More about sex and Inara

POSTED BY: mal4prez
UPDATED: Saturday, August 1, 2009 19:12
VIEWED: 20411
PAGE 5 of 11

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 NEXT PAGE

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 5:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
I think the best Mal can do is acknowledge the sacrifice, if Inara is prepared to make it. Undoubtedly it's Mal's hang up, and Inara's sacrifice.

Obviously, looking at other postes in this thread, it is doubted.

I don't think it's the best Mal can do. I think it's the very, very least Mal can do, as in littlest effort possibly made.

Quote:
But it's not an unreasonable hang up, Mal doesn't need to 'grow' or be enlightened in any way, and we shouldn't want to lobotomise him or change him into a more modern and 'open-minded' alliance planet guy.

I guess that's where we part ways, as well.

I think Mal has some sincere growing to do. He's far from perfect, domineering and deeply emotionally insecure. The entire way he is acting with Inara is deeply juvenile (she is, too.), which is cute to watch but not exactly healthy for either of them. Mal opening himself up to for once take a step down and try to adjust to someone else, as opposed to "My ship, my rules!" and being confrontational with every other person on the planet... well, it would be growth toward greater maturity.

And where do you get this idea from that Mal accepting Inara is supposed to be the icon of modernism and equals Alliance? Who here declared that most Alliance men would be fine with this? No one. It's, and I've said this before, not about conforming to some standard, it's about an individual solution for both of them.

In the same way, why would you want to change Inara into a "less modern", to use your terms, and more "Rim world" woman? Because you can understand Mal's side of things but not understand Inara's? Is it that easy for you?

Quote:

AR,

Quote:
What about the way Inara feeling forced to give up her job would taint and diminish their love? Just as destructive.

Fair point, there is opportunity for resentment there - it depends on how Mal acts, whether he appreciates the sacrifice; and circumstance - whether Inara is able to find another calling in life that will compensate her lost one.

You always describe Inara's feelings about her job as replacable. Why don't you try to make the leap toward Mal making the conscious choice to replace his traditional expectations with new ones? You seem to see this as an impossibility, yet you talk about finding a new "calling" as though it were that easy. it diminishes the sacrifice you're asking of her, indeed.

Quote:

I think if I were to write a fic on this I would consider one set at some point in the future where Mal and the firefly crew have enjoyed good times financially and it becomes time to start thinking about settling down into a more peaceful and stable way of life. Mal would be reluctant to give up his life on Serenity but he realises he now probably owes it to Inara and the kids, after she made the sacrifice before.

Big sacrifice, if money and advancing age and CHILDREN make it almost a necessity. Besides, we don't know if Inara wants to settle down somewhere, or where. A nice little farm, where she would be just as out of place as she would be jobless on Serenity? Where's the benefit for Inara? I don't see one. Seems like a pointless non-sacrifice if it doesn't consider what Inara would want out of life. How about she gets to do her job while he gets to do his and when they settle down, they both give up their former lives?

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 2:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Originally, I was only going to post the first one, because I think it's the best too.

Oh, I think the second fic had good plottiness, it just had more melodrama which I liked less. The simplicity and brevity of the Mal POV fic was quite nice. (Says the author of a gazillion word fic that still hasn't gotten to the damned point LOL!)

Quote:
AR and I both like to use this point, but in HoG, Mal was ABOUT to accept Inara, complete with profession, before she pushed him away again.

Whoa - complete with profession? Says who? Sure enough, he was about to say he felt something for her, but there's nothing to suggest he meant to offer full acceptance of her job. Could well be that his message would have been: Dammit, I don't like what you do and can't see how anything could really work between us, but I got these feelings and I'm all moody and just can't keep quiet anymore...

I'm not saying that was his intent, only that you're making a big assumption. He was ready to own up to being attracted to her, profession and all, but that doesn't mean full acceptance.

KPO said: "When I said 'in some people's eyes', I meant Mal's. I think that's who he is; it just comes with his old fashioned nobility and chivalry, and his simple, earthy nature."

And I'm asking why you see him that way. As Bytemite points out, Mal clearly has problems with intimacy. There's plenty in the show to back that up. But intimacy and sex are not the same thing.

So what are his problems with sex? Does he really have problems with it? What I was hinting at wasn't male pride, I was trying to get at the root of this idea that Mal believes in strict monogamy and puts almost puritanical limits on sex. What proof of this is there in the show?

I would argue that it's pretty much the opposite - he's accepting of sex, even as a business trade. His "whore" name-calling of Inara seems a defense mechanism to piss her off and keep her at a distance, because when she's not around he's quite respectful of her. He's also pretty friendly with other whores, has no problem with Kaylee's method of joining the crew, doesn't try to control Jayne, doesn't even warn Simon off of Kaylee when he finds them all cuddled up and hungover. Mal has sex with Nandi and would have done it with Saffron too. In fact, his hang up with Saffron was based in his belief that she wasn't empowered and aware of what she was doing. It had nothing to do with a fear that sex belonged only in monogamous marriage.

So really, I'm with AR and Bytemite in the idea that Mal's problem is with emotional intimacy. I don't think he's hung up with sex, and I don't think the basis of his problem with Inara is her multitude of sexual partners.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 3:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:

So really, I'm with AR and Bytemite in the idea that Mal's problem is with emotional intimacy. I don't think he's hung up with sex, and I don't think the basis of his problem with Inara is her multitude of sexual partners.

Just pointing out here that I'm not in 100% agreement with M4P.

While I agree that Mal is NOT interested in suppressing other people's sexuality, I absolutely see him as personally sexually repressed. He's quite passive about sex, and not at all light-hearted. To be honest, I'm still not sure whether he would have really gone through with sleeping with Saffron. I'm on the fence about it. Either way, he's more on the old-fashioned, traditional side than, say, Wash.

I do agree that Mal's general problem with Inara is his own intimacy issues. That's what is holding him back, not her job or her background.

However, I absolutely do see where KPO is coming from in terms of Mal struggling with a traditional definition of monogamy in relation to Inara's job. Where I disagree with him is Mal's ability to overcome it through really reflecting on what Inara's job entails - and what not - and letting go of some of his own expectations, just like Inara would.

In terms of the HoG aborted declaration.. open to some interpretation, sure. But a speech starting with "I'm not looking for anything from you. I'm just just feeling kind of truthsome right now. Life is too short for ifs and maybes." - would that lead to "I like you. But your jobs means we can never be together. Just wanted to let you know"? Just lob it at her feet like that to sort through, as if that would actually solve anything?

Throwing it out there with an in-built caveat would just lead to more confusion, ifs and maybes and pain. I don't see him going for such a monumental step, at such a painful time, unless he was truly open to Inara-as-she-is. Maybe not with a plan for the future, but open to her and open to whatever this declaration might bring for them.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
While I agree that Mal is NOT interested in suppressing other people's sexuality, I absolutely see him as personally sexually repressed.

I don't mean to say that he's all into casual sex and multiple partnerships or something. Swinger Mal - NOT! But I think his own shyness about sex is due in some part to his emotional limits, and not just adherence to the "traditional ways".

So I think it's an oversimplification to suppose that if Inara would only stop sleeping around they'd be hunky dory. OK, no one on this thread is being that extreme, but I think the idea is out there. There is a tendency to put SEX SEX SEX first when maybe the physical act is a minor part of what these two would need to sort out.

Of course, that's my own bias showing - I think Americans are so puritanically repressed that we put sex before every damned thing! (You can beat me up and take my paycheck, but as long as you don't sleep around I know you love me...)

Quote:
I do agree that Mal's general problem with Inara is his own intimacy issues. That's what is holding him back, not her job or her background.

LOL! Exactly what I mean in many fewer words!

Quote:
Just lob it at her feet like that to sort through, as if that would actually solve anything?

Absolutely I think he would have done that. As you quoted - he told her that's exactly what he was doing. He was going for truthfulness without any definition of the future, of his expectations. This wasn't an attempt to solve anything. He wanted to unburden himself, have things out in the open. That's it.

Maybe it does show that he was willing to try working out whatever it was he had issues with, but it does not mean he believed there to be no issues, and doesn't mean that he was willing to take her as she was.

In fact: "I'm not looking for anything from you" is hardly a statement from an open, accepting mind! Perhaps he meant "I'm not looking for you to give up your job so we can be together, but I have to tell you how I feel..." (Again, not saying that's what he meant, but it's a possibility, right?)

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 5:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Just lob it at her feet like that to sort through, as if that would actually solve anything?
Absolutely I think he would have done that. As you quoted - he told her that's exactly what he was doing. He was going for truthfulness without any definition of the future, of his expectations. This wasn't an attempt to solve anything. He wanted to unburden himself, have things out in the open. That's it.

Maybe it does show that he was willing to try working out whatever it was he had issues with, but it does not mean he believed there to be no issues, and doesn't mean that he was willing to take her as she was.

In fact: "I'm not looking for anything from you" is hardly a statement from an open, accepting mind! Perhaps he meant "I'm not looking for you to give up your job so we can be together, but I have to tell you how I feel..." (Again, not saying that's what he meant, but it's a possibility, right?)

I guess at that moment in the series I don't see Mal in the mental position to unburden himself at the expense of Inara (so to speak). He feels a lot of guilt about failing Nandi (and Inara) and he has to be aware of the fact that declaring his feelings with the same old "but your job is a problem" issue attached that he's been throwing at her since they met.. well, it would maybe unburden him but do nothing BUT burden Inara. In fact, it would hardly be a revelation at all, since there have been hints from him in the past, and he likely suspects that Inara knows about his attraction to her. So I see no sense in his declaring anything unless it is to actually say something new.

At that moment, Mal is about as vulnerable, open and uncombative as we have ever seen him. Clinging to Serenity with his hands, deeply nervous, but brave at the same time.

I cannot for the life of me imagine his planned words there to be so short-sighted that he would be attempting to burden her with his feelings+rejection, rather than attempting to give her something, burden-free.

I am NOT saying Mal was about to say "Yay, go sleep with people, I'll keep your bed warm! Happy end!"

I think he was about to declare his feelings and hoping to learn what she felt. Looking for a connection, not within a structure of how she should be, but just plain Mal and just plain Inara, as they are. Their complications are readily apparent, he doesn't need to make a speech about them. I think it makes more sense that Mal was trying to say something that was uncomplicated.

Hell, at this point, I doubt Mal has the capacity to imagine a stable, long-term relationship between them. I think if given the opportunity at that moment, he would have accepted an offer of intimacy (emotional and physical) from Inara unconditionally, without thoughts of the future. Accepting her as she is.

KPO

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 5:07 PM

Quote:
I don't think it's the best Mal can do. I think it's the very, very least Mal can do, as in littlest effort possibly made.

Perhaps, but it's still the best he can do. What did you think of the second fic AR? Mal trying to do more to make an inviable relationship work means just more hurt and regret for both of them. I'm asking for a big sacrifice from Inara, you're asking for an impossible sacrifice from Mal, in my view.

Quote:
Obviously, looking at other postes in this thread, it is doubted.

Don't get me wrong, It's Mal's 'hang up', but not his fault. I simply think Inara's job is incompatible with a partner who has a very typical and very natural way of loving another person.

Quote:
In the same way, why would you want to change Inara into a "less modern", to use your terms, and more "Rim world" woman?

Inara can stay who she is, she's not lobotomised like 'I'm happier this way, now I've been rescued from my dirty former career' - no, she retains her personality but of course, is less fulfilled in it (depending on circumstance).

Quote:
Why don't you try to make the leap toward Mal making the conscious choice to replace his traditional expectations with new ones? You seem to see this as an impossibility

Because I don't see it as like a 'major cultural adjustment'. The way he loves Inara is natural, not cultural (or natural first, cultural second). You're changing his nature in my view.

Mal4prez,

Quote:
KPO said: "When I said 'in some people's eyes', I meant Mal's. I think that's who he is; it just comes with his old fashioned nobility and chivalry, and his simple, earthy nature."

And I'm asking why you see him that way.

Because any man that says 'I accept that my partner sleeps with other people, I'm ok with it, and I actually think I've matured and grown as a person', is not Mal. This is a lobotomised Mal.

I'm not arguing that Mal is moralistic, I agree that he's not hung up about sex. But your partner having sex with other people is another matter. Emotional intimacy issues? Probably, but do we need special psychology to explain why a person isn't happy for their partner to sleep with other people? I don't know, as I say I think some people can be too enlightened.

Heads should roll

AGENTROUKA

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 5:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
I don't think it's the best Mal can do. I think it's the very, very least Mal can do, as in littlest effort possibly made.

Perhaps, but it's still the best he can do.

Or rather, is willing to do, which is really the point. You say Mal would be unwilling to even attempt to change his position - and that he would be right to. I disagree and say this is a closed-minded view born out of the tradition that women are the ones to do the sacrificing for a relationship. I say this because you consistently rate Inara's expected sacrifice as lesser than Mal's.

Quote:
What did you think of the second fic AR? Mal trying to do more to make an inviable relationship work means just more hurt and regret for both of them.

I didn't agree with the fics, generally, and the second one especially. It paints Inara as a wishy-washy idiot who doesn't know herself and her job enough to make an adult choice about whether SHE thinks she would be betraying Mal - and acting according to that choice. It reads more like a punishment fic than an actual exploration of an Inara who doesn't secretly hate her job all along.

They don't add anything valuable to the discussion at all, in my mind, other than to provide an example for a writer projecting their own negative feelings onto the character - which would be especially in keeping with M4P's original points about sanitizing Inara.

Quote:

I'm asking for a big sacrifice from Inara, you're asking for an impossible sacrifice from Mal, in my view.

I'm declaring that it's not an impossible one for Mal, actually.

Quote:

Quote:
Obviously, looking at other postes in this thread, it is doubted.

Don't get me wrong, Mal's 'hang up' but not his fault. I simply think Inara's job is incompatible with a partner who has a very typical and very natural way of loving another person.

"Typical" I can buy, but natural? Mal is a product of his upbringing, and so many of the things we do socially subvert some of our "natural" tendencies, such as controlling violent impulses, respecting property, etc.

Do you think people who live in multiple partner relationships are "unnatural"?

I keep getting the feeling that you aren't just arguing out of Mal's character but out of your personal values. Correct me if I am wrong, but regardless of whether Mal could accept Inara, you think it would be wrong for him to do so? Because it goes against your personal values?

Quote:

Quote:
In the same way, why would you want to change Inara into a "less modern", to use your terms, and more "Rim world" woman?

Inara can stay who she is, she's not lobotomised like 'I'm happier this way, now I've been rescued from my dirty former career' - no, she retains her personality but is less fulfilled in it (depending on circumstance).

Which would be more okay than Mal living a less fulfilled life because Inara gets to keep her job?

Quote:

Quote:
Why don't you try to make the leap toward Mal making the conscious choice to replace his traditional expectations with new ones? You seem to see this as an impossibility

Because I don't see it as like a 'major cultural adjustment'. The way he loves Inara is natural, not cultural (or natural first, cultural second). You're changing his nature, in my view.

So Mal not accepting Inara is good because it is "natural"? All love is natural. How we treat each other is generally cultural, though, be that Mal's expectations or Inara's. There is nothing more natural in Mal's wish for absolut monogamy than would be in another person's for multiple-partner love.

So Mal would prefer absolut monogamy, we can guess that. It doesn't change his nature to consciously sacrifice the fulfillment that preference for the sake of love. It is no more impossible than to ask Inara to give up her life's work and beloved profession - I say, it is less damaging for them both, even, because Inara would

PLATONIST

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:28 PM

This is all very fascinating, but I think the Guild may frown on Companions having emotional entanglements, i.e., lovers, spouses, etc, because of the complications that may arise, which everyone has stated so eloquently here. Click on her labor contract,

http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=4&t=38162

They are both aware that in order to be together she would have to retire her contract. Maybe she was training that army of new recruits to take her place;) because she was losing her professional objectivity, see Better Days for that.

And that’s possibly why Mal says “I’m not looking for anything from you”, because he’s not willing to break the contract they have.

As much as he hates her job, he respects her enough to let it be her decision, independent woman and all, and that’s why he lets her leave, not wanting to ruin her career that she doesn’t seem all that concerned about because she wants to be invited to stay.

I think everyone’s become overly concerned about Inara’s job, except Inara.

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I guess at that moment in the series I don't see Mal in the mental position to unburden himself at the expense of Inara (so to speak).

Wow, I'm a little surprised you're saying this! Am I interpreting your meaning wrong?

Mal often hurts feelings without intending to. It's pretty much a cornerstone of his relations with women. In fact, Malcolm Reynolds suddenly taking pains to not put any kind of burden on Inara, and being aware of exactly what would burden her, would be quite out of character for him. Not because he intends to do her harm, but because he's not real aware. The man lives in his head quite a bit when it comes to Inara - or why would he have not figured out the kiss in OMR, or why would he have gone and slept with Nandi for Heaven's sake?

Yeah, I can't help but see this picture of suddenly sensitive and aware and unselfish Mal as wishful thinking, and OOC romanticizing. I can't imagine that Nandi's death so instantly transformed him into Aware and Sensitive Guy.

Still, I do agree with you that he's not so insensitive as to bring up Inara's job at that moment, and I tried to be clear that I was talking about his meaning, not his actual spoken words. Guess I should have been clearer about that! I think his reservations would have been there and showed in his implied meaning, ie the "I'm not asking for anything from you" line. But I don't think he would have brought her job up specifically. He's not that callous, and he's smart enough to know that'd just lead to a fight. He certainly wasn't out for a fight.

Quote:
I think he was about to declare his feelings and hoping to learn what she felt. Looking for a connection, not within a structure of how she should be, but just plain Mal and just plain Inara, as they are.

To which I completely agree. But wanting to be with "just plain Inara" doesn't mean that he's declaring his acceptance of her profession, and his willingness to be the long-term lover or husband of a working Companion. I don't think his meaning stretched so far into the future as to imply anything like that.

I think Mal'd have been overjoyed to cuddle up with Inara (or do more

) for some in-the-moment comfort and deal with the complications later, even if "dealing with the complications" meant that the relationship would crash and burn. Which is what I mean when I say that declaring his feelings did not at all mean full acceptance of her profession. That issue would still have been out there, to be dealt with when they could no longer ignore it.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

MAL4PREZ

Wednesday, June 24, 2009 8:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Don't get me wrong, It's Mal's 'hang up', but not his fault. I simply think Inara's job is incompatible with a partner who has a very typical and very natural way of loving another person.

Yeppers. Methinks some bias is showing.

Mal's inability to adjust is not his fault - because his requirements in love are "natural" while Inara's are not? Careful - "natural" is an oft misused concept! (ie: Homosexuality is "unnatural", except in a couple bazillion animals! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_beh
avior)

Seriously, I don't disagree with your point completely, but I'd be much more convinced if you argued with actual behavior of Mal's, rather than saying it's in "some people's eyes" or "natural" or "typical". Goodness - why in the world would Mal limit his behavior to that which is "typical"? I haven't seen any of that in his character!

Quote:
Because any man that says 'I accept that my partner sleeps with other people, I'm ok with it, and I actually think I've matured and grown as a person', is not Mal. This is a lobotomised Mal.

How so? He slept with Nandi, didn't he? She was no blushing virgin.

Anyway, I never said that being in a sexually open relationship is any way mature. It has nothing to do with enlightenment, it's about Mal's particular situation. He's made tough choices before. He'll plug his nose and work with evil gangsters or even the Alliance when it's the most productive thing to do. Clearly, he's open to acting against what he'd like best. So, given a choice between a life with a woman he loves and a continued existence alone, he might be willing to make sacrifices. Not because it's natural, but because life and love are imperfect and he knows it.

-----------------------------------------------
hmm-burble-blah, blah-blah-blah, take a left

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 NEXT PAGE