More about sex and Inara
POSTED BY: mal4prez
UPDATED: Saturday, August 1, 2009 19:12
VIEWED: 20411
PAGE 6 of 11
Quote:Wow. Good summation. I picked up on the Inara angsty melodrama in the fic and my interest waned, but I didn't think it through. I think you nailed it. I can't see Inara ever feeling dirty over being a Companion, as if being with Mal means that he would become the sole owner of rights to her body. That goes so against what we've seen of her views of sex.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I didn't agree with the fics, generally, and the second one especially. It paints Inara as a wishy-washy idiot who doesn't know herself and her job enough to make an adult choice about whether SHE thinks she would be betraying Mal - and acting according to that choice. It reads more like a punishment fic than an actual exploration of an Inara who doesn't secretly hate her job all along.
Platonist: Good point re the Guild. Hadn't thought about that. But what do you mean when you say: "I think everyone’s become overly concerned about Inara’s job, except Inara." Color me intrigued.
-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Mal often hurts feelings without intending to. It's pretty much a cornerstone of his relations with women. In fact, Malcolm Reynolds suddenly taking pains to not put any kind of burden on Inara, and being aware of exactly what would burden her, would be quite out of character for him. Not because he intends to do her harm, but because he's not real aware. The man lives in his head quite a bit when it comes to Inara - or why would he have not figured out the kiss in OMR, or why would he have gone and slept with Nandi for Heaven's sake?
Yeah, I can't help but see this picture of suddenly sensitive and aware and unselfish Mal as wishful thinking, and OOC romanticizing. I can't imagine that Nandi's death so instantly transformed him into Aware and Sensitive Guy.
Still, I do agree with you that he's not so insensitive as to bring up Inara's job at that moment, and I tried to be clear that I was talking about his meaning, not his actual spoken words.
Most of the time when Mal hurts people? It's on purpose. He may sometimes underestimate the impact of his words, but he doesn't accidentally say mean things. He's THAT aware.
And it is exactly the kind of sensitivity I see him capable of. Which I really don't see as romantisizing or wishful thinking. I don't see Mal as magically transformed, but at that moment somewhat emotionally removed from his everyday insecurities, which do blind him to seeing what's in front of him most of the time, and which also cause him to lash out at her and others.
And just in case it caused confusion, I don't see him as thinking about all this consciously step-by-step, but just plain instinctively being aware that at that moment - Inara is grieving over a good friend Mal failed to save, and she was NOT glad earlier when he slept with said friend - he should either tell Inara something that won't add heavily to the burden or he should keep his mouth shut.
Quote:Quote:To which I completely agree. But wanting to be with "just plain Inara" doesn't mean that he's declaring his acceptance of her profession, and his willingness to be the long-term lover or husband of a working Companion. I don't think his meaning stretched so far into the future as to imply anything like that.
I think he was about to declare his feelings and hoping to learn what she felt. Looking for a connection, not within a structure of how she should be, but just plain Mal and just plain Inara, as they are.
I agree that at that moment, Mal is hardly thinking about the two of them in long-term scenarios. I doubt he can really imagine them. And likely the issue would have come up in the future - in more or less intense form.
But it also shows Mal's instinct is to seek a connection with her without precondition, as you describe below.
Quote:
I think Mal'd have been overjoyed to cuddle up with Inara (or do more) for some in-the-moment comfort and deal with the complications later, even if "dealing with the complications" meant that the relationship would crash and burn.
I guess that's what I don't really see. The semi-consciously planning for a crash&burn scenario and going for it. Whatever he was going to say, he was likely counting on finishing his speech and Inara replying, and more likely than not, something about her profession and his stated feelings about it would have come up. That's foreseeable even to Mal. So what would his answer have been then.. a shrug? A "No, in that case, better not"? Walk away unburdened and leave her standing there? I don't see Mal starting the conversation in that case. So he must have been open to unconditionally accept her in whatever short-term scenario this conversation might have brought, not with a sure end in sight, but with an openness to what he himself may be capable of.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Which would be more okay than Mal living a less fulfilled life because Inara gets to keep her job?
Less fulfilled? That describes Inara losing her job, it doesn't describe Mal having to live with the woman he loves sleeping with other people - which is more like a stabbing pain to the heart!
I'm trying to highlight the difference in the nature of the sacrifices - you're just trying to equate them. They're both sacrifices all right, Inara loses a job, a way to express her personality; Mal loses his personality, or lives with bitter pain...
Quote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but regardless of whether Mal could accept Inara, you think it would be wrong for him to do so? Because it goes against your personal values?
Nah, none of that sounds like me. I don't believe in right and wrong, I only believe in beauty - I don't like to see beauty crushed. There is beauty in Mal's possessive feelings for Inara - you shouldn't blame him for Joss's diabolical situation-eering which gives Inara a job that stabs him in the heart; but taking away that job is obviously the only way they can be together. There's this idea that companioning is such a noble, spiritual job and that we should all be in awe of it - and Mal shouldn't see it as sex but an amazing spiritual work that Inara does for other people that actually transcends sex, and so he need not really feel jealous. Perhaps this is where we part ways AR, because I haven't bought into this idea yet; but if such a revelation is in store for Mal, good for him.
Quote:
So Mal would prefer absolut monogamy, we can guess that. It doesn't change his nature to consciously sacrifice the fulfillment that preference for the sake of love.
Let me clarify: Mal's way of love is such that Inara's companioning stabs him in the heart. If Mal changes the way he feels towards Inara, such that he doesn't mind her sleeping with other men, he loses a beautiful part of his own soul. I don't know, perhaps I'm being too rigidly romantic in saying it's 'impossible', but it would be sad to see, and if Inara is as fond of Mal's character as I am, she wouldn't be able to do it. I don't think Mal wants to see Inara lobotomised either btw.
Heads should roll
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Gee, I get back and the thread has exploded.
Well, I think that I didn't quite mean what I said as strongly as it's been interpreted about accepting her, occupation and all. Of course Mal's still going to have a problem with it. What I meant is only that he likely was about to express he has feelings for her, and at that time that meant admitting he had feelings even WITH Inara's profession in the equation. For Mal, that isn't a minor step. Before then, he'd been pretending like those feelings weren't there (poorly) behind the disguise of despising her profession.
I think that he was hoping he could put his feelings out there, and that maybe they could figure things out once he had. I interpret his "I'm not asking you for anything" as "I'm not asking you to reciprocate my feelings."
It's not about BURDENING Inara. It's about Mal trying to figure out a solution to what he sees as a problem. That's just the way he operates. Dominant male, comin' through, don't feel bad if you get shot a couple times when ultimately you're going to win the war.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because any man that says 'I accept that my partner sleeps with other people, I'm ok with it, and I actually think I've matured and grown as a person', is not Mal. This is a lobotomised Mal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How so? He slept with Nandi, didn't he? She was no blushing virgin.
I don't think he was ever thinking of beginning a relationship with Nandi, so she was never a partner whom he'd have to share. You're thinking of moralism again, I'm talking about jealousy and other monogamistic feelings.
Quote:
Mal's inability to adjust is not his fault - because his requirements in love are "natural" while Inara's are not? Careful - "natural" is an oft misused concept! (ie: Homosexuality is "unnatural", except in a couple bazillion animals!
Well I certainly didn't say homosexuality is unnatural. I generally believe that anything that manifests widely in society is natural, like monogamy. If in addition there is evolutionary logic behind it, if it resonates with me personally as something beautiful - all the more reason to think so. But this is where I come to impasse with left wing people regularly, who seem to argue that aspects of human society are just arbitrary behaviours that have become entrenched.
But I did pose the Q early on in the discussion whether monogamistic instincts were natural, and I think AR agreed it was to an extent - I wasn't just declaring it so.
Heads should roll
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I don't think monogamy is natural. Most great apes live in colonies where one male has many females around him. The exception is the Bonobo... Who deal with jealousy by having sex helter-skelter to reduce tension. Jealous male? His male rival will sex him up.
I think monogamy is a social institution, invented under a false premise of having to protect women, and also for men to protect something they considered their property. Monogamy is particularly common in desert cultures, where harsh conditions means more competition within a social group, and where careful control on reproduction and offspring numbers is essential to tribal survival. In jungle cultures, relationship boundaries are quite a bit more relaxed.
Guess which climate Christianity/Judaism/Islam, and therefore most western culture stems from? Asian tribes, such as the descendants of Chinese, Japanese, Mongol, etc. are believed to have lived as nomads in arctic deserts, before drifting southward and settling in their current, more tropical climates. Likewise, the people of India seem to have come from the middle east first.
South America has the best historic and modern examples of purely jungle tribe culture.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
You know, something else we haven't asked. How do we KNOW for SURE that Mal would ask Inara to give up her profession?
There are several times that he actually is somewhat protective of it.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:Quote:Wow. Good summation. I picked up on the Inara angsty melodrama in the fic and my interest waned, but I didn't think it through. I think you nailed it. I can't see Inara ever feeling dirty over being a Companion, as if being with Mal means that he would become the sole owner of rights to her body. That goes so against what we've seen of her views of sex.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I didn't agree with the fics, generally, and the second one especially. It paints Inara as a wishy-washy idiot who doesn't know herself and her job enough to make an adult choice about whether SHE thinks she would be betraying Mal - and acting according to that choice. It reads more like a punishment fic than an actual exploration of an Inara who doesn't secretly hate her job all along.
Platonist: Good point re the Guild. Hadn't thought about that. But what do you mean when you say: "I think everyone’s become overly concerned about Inara’s job, except Inara." Color me intrigued.
I don't think that was the point of the second fic at all. Inara's disturbance was knowing just how much her actions continue to hurt Mal, not that she thought he'd suddenly become sole owner of her body.
Besides, I never said I agreed with the second fic, only that I thought that it showed Inara in a relationship with Mal and not lobotomized. She still has conflicts and concerns, even though she has everything theoretically that she could want.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:So he called Kaylee a sheep walking on its hind legs on purpose, to hurt her? So he slept with Nandi intentionally to hurt Inara? I don't think so. I think he generally goes about his business, doing his best, but screws up.
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Most of the time when Mal hurts people? It's on purpose. He may sometimes underestimate the impact of his words, but he doesn't accidentally say mean things. He's THAT aware.
He is intentionally mean to Inara sometimes, but I think that's a different kind of intentional. That ol' defense mechanism. I don't think he's consciously aware of what he's doing, and he's not out to hurt her as much as he wants to protect himself. Because the silly guy really is unaware that she feels for him at all. I think that's the basis of his distrust of her - not that she has sex with clients, but that she somehow fools them into caring for her. Mal doesn't want to be just another fool on a long list.
Quote:Surely, you and I can see that. But just because Mal *should* take an action doesn't mean he intends to do it. Really, how often does Mal do what is best and proper? And remember - Inara sets him a'whirl, etc. She doesn't bring out his logical side.
And just in case it caused confusion, I don't see him as thinking about all this consciously step-by-step, but just plain instinctively being aware that at that moment - Inara is grieving over a good friend Mal failed to save, and she was NOT glad earlier when he slept with said friend - he should either tell Inara something that won't add heavily to the burden or he should keep his mouth shut.
Anyway, I don't think Mal wanted to make the admission purely to comfort Inara. Watch him in the scene - he takes the fact that Inara was upset about him sleeping with Nandi as an opening, a reason to come clean. He first asks: So you weren't glad before? Inara doesn't deny it, so he starts talking.
While he talks, he barely looks at Inara. He's not studying her face to see if his words are welcome and helpful. His focus is on the ground, his thoughts inward. Hardly the actions of a man whose sole interest is to remove burdens. Mal wants to tell the truth, and feels somewhat safe doing it because of Inara's jealousy.
He thinks he'll get a positive return, at very least an admission that she feels something too, so that even if nothing ever comes of it at least it's out there in the open and they don't have to dance around it anymore. I think that's as far as his intentions go.
Quote:But I don't think he was *planning* for the crash and burn. I think he was just ignoring the potential downfall and going for it when he saw a opening. That's pretty much the way he lives his life, right? Job to job. Do what's in front of you and let the future take care of itself.
I guess that's what I don't really see. The semi-consciously planning for a crash&burn scenario and going for it.
And if she did bring up her profession, as he might have been expecting, he might just say: "But you feel it too? There's something between us?" and if he got a nod that'd be all he was after. He could accept her refusal and walk away. After all, he's not asking for anything from her, right? All he wants is for her to hear him. Which she refuses to do. (*sigh* Poor Mal!)
-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
KPO -
Quote:
Perhaps this is where we part ways AR, because I haven't bought into this idea yet; but if such a revelation is in store for Mal, good for him.
Perhaps we'll agree to disagree here, yes. Thank you for the discussion.
Bytemite -
Quote:
I don't think monogamy is natural.
That entire post was very interesting and informative! Also, hits the nail on the head.
Quote:
I don't think that was the point of the second fic at all. Inara's disturbance was knowing just how much her actions continue to hurt Mal, not that she thought he'd suddenly become sole owner of her body.
Besides, I never said I agreed with the second fic, only that I thought that it showed Inara in a relationship with Mal and not lobotomized. She still has conflicts and concerns, even though she has everything theoretically that she could want.
But if the scenario seems out of character to me, I can disagree about using it as an illustrative example, right?
Mal4Prez -
Quote:
So he called Kaylee a sheep walking on its hind legs on purpose, to hurt her? So he slept with Nandi intentionally to hurt Inara? I don't think so. I think he generally goes about his business, doing his best, but screws up.
Saying what he did to Kaylee was certainly not meant to be nice. He underestimated how it would hit Kaylee, but he WAS certainly lashing out at her. Like he often does with Inara, as well. That he sometimes looks sorry afterwards doesn't really clear him of mean-spirited intentions beforehand.
Sleeping with Nandi was an exception, where it was indeed unintentional.
Quote:
I don't think he's consciously aware of what he's doing, and he's not out to hurt her as much as he wants to protect himself.
I don't think Mal is so dense that he doesn't realize that his slights cut Inara. Witness his indirect apology in the pilot ep. It's something he knows he does and keeps doing, not a sleep-walking accident he never registers. As with Kaylee, the depth of the impact is hidden from him by his own insecure blindness, but not the entirety of his own actions.
As for the rest of your post... I'm sure we're not actually that far apart in our opinions, but I just don't see Mal as quite so short-sighted a happy-go-lucky guy as you, who doesn't consider even a shot-term impact of his declaration. I also don't see him as quite so unprotective and unsensitive to Inara's feelings as you do. After all, they would have to live on the ship together afterwards. Yes, he's expecting something of a positive response, but I think he was expecting the two of them to actually talk about it, not put it on the table to stay there like a now-visible elephant in the room. Hardly less awkward than not talking about it. So I think at that moment Mal was at least theoretically open to trying something with Inara, not by ignoring her profession and its implications, but by being open about it.
I get the impression that this aspect of the discussion is nearing the "agreeing to disagree" zone.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME