMITE

Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:29 AM

What do you consider the fighting that occurred between Protestants and Catholics?

And were witches considered heretics?

ZAROVE

Saturday, July 25, 2009 1:40 AM

WELL, unlike the detractors here, I never said that no violence ever occured. I simply wantes it in proper context. The Reformation did spark actuual conflicts over beleifs, though you have to understand it from a certain historical vantage as well.

The enturety of European culture weas Catholic, and the new ideas posed a hreat not only to the power of the Catholic Church, but to society as well. Just like any other great change in society, people feared it woudl unravel the enturty of culture, ans in some ways it did.

Those who where Catholic feared the new theology, both because they feared the consewuences of damnation to their fllow men, and because they feared what a society that belived such would do.

Protestants beleived in the new theology and thought the Catholic Church was corrupt, and also feared what would happen if they returned to it.

And of coruse there where political motives involved too. Henry the 8ths motivation for joining the reformation was inherantly political and selfish. The German Princes saw his as a way to gain control over CHurch land and to regulat he Churches themselves, thus givving them pwoer over what the people beleived.

It wasn't all about theology but society, consequences, and grabs for power.

But yes the Reformaiton lead to killing over beleifs.

However, my original comment was only meant to be aimed at the Witch Trials.

Also, no, Witches wheren't typically seen as Heretics. To be a Heretic you have to hold a beleif that conflicts with official Church teachign whilst being a member. Thisis why the Protestants of the Reformation where seen as Heretical.

A Witch practiced the occult to harm others or for mersonal gain using sinister methods.

That woudl be about the same as murder or theft, in that it doens't invovle ones beleifs abouttheology, only oens actions. ANd osmetiems allegience as they where aid to side witht he devil. But even givin yourself to the devil doens't make you a Heretic if you beleive all the right doctrines.

SHADESIREN

Saturday, July 25, 2009 2:03 AM

Wow. I think that joke mussed up your hair flying over your head.

Now I remember why I don't post here very often.

(just because you say something simple doesn't mean you're 'simpleminded'.)

BYTEMITE

Saturday, July 25, 2009 2:57 AM

But... I believe all that occult stuff was superstition, how could it hurt anyone?

Were witches poisoners, did they brew dangerous potions?

Or were innocent people being accused of the physically impossible out of fear and ignorance?

And if there were no basis for the charges, what were they charged with to warrant punishment? Witchery? What is that? How did they define it?

Did they believe that witches had congress with the devil, or not?

ZAROVE

Saturday, July 25, 2009 5:01 AM

AS to if Witches where real or not, I leave that up to each to decide. I have a policy to stick to confirmed facts and logicsal proccesses, and given that its impossible to actually know if Witches where or are real, I'll just leave it as a matter for private consideration.

But regarding beleifs, it depends. Giventhat Witches where part of Lore for many thousands of years, and veen in Christain Europe for 2000 years, beleifs regardign them had been rather broad and sweeping.

Some thought that some witches had sexual relations withthe Devil, but not all, noting the Devil was a spiritual being, for one. Others simply thought they had promoscuous sexual tendancies.

All where thought to work evil by means of occult powers, and usually this measnt they would often employ the aid of Demons. Such ideas as Witches having Familiars, Demons which coudl asusme a Physical form and did the witches bidding, became commonplace, as did the idea of the Withc makign a pact with the Devil.

But beleifs regardign them where diverse, and typiclaly depended on region and time period.

As to brewing potions, his is one of the few aspects of the witch that is constant. Witches where suppose to brew potions, as well as whisper spells and icantations. This is true in all Withccraft lore, including those before Christianity began.

In fact, the Pharmecea, or Greek Sorcerers, where really just Drug peddlers who knew what drugs woudl make you high or cause hallucinations.

Those Witches where clealry real, though their abilities may have been exagerated, or the result ofpeopels expeirnces with their wares leading them to fail to distinguish reality form a drug induced hallucination.

Also, more than liekly most of the witches tried durign the midaevel and early modern period where innocent, and the vast majority actually protested their innocence until death.

That said, it shoudl be noted that, again, contrary tot he image, Christainity did not prosecute witches early on, and durign the years between the 4th century and about 1100 AD, most in the Church actulaly argued that Witches did not exist.

It was only after the 1200's or 1300's that Withc Trials really began to pick up, and techniclaly it was the Early Modern period which saw the upsweep of Witch trials.

The Church also outlawed Torture in as earlu as the 300's.

It was, of ocruse, revived, but not until the 1300's.

BYTEMITE

Saturday, July 25, 2009 5:31 AM

Was the pick up in witch hunting associated with the inquisition?

ZAROVE

Saturday, July 25, 2009 3:52 PM

No.

The Inquisition is another of those often toted "Atrocities committed by the Christian Church" that few people actually take the time to understand, and itself has a lot of myths associated with it in peoples minds.

The Holy Office of the Inquisition was actually not a Universally Christian Court, but was founded in 1233 by the Western Catholic Church. The Orthodox, along with not fighting the Crusades, yet still being accused of the blood being on their hands, didn't have an equivalent.

The Inquisition was also originally praised for being an extremely fair court, to a much greater extent than the Secular courts.

The Inquisition also came and went with the times, and was never a constant presence in Europe, which is another common myth. It never played as large a role in society either.

Mainly, its prominence occurred a few times throughout its history, and the Inquisition ended in 1800 AD.

The worst Inquisition, and one that won it its dark reputation (Well, along with it being an easy target for the Enlightenment propaganda, which also gave us the Myth of the Dark Ages and myth of Christians causing Rome to fall) was the Spanish Inquisition, which was actually controlled by the Spanish Government rather than the Church, and used to root out political dissent in the ruse of Ecclesiastical purity.

PBS actually did an excellent series on the Inquisition you can order on Amazon, which is a multi-episode series, which I recommend if you wan tot learn the history in any sort of depth.

Anyway, the Inquisition was an internal affairs court. The reason the Inquisitional court existed was to ensure the purity of the faith by trying Heretics. As I noted, Witches where seen as Criminals, not Heretics, and most of the time they where tried by Civil authorities, not Ecclesiastical ones.

When they where tried by Ecclesiastical courts, it was still not under the auspices of the Inquisition, but the general clerical courts which existed separately, and since before the Inquisition was founded.

However, mist Witch Trials where conducted by Civil, Secular Courts, not the Church, and on occasion the Church actually opposed Witch Trials done by the State.

The Witch trials tended to spark up whenever there was civil unrest, or political upheaval, and are actually part of a Phenomenon that still occurs today. When a society suffers mass hysteria, or else has a lot of anxiety over the future and a nebulous since of doom, combined with a growing uncertainty over how affairs will play out or how secure you are, people want to express those feelings, and often turn to projecting these fears onto an external target.

Culture provides the context of what that target will be, and in the Early Modern period (contrary to common myth, most Witch trials where early modern, not Medieval) it was easy to blame maladies on Witches.

Usually it was a time of Famine, or a time when Kings tried to usurp other kings thrones, or the Nation was at risk of invasion, or there was a sharp cultural struggle which threatened how society operates.

This is why one of the Witch Trial spurts occurred during the Protestant Reformation, along with the aforementioned Violence. The idea of having a plethora of Religious beliefs in a society was foreign to them, and they assumed one or there other would prevail, and need to. The overall belief was that you needed society to have a single, consistent and shared belief system for society to operate smoothly, and these people, after 1500 years of that being Catholic, where confronted with he new ideas of the Protestants. Many feared that the conflict, or rapid Change, would cause society to disintegrate and there was massive uncertainty regarding the future.

Add to this the fact that a lot of people became politically motivated in this struggle, from Henry the 8th, whose sole interest was getting a divorce and later ensuring his own private control over the Church, to the German Princes who saw this as an opportunity to possess Church lands and regulate the churches themselves

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