Cyberbullying Prevention Act

POSTED BY: canttakesky
UPDATED: Friday, June 5, 2009 18:43
VIEWED: 2356
PAGE 1 of 1

CANTTAKESKY

Tuesday, June 2, 2009 3:56 PM

Quote:
Whoever transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any communication, with the intent to coerce, intimidate, harass, or cause substantial emotional distress to a person, using electronic means to support severe, repeated, and hostile behavior, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both....

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.1966:

Commentary
http://volokh.com/posts/1241122059.shtml
http://www.siliconangle.com/ver2/?p=4681

If this act passes, most RWED'ers could become felons. Can you imagine? A good portion of RWED is substantial emotional distress and severe, repeated hostile behavior.

--------------------------
I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpation.
-- James Madison

MALACHITE

Tuesday, June 2, 2009 4:04 PM

Hmmm... How are they going to enforce this?

JONGSSTRAW

Tuesday, June 2, 2009 4:32 PM

This may be in response to the recent Facebook teenage suicide. Some teen's mother posed as a boy in school, and then proceeded to trash and humiliate a specific girl. That innocent girl ended up killing herself. Now the mother is facing felony charges. I don't believe what goes on in RWED qualifies as "bullying" because we are all anonymous.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, June 2, 2009 5:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by canttakesky:
If this act passes, most RWED'ers could become felons. Can you imagine? A good portion of RWED is substantial emotional distress and severe, repeated hostile behavior.

You smell and have stupid hair.

And I'm not subject to your laws, so there's nothing you can do about it :p

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, June 2, 2009 6:04 PM

Just one more case of how the road to hell gets paved.

You can NOT legislate away stupidity, malice, or a lack of common decency - in fact you cannot LEGALLY enforce any SOCIAL value, it just does not work and it's idiotic to even try.

Not that this, yanno, ever stops em, but they're using a screwdriver to do a hammers job here.

-F

PIRATENEWS

Tuesday, June 2, 2009 6:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Malachite:
Hmmm... How are they going to enforce this?

With lots of guns.

How to defend? All it takes is 1 gun.

Blogger jailed for defamation in Anna Nicole Smith case by greedy momma cop Vergie Arthur:
www.infowars.com/blogger-jailed-in-anna-nicole-smith-defamation-suit/

MALACHITE

Tuesday, June 2, 2009 6:14 PM

Frem, your point reminds me of Christians' take on Old Testament law/the ten commandments: Laws can identify moral deficiencies, but can't change a person's heart and actually create moral goodness.

KWICKO

Tuesday, June 2, 2009 6:15 PM

Great. Now we not only have to invite Rappy back, we have to play nice, hand him a cookie, and give him a trophy just for showing up...

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, June 2, 2009 7:44 PM

That's exactly it, Malachite.

Which is why prohibition failed, the "War on (some) Drugs" is doomed to fail, and why this and other measures is such a damn bad idea.

You cannot fix such matters from the top down, you can only fix those by instilling values other than blind obedience, rabid consumerism, and government/religous/corporate veneration in our children.

We need to start raising heretics who'll question things - the same way children became boys, then men, who questioned, examined and personally judged for themselves whether or not treating women like chattel was a good idea - and in the end, discarded the idea like the garbage it was.

You cannot legislate away such behaviors, and it is my hope to create a day where the very idea of harming or exploiting a fellow human for gain, pleasure, or simple amusement, carries with it the same social and moral revulsion as infanticide or cannibalism.

ONLY that, will ever save us, it lies within ourselves, in our hearts, not outside us, in our laws.

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

MALACHITE

Tuesday, June 2, 2009 8:40 PM

"You cannot fix such matters from the top down, you can only fix those by instilling values other than blind obedience, rabid consumerism, and government/religous/corporate veneration in our children.

We need to start raising heretics who'll question things - the same way children became boys, then men, who questioned, examined and personally judged for themselves whether or not treating women like chattel was a good idea - and in the end, discarded the idea like the garbage it was.

You cannot legislate away such behaviors, and it is my hope to create a day where the very idea of harming or exploiting a fellow human for gain, pleasure, or simple amusement, carries with it the same social and moral revulsion as infanticide or cannibalism.

ONLY that, will ever save us, it lies within ourselves, in our hearts, not outside us, in our laws."

I certainly agree with the sentiment (though whereas you believe we have the ability to change our own hearts, I believe that we need ourselves and God for that transformation to begin -- and once the transformation begins, we will still be works in progress, never achieving perfection in this life).

Regardless, we agree the changed heart is an ideal to strive for. What you describe in some ways is that parents instill basic values into their children but, for this to work as a whole, parents need to be instilling the same values as other parents -- otherwise, you are left with some parents saying killing for your beliefs is "good" and others saying life is to be respected. Hopefully, most people have a common sense of what is good, but I'm not always so sure...

That gets me to thinking about what we are supposed to do while we wait for everyone to come up with a common sense of good and raise their children accordingly. That is probably where the law comes in handy -- an external authority that reflects our ideal values and declares that some acts are unacceptable and should have consequences. I think the law can help address discrepancies in parenting (some people don't have parents, and some parents don't teach good values very well) by providing at least some external authority declaring what is wrong. But the law really is kind of a stop gap, not the ideal itself.

I also think that the law can be helpful in preventing some people from going down roads that will cause them harm. For example, keeping cocaine illegal (you mentioned drugs, I think, so I'll use that). Just the fact that cocaine is illegal and has negative legal consequences means that some people will never even dare to try it. That, in my opinion is definitely a good thing, because once a person tries it, there is a significant possibility for addiction and the life-ruining pursuit of it. And, the pursuit of it leads to more illegal acts that then go on to violate the rights of others. So, the law not only has the potential to prevent the person from destroying their own life, but also protects other people down the line.

So, I guess my point is, while I agree that we can't legislate away bad behaviors, it is difficult to imagine what would substitute for the law in a community.

Anyways, that's enough rambling for now...

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, June 2, 2009 9:24 PM

Funny, that.

I am actually hostile to the Christian Belief System, despite many of my allies being Christian and one of my staunchest and most reliable moral advisors being a former nun.

But that's the thing, it's the *systems* I don't like - individualised religion I have found to be a positive force on peoples behavior, one of the rare instances where actual experience has trumped all logic to the contrary.

I am a Universalist Unitarian from a Humanist perspective, mind you, and as a UU Lay Priest, there's room for everyone, right ?

As for instilling values, you don't have to be a parent to connect with the younger generation, a couple local high school kids got to talkin to me while I was waiting to pick up a friends kid cause they had car trouble, and this evolved into what we call the Socrates Club, where we discuss issues or I even teach stuff (mostly history), and on many occasions we discuss tricky moral stuff that kids of that age mostly will not discuss with adults cause they don't trust em enough to do anything but parrot the socially acceptable challenge-response.

That's actually had a very positive effect educationally too, said history teacher hung around after school to sit in and see if he could figure out why stuff "stuck" when I told em, and didn't in his class - a lot of the problem was his boring delivery, so he's taken to borrowing period props and stuff to try and add a more visual component to the usual curriculum, and between us personally he's more than a bit frustrated with teaching a curriculum which is somewhat distorted, but he cannot risk his job, and all.

One of the other very positive effects was one of the kids who's got one hell of an aptitude as an appliance repairman, I loaned him some books and tools and he managed to repair his mothers washing machine, to her surprised delight, and I fronted his entrance application fee for a local tech school cause he's absolutely GOT what it takes.

And while I might not be the best role model, surely it's better than the sociopaths society holds up as heros to emulate, while casting scorn and derision upon moral, tolerant and merciful folk.

I also disagree with the law as a check against bad impulses, cause it leads down a road that ends with us locked up in padded cubicles in between our service to Government/Corporation "for our own good", which isn't a viable end point in my opinion.

Hell, it wasn't all THAT long ago you could buy opium right over the counter as a toothache remedy, and damn cheap too - yet we didn't have such a problem with it then as we do now, the forbidden fruit aspect adds to it as well.
http://wings.buffalo.edu/aru/preprohibition.htm

I think addiction should be handled as a purely medical concern, myself, cause I fail to see how locking someone upon without treatment would have any net positive effect.

One reason, besides being an Anarchist, that I do not see Government or Law as a solution is because both of those things are made by the very fallible, sinful and imperfect humans they are used against, and all too often for selfish wicked reasons.

Also, laws are meant to protect people and their stuff, but over time you'll notice that somehow in the end they always wind up not only considered more important than those things, but are just as often twisted and distorted in direct opposition to the very things they were supposed to protect and still considered more important.

At which point, with me, they lose all validity, you see ?

What we got, what will work, is for us, all of us, to reach out to each other, embrace our humanity instead of isolating ourselves as this technological society has caused us to do, to smash the barriers of race, religion, income, and every other stupid thing that evil people use to divide us, instead of building them higher and wrapping them with barbed wire.

One life, spent well, can touch SO many others in a positive way that a tiny minority can be the very change they wish to be if they only act on it instead of waiting for some mythic fi

MALACHITE

Thursday, June 4, 2009 2:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Funny, that.

I am actually hostile to the Christian Belief System, despite many of my allies being Christian and one of my staunchest and most reliable moral advisors being a former nun.

But that's the thing, it's the *systems* I don't like - individualised religion I have found to be a positive force on peoples behavior, one of the rare instances where actual experience has trumped all logic to the contrary.

I am a Universalist Unitarian from a Humanist perspective, mind you, and as a UU Lay Priest, there's room for everyone, right ?

As for instilling values, you don't have to be a parent to connect with the younger generation, a couple local high school kids got to talkin to me while I was waiting to pick up a friends kid cause they had car trouble, and this evolved into what we call the Socrates Club, where we discuss issues or I even teach stuff (mostly history), and on many occasions we discuss tricky moral stuff that kids of that age mostly will not discuss with adults cause they don't trust em enough to do anything but parrot the socially acceptable challenge-response.

That's actually had a very positive effect educationally too, said history teacher hung around after school to sit in and see if he could figure out why stuff "stuck" when I told em, and didn't in his class - a lot of the problem was his boring delivery, so he's taken to borrowing period props and stuff to try and add a more visual component to the usual curriculum, and between us personally he's more than a bit frustrated with teaching a curriculum which is somewhat distorted, but he cannot risk his job, and all.

One of the other very positive effects was one of the kids who's got one hell of an aptitude as an appliance repairman, I loaned him some books and tools and he managed to repair his mothers washing machine, to her surprised delight, and I fronted his entrance application fee for a local tech school cause he's absolutely GOT what it takes.

And while I might not be the best role model, surely it's better than the sociopaths society holds up as heros to emulate, while casting scorn and derision upon moral, tolerant and merciful folk.

I also disagree with the law as a check against bad impulses, cause it leads down a road that ends with us locked up in padded cubicles in between our service to Government/Corporation "for our own good", which isn't a viable end point in my opinion.

Hell, it wasn't all THAT long ago you could buy opium right over the counter as a toothache remedy, and damn cheap too - yet we didn't have such a problem with it then as we do now, the forbidden fruit aspect adds to it as well.
http://wings.buffalo.edu/aru/preprohibition.htm

I think addiction should be handled as a purely medical concern, myself, cause I fail to see how locking someone upon without treatment would have any net positive effect.

One reason, besides being an Anarchist, that I do not see Government or Law as a solution is because both of those things are made by the very fallible, sinful and imperfect humans they are used against, and all too often for selfish wicked reasons.

Also, laws are meant to protect people and their stuff, but over time you'll notice that somehow in the end they always wind up not only considered more important than those things, but are just as often twisted and distorted in direct opposition to the very things they were supposed to protect and still considered more important.

At which point, with me, they lose all validity, you see ?

What we got, what will work, is for us, all of us, to reach out to each other, embrace our humanity instead of isolating ourselves as this technological society has caused us to do, to smash the barriers of race, religion, income, and every other stupid thing that evil people use to divide us, instead of building them higher and wrapping them with barbed wire.

One life, spent well, can touch SO many others in a positive way that a tiny minority can be the very change they wish to be if they only act

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GEEZER

Thursday, June 4, 2009 3:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
You smell and have stupid hair.

And I'm not subject to your laws, so there's nothing you can do about it :p

Cit.

When the international cyberbullying hit squads are authorized, you're in big trouble.

BTW, what happened to your "I only get insulting when I'm insulted" bullshit?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SERGEANTX

Thursday, June 4, 2009 4:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Malachite:
Hmmm... How are they going to enforce this?

Ah, see, that's where it gets fun. 'Cause once this gets momentum, police will need new "tools" to enforce the law. Which, of course, is the point.

SergeantX

"It's a cold and it's a broken hallelujah"

BADKARMA00

Thursday, June 4, 2009 5:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Just one more case of how the road to hell gets paved.

You can NOT legislate away stupidity, malice, or a lack of common decency - in fact you cannot LEGALLY enforce any SOCIAL value, it just does not work and it's idiotic to even try.

Not that this, yanno, ever stops em, but they're using a screwdriver to do a hammers job here.

-F

----------------

Well said Frem man. You cannot legislate morality of any kind.

Bad_karma
Great and Exalted Grand Pooba, International Brotherhood of Moonshiners, Rednecks, and Good Old Boys.

CITIZEN

Thursday, June 4, 2009 7:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

BTW, what happened to your "I only get insulting when I'm insulted" bullshit?

What happened to your sense of humour?

Hmm, Geezer trolling, now there's something we see every day.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, June 4, 2009 8:37 AM

Quote:
What I evidently had missed was how much potential for good you see in humanity. Aren't you the same person who posted the link to the self-defense website that talked about being aware of your surroundings and the need to think like a perpetrator in order to anticipate situations where criminal activity could take place? If so, I am reminded of how Jesus told his followers to "Be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves"...

I might disagree with some of the J-mans philosophy, but he wasn't nobodys fool neither - Machiavelli said something along those lines as well.

And yeah, the potential is there, always has been - if our nature was ever REALLY as bad as those who offer to control it (with themselves at the helm, of course) "for our own good" would lead us to believe, we'd never have built civilization, such as it is, in the first place.

But even that was a first step, not an end point, far as I am concerned.

Quote:
That being said, I am perhaps more pessimistic in my view of humanity in that I feel that even in ideal circumstances, there will always be those who choose to disagree with the ideology and even some who will go on to violate the rights of others. It is their free will, after all.

Yep, always gonna have those, but without laws to hide behind that protect them FROM their victims, that tends to be a self-correcting phenomenon, and as well, had we not all but criminalised self-defense entire, it would not encourage them so.

It's one thing to commit an act of aggression against someone whom you know is all but defenseless, and very much another to do so against someone who's very damn likely to blow a hole in you.

There is also the social effects which by endlessly reinforcing behaviors most folk would not otherwise adopt, cause a magnification effect out of proportion with the natural occurance of them.

Quote:
I think you will have to have an established set of guidelines to know what those rights are

But we already have that, the so-called "Golden Rule" - don't do stuff to other people you wouldn't want done to you, which is perhaps a bit oversimplified, but again, SOCIAL rules are far more powerful than LEGAL rules cause people internalise the former as part of their own beliefs.

Quote:
but I agree that for some (possibly many?) there are more meaningful consequences that could actually work toward rehabilitating people.
Sorry, I'm not good with examples on this -- perhaps education and job skills training along with medical care, mental health treatment and substance abuse treatment?

Yes, I understand the concept - whenever the juvie court would come down on me (usually over an act that even THEY admitted was pure self defense) I always chose community service at the local soup kitchen, cause I felt payin off the debt by doin something that actively benefitted people was far more useful than stupid makework or kickin around in a holding cell for a couple days, as that benefits no one whatsoever.

Quote:
I also don't think that even if you could just put adults together and teach them critical thinking, they would come to the same conclusions about what is right and wrong. Heck, RWED has enough intelligent, critical thinkers who sometimes have vastly opposing viewpoints on what is right and wrong. I'm not sure it would be a good thing, even if you could do it, to create some atmosphere where they all have the same viewpoint...

Or have sufficient tolerance for each others that it doesn't result in violence.

But yeah, adults are set in their ways, very calcified - which is why I work with up-and-coming generations, still capable of the mental flexibility to accept new concepts and ideas - although most of the ones I wound up working with initially were that way cause this society had deeply wronged them so badly they were actively hostile to it, which unchecked leads them to destroy themselves and each other, trapped in an endless cycle of retaliation.

I give them another option.

I call it the Peacecraft Effect, after an Anime ch

GEEZER

Thursday, June 4, 2009 12:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

What happened to your sense of humour?

Hmm, Geezer trolling, now there's something we see every day.

Now THAT'S funny!!!

"Keep the Shiny side up"

6IXSTRINGJACK

Thursday, June 4, 2009 12:43 PM

Ahhhh Cit....

I see that British wit is keeping you well embedded like a chigger under the skin of anyone here with an opposing view. Good to see some things never change.

When O'Brien comes down off his Inner Party throne there on Airstrip One and makes you an unperson I promise I'll never forget that on several occasions you annoyed the shit out of me.

At least you'll be remembered until O'Bama sends the black choppers to my place in the middle of the night anyhow...

Who knows... maybe we'll be cellmates at Miniluv... er, um... I mean Gitmo.

Wouldn't that be a trip?

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

CITIZEN

Thursday, June 4, 2009 12:46 PM

Trollin' trollin' trollin'
Them trolls keep a trollin'!

Guys, you do get that you're both proving me right about you I trust?

Quote:
I see that British wit is keeping you well embedded like a chigger under the skin of anyone here with an opposing view

Hell Jack, I see your desire to blame everyone else for your actions is in full force! Still demanding the racial purification of the United States while trying to portray yourself as a Libertarian are we? Marvellous!

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, June 4, 2009 4:11 PM

I swear y'all remind me of the three stooges sometimes.

Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk *bonk*!

-F

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, June 5, 2009 6:43 PM

Addendum to this, while the article itself is on something unrelated, and presents a side of a different story I ain't sure I agree with, one little piece of it jumped out at me regarding this discussion - and how Anarchists and the way they treat younger folk like human beings, like people, has a positive and long lasting impact on them.

My Experience with Dr. Tiller
http://www.counterpunch.org/quigley06022009.html

The somewhat unrelated piece that jumped out at me is this...

There I met a group of dirty punk twentysomethings who had traveled from Ohio just to stand in front of the clinic and challenge the fundamentalists at every turn. For reasons I’ll never know, they took a long-haired eleven year old into their midst and treated me like an equal. I listened with rapt attention to their radical anarchist ideas on religion, government and a women’s right to choose. I asked silly questions that they patiently answered with the respect few give a sixth grader on matters of political theory.

For years after that week in July, I corresponded with one of them, debating, challenging and listening to her many ideas. Through these dialogues, I began to form my own thoughts, not just on abortion, but on a wide variety of political questions.

We don't talk down, talk to, or talk AT, children, we talk WITH them - and that is a very key point regarding the whole concept of personhood.

-F