Ten Reasons Gay Marriage Is Wrong

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UPDATED: Friday, June 12, 2026 14:40
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KIRKULES

Saturday, May 2, 2009 1:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
I think the response here to my use of the term "promiscuous" is telling in the reason this whole dispute exists. Some think that there's nothing wrong with single people having many partners and others like myself think it is destructive to their mental well-being and lessens the chances that they will be able to enter into a stable lifetime partnership.

What I don't understand is why you think gay people who have multiple partners is any different than the straights who have been screwing around for thousands of years. The "sanctity" of marriage has been polluted by heterosexuals since the institution was invented.

I don't think it's worse when gays are promiscuous, I think they are more frequently promiscuous. The point is that if you take two groups with different rates of promiscuity and make them one group then the group with the higher rate increases the overall average of the end group. Even in my original post I eluded to the fact that the trend for society was negative pre gay marriage.

2BY2GINGERBLUE

Saturday, May 2, 2009 2:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
I call bullshit, Kirk.

No offense, but expressing an obviously clueless opinion based on a fallacy of perception doesn't exactly endear those folk to ya, Kirk.

What specifically have I said that is untrue. I could be all politically correct about the subject and pretend that Gay males are not promiscuous but that doesn't change the facts. Are you saying that will all change when they can marry? I have had a few Gay friends and they have no problem with acknoleging the simple fact that Gay males are more promiscuous, why is it so important to dismiss it other than for PC purposes. I'm having a problem figuring out exactly what everyone here is disputing, so I guess you're correct about me being "clueless".

I have lots of straight friends who have way more unprotected promiscuous sex than I do, and I do not devalue their choice of lifestyle.

KWICKO

Saturday, May 2, 2009 3:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:

I don't think it's worse when gays are promiscuous, I think they are more frequently promiscuous. The point is that if you take two groups with different rates of promiscuity and make them one group then the group with the higher rate increases the overall average of the end group. Even in my original post I eluded to the fact that the trend for society was negative pre gay marriage.

Ummm... I don't think you're looking at the averages correctly. If you take a high-promiscuity group and a low-promiscuity group (and I'm giving your argument the benefit of the doubt, even though you haven't clearly shown any such pre-dispositions for either group), and you average them together, you don't increase the average for the end group - you GET the average for the end group! That's why it's the average, because you've averaged two groups.

Now, you can say it would raise the average for the LOW group if you'd like, and that might have some validity. But I can just as easily say that conversely, it would LOWER the average for the HIGH group. It's just as valid. You claim it makes straight people more promiscuous, and I can claim that it makes gay people less so.

Of course, that's even presupposing that you have a valid starting point, which I'm in no way certain that you do. You haven't cited anything other than anecdotal "evidence" based on things like "well, everybody knows" and "everyone says". Hey, everybody knew Saddam had WMD, too... right? See what happens when you follow the herd?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

KIRKULES

Saturday, May 2, 2009 5:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 2by2gingerblue:

I have lots of straight friends who have way more unprotected promiscuous sex than I do, and I do not devalue their choice of lifestyle.

That's unfortunate for your friends, but at least you provide a good example for them. One of my best friends is a promiscuous hetero and I constantly tell him that he's a slut and will die alone and unhappy. You should tell your friends the same thing. Being tolerant doesn't mean accepting any behavior no matter how destructive it is. My friend is a great guy but I dislike his lifestyle and don't what to see him harmed by it.

KIRKULES

Saturday, May 2, 2009 6:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"... it's kind of offensive to me when the two things are linked ..."

I don't think all men gay men were 'made' that way by their mothers. I have met many gay men who I figured were born that way. The link - between gay-ness and sadistic sexual abuse by the mother - was made by those two men themselves. What can I say ? I figure they're the ones who would know.

I think this article http://www.healthyplace.com/gender/depression-and-gender/homosexuality
-and-mental-health-problems/menu-id-59/ has some very interesting observations about the causes of mental illness in Gay males. It even deals with why promiscuity is so detrimental to the mental health of Gays. I found the part about the downside of stopping the diagnosis of homosexuality interesting also.

HKCAVALIER

Saturday, May 2, 2009 9:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
I think this article http://www.healthyplace.com/gender/depression-and-gender/homosexuality
-and-mental-health-problems/menu-id-59/ has some very interesting observations about the causes of mental illness in Gay males.

Another McCarthyesgue pathologizing by association. Because homosexuality is associated with various psychological difficulties, homosexuality must be THE CAUSE of those psychological difficulties! OF COURSE!

Trouble is, you could make similar arguments about how being female causes all sorts of psychological disorders men never complain of. Better arguments have been made to explain that black people are inherently more violent than whites. Again, the right grabs ahold of a favorite scapegoated class and gerrymanders a way for them to be the cause of their own troubles.

"Social stigma" doesn't even BEGIN to cover a culture's attitudes about homosexuality. I've known a lot of gay men and seen a lot of pain and sorrow in gay culture around not having children--not having the right to marry their real partners, not being able to openly father a child.

Most men, gay or straight, at some point in their lives, dream of becoming a father one day. Being gay in a heterocentrist world interferes with the dreams of fatherhood of gay boys. Straight culture tends to "tolerate" homosexuality only as far as straight culture has allowed gays to express it. Straight culture is comfortable with the gay libertine, partying every night of the week--not so much, the gay couple down the street raising a son together. Until every gay boy can look forward to marrying and raising a child if he likes, with his true love, gay psychology will be oppressed by the dominant heterosexist model.

I see gay culture finally shifting, finding peace in the not too distant future--when gay couples are respected as much as straight, and gay parents will simply be another expression of the universal human need for family.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

KIRKULES

Sunday, May 3, 2009 12:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Until every gay boy can look forward to marrying and raising a child if he likes, with his true love, gay psychology will be oppressed by the dominant heterosexist model.

Do you advocate human cloning or the use of females as reproductive tools for the betterment of "gay psychology".

Quote:

I see gay culture finally shifting, finding peace in the not too distant future--when gay couples are respected as much as straight, and gay parents will simply be another expression of the universal human need for family.

I hope you're right, but given the trend in the Straight comunity I see no reason to be optimistic for Gays. I can however see a future where respect for traditional marriage has decreased to the point that Gay civil unions are equally respected/disrespected.

KWICKO

Sunday, May 3, 2009 12:54 AM

Quote:

Do you advocate human cloning or the use of females as reproductive tools for the betterment of "gay psychology".

Only about as much as I advocate "the use of females as reproductive tools" for the betterment of childless straight couples. Straight couples use surrogates fairly often; are you trying to say that it would be wrong, or MORE wrong, for gay couples to avail themselves of the same services?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

KIRKULES

Sunday, May 3, 2009 1:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Do you advocate human cloning or the use of females as reproductive tools for the betterment of "gay psychology".

Only about as much as I advocate "the use of females as reproductive tools" for the betterment of childless straight couples. Straight couples use surrogates fairly often; are you trying to say that it would be wrong, or MORE wrong, for gay couples to avail themselves of the same services?

Mike

I see surrogacy as wrong whether is for Straight or Gay couples. Offering a woman money to have a child could be exploitative in some case where there was no other economic option for the woman. It also leads to bidding wars for babies, with the baby going to the highest bidder and not the best family. Gays already use surrogacy, the scale required for any Gay who wants a baby to have one just isn't realistic without many more women being exploited.

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, May 3, 2009 1:48 AM

Quote:
I've known a lot of gay men and seen a lot of pain and sorrow in gay culture around not having children--not having the right to marry their real partners, not being able to openly father a child.

Meh, being straight and sterile is harsh enough, especially in light of facing the same difficulties over not being of an "offically-approved" religious belief. *hissss*

And no, I ain't NEVER lettin that go, that they ASKED was cruel enough, but what came after oughta be criminal.

Hell with surrogacy, if they didn't make adoption such a goddamn fucking nightmare there'd be no need to resort to it.

-F

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