Socialism
POSTED BY: SergeantX
UPDATED: Monday, August 26, 2024 16:07
VIEWED: 8502
PAGE 8 of 12
Quote:Right.
Absolutely not--AS LONG AS THERE IS GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION. And how exactly were they swallowed up by Cargill and Monsanto? With government intervention.
This didn't happen because the factory farm can grow pork and chicken cheaper per unit than the family farm????
Or that Walmart contracted for very cheap products with the Chinese because they can guarantee to sell millions of units, and used their leverage to dump goods into specific markets to force out the competition?
Or that Microsoft coerced exclusive agreements with Dell and other PC distributors, and used their superior finances to buy up and kill smaller (better, competitive) products?
As for big business having been startups at one time, I already addressed that in detail. But if you wish, I will readdress it again in brief: Startups generally focus on new products. They are then either bought out by larger existing companies, or they themselves BECOME a big company. But the TREND is towards big (either vertical or horizontal monopolies) because they generate larger profits and higher margins.
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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Quote:The problem is, they are very responsive to corporations under consistent pressure as well, more so than to their people.
Originally posted by SignyM:
So, just to bump this up: CTS, Sarge, I can show you many governments which are responsive to their people under consistent pressure.
Quote:Not in recent history, because of government intervention.
Can you show me any occasion in which a mature industry de-consolidated?
But just as an example, the horse carriage industry deconsolidated when the automobile industry started up. The lantern industry deconsolidated when the lightbulbs were placed in every home.
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I don't like government because if there is a government, someone will buy it.
-- Milton Friedman
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So old industries fail when new technologies are developed. That's not de-consolidation.
Quote:The problem is, the people still believe that corporations are the fount of all wealth. Right now, under pressure from the worst recession since the Great depression, most people simply want things to go back to the way they were. Tearing down corporatocracy is too scary for most. Our current government IS responding to "the people", because if there was a significant push (shit, look at Iran) in one direction government would move.
The problem is, they are very responsive to corporations under consistent pressure as well, more so than to their people.
Quote:Like what? Be specific. Name me the policy, cite me the regulation, which made Microsoft a monopoly. Show me which "government interventions" created Walmart, forced so many chip makers out of business, and consolidated the media.
Not in recent history, because of government intervention.
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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Quote:This didn't happen because the family farm is prevented (BY GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION) from inventing new technology that will make them more efficient and cost effective and more profitable than the factory farm.
Originally posted by SignyM:
This didn't happen because the factory farm can grow pork and chicken cheaper per unit than the family farm????
As you say, and I agree, technology is key.
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I have no special talents, I am only passionately curious.
-- Albert Einstein
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Quote:LIKE WHAT???? You keep waving your hands, I look, but nothing is there.
This didn't happen because the family farm is prevented (BY GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION) from inventing new technology that will make them more efficient and cost effective and more profitable than the factory farm.
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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Quote:That is the free market competition cycle I'm talking about.
Originally posted by SignyM:
So old industries fail when new technologies are developed. That's not de-consolidation.
Fail, deconsolidate, whatever, the gist is the same. The big guys get replaced by the little guys. By the time the little guys become big guys, there are new little guys with new technology, and the cycle starts again.
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Our society is only as free as the least free among us.
-- Martin Luther King, Jr.
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But the TREND is towards monopolism. Always. Because bigger is more efficient. And while the new technology is percolating in the background for 50-75 years (typically based BTW on blue-sky university or government research) wealth continues to consolidate.
And you still need to come up with examples of "government intervention" which you say is the root of consolidation in the media, farming, food processing, software, chip manufacturing, retail etc.
BTW- Did you know that the physical internet was created by DARPA, and that the WWW technology was developed at CERN and given away for free?
Quote:Anyway, many things to do today. TTUL.
The world wide web is "still in its infancy", the web's inventor Sir Tim Berners-Lee has told BBC News.He was speaking ahead of the 15th anniversary of the day the web's code was put into the public domain by Cern, the lab where the web was developed and that the technology for the world-wide web
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7371660.stm
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We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy
Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
LIKE WHAT????
Sure, an example. Let's say someone has an idea to make cheap, synthetic fuel out of waste material. Free us from our dependence on petroleum. Wow. That'll put some big boys out of business, wouldn't it?
So he build's a pilot plant in his shop. It works. He wants to build a larger plant, but needs bulk waste material. He goes to waste locations, but they won't let him have the waste because of whatever govt regulation that won't let waste be moved. He wants to build his plant at waste locations but can't because of whatever govt regulation that says he can't build there. He wants people to start giving him their waste, but he can't because of whatever govt regulation that says he can't take waste. To make it all work, he would need a huge amount of capital to influence the laws (and lawmakers) to make an exception for him. By then, he has to explain in detail why he wants these exceptions, the big boys find out, and pay whoever they need to pay to sabotage this effort.
Even if they don't, and this guy succeeds in building his plant, he needs a way to sell his product. Now he needs another huge amount of capital to meet govt regulations and taxation codes on the sale of fuel. Another huge chunk of capital.
If only he could make the fuel and sell it to his neighbors out of his garage without violating a dozen laws...
Nowadays, to pose competition to the big boys, you have to be rich to begin with--to overcome the hurdles. But the rich folks get their money from the big boys, so the last thing they want to do is destroy, deconsolidate, or force their own investments or buddies to fail.
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If everything's under control, you're going too slow.
-- Mario Andretti
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Hey SignyM, just wondering. You've probably talked about this on other threads in the board, but I don't remember.
I also think corporate capitalism or even just "big fish" capitalism kind of inevitably lead to monopoly. And I think that when a corporation gets really powerful, they can pretty much control the government with lobbyists and money.
But what do you think about how recently major corporations that were dying were bailed out and gulped up by the government? Necessary government intervention to save the economy, or a scary sign of just how closely interrelated government and corporations are? Or something else?
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Quote:I don't dispute that.
Originally posted by SignyM:
But the TREND is towards monopolism. Always.
What I dispute is the trend to STAY at monopolism. I say if left alone, the trend is a cycle, where the monopoly breaks when new revolutionary technology is introduced.
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That Government which Governs the Least, Governs Best.
-- Thomas Jefferson
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