Dollhouse Deathwatch

POSTED BY: piratenews
UPDATED: Monday, May 18, 2009 20:13
VIEWED: 7856
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BLACKOUTNIGHTS

Friday, May 15, 2009 7:16 PM

I thought Dollhouse was spot-on for epic storytelling more so than anything Whedon's ever done. That's because of the ethical dilemmas it explores — the nature of personality, the soul connected to the body, etc — and how the characters responded to what's being done.

Dollhouse is NOT light-hearted, easy-viewing television. It's extremely intelligent writing. Kind-of like "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" but with humans playing the alien bit. I enjoyed it immensely, and I'm glad FOX gave it a fighting chance.

I doubt it'll be renewed due to the poor ratings, and that's not the network's fault. I find it interesting that the first episodes, which weren't as good as the final ones, got more viewership and that as the story started getting really good, it started dropping off. It doesn't surprise me, I just find it interesting. Just proves all it takes is dumbed-down programming for the people, and that sickens me. Guess we can expect seven days a week of prime-time American Idol.

Christ, save us.

I read FOX and Whedon are in talks to try and make the Dollhouse story more viable. Not sure if that means more affordable or more appealing to a mainstream audience. Worries me it may be dumbed-down too.

I'm cool with the final episode. That's a fine place to end it and gives the potential to pick it back up if need be. I'm actually sorta shocked so many people over on these boards didn't enjoy the show, but I understand not everything's for everyone. Cas I don't like Buffy, never have. The whole vampire-slayer bit is just kinda, well sorry and no offense, but I think it's stupid. And Buffy is Whedon's most successful venture. I guess it just wasn't sci-fi enough for me.

Firefly, on the other hand, was sweet. While the stories sometimes tended to be simplistic, the characters made the show — the rogue, war-hero captain and his backup gunslinger, the unpredictable bad-guy who may backstab his partners or not, and the overall theme of a corrupt governmental power coupled with a healthy dose of sex was awesome. That was great TV! I haven't read any of the Firefly comics, don't want to. Seeing Firefly in graphic-novel form somehow cheapens the experience for me, and I'm a comic fanboy too. I just don't think that's the right medium for that story. The actors made it more vivid than comics ever could.

Haven't seen the new movie Star Trek yet either. I'm going to, but I have an awful feeling Trek's been dumbed-down to make it more appealing to a mass audience. Scares the crap out of me, but I'm not a Trekkie, so no biggie.

Wolverine sucked ass too. What was with those idiotic claws in the mirror. And Deadpool was nothing like I remembered him. Gambit was kinda cool though, kinda-sorta.

Got big hopes for G.I. Joe though. That looks awesome if they've got a good story to go with those special effects. As far as I'm concerned, they could just cut the dialogue and give the whole movie to a two-hour, silent Snake Eyes infiltration and I'd be happy. I know, I know. Sounds really, really, really more dumbed-down than anything else. But God! That'd be so cool.

Huh? What?

PIRATENEWS

Friday, May 15, 2009 10:47 PM

Serenity is on SciFi Channel again, 2nd time in 2 days.

Does that not bode well?

BYTEMITE

Friday, May 15, 2009 11:39 PM

GWEK: Joss already had five seasons of Dollhouse planned out, if not written, with careful finales for each season that both could be cliffhangers but also felt like they had resolution, in case the show were canceled. He already had the pilot episode written when he presented it to Fox, so he was able to use the money normally used for a pilot to pay for the elaborate dollhouse set.

I'd say he put MORE work into Dollhouse than Firefly, because he didn't want it to fail.

GWEK

Saturday, May 16, 2009 2:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
GWEK: Joss already had five seasons of Dollhouse planned out, if not written, with careful finales for each season that both could be cliffhangers but also felt like they had resolution, in case the show were canceled. He already had the pilot episode written when he presented it to Fox, so he was able to use the money normally used for a pilot to pay for the elaborate dollhouse set.

I'd say he put MORE work into Dollhouse than Firefly, because he didn't want it to fail.

I respectfully disagree.

And regardless of how much he may have planned, he didn't life with DOLLHOUSE for nearly as long. The idea was born, what, a year ago? Maybe eighteen months?

It's not an idea that percolated in his head for YEARS, as both BUFFY and FIREFLY did.

He may have as much intellectual investment in DOLLHOUSE as the other seasons (and don't forget, he had SEVEN years of FIREFLY planned, not a piddly five

), but I'm pretty sure he didn't give the same EMOTIONAL investment. Just listen to him in interviews. When he talks about FIREFLY, you can tell its something he LOVES.

With DOLLHOUSE? Not so much. Now, that's not to say that he won't give DOLLHOUSE his all, but I just don't see him withdrawing into writing exile if it ends prematurely...

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

BYTEMITE

Saturday, May 16, 2009 4:42 AM

He told his actors that Firefly would have as long a run as Buffy (7 seasons) but did he have it planned out for seven seasons?

Did he have Buffy planned out that long?

He said outright (as I've seen from newsposts on this site) that he has definitely a five year plan for Dollhouse.

There's nothing wrong with not having it planned out in advance. Lots of good writers let the story evolve, and Firefly was kind of a fun series. Lots you could write impromptu. But I don't think we have any evidence to say that he worked on Firefly MORE. In fact, the documented evidence indicates otherwise.

GWEK

Saturday, May 16, 2009 3:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
He told his actors that Firefly would have as long a run as Buffy (7 seasons) but did he have it planned out for seven seasons?

Did he have Buffy planned out that long?

He said outright (as I've seen from newsposts on this site) that he has definitely a five year plan for Dollhouse.

There's nothing wrong with not having it planned out in advance. Lots of good writers let the story evolve, and Firefly was kind of a fun series. Lots you could write impromptu. But I don't think we have any evidence to say that he worked on Firefly MORE. In fact, the documented evidence indicates otherwise.

"A five year plan" likely means that he has has the broad story arcs mapped out in his mind... and, yes, he's said that he had a seven-year plan for FIREFLY.

I don't know if you write yourself, or if you know anything about writing for TV, so I hope the following will come off as condescending.

As a writer/creator, it's often the story ideas that you live with for a long time that get the most emotional investment. They're the ones you think about and dream of for years (in Joss's case, Buffy and Firefly).

That's why, to some extent, many musicians suffer from the "sophomore curse": you have your entire lifetime to write your first album, but only a year or so to write the second...

When I say Joss had more invested in FIREFLY, I mean that it's a show that, as a creator, he contemplated for quite some time. The same does not appear to be true of DOLLHOUSE.

Which is not to say that shows will lesser emotional investment AREN'T successful. J.J. Abrams, for example, did not originate the concept of LOST and initially turned the show down. Indeed, he only did the show when ABC offered him a huge amount of money and promised to take a look at the pilot for the show he ACTUALLY wanted to do...

As for TV writing: While a good series will have the outline of the three acts mapped out at the beginning (including, likely, rough synopses of key episodes), most later episodes will be written as the series evolves. Episodes in a serialied series like FIREFLY need to be written to follow previous episodes, and since episodes often change during the creative process, sometimes dramatically, episodes written early are simply more episodes that need to be re-written later.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

KWICKO

Saturday, May 16, 2009 3:35 PM

Yup, Gwek, I tend to agree. It seems to me that Joss's shows generally have one long "season arc" story line, two or three "sub-arcs", four to six "mini-arcs", and then every episode has its own self-contained episode arc. It's a hell of a juggling act keeping all those balls in the air at once without dropping any of them, but he does tend to pull it off so very well, weaving and intermingling them all until a beautiful tapestry of storytelling comes out as the finished season. And when given the chance, you'll even see one huge overlying story arc that defines the entire series, as with Buffy and Angel. Sadly, we never got to see enough of that with Firefly, but maybe we'll get more of it with Dollhouse. Cross your fingers.

And it's to Joss's great credit that others have followed that lead, most notably Rob Thomas with Veronica Mars, which Joss himself just loved. Sadly, VMars suffered in its final season, where they knew they were under the gun and on the chopping block, and the writing definitely suffered, because it felt like every episode, they were just casting about looking for some storyline that would grab viewers, instead of following their arcs.

Having to rewrite a bit is expected, but writers still want to hew close to their original outlines for their story arcs whenever and wherever possible. The best of them go in with a clear idea of exactly where they're going, and the only things that change are the specific steps they take on their route to that destination. Think of it as mapping out your directions for a cross-country journey; you may hit a detour or two, and it can change the vibe of the trip a bit, but you still want to arrive at the same place when the journey's over.

It's exactly the feel I *DON'T* get from a show like Heroes or Lost, but I definitely DO get from Supernatural and, to a lesser extent, Chuck.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

BYTEMITE

Saturday, May 16, 2009 3:45 PM

All of which sounds about how I'd expect and what I've been saying how the story writing process goes. And you weren't condescending (I'm not sure why you'd want to be, or if that was a typo... Have I for some reason earned your contempt for stating these opinions?).

I'm saying that you seem to be basing your belief in Joss not planning Dollhouse out as carefully as Firefly or not putting as much work into the concept because you don't LIKE Dollhouse or the concept. We don't have the evidence to say that, and in fact my impression seems to be the exact opposite.

GWEK

Saturday, May 16, 2009 4:02 PM

A season, like an episode, is composed of three acts. The first act, "set-up," is usually longer than the other acts (8-10 episodes of the 22-episode season). With an expect like Joss, the themes of the season may not be immediately apparent at this point, but--in hindsight--all the important thematic elements are laid out.

The second act, "complication, confrontation, or conflict," runs through the middle portion of the season and will often have it's own solid story arc while also putting in place the elements for the final episodes. This act is further complicated by the the fact that the middle of the season (hence, a hiatus cliffhanger) often falls within this act, so there's a SECOND story peak in the middle.

The third act, "resolution," is usually the shortest act (4-6 episodes), as well as the most tightly scripted. One episode often leads directly into the next, with each episode ending with a cliffhanger.

For example, Season Seven of Buffy follows this classic structure: act one runs ten episodes, ending with Buffy's first confrontation with the Turok-Han. Act two introduces the Potentials in full force and puts a huge spin on the story with them. The act ends with the dramatic confrontations with Wood and Spike (seven episodes total). The final act is 5 episodes long, beginning with the return of Willow and the introduction of a new enemy in the form of Caleb.

This season actually shows some of the necessary flexibility on the part of the writers. I'm pretty sure that Caleb was created for Nathan Fillion (it seems possible that the original intention was to have Robin Wood serve as the "hand of the First Evil"). These are changes that could only have occurred AFTER the cancellation of FIREFLY midway through the season.

As for Rob Thomas and others following Joss's lead... Sorry, but that structure has been around for a good long time. One could argue that Chris Carter's X-FILES is the show to which most "modern serialized programs" owe their current incarnation. Carter did not originate, but certainly help popularize, the mixing of mythology episodes and standalones (which is where FIREFLY and VERONICA MARS both start out), and also helped pioneer the idea of shooting each episode like a "mini-movie."

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

GWEK

Saturday, May 16, 2009 4:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'm saying that you seem to be basing your belief in Joss not planning Dollhouse out as carefully as Firefly or not putting as much work into the concept because you don't LIKE Dollhouse or the concept. We don't have the evidence to say that, and in fact my impression seems to be the exact opposite.

Please note that I never said ANYTHING about Joss's planning of DOLLHOUSE (except to point out the reality of the fact that, say, the third season finale isn't already written)... Nor at any point did I address my own opinion of the concept of DOLLHOUSE (so I;m not sure where you're getting that from).

Simply put: Joss didn't spend as much time thinking about (caring about?) DOLLHOUSE before he started as he did with BUFFY or FIREFLY. And the point of noting THAT, is that while Joss may have a significant intellectual investment in DOLLHOUSE, he doesn't necessarily have the same EMOTIONAL investment (Which you an see in the interviews: when FIREFLY was under the gun, he was desperately doing whatever he could to save it; with DOLLHOUSE, he was far more philsophical, sort of "Hope we get to do more, but it's been a good run so far...").

Emotional investment does NOT necessarily equal amount of work (and all of THIS goes back to my original point that if DOLLHOUSE were cancelled, there's no reason to believe that Joss would go through the stages of grief that he seemed to do with FIREFLY).

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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