Star Trek Better Second Time

POSTED BY: Jongsstraw
UPDATED: Sunday, May 24, 2009 21:47
VIEWED: 10445
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CHRISISALL

Tuesday, May 19, 2009 8:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
I know this is going to go a little off topic, but am I the only one who thinks that The Voyage Home isn't that good?
No, you're not the only one.

Yeah, the Earth-is-threatened-yet-again thing was tired, but the character interaction was priceless.

The laughing Chrisisall

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Tuesday, May 19, 2009 8:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Logic is in question, where field promotions are concerned.

By that do you mean a brevit field promotion? Like Mal going from Staff Sgt to Captain in Serenity Valley?

Come on dude, Kirk was made the captain of the flagship of the federation fleet in San Fransisco in front of a federation tribunal during peacetime. Can nobody see the wierd foolisness of this? If the story had been told differently it might have worked. Had Kirk not been a misfit and in starfleet already a story can be constructed to avoid the problem. If the story is left the same and Kirk promoted beyond Ensign to..say..Lt Jr Grade for oustanding iniative, well ok then, good on him! I'll buy it. But the story Abrams told unhinged my belief suspension. I went from experiencing a Trek story to sitting in a theater with about 400 other people in front of a glowing screen.

I hate it when this happens because it represents lazy story construction.

JONGSSTRAW

Tuesday, May 19, 2009 8:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
I will acknowledge Star Trek as a good film but I will ask this:

Can anyone comment on the logic of promoting Kirk from Cadet to Captain? He bypassed all the ranks: Ensign, Lt Jr grade, Lt, Lt cmder, & Cmder to sit in the main seat.

When I watched that happen I thought of it as nothing more than elementry school storytelling.

You need to see it again. When Captain Pike was leaving to surrender to Nero he promoted Kirk to First Officer, and he made Spock acting Captain. Spock was not thrilled about that, but Kirk earned that battlefield commission because he recognized what was really going on over Vulcan. Kirk saved all their lives, and also Pike knew that young Kirk had the potential and qualities of his father. After Spock attacked Kirk he relinquished command to Kirk, who became acting Captain. The entire crew was young, and that's typical of military situations, and a brand new starship. Nothing elementary schoolish here. Just great storytelling on an epic scale.

CHRISISALL

Tuesday, May 19, 2009 8:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:

I hate it when this happens because it represents lazy story construction.

You mean like when Dr. Marcus was looking for MONTHS in our galaxy for a lifeless moon or other dead form...?

Or when the Enterprise or a Klingon Bird of Prey slingshot around the sun doing WARP 9...?

Dude...relax.

The laughing Chrisisall

STORYMARK

Tuesday, May 19, 2009 9:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You need to see it again. When Captain Pike was leaving to surrender to Nero he promoted Kirk to First Officer, and he made Spock acting Captain. Spock was not thrilled about that, but Kirk earned that battlefield commission because he recognized what was really going on over Vulcan. Kirk saved all their lives, and also Pike knew that young Kirk had the potential and qualities of his father. After Spock attacked Kirk he relinquished command to Kirk, who became acting Captain. The entire crew was young, and that's typical of military situations, and a brand new starship. Nothing elementary schoolish here. Just great storytelling on an epic scale.

That explains a temporary field commission, sure. But I don't think there's any way in hell an organization like the Federation would then make that promotion permanent. Making a cadet Captain of the frakkin flagship is stretching credibility beyond it's limits.

That was one of the few problems I had with the script.

But I let is slide, knowing they were essentially unable to finish the script - The writer's strike went into effect in the middle of a re-write. Abrams commented several times durring filming that there were portions of the script he was unhappy with, but had no choice but to film what they had. I tend to think, with a little extra polish, issues like this promotion would have been worked out.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Tuesday, May 19, 2009 10:13 PM

Quote:
You mean like when Dr. Marcus was looking for MONTHS in our galaxy for a lifeless moon or other dead form...?
Or when the Enterprise or a Klingon Bird of Prey slingshot around the sun doing WARP 9...?

Dude...relax.

Perhaps I compare things to the perfection of Firefly too much. I like logic. I like good stories. I like it when storytellers sit down and write something that is real and true in the fiction.

Let me say it this way:

Objects in Space is my favorite work of any sci-fi I've ever seen. When I watch the episode I might see River walking through the ship and say out loud "That's Summer Glau"....but I cannot feel it. It's not the acting ability that does this, it's the STORY. The tale is so good I cannot make myself see the actors at all, so complete is my suspension of disbelief.

When writters make up stuff like Abrams did with Kirk, I find the opposite happening. My belief suspension is removed. I no longer see a character piloting a ship in combat, but rather an actor surrounded by CGI. In the case of the film, Pike made Kirk (a stowaway cadet) the XO of the ship. While that seems awsome to us Trek fans who love Kirk, where is the logical outcome of such an action? When was Pike court marshalled for endangering the welfare of a flagship by field promoting a mavrick no-experience cadet who cheated his way through the Koybashi Maru exam?

Makes as much sense as warp 9 time travel around the sun. Yes. And BTW Chris, based upon your statements of seeking meaning, I hereby raise my opinion of Undiscovered Country in the other thread to switch it with Voyage Home. You're right about the message of Undiscovered Country being "Be aware of Bias"

GINOBIFFARONI

Wednesday, May 20, 2009 12:57 AM

Kirk's weird promotion ( both of them ) did bother me too,

But how about Spock having him thrown into an escape pod and jettisoned from the ship?????

the brig, sure.... but come on

" They don't hate America, they hate Americans " Homer Simpson

Lets party like its 1939

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Wednesday, May 20, 2009 9:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You need to see it again. When Captain Pike was leaving to surrender to Nero he promoted Kirk to First Officer, and he made Spock acting Captain. Spock was not thrilled about that, but Kirk earned that battlefield commission because he recognized what was really going on over Vulcan. Kirk saved all their lives, and also Pike knew that young Kirk had the potential and qualities of his father. After Spock attacked Kirk he relinquished command to Kirk, who became acting Captain. The entire crew was young, and that's typical of military situations, and a brand new starship. Nothing elementary schoolish here. Just great storytelling on an epic scale.

That explains a temporary field commission, sure. But I don't think there's any way in hell an organization like the Federation would then make that promotion permanent. Making a cadet Captain of the frakkin flagship is stretching credibility beyond it's limits.

That was one of the few problems I had with the script.

But I let is slide, knowing they were essentially unable to finish the script - The writer's strike went into effect in the middle of a re-write. Abrams commented several times durring filming that there were portions of the script he was unhappy with, but had no choice but to film what they had. I tend to think, with a little extra polish, issues like this promotion would have been worked out.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

Starfleet just lost all of their Galaxy class staarships in one fell swoop. Pike was about to do the same, except that Kirk's doggedness helped Pike realize his error.
Name on other person on board Enterprise who deserved to be in the Captains seat more - who had saved the entire ship, the entire crew, the entire remains of the fleet. No One. Not one single other person. Every single other person was perfectly willing to head into the slaughter even tho Kirk was telling them what a mistake it was.
A Battlefield Promotion is givien under the harshest conditions, where the mettle of the man is most gratly tested.
Kirk was the only person suited to fill that chair after Pike, and that is why Pike promoted him to first Officer, knowing full well he was second in command after Spock. If you were an Admiral and did not realize the wisdom of this, you need to be decommisioned or retired post hence.
Now, Spock ejecting him from the ship - that was lousy storytelling.

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Wednesday, May 20, 2009 12:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Name on other person on board Enterprise who deserved to be in the Captains seat more -

Kirk was the only person suited to fill that chair after Pike, and that is why Pike promoted him to first Officer, knowing full well he was second in command after Spock. If you were an Admiral and did not realize the wisdom of this, you need to be decommisioned or retired post hence.

You're working on the assumption that the captain of the enterprise has to be a person actively serving on the ship when it left spacedock on it's emergency run to engage Nero. That the new captain cannot be any number of the active duty starfleet officers present in San Francisco.

Let me present it another way. I believe that the film Batman Begins did a great thing in introducing Gordon to the viewers as a young patrolman who comforts Bruce after his parents are killed. During the main body of the film he had previously been promoted to sergeant. After his outstanding leadership during the film he recieved a bump to Lt. This kind of storytelling MAKES SENSE. However, going from Lt to Commishiner in Dark Knight...eh...a stretch. The position (known in most depts as "Chief") is usually a mayor nominated position whose candidates are normally Captains, but a case can be made to promote an outstanding Lt. and catching the Joker might make sense in the fiction.

Kirk on the other hand was a misfit in this alternate verse. He cheated his way through the kobyashi Maru and while under investigation for his actions was suspended from duty. He stowed away on the Fleet Flagship with help from a medical cadet. Before it was all over, Pike makes him XO in the field (under overwhelming circumstances, yes I agree) and he becomes Capt. What should the logical result of this be then?

If it was my story Kirk would return to earth to complete his hearing. The tribunal would rule that Kirk's solution to the unwinnable exam was a valid solution and his actions against Nero further prove not only the exam solution, but Kirks brillance. For this he recieves his formal commission as an officer as Lt J. Grade and all other cadets on Enterprise recieve ensign. (Insert a graduation hat throwing scene) The next film will detail Kirks continuing outstanding service on a ship (Not the enterprise) and his growth like Gordon to be the captain of the enterprise by the end of a third film. And who cares if the "fleet" was destroyed by nero resulting in no ship other than the enterprise. I would never have allowed the story to destroy the fleet.

STORYMARK

Wednesday, May 20, 2009 3:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:

You need to see it again. When Captain Pike was leaving to surrender to Nero he promoted Kirk to First Officer, and he made Spock acting Captain. Spock was not thrilled about that, but Kirk earned that battlefield commission because he recognized what was really going on over Vulcan. Kirk saved all their lives, and also Pike knew that young Kirk had the potential and qualities of his father. After Spock attacked Kirk he relinquished command to Kirk, who became acting Captain. The entire crew was young, and that's typical of military situations, and a brand new starship. Nothing elementary schoolish here. Just great storytelling on an epic scale.

That explains a temporary field commission, sure. But I don't think there's any way in hell an organization like the Federation would then make that promotion permanent. Making a cadet Captain of the frakkin flagship is stretching credibility beyond it's limits.

That was one of the few problems I had with the script.

But I let is slide, knowing they were essentially unable to finish the script - The writer's strike went into effect in the middle of a re-write. Abrams commented several times durring filming that there were portions of the script he was unhappy with, but had no choice but to film what they had. I tend to think, with a little extra polish, issues like this promotion would have been worked out.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

Starfleet just lost all of their Galaxy class staarships in one fell swoop. Pike was about to do the same, except that Kirk's doggedness helped Pike realize his error.
Name on other person on board Enterprise who deserved to be in the Captains seat more - who had saved the entire ship, the entire crew, the entire remains of the fleet. No One. Not one single other person. Every single other person was perfectly willing to head into the slaughter even tho Kirk was telling them what a mistake it was.
A Battlefield Promotion is givien under the harshest conditions, where the mettle of the man is most gratly tested.
Kirk was the only person suited to fill that chair after Pike, and that is why Pike promoted him to first Officer, knowing full well he was second in command after Spock. If you were an Admiral and did not realize the wisdom of this, you need to be decommisioned or retired post hence.
Now, Spock ejecting him from the ship - that was lousy storytelling.

Did you even read what I wrote....? Again, you're talking the field commission in a time of emergency. And I agree, it works in that context, because there was no-one else to step-up.

I am talking about the end, when they officially put him in permanent command. I highly doubt there was not ONE single officer in ALL of Starfleet whith more experience than Kirk. That is where this falls apart.

A field commission is for times of emergency. And no matter how well he did with that command, he would not be given permanent command of the flagship as a cadet. It's just silly.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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