Obama's speech in Cairo

POSTED BY: Skywalken
UPDATED: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 16:21
VIEWED: 3200
PAGE 1 of 1

SKYWALKEN

Thursday, June 4, 2009 9:34 PM

Here's an assessment of it:

Quote:
President Obama's speech in Cairo was historic. No other President has gone to a foreign nation to so publicly throw a strong ally under the bus. Once again the President, pandered to the Muslim world by dissing Israel in a major way, he downplayed the role of terrorism, made Hamas look like a rowdy Boys Glee Club, called for the internationalization of Jerusalem, and used the Palestinian party line to describe the Israeli presence not only in the West Bank and Gaza but its VERY existence at all:

He started his Israel/Palestinian discussion by talking about the Holocaust and Anti-Semitism:

The second major source of tension that we need to discuss is the situation between Israelis, Palestinians and the Arab world.

America's strong bonds with Israel are well known. This bond is unbreakable. It is based upon cultural and historical ties, and the recognition that the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is rooted in a tragic history that cannot be denied.

Around the world, the Jewish people were persecuted for centuries, and anti-Semitism in Europe culminated in an unprecedented Holocaust. Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of camps where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and gassed to death by the Third Reich. Six million Jews were killed - more than the entire Jewish population of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, ignorant, and hateful. Threatening Israel with destruction - or repeating vile stereotypes about Jews - is deeply wrong, and only serves to evoke in the minds of Israelis this most painful of memories while preventing the peace that the people of this region deserve.

You notice that how he discusses Anti-Semitism, without mentioning the fact that the Muslim Middle East is the major supplier of Anti-Semitic fervor in the world.

Obama then goes on to talk about the 60+ years of Palestinian suffering, taking the Palestinian view that the very creation of Israel was bad. He mixes the "Christian" Palestinians with the Muslim ones, ignoring the horrible persecution of Palestinian Christians by their Muslim neighbors. Obama also discusses Gaza as an occupied territory. Er..Mr. President maybe you didn't read the newspapers in August 2005, but Israel pulled out of Gaza almost four years ago. I know--I was in Jerusalem at the time.

On the other hand, it is also undeniable that the Palestinian people - Muslims and Christians - have suffered in pursuit of a homeland. For more than sixty years they have endured the pain of dislocation. Many wait in refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, and neighboring lands for a life of peace and security that they have never been able to lead. They endure the daily humiliations - large and small - that come with occupation. So let there be no doubt: the situation for the Palestinian people is intolerable. America will not turn our backs on the legitimate Palestinian aspiration for dignity, opportunity, and a state of their own.

Obama also forgot to mention the role of Egypt and Jordan in making sure that the Palestinians stayed in camps and the fact that there were more Jews thrown out of Muslim countries in 1948 than Arabs leaving Israel. A mistake he repeats below:

For decades, there has been a stalemate: two peoples with legitimate aspirations, each with a painful history that makes compromise elusive. It is easy to point fingers - for Palestinians to point to the displacement brought by Israel's founding, and for Israelis to point to the constant hostility and attacks throughout its history from within its borders as well as beyond. But if we see this conflict only from one side or the other, then we will be blind to the truth: the only resolution is for the aspirations of both sides to be met through two states, where Israelis and Palestinians each live in peace and security.

Displacement? I am surprised he didn't use the word nabka (catastrophe) that's what the Muslims call it. Again accepting Muslim propaganda, the President doesn't make the point that the

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FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, June 4, 2009 10:54 PM

Oh please, it's not like EVERYONE ELSE ON THE PLANET not only knows that Israel as a country is acting like a mentally and emotionally damaged child unknowingly emulating their abuser in adulthood (i.e. The fekkin Nazis) but unlike us most of them are willing to CALL them on it.

Ally my *ass* - if any other nation did HALF the shit they've pulled to us, and that's just counting the stuff we know about, that they admitted to, we'd be at war with them - they are the primary recipient of foreign aid, 31% of the total, millions of OUR TAX DOLLARS, not to mention loads and loads of military equipment at pennies on the dollar - which they use in terror campaigns against other countries who're quite rightfully pissed about it, they use to commit sabotage and espionage against us, their so-called allies, up to and including subversion of our political process by buying off and/or blackmailing our own politicians to bend OUR Government to their whim and pour MORE of our tax money down a freakin rathole when all we get for it is espionage, sabotage, propagana, backstabbing and hatred cause we're not proper zionstas and therefore somehow "inferior" ?

Fuck em, they DESERVE to be thrown under the bus if not worse - maybe if they didn't treat Palestine exactly like Hitler treated Poland, there might be an ounce of sympathy, maybe if they didn't spend so much time fucking us over EVERY CHANCE THEY GET, there might be some commiseration...

But no, they chose to act in the fashion they have for no better reason that they can do it, get away with it, and the primary world power for the moment is unwilling to make an issue of it, even supports it - despite the fact that they're a fuckin parasite offering no benefit to us and only misery.

Tell me, do you feel sorry for a bloodsucking tick likely to give ya lyme disease when you get the damn thing to let go ?
No, and often as not you kill the goddamn thing out of spite too, something Israel should really start thinkin about when Americans as a whole are finally realizing this "ally" is nothing of the sort.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

SIGNYM

Thursday, June 4, 2009 11:07 PM

Amen Frem.

No sympathy here for poow wittle Iswael.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

BYTEMITE

Thursday, June 4, 2009 11:16 PM

Finally, something Obama is keeping his promises on. Of course, he's probably going to break them the next week... Hey, maybe we'll invade Pakistan. The Middle East will LOVE that.

If we ever want peace between Muslims and Isreal, then yes, eventually, we have to reach out to the Muslims. That doesn't mean we have to turn our backs on Isreal, it's not ONE or the OTHER.

Apparently the speech had omissions on the part of what Hamas and Muslims have done to Isreal. I can understand people being upset about that, or as seeing the debate as being misconstrued or skewed, spinned, twisted, whatever you want to call it.

But heck, just recognizing that Isreal has done crap to Muslims instead of just turning a blind eye because they're our propped up puppet government ally in the Middle East is a positive step towards peace, in my book. If Muslims hear the President addressing their concerns and beliefs with an open mind, they'll feel more likely they'll be listened to, and more willing to cooperate.

And if they're more willing to cooperate, there's fewer dead Isreali and Muslim families.

He talked about the holocaust and put down all those hurtful assertations that it never happened, in a way that Muslims hopefully will listen to. And he talked about Hamas as he would talk about a legally elected government that he would like to try to enter into peace negotiations with.

The truth is, the creation of Isreal WAS hastily done, and we did so during an unruly time in the Middle East that we CAUSED to be unstable post WWI. And that the creation of Isreal only destabilized the area and situation further. Now that Isreal is there, we have an obligation to keep the people of Isreal from being killed, and placating the people who want to kill them goes a long way.

Quite frankly, that blogger writing the editorial and making all those accusations about Obama's agenda is a pro-Isreal nationalist, NOT pro-Isreal. Isreal doesn't need to keep up a pissing match with the Muslim world, it needs peace.

KWICKO

Thursday, June 4, 2009 11:21 PM

ByteMite, you sound like a commie...

[Please know that I'm joking.]

Skywalken, you have no opinions of your own on this?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

KWICKO

Thursday, June 4, 2009 11:54 PM

Here's MY assessment of it:

Quote:
President Obama's speech in Cairo was historic. No other President has gone to a foreign nation to so publicly throw a strong ally under the bus. Once again the President, pandered to the Muslim world by dissing Israel in a major way, he downplayed the role of terrorism, made Hamas look like a rowdy Boys Glee Club...

Hey - now if only they'd subject some people to their own special versions of "harmless fraternity pranks", they'd be welcomed and accepted by Bush and his crowd of ivory-tower ivy-league elitists!

Quote:

...called for the internationalization of Jerusalem, and used the Palestinian party line to describe the Israeli presence not only in the West Bank and Gaza but its VERY existence at all:

He started his Israel/Palestinian discussion by talking about the Holocaust and Anti-Semitism:

The second major source of tension that we need to discuss is the situation between Israelis, Palestinians and the Arab world.

America's strong bonds with Israel are well known. This bond is unbreakable. It is based upon cultural and historical ties, and the recognition that the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is rooted in a tragic history that cannot be denied.

Around the world, the Jewish people were persecuted for centuries, and anti-Semitism in Europe culminated in an unprecedented Holocaust. Tomorrow, I will visit Buchenwald, which was part of a network of camps where Jews were enslaved, tortured, shot and gassed to death by the Third Reich. Six million Jews were killed - more than the entire Jewish population of Israel today. Denying that fact is baseless, ignorant, and hateful. Threatening Israel with destruction - or repeating vile stereotypes about Jews - is deeply wrong, and only serves to evoke in the minds of Israelis this most painful of memories while preventing the peace that the people of this region deserve.

You notice that how he discusses Anti-Semitism, without mentioning the fact that the Muslim Middle East is the major supplier of Anti-Semitic fervor in the world.

Yes, it's ALWAYS a good idea to insult your host while you're trying to reach out to them to begin having a substantive relationship and a rational debate. Browbeating them has NEVER yielded negative results...

Quote:

Obama then goes on to talk about the 60+ years of Palestinian suffering, taking the Palestinian view that the very creation of Israel was bad. He mixes the "Christian" Palestinians with the Muslim ones, ignoring the horrible persecution of Palestinian Christians by their Muslim neighbors.

As Geezer would say, I suppose you have cites to back up any of this? No? I thought not.

Quote:
Obama also discusses Gaza as an occupied territory. Er..Mr. President maybe you didn't read the newspapers in August 2005, but Israel pulled out of Gaza almost four years ago. I know--I was in Jerusalem at the time.

Guess you must not have been there last summer, when they went back in, bombs and rockets blazing. Seems like it was in the papers.

Quote:

On the other hand, it is also undeniable that the Palestinian people - Muslims and Christians - have suffered in pursuit of a homeland. For more than sixty years they have endured the pain of dislocation. Many wait in refugee camps in the West Bank, Gaza, and neighboring lands for a life of peace and security that they have never been able to lead. They endure the daily humiliations - large and small - that come with occupation. So let there be no doubt: the situation for the Palestinian people is intolerable. America will not turn our backs on the legitimate Palestinian aspiration for dignity, opportunity, and a state of their own.

So what is it exactly that you find factually inaccurate here? Are you saying the Palestinians were NOT dislocated more than 60 years ago? Is your point that they AREN'T waiting in refugee camps? They DON'T endure humiliation?

Quote:

Obama also forgot to mention the role of Egypt and Jordan in making sure that the Palestinians s

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GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, June 5, 2009 1:52 AM

Israel has been a prime obstacle to peace for years, not only in their own varied conflicts but they also stuck their noses into other problems in order to make cash to finance their own misdeeds.

Supplying arms and training to both sides of the Sri Lanka civil war ( at the same time ) being one example.

Any peace, will need to take into consideration of the ethnic cleansing etc in Israels history. Recognition and acknowledgment is a great start.

It is kinda refreshing to hear an American ( particularly an American leader ) admit mistake have and are being made.

Obama is likely on borrowed time now, sadly

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

SKYWALKEN

Friday, June 5, 2009 3:24 AM

As a card-carrying proud Zionist I want to thank all the people posting anti-Israel comments. We need to be reminded every once and a while that Nazism still lives and that it primarily lives on the left of the political spectrum.

BYTEMITE

Friday, June 5, 2009 4:36 AM

Hi strawman, it's nice to meet you.

Of course, since you're just going to be outraged, make baseless accusations, demonize any opposing viewpoint, and not really listen to anything I have to say, I can see there's no reason for my saying anything else.

But I hope you realize that you're only promoting viewpoints and international policy that will just end up with MORE Jewish people being killed.

AGENTROUKA

Friday, June 5, 2009 4:56 AM

Where do people get this thing from that criticising Israel is the exact same thing as anti-semitism?

Israel is a country, a political entity, that happens to be closely affiliated with Judaism. It's entirely possible to critisize this political entity's actions without a shred of blind hatred for Jewish people being involved.

Invoking the Nazi/anti-semitism card is just cowardly.

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, June 5, 2009 5:07 AM

Oh neat, a real Zionista, just wait till PN spots that, that'll be fun.

Bet your real proud of your proud Irgun forefathers and their brave practices of murdering women and children too.

The irony of a damn Irgun-Herut-Likud-Zionista punk calling anyone ELSE a terrorist is not at all lost on me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

-F

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, June 5, 2009 5:44 AM

I have opinions here, but a open mind,

yet nobody is even trying to change it here...

Funny how Israel supporters try to run on only emotion, not fact... they seem to try to avoid fact

come on Skywalken...

at least Rap would have at least tried

( not with facts, but he would have tried )

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

KWICKO

Friday, June 5, 2009 11:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skywalken:
As a card-carrying proud Zionist I want to thank all the people posting anti-Israel comments. We need to be reminded every once and a while that Nazism still lives and that primarily lives on the left of the political spectrum.

Oh, goodie - now I'm a Nazi!

SkyNazi, a person CAN criticize Israel's actions without becoming a Nazi. Just look at the Israelis themselves - about half of them at any given time are unhappy with the actions of their government. Does that make them Nazis? Is that how you'd refer to them?

By your own logic, you have now proven yourself to be a card-carrying KKK member. After all, your blind hatred of a black President reminds us all that racism lives and that it lives primarily on the right side of the political spectrum.

Hey, if anyone has a problem with that, take it up with SkyNazi. I'm just playing by the rules he laid out...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

KWICKO

Friday, June 5, 2009 11:55 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, June 5, 2009 4:24 PM

More Reaction

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2009/06/200964195726442565.
html

News Americas
US reaction split on Obama speech
By Rob Reynolds, senior Washington correspondent

In Barack Obama's highly anticipated speech in Cairo, there was something that struck me as distinctively American: His call for the peoples of the Middle East to put aside or quickly resolve decades and even centuries-old conflicts.

"Whatever we think of the past, we must not be prisoners of it," the US president said on Thursday.

Easier said then done, of course. The notion of "turning the page" comes easily to many Americans, but is odd and unsettling to cultures still living with the results of historic wrongs.

Another thing struck me as distinctly political: Obama's constant references to his Muslim background, boyhood days in Indonesia, and frequent citations from the Quran sounded a bit odd coming from a man who made strenuous efforts to ignore those aspects of his autobiography in the 2008 campaign for the White House.

In fact, Obama's campaign attacked critics who insisted on using his middle name; now, here was Barack Hussein Obama on stage in Cairo dropping a "shukran" (Arabic for "thank you" here) and an "assalaamu alaikum" (peace be unto you) there.

Republican 'chorus'

Nancy Pelosi praised Obama's speech as a
'great triumph' [GALLO/GETTY]
Back in the US, there is an unwritten rule that politicians do not criticise the president when he is travelling abroad.

However that did not stop Obama's opponents. Dan Burton, a Republican congressman, blasted him on Iran and Israel, saying: "When he talks about Iran, it doesn't make any sense right now, there's no way to guarantee that Iran isn't developing a nuclear weapons programme and I believe they are, and Israel is threatened severely."

Joining the Republican chorus was Elizabeth Cheney, a former Bush administration state department official and daughter of the former vice-president, Dick Cheney.

Her comments seemed intended to defend her father from criticism of his actions on waterboarding and selective use of intelligence in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq.

"I, as an American, find it troubling to hear an American president on foreign soil say our reaction to 9/11 was something that betrayed our ideals," she told MSNBC news on Thursday.

Fellow Democrats, meanwhile, praised Obama, with Nancy Pelosi, speaker of the house of representatives, calling the speech "a great triumph".

"There is indeed a tumultuous history between us," Obama said, stating the obvious.

He went on: "In the middle of the Cold War, the United States played a role in the overthrow of a democratically elected Iranian government."

Of course, every Iranian schoolchild knows how the CIA orchestrated (not "played a role") in the coup that topped Mohammed Mossadegh, the then prime minister, in August 1953, but you would be hard pressed to find one American in 1,000 who has ever heard of it.

But on the Fox News network, that reference to the coup was seen as craven grovelling.

Jonah Goldberg, a conservative author and Fox contributor, said Obama's "constant apologising" was Obama's way to "advance his own cult of personality".

And Gretchen Carlson, a Fox anchorwoman, said in astonishment: "He apologised for the US role in Iran!"

Afghan escalation

In depth
One of the most animated moments in Obama's speech came as he talked about his decision to escalate the war in Afghanistan.

"It is agonising for America to lose our young men and women," Obama said, admitting it is "politically difficult to continue this conflict".

However, he argued that the US must do so to avoid allowing Afghanistan to become a haven for al-Qaeda and other extremists.

And many Obama supporters on the left are deeply concerned that Obama's Afghanistan policy may end up as a quagmire sucking his presidency down to disaster, much as the war in Vietnam overshadowed the progressive achievements of Lyndon Johnson.

" They don't hate America, they hate Amer

KWICKO

Friday, June 5, 2009 4:36 PM

Quote:

Dan Burton, a Republican congressman, blasted him on Iran and Israel, saying: "When he talks about Iran, it doesn't make any sense right now, there's no way to guarantee that Iran isn't developing a nuclear weapons programme and I believe they are, and Israel is threatened severely."

He's right, of course. There IS no way to guarantee that. Invading Iran won't guarantee it. Bombing them won't guarantee it.

Israel is threatened severely? Really? How about Iran? Are they threatened severely by the fact that Israel already HAS nuclear weapons? Are they threatened severely by the fact that Israel essentially has the world's lone military superpower at its beck and call?

How is it that Israel is the only one threatened in the area? Haven't they been doing plenty of threatening of their own, backed up by harsh actions of a quasi-genocidal nature?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

RIPWASH

Friday, June 5, 2009 5:01 PM

Now, I'll need some educatin' because I only hear one side of things some times, ya know.

I don't recall hearing about Isreal (any leader of Isreal, that is) ranting about wanting to wipe Iran of the map/face of the earth. Am I wrong? This comes down to a country (through it's leader) that has some restraint vs. a country with a nutjob for a leader who makes such claims. Really. If Isreal wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet, they probably would have done so by now. Donthcathink?

*********************************************
"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

CHRISISALL

Friday, June 5, 2009 5:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skywalken:
As a card-carrying proud Zionist

You're from Zion? The last human city deep underground near the Earth's core where it's still warm?
Shirley you jest.
As a card-carrying Matrix agent I find that highly unlikely.

The laughing Chrisisall

KWICKO

Friday, June 5, 2009 5:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
Now, I'll need some educatin' because I only hear one side of things some times, ya know.

I don't recall hearing about Isreal (any leader of Isreal, that is) ranting about wanting to wipe Iran of the map/face of the earth. Am I wrong? This comes down to a country (through it's leader) that has some restraint vs. a country with a nutjob for a leader who makes such claims. Really. If Isreal wanted to wipe them off the face of the planet, they probably would have done so by now. Donthcathink?

*********************************************
"It's okay! I'm a leaf on the wind!!!"
"What does that mean?!?!?!"

Ripper, if you heard that about Iran, you heard wrong. Look it up, paying particular attention to the translation.

Looks like once again you've fallen victim to the hard right's "approved news sources", and only heard what they wanted you to hear. I heard that, too, and did some checking. It might astonish you if you were to look into it.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, June 5, 2009 6:26 PM

Be nice Mikey - the fact that he's askin for clarification means he's holding an open mind about it.

RIP, much of the translation of middle eastern media comes from MEMRI, which is more or less an outright propaganda arm of Israel, wholly owned by folks with an agenda, and has a history of "creative" translation bordering on outright lies.

What dinner-jacket actually SAID was something more on the nature of "Vanish from the pages of time", meaning fall and be forgotten, as many past empires both good and bad have done - and in context he was commenting on Israels taking of Palestinian land and referred to it as a stain of disgrace (the act) - which MEMRI deliberately mistranslated as meaning (the country committing the act) and even someone without knowledge of those languages, with a little research, can see that it was a deliberate distortion.

More to come in a moment...

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, June 5, 2009 6:35 PM

Here's some stuff to Google, RIP, I pulled it out of previous posts, but it's enough to start with..

Quote:
I still say we need to cut em off, whatever it takes, AMDOCS, COMVERSE, The ZoneAlarm trickery, USS Liberty, the "Dancing Arabs", Urban Moving Systems, the "Art Students", AIPAC, The Lavon Incident, The false flag attack on the hotel in Kenya, Nov 2002, Adam Pearlman, Dov Zackheim and a lotta missin money, The Libya bait and switch that caused Reagan to bomb Quadaffis office, The King David Hotel, The high likelyhood that Entebbe was a false flag (raised by MI6), I mean hell folks, that's just the *documented* stuff, if you include events that cannot be substantially proven but most of the evidence points to em, this'd go six pages easy.

And while we're at it, lemme point out that they're also the largest source of the Ecstacy, aka E (MDMA) flooding our streets, something which the subversion of Law Enforcement attempts to shut the distribution networks down was accomplished by their connection with the subversion of the AMDOCS billing system, which is what brought it to light in the first place.

As such, the behavior of our so-called "allies" towards us is quite reprehensible, especially in light that they constitute 31% of our foreign aid budget, to the tune of almost seven million bucks a day.

I know I am harsh about this, but it's not zealotry as much as the natural reaction to watching our tax money shovelled by the bucketfull into the maw of a country who's "thanks" is often enough a knife in our back.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

KPO

Friday, June 5, 2009 7:04 PM

The wikipedia 'nuclear weapons and israel' page is pretty interesting, particularly this on israel's strategic position and military doctrine:

Quote:
Doctrine
Israel's nuclear doctrine is shaped by its lack of strategic depth: a subsonic fighter jet could cross in four minutes the 40 nautical miles (74 km) from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean Sea. It additionally relies on a reservist-based military which magnifies civilian and military losses in its small population. Israel tries to compensate for these weaknesses by emphasising intelligence, manoeuverability and firepower.[109]

As a result, its strategy is based on the premise that it cannot afford to lose a single war, and thus must prevent them by maintaining deterrence, including the option of preemption. If these steps are insufficient, it seeks to prevent escalation and determine a quick and decisive war outside of its borders.[109]

Strategically, Israel's long-range missiles, nuclear capable aircraft, and possibly its submarines present an effective second strike deterrence against unconventional and conventional attack, and if Israel's defences fail and its population centres be threatened, the Samson Option, an all out attack against an adversary, would be employed. Its nuclear arsenal can also be used tactically.[109]

Although nuclear weapons are viewed as the ultimate guarantor of Israeli security, as early as the 1960s the country has avoided building its military around them, instead pursuing absolute conventional superiority so as to forestall a last resort nuclear engagement.[109]

According to historian Avner Cohen, Israel first articulated an official policy on the use of nuclear weapons in 1966, which revolved around four "red lines" that could lead to a nuclear response:[110]

1. A successful Arab military penetration into populated areas within Israel's post-1949 (pre-1967) borders.
2. The destruction of the Israeli Air Force.
3. The exposure of Israeli cities to massive and devastating air attacks or to possible chemical or biological attacks.
4. The use of nuclear weapons against Israeli territory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel

Heads should roll

KWICKO

Friday, June 5, 2009 9:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Be nice Mikey - the fact that he's askin for clarification means he's holding an open mind about it.

RIP, much of the translation of middle eastern media comes from MEMRI, which is more or less an outright propaganda arm of Israel, wholly owned by folks with an agenda, and has a history of "creative" translation bordering on outright lies.

Sorry, Frem, and Sorry, Ripper, if I came across as hot-headed above. Surely not intended. I merely suggested looking it up because I tended to take it as told for several years, until I stumbled across something that disputed that, and looked into it further. Several sources outright refute the "quote" and strongly imply that it was deliberatly mis-translated in an effort to fan the flames.

Do I *like* Mahmoud I'mmawearmydinnerjacket? Not one whit. But as I need to keep pointing out, if we're going to cap someone or invade their country, can we at least be honest about our reasons why, and not stoop to just making shit up out of thin air as our "justification" for doing so?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

"You're a idiot." -AuRaptor, RWED, May 27, 2009.

GINOBIFFARONI

Saturday, June 6, 2009 12:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Be nice Mikey - the fact that he's askin for clarification means he's holding an open mind about it.

RIP, much of the translation of middle eastern media comes from MEMRI, which is more or less an outright propaganda arm of Israel, wholly owned by folks with an agenda, and has a history of "creative" translation bordering on outright lies.

What dinner-jacket actually SAID was something more on the nature of "Vanish from the pages of time", meaning fall and be forgotten, as many past empires both good and bad have done - and in context he was commenting on Israels taking of Palestinian land and referred to it as a stain of disgrace (the act) - which MEMRI deliberately mistranslated as meaning (the country committing the act) and even someone without knowledge of those languages, with a little research, can see that it was a deliberate distortion.

More to come in a moment...

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

My interpretation on what was meant by that particular speech was that he was challenging the legality of the foundation of Israel in the first place....

and really, looking at the UN's actions in those days, rules were bent if not broken at a whim.

Perhaps an accounting would be a good thing,

nice if the UN could learn from their history, wouldn't it...

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

SKYWALKEN

Monday, June 15, 2009 5:16 AM

Is Barack Obama the new Hitler?

It's a question worth asking.

SHINYGOODGUY

Monday, June 15, 2009 5:57 AM

Oooooo, thems fighting words! :)

Tawabawho?

SHINYGOODGUY

Monday, June 15, 2009 5:58 AM

You're one president off there Skyperson.

Tawabawho?

GINOBIFFARONI

Monday, June 15, 2009 6:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skywalken:
Is Barack Obama the new Hitler?

It's a question worth asking.

Americans as Nazis...

old news man, been heading that way for years

but if Obama is the new Hitler...

I suppose that would make Bush - Paul von Hindenburg

if Paul von Hindenburg snorted coke and ducked out of fighting in WW1...

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

WULFENSTAR

Monday, June 15, 2009 8:35 PM

How about this...

We stop supporting Israel. At least with government money. Private donations are ok...

That would solve a LOT of problems right there.

KWICKO

Monday, June 15, 2009 8:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
How about this...

We stop supporting Israel. At least with government money. Private donations are ok...

That would solve a LOT of problems right there.

Seconded.

GINOBIFFARONI

Monday, June 15, 2009 9:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
How about this...

We stop supporting Israel. At least with government money. Private donations are ok...

That would solve a LOT of problems right there.

If private donations are okay there, then the ban on people donating to others like Hezbollah should also be lifted.

Choice should be in the hands of the people, or second best no choice at all and ban all money going to the region.

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

KWICKO

Monday, June 15, 2009 10:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
How about this...

We stop supporting Israel. At least with government money. Private donations are ok...

That would solve a LOT of problems right there.

If private donations are okay there, then the ban on people donating to others like Hezbollah should also be lifted.

Choice should be in the hands of the people, or second best no choice at all and ban all money going to the region.

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

Good point(s).

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, June 16, 2009 12:42 AM

Oh yes.

One of the reasons I have to use such an indirect, roundabout manner to support RAWA is in case the state dept ever decides to declare them terrorists, a strong possibility which they just might do as a sop to the dickheads we're propping up over there, and having a charitable org you've been donating to suddenly get listed as terrorists can have bad, BAD consequences for you, as some freakin college professors (Bayoumi, Haddad) down the road here learned the hard way.

Just remember folks, that charitable donation can come back to bite you, HARD, and the powers that be are keepin track of em all.

So remember it.

-Frem
http://www.rawa.org/index.php

GINOBIFFARONI

Wednesday, June 17, 2009 5:41 AM

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,630690,00.html

BYPASSING THE ROAD MAP ROAD BLOCK
How Long Can Israel Resist US Pressure?

By Christoph Schult, Gerhard Spörl and Gabor Steingart

As US President Barack Obama presses ahead with his Middle East peace intiatives, America's new tone and new modesty are going down well in the region. Even Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is finding it hard to resist the pressure to compromise on the Palestinian question.

Whenever anyone calls his resourcefulness in difficult situations into question, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu likes to recount an episode from his younger days. He was in his early twenties and was serving in the Israeli Defense Force's elite special forces unit Sayeret Matkal, which had been chosen to gather intelligence behind enemy lines and had a tough-as-nails reputation.

Netanyahu was leading a group of soldiers up a mountain when they suddenly found their path blocked by a giant boulder. With the side of the mountain to the left and a precipice to the right, the group's only real option was to turn around and abort the mission.

But, as Netanyahu likes to relate, he knew just what to do. Using shrubs that were growing out of the cliff, he made his way hand-over-hand around the obstacle, dangling over the abyss, and reached the path on the other side of the boulder.

Forty years later, Netanyahu is being called upon to use his imagination once again. This time, the challenges involve defusing the conflicts in the Middle East and the question of how Israel's relationship with its protective power, the United States, will develop under President Barack Obama. The president has asked him, in no uncertain terms, to accept the possibility of the establishment of a Palestinian state, as his predecessors did.

But solving this problem isn't as easy for Benjamin Netanyahu, who goes by the nickname Bibi, as it was to circumvent the boulder in his path when he was in his early twenties: The majority in his right-wing coalition government and in his own party rejects what Obama is asking him to do.

In a keynote speech on Sunday, the prime minister sought to lay out his plans to address the Palestinian question. He said he was willing to accept the establishment of a Palestinian state -- but set such strict pre-conditions, including the demand that such a state is demilitarized, that there is little chance of an agreement working. He also rejected Obama's calls for a complete halt to settlement building in the West Bank and ruled out giving East Jerusalem to the Palestinians as their capital.

Netanyahu has often talked about his vision of a peace with the Palestinians: economic development in the West Bank, which is controlled by the moderate Fatah movement under President Mahmoud Abbas, expansion of the settlements and no cooperation with radical Hamas in the Gaza Strip. He has also repeatedly described Iran as an existential threat to Israel, as well as to the region and the West.

Breaking the Cycle of Violence

Although the United States is very familiar with Netanyahu's position, the White House does not agree with it. Obama is not satisfied with the status quo, but instead wants to change it by defusing the conflicts. For this reason, Netanyahu will hardly be able to resist showing at least a modicum of accommodation in the long term, which includes recognizing the so-called road map for peace as a guideline for Middle East policy.

The road map is a graduated plan that includes obligations for both the Palestinians and the Israelis, the goal being to break through the fatal cycle of crisis and war, intifada uprisings, suicide bombings and military operations. At its core, the plan is about renouncing violence, and its ultimate goal is the recognition of the two-state solution by both sides.

The American president is pursuing the plan, which is not without risk. The Middle East has proved time and again to be a difficult region for ambitious reformers. In the years since the 1993 Oslo framework agreement

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, June 17, 2009 8:30 AM

Quote:
How Long Can Israel Resist US Pressure?

Answer - not very bloody long, if we cut off the damn floodgates of money.

Like any other parasite, when the host cuts em off, they're screwed.

Didja know we have a goddamn treaty with em to provide em with oil even if it means we go without ?
Which, being a treaty, mind you, carries Constitutional Force behind it - not that it seems to matter since we've broken so many already - that's one more I wouldn't *MIND* us breakin.

Fuck em, it's long past time they got off our goddamn tit and learned how to deal with the rest of the world without us propping them up financially, militarily, and tradewise - see how well their economy does when everyone they screwed won't buy from them, neh ?

I do think it's amusing they thought they could use Rahm to put the arm on Obama, and Obama's using Rahm to put the arm on THEM, political judo, that, and a neat turn of it.

-F

GINOBIFFARONI

Wednesday, June 17, 2009 4:21 PM

It seems a step, but will Obama push hard enought. Or will Netanyahu's supposed compromise screw the works.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/06/20096152028482619
45.html

" "But, friends, we must state the whole truth here. The truth is that in the area of our homeland, in the heart of our Jewish homeland, now lives a large population of Palestinians," Netanyahu said.

In other words, the presence of Palestinians in their lands is portrayed as an accident of history – thus annulling in one speech their history and stripping them of their legal, let alone their national, rights. "

Jimmy Carter is rather involved here, and may be alot more effective than Hillary Clinton in this situation

" He said the Palestinians had been treated "like animals" and the deprivations faced by them in Gaza were unique in history.

Carter said he was trying to persuade Hamas leaders to accept the international community's conditions for ending its boycott of the movemen "

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/06/20096161303857168
4.html

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939