Star Trek Better Second Time

POSTED BY: Jongsstraw
UPDATED: Sunday, May 24, 2009 21:47
VIEWED: 10445
PAGE 3 of 5

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 NEXT PAGE

JONGSSTRAW

Wednesday, May 20, 2009 4:34 PM

Interesting discussions here folks. I have NEVER seen a "perfect" movie in my life. They don't exist. They all have problems with plot or character to some degree, even our beloved Serenity. Compared the rest of the Treks that preceded this for the last 20+ years, this new movie blows them all away. It took a second viewing for me to feel this way. I may see it for a third time while its still on the big screen.

STORYMARK

Wednesday, May 20, 2009 4:59 PM

Granted, every movie has flaws, but still... blatant gaps in logic are bad, and saying "all movies have flaws" is a lame defense.

Yeah, it's an awesome movie, but that shouldn't mean we can't acknowledge where it went wrong.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

OPPYH

Thursday, May 21, 2009 4:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
You're certainly not the "only" one who didn't like Voyage Home. It's not generally regarded as one of the best. But for me, I liked it the most of the original movies.

Probably regarded as one of the best because it's the most "mainstream" Trek film.

Easy to get into(especially for non-fans) enjoy and laugh for a while. It is still the most entertaining Trek film I have seen.

Search for Spock also kicks ass. I liked it better than the Wrath of Kahn.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Thursday, May 21, 2009 5:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You need to see it again. When Captain Pike was leaving to surrender to Nero he promoted Kirk to First Officer, and he made Spock acting Captain. Spock was not thrilled about that, but Kirk earned that battlefield commission because he recognized what was really going on over Vulcan. Kirk saved all their lives, and also Pike knew that young Kirk had the potential and qualities of his father. After Spock attacked Kirk he relinquished command to Kirk, who became acting Captain. The entire crew was young, and that's typical of military situations, and a brand new starship. Nothing elementary schoolish here. Just great storytelling on an epic scale.

That explains a temporary field commission, sure. But I don't think there's any way in hell an organization like the Federation would then make that promotion permanent. Making a cadet Captain of the frakkin flagship is stretching credibility beyond it's limits.

That was one of the few problems I had with the script.

But I let is slide, knowing they were essentially unable to finish the script - The writer's strike went into effect in the middle of a re-write. Abrams commented several times durring filming that there were portions of the script he was unhappy with, but had no choice but to film what they had. I tend to think, with a little extra polish, issues like this promotion would have been worked out.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

Starfleet just lost all of their Galaxy class staarships in one fell swoop. Pike was about to do the same, except that Kirk's doggedness helped Pike realize his error.
Name on other person on board Enterprise who deserved to be in the Captains seat more - who had saved the entire ship, the entire crew, the entire remains of the fleet. No One. Not one single other person. Every single other person was perfectly willing to head into the slaughter even tho Kirk was telling them what a mistake it was.
A Battlefield Promotion is givien under the harshest conditions, where the mettle of the man is most gratly tested.
Kirk was the only person suited to fill that chair after Pike, and that is why Pike promoted him to first Officer, knowing full well he was second in command after Spock. If you were an Admiral and did not realize the wisdom of this, you need to be decommisioned or retired post hence.
Now, Spock ejecting him from the ship - that was lousy storytelling.

Did you even read what I wrote....? Again, you're talking the field commission in a time of emergency. And I agree, it works in that context, because there was no-one else to step-up.

I am talking about the end, when they officially put him in permanent command. I highly doubt there was not ONE single officer in ALL of Starfleet whith more experience than Kirk. That is where this falls apart.

A field commission is for times of emergency. And no matter how well he did with that command, he would not be given permanent command of the flagship as a cadet. It's just silly.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

I do understand we may differ on viewpoint.
Kirk's Commission was a Battlefield Commisiion. In another Trek story, superior officers have remarked how they had difficulty reprimanding a brash Officer why had just saved their lives, and every single person on Earth was just saved by Kirk. Kirk also, after being placed In Command, effectively Commanded the Enterprise in Battle, where the stakes for all Earthdwellers, as well as all Federation Planets, were at maximum.
Also consider that, like Kirk in the future, one must step down from Admiralty

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, May 21, 2009 11:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You need to see it again. When Captain Pike was leaving to surrender to Nero he promoted Kirk to First Officer, and he made Spock acting Captain. Spock was not thrilled about that, but Kirk earned that battlefield commission because he recognized what was really going on over Vulcan. Kirk saved all their lives, and also Pike knew that young Kirk had the potential and qualities of his father. After Spock attacked Kirk he relinquished command to Kirk, who became acting Captain. The entire crew was young, and that's typical of military situations, and a brand new starship. Nothing elementary schoolish here. Just great storytelling on an epic scale.

That explains a temporary field commission, sure. But I don't think there's any way in hell an organization like the Federation would then make that promotion permanent. Making a cadet Captain of the frakkin flagship is stretching credibility beyond it's limits.

That was one of the few problems I had with the script.

But I let is slide, knowing they were essentially unable to finish the script - The writer's strike went into effect in the middle of a re-write. Abrams commented several times durring filming that there were portions of the script he was unhappy with, but had no choice but to film what they had. I tend to think, with a little extra polish, issues like this promotion would have been worked out.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

Starfleet just lost all of their Galaxy class staarships in one fell swoop. Pike was about to do the same, except that Kirk's doggedness helped Pike realize his error.
Name on other person on board Enterprise who deserved to be in the Captains seat more - who had saved the entire ship, the entire crew, the entire remains of the fleet. No One. Not one single other person. Every single other person was perfectly willing to head into the slaughter even tho Kirk was telling them what a mistake it was.
A Battlefield Promotion is givien under the harshest conditions, where the mettle of the man is most gratly tested.
Kirk was the only person suited to fill that chair after Pike, and that is why Pike promoted him to first Officer, knowing full well he was second in command after Spock. If you were an Admiral and did not realize the wisdom of this, you need to be decommisioned or retired post hence.
Now, Spock ejecting him from the ship - that was lousy storytelling.

Did you even read what I wrote....? Again, you're talking the field commission in a time of emergency. And I agree, it works in that context, because there was no-one else to step-up.

I am talking about the end, when they officially put him in permanent command. I highly doubt there was not ONE single officer in ALL of Starfleet whith more experience than Kirk. That is where this falls apart.

A field commission is for times of emergency. And no matter how well he did with that command, he would not be given permanent command of the flagship as a cadet. It's just silly.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

I do understand we may differ on viewpoint.
Kirk's Commission was a Battlefield Commisiion. In another Trek story, superior officers have remarked how they had difficulty reprimanding a brash Officer why had just saved their lives, and every single person on Earth was just saved by Kirk. Kirk also, after being placed In Command, effectively Commanded the Enterprise in Battle, where the stakes for all Earthdwellers, as well as all Federation Planets, were at maximum.
Also consider that, like Kirk i

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME

2BY2GINGERBLUE

Thursday, May 21, 2009 1:44 PM

I agree the second time around was better. I could focus on other things on the screen and not on the story so much. I saw it on IMAXX and it was Sweet!

STEAMER

Thursday, May 21, 2009 2:31 PM

My personal favourite TOS film is, and ever shall be, Wrath of Khan. But I definitely agree that '09 is better the second time (they say you get to do the weird stuff) even when you see it twice in one 25-hour period.

Simon's got
To get a grip
River's turned
Into a ship
FIREFLY

Captain of the New England Browncoats
http://www.myspace.com/nebrowncoats

JAYNESMANE

Thursday, May 21, 2009 3:41 PM

I still have yet to see it! Grr..

---
http://cashcrate.com/697309
- Make money online filling out surveys!

http://www.surveysafari.x10hosting.com/ - My website; A guide to filling out surveys with tons of tricks & tips.

STORYMARK

Thursday, May 21, 2009 4:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

I do understand we may differ on viewpoint.
Kirk's Commission was a Battlefield Commisiion. In another Trek story, superior officers have remarked how they had difficulty reprimanding a brash Officer why had just saved their lives, and every single person on Earth was just saved by Kirk. Kirk also, after being placed In Command, effectively Commanded the Enterprise in Battle, where the stakes for all Earthdwellers, as well as all Federation Planets, were at maximum.

All wll and good for a temporary field commission - still don't buy it rationalizing the permanent promotion of a cadet who hadn't even graduated yet, to captain of the flippin Flagship.

Quote:
Also consider that, like Kirk in the future, one must step down from Admiralty to Command as Captain, and did anybody at Starfleet want to do that?

They lost 7 ships. Seven. Not the whole damned fleet. There were surely other captains out there.

Quote:
The Reins of Command are normally not best used to Halt or Slow the mustangs in your forces, but rather to merely aim them in the right direction, and see how far they go and how fast they get there. This is what the wisest of Starfleet knew, and did with Kirk in this story.

Wise commanders would also realize that the kid may have just gotten lucky. And let's be real here - without help from Old Spock, he never would have pulled it off anyway.

Still pretty damned thin rationelle. They made him captain at the end because that's what people expect - not for any logical story reasons.

Try applying your logic to the current military. A cadet on a aircraft carrier - call it the Enterprise for pairity if you like - stops a nuclear detonation, stopping a war that could well have ended the world. And the captain of the vessel is incapacitated in the process. Now, maybe under extreme circumstances, the cadet could take command for a short time. Do you honestly think they'd then give him the ship permanently....? Seriously?

Quote:
Why is nobody complaining about the promotions of Scotty, Uhura, or Bones. Bones seems most suspect - what did he contribute to the mission that prohibits another more experienced MD from being placed over him upon return to Starfleet?
Scotty, exiled to a backwash where no other human resides, suddenly the Chief Engineer on the biggest baddest Starship ever? Really? Is it because he alone was able to coax more Warp Speed from the Nacelles than anybody else, at a time and place essential to the successful completion of the mission to save all of the Federation? his ability to manipulate transporter technology, despite his naysaying superior's? His skills and abilities, tested under the greatest duress, are excatloy why he is proven to be the best possible holder of this position.
Uhura, her key skills replaced the senior comm tech on the bridge, her research and work and skills in this critical juncture are what was needed to successfully complete this mission, without which would be complete failure. This is why she would be the best comm tech on the bridge.

I agree they were implausible too, but at least Uhura and Scotty had graduated the academy, and Bones may have been on a different promotion path as a medic than Command staff would be. He mentioned when he brought Kirk to the Enterprise that he was already on the senior medical staff.

Quote:
There comes a time when Starfleet must understand that the chairwarmer Captains they have nurtured and coddled like the 7 that just got themselves obliterated are the result of a training system which must be jettisoned in favor of these brash, competent new officers who have so bravely displayed the best Starfleet has to offer, and that time is now. The ultra-chairwarmers at Starfleet wisely understood they themselves are not the answer.

This will be the best crew to spend 5 years on a mission far away from Starfleet, exploring strange new worlds and new civilizations. The Chai

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME