Socialism

POSTED BY: SergeantX
UPDATED: Monday, August 26, 2024 16:07
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GEEZER

Thursday, July 2, 2009 1:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Lucky I'm not making my argument in those terms then.

Citizen: "Social Welfare is Socialist."

Why?

Citizen: "Isn't the clue in the name?"

That's the sum of your argument. So apparently Social Security, social networking, and ice cream socials are all socialist too.

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That wasn't my argument.

You don't have any argument any more. You've reached your usual state where you're out of facts, and just fall back on "No it isn't", It's irrelevent", and "I can't be bothered to answer", with the random insult thrown in.

You say "Social Welfare is Socialist." Prove it. Provide clear reasoning and cites. Don't give me your usual "It's right up there in between the thousands of words of drivel" line. You're the one who made the statement. Defend it or let it go.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KPO

Thursday, July 2, 2009 2:50 PM

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Quote:

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Originally posted by kpo:
Just pointing out a bit of history that was interesting (and relevant) - not 'claiming' anything. Are you trying to argue that a Social Democrat party played an important role in forwarding the idea of a pension system? Fine, I can happily concede that.
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Really, because when you said this:

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Introduced interestingly by Germany under Otto von Bismarck, a staunch anti-socialist heading a government that certainly wasn't a social democracy, it wasn't even a democracy.
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I got the impression you were claiming Germany had no democracy whatsoever, no Social Democratic movement within that Democracy, and that the Pension system was implemented by the Staunchly anti-socialist Bismark. The over ridding claim would be that Social Democracy or Socialist had nothing to do with the Pension system's implementation.

Perhaps I misunderstood?

Yes. I meant what I said - and hardly any of what you 'understood'.

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"the exception that disproves the rule" doesn't exist

Except in maths, and science. And all logic.

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I'm not reframing anything.

You seemed to be with the word 'modern' (as highlighted in my original quote). I can debate within the frame of 'state' social welfare.

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Even if that is so, it doesn't disprove anything. No idea forms in a vacuum, if Socialism formed as ideas about the state caring for it's citizens came to the fore, and Socialism was where those ideas found their home, while movements branching from, directly related too, or borrowing from Socialism are the only ones to put those ideas into action, how is it not correct to say they come from socialism.

But it was socialism that borrowed from a pre-existing movement. And often it was a non-socialist government that 'put the ideas into action'. So if socialism doesn't get the full (or even the majority of) credit for originating the idea, and can't be fully credited with putting the idea into practice either, how the hell does it 'overall' end up with all the credit??

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In which case what philosophies do you suggest?

Fuzion made an interesting point earlier on the origins of social welfare:

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the modern welfare state has roots dating back to classical liberal thinkers such as John Stuart Mill and even Adam Smith...

I was surprised that you ignored this post, are you only realising now that it undermines your position completely?

Heads should roll

KPO

Thursday, July 2, 2009 3:03 PM

Quote:
It's your logic that says it can't be capitalist if it's employed by other systems, not mine. Your the one making the big thing about Social Welfare can't have come from Socialism because according to your opinion it can come from other social systems

Regarding this whole 'logic' business - I'm not sure that I can speak for Geezer, but:

Citizen, two statements:

1) Social welfare is a tenet of socialism
2) Social welfare is socialist (by definition)

Do you see a diference between what is being stated in each instance? You act like either one implies the other - and when Geezer or I attack one, you act like we are attacking both...

If you only believe in 1), then we can agree to disagree (not my preferred definition of socialism). But if you want to claim 2) as well, then know that this is the one under dispute.

Heads should roll

CITIZEN

Thursday, July 2, 2009 3:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
That's the sum of your argument. So apparently Social Security, social networking, and ice cream socials are all socialist too.

And the sum of your argument is Social Welfare isn't socialist because you say so, and any evidence to the contrary must be ignored.

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You don't have any argument any more.

Not when you ignore it because you can't argue against it, no.

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You've reached your usual state where you're out of facts, and just fall back on "No it isn't", It's irrelevent", and "I can't be bothered to answer", with the random insult thrown in.

Not really, but you've reached your usual point where you provide no facts, ignore any that disagree with you, and make generally dishonest statements.

Quote:
You say "Social Welfare is Socialist." Prove it. Provide clear reasoning and cites. Don't give me your usual "It's right up there in between the thousands of words of drivel" line. You're the one who made the statement. Defend it or let it go.

I have, several times. Unfortunately all you do is ignore anything you can't argue against. I've defended it, but I can't force you not to ignore it. You can't argue against it, and you can't let it go. You can't answer any question put to you, and the best rhetorical technique you have left is to lie about what I said, and claim I haven't provided what I already have on numerous occasions. I'm not going to repost half the thread just so you can stick you fingers in your ears again and say "nuhuh".

CITIZEN

Thursday, July 2, 2009 3:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Yes. I meant what I said - and hardly any of what you 'understood'.

You can't blame me for reading what you wrote and not what you meant.

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Except in maths, and science. And all logic.

It works perfectly as a figure of speech, which is, lo and behold, exactly as I used it.

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But it was socialism that borrowed from a pre-existing movement. And often it was a non-socialist government that 'put the ideas into action'. So if socialism doesn't get the full (or even the majority of) credit for originating the idea, and can't be fully credited with putting the idea into practice either, how the hell does it 'overall' end up with all the credit??

If these ideas formed either the bedrock or within Socialism, and then other systems got the idea from Socialism, how does it not.

Why do you give all the credit of private ownership to Capitalism when private ownership has been a mainstay of most economic systems other than capitalism?

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I was surprised that you ignored this post, are you only realising now that it undermines your position completely?

You're surprised I ignored that post? Lucky I didn't then isn't it.

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Um no, the modern welfare state comes from the Social Democracy movement, which is socialism that rejected certain ideas of Marx, such as Democracy being bad, and the necessity for state ownership of the means of production.

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Regarding this whole 'logic' business - I'm not sure that I can speak for Geezer, but:

Citizen, two statements:

1) Social welfare is a tenet of socialism
2) Social welfare is socialist (by definition)

Do you see a diference between what is being stated in each instance? You act like either one implies the other - and when Geezer or I attack one, you act like we are attacking both...

If you only believe in 1), then we can agree to disagree (not my preferred definition of socialism). But if you want to claim 2) as well, then know that this is the one under dispute.

I'm saying that the whole idea of the state providing for it's citizens ala State Social Welfare, is Socialist, and not really seen outside of Socialism as an ideal of any other political movement or system. Where it occurs outside of a socialist government, its where aspects of Socialist thought have been embraced, and others rejected.

You and Geezer both manage to accept if there's any private ownership in the economy it's suddenly completely capitalist, but deny things mixed up entirely in socialist thought are socialist.

GEEZER

Thursday, July 2, 2009 4:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I have, several times.

Then do me the favor of quickly cut-and-pasting your argument into one concise paragraph. Since it's all in your posts above, it shouldn't take you long, and would save all this "did/didn't". Thanks.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KPO

Saturday, July 4, 2009 2:28 PM

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Quote:

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Originally posted by kpo:
Yes. I meant what I said - and hardly any of what you 'understood'.
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You can't blame me for reading what you wrote and not what you meant.

Don't be dense. I just said clearly that what I wrote was exactly what I meant - you just misread that to mean something that you wanted, as you did with my original quote.

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It works perfectly as a figure of speech, which is, lo and behold, exactly as I used it.

Fine. And my expression works too, and is arguably more to the point.

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I'm saying that the whole idea of the state providing for it's citizens ala State Social Welfare, is Socialist,

And I say clearly not, as the basic idea and at least some of the specific policy ideas predate socialism. With 'whole idea' you are over-reaching in trying to gain credit for socialism, and falling flat. And no, I've never heard a pro-capitalist say that the 'whole idea' of private ownership of industry is capitalist (one could kind of say 'that is the whole idea of capitalism', but that's not the same thing).

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Where it occurs outside of a socialist government, its where aspects of Socialist thought have been embraced, and others rejected.

You assume that socialism was the sole inheritor of the basic idea of social welfare. Why should that be? The idea was around (at least) several decades before socialism, and held by millions of people - you think all those people will have rushed to the banner of socialism as soon as it was raised? If not the original, non-anticapitalist movement/philosophy lives on to push the idea of social welfare in the future, especially now, as the socialist branch has withered.

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Why do you give all the credit of private ownership to Capitalism when private ownership has been a mainstay of most economic systems other than capitalism?

Right, in a modern economy where there is private ownership I will call that capitalism, and you say 'why not mercantilism, by your logic, as this predates capitalism?' The difference is capitalism succeeded earlier economic systems. Socialism did not succeed progressive, enlightened thought, it only branched from it (in a stupid, anti-capitalist direction). At one time it may have pushed its borrowed ideas for social welfare harder than any other movement, but that doesn't mean it becomes inheritor of the ideas. Especially now that as I say, the branch has withered and it is no longer a political force for good/stupidity.

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You're surprised I ignored that post? Lucky I didn't then isn't it.

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Um no, the modern welfare state comes from the Social Democracy movement, which is socialism that rejected certain ideas of Marx, such as Democracy being bad, and the necessity for state ownership of the means of production.
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Ah yes, how could I forget such a brilliant refutation. No, what you haven't accepted yet is that his argument undermines your position completely as he has traced the idea of social welfare back further than you. You cannot refute him simply by restating and slightly expanding upon your original position - I'm afraid you have to contradict his argument specifically, or else your position falls.

If I submit my own argument crediting social welfare with influences before and apart from socialism, will you flatly declare that to be wrong as well, or actually engage with it?

Heads should roll

JAYNEZTOWN

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