Mexican flu cases rising by the 100's, deaths certain to occur.

POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Saturday, May 2, 2009 01:18
VIEWED: 5692
PAGE 1 of 1

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:07 PM

The worst is yet to come.

RUE

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:12 PM

"deaths certain to occur"
You dolt. Deaths have ALREADY occurred.

You have to make the predictions BEFORE the events for them to count.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:16 PM

Speaking state side, simpleton.

State side.

KWICKO

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"deaths certain to occur"
You dolt. Deaths have ALREADY occurred.

You have to make the predictions BEFORE the events for them to count.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

I just got the weirdest look from my wife - I read this and giggle-snorted out loud!

RUE

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:30 PM

Maybe you might want to check your title there, genius. Does is say ANYTHING about the US ?

Oh, and btw, deaths have already occured 'stateside'. Keep up, or look like the follow-along you are.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

WHOZIT

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:32 PM

We'll be fine because here in the states we have somthing called "Medicine", in Mexico they pour chicken blood on you then hit you with a stick.

KWICKO

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Speaking state side, simpleton.

State side.

Once again, Rappy chides everyone else for his own stupidity. How stupid of us not to have known that in RappyWorld™, death doesn't count unless it occurs in the U.S. We should have known what he thought he clearly meant, not what he typed!

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
We'll be fine because here in the states we have somthing called "Medicine", in Mexico they pour chicken blood on you then hit you with a stick.

Lack of sleep has set in. I find that funny.

KWICKO

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by whozit:
We'll be fine because here in the states we have somthing called "Medicine", in Mexico they pour chicken blood on you then hit you with a stick.

Lack of sleep has set in. I find that funny.

I slept fine, and I found it funny, too. Wrong, but funny. The Zit may have the line of the day!

SIGNYM

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:39 PM

It's a flu.

Get over it!

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

KWICKO

Tuesday, April 28, 2009 11:42 PM

Don't people die every year in the U.S. from the flu?

Is this one really worse than most, or is it just the hype?

SIGNYM

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:03 AM

I think it's mostly hype.

The major factor that concers me is "mortality": how many people who get the flu die. The only way to know THAT is to know the underlying rate of infection and the number of deaths. Mexico hasn't clue about either one. Most of their reported deaths have been unconfirmed as to the cause, and they have absolutely no idea whether they have a thousand infections, or a million- or more. So far this looks a lot better than SARS.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

KWICKO

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:09 AM

Or, as Jon Stewart noted, you're still more likely to die from "Bullet Flu" in Mexico - and Bullet Flu is airborne. :)

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:11 AM

Oh, what I was talking about... it's actually called Case Fatality Ratio.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

RUE

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:14 AM

"Using new and improved statistical models, CDC scientists estimate that an average of 36,000 people ... die from influenza-related complications each year in the United States. In addition, about 11,000 people die per year from respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), a virus that causes upper and lower respiratory tract infections primarily in young children and older adults. The study demonstrates that most deaths caused by RSV occur in the elderly."

These are significant numbers.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:44 AM

Gotta ask, I have about no data on use of focused sonics to break up crystalline viral structures, and what little I got is way beyond my limited understanding of the topic...

Any input from you scientific types ?

-F

RUE

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:58 AM

I've not heard of that. Sorry.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 1:00 AM

Me neither!

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

KIRKULES

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 1:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Using new and improved statistical models, CDC scientists estimate that an average of 36,000 people ... die from influenza-related complications each year in the United States. In addition, about 11,000 people die per year from respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), a virus that causes upper and lower respiratory tract infections primarily in young children and older adults. The study demonstrates that most deaths caused by RSV occur in the elderly."

These are significant numbers.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

I'd bet that 90% of those deaths come from Fall/Winter flu. I seems like Spring/Summer flu's are always less infectious because of weather conditions. We're probably lucky that this outbreak waited tell Spring.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 1:11 AM

I think this is very much a wait-and-see situation. Over a hundred people became ill in NY and none died. It's not very deadly, but the symptoms sound awful.

There is one thing to keep in mind, though: Viruses can and do mutate, so this MAY become more virulent (deadly) over time. OTOH, it could also become less so.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

RUE

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 1:54 AM

There is also the potential that the virus will establish a residual infected population and smolder along for now, only to and re-emerge with a bang later.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FREMDFIRMA

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:07 AM

Really ?

STUDIES ON THE SONIC TREATMENT OF TOBACCO MOSAIC VIRUS
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2147084

This and two studies from 1934 are all I've been able to find on the topic, and mind that such had to have been with some SERIOUSLY primitive technology in light of the fact that we do use focused sonics on some kidney stones without harm to the patient these days.

I've passed this on to the GeekFarm and they're hoppingly excited about the possibilities, which if they get a decent viable test series up and running, they've agreed to pass on to the NIH in the interests of public health.

But I *know* there's been other research done on this stuff, I just don't have the background to find it.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:37 PM

1st death in US. Child was 23 months old, and family was "visiting" other family members , who certainly were LEGAL immigrants, we must assume.

Sure.

Secretary DHS Napolitano Reluctant to Continue Tightened Border Security in Face of Swine Flu Threat

April 28, 2009
RightSideNews.com

As the death toll from Swine Flu in Mexico keeps rising, currently at 159, President Obama asks Congress for $1.5 billion to fight the fast-spreading disease. Confirmed cases of Swine Flu in the United States now totals 66.

It seems difficult to believe that Federal U.S. officials may be backing down from any further securing of the borders. Their attitude, in essence, that as the flu seems to be spreading so rapidly that further restriction at the borders would not help. This could be imprudent in light of the rising death toll in Mexico. Public officials seem more intent on minimizing concern, than on reducing the threat of additional exposure. An Associated Press headline reads : "Mexico death toll stabilizes as epidemic spreads" the article stating that this virus is going to spread regardless of any precautions taken to contain it.

Regardless of the current spread of the disease in the United States, any and all efforts to reduce or eliminate additional infection from apparent point of origin would seem reasonable, if only to control new exposure in order to keep the virus at existing levels, instead of allowing additional risk. Citing that the death toll has "leveled off" seem to make that the bench mark for breathing a collective sigh of relief and determiniation that we must just deal with the inevitable spread, forgetting about any efforts to stop additional or new exposure by border quarrantine.

At this time there are no reported deaths from the fast-spreading virus in the United States. This should be cause enough to continue, if not strengthen, the precaution of keeping tighter border scrutiny in place to reduce the chances of additional infection, at least until Mexico is able to gain better control of the epidemic.

RUE

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 6:46 PM

"This could be imprudent in light of the rising death toll in Mexico."

Or, falling ...

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/original/article_212226564.shtml

Swine Flu Death Toll 7 NOT 150 + - World Health Organization Responds
by Jack Ryan

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:17 PM

Then why is the office of the W.H.O. one step away from declaring an end to everything, everywhere ?

RUE

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:33 PM

Oh dear. Rap, you really must get a clue.

Swine flu: What do the World Health Organisation's pandemic alert levels mean?
The World Health Organisation has a numbered alert level scale, by which it measures the spread of diseases such as swine flu.

Phase 4: Human-to-human transmission of an animal or human-animal influenza virus able to sustain community-level outbreaks has been verified. Countries are advised to "activate contingency plans".

Phase 5: The same identified virus has caused sustained community-level outbreaks in two or more countries in one WHO region. A pandemic is officially under way.

Phase 6: In addition to the criteria defined in Phase 5, the same virus has caused sustained community level outbreaks in at least one other country in another WHO region.

During phases five and six, countries are advised to "implement contingency plans for health systems at all levels".

***************************************************************
WHO: Getting closer to a pandemic

The World Health Organization's Gregory Hartl issued this warning: "We are a significant step closer to a pandemic. Phase four again is a kind of a turning point phase," Hartl said.

The World Health Organization says swine flu is a highly contagious acute respiratory disease of pigs. But this virus is different.

"This particular virus, this H1N1 that we're calling swine flu has genetic elements from a human influenza, genetic elements from a pig influenza and genetic elements from an avian influenza," Dr. Fauci explained. "They all come together and you have this brand new virus that we've never seen before."

***************************************************************
So Rap - if a hurricane was coming - would you board your windows up before or afer it hit ? Would you stock up on supplies before or after it hit ? If it was bad enough to evacuate the area, would you do that before or after it hit ? Would you want the government to get its emergency teams prepared before or after it hit ?

Do you think there is value in being prepared before an event, or would you wait till after ?

Would you monitor the progress of a potential pandemic, or not ? Would you prepare for it before, or after, it hit ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

So Rap - if a hurricane was coming - would you board your windows up before or afer it hit ? Would you stock up on supplies before or after it hit ? If it was bad enough to evacuate the area, would you do that before or after it hit ? Would you want the government to get its emergency teams prepared before or after it hit ?

Do you think there is value in being prepared before an event, or would you wait till after ?

Would you monitor the progress of a potential pandemic, or not ? Would you prepare for it before, or after, it hit ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

I'm pretty far inland, but since Obama doesn't even care about white people, I don't know what I'd do.

( You see, if Kanye West can say that about Bush, then it makes as much sense as me claiming Obama doesn't care about me. )

RUE

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:00 PM

Keep reading dude - there was more than hurricanes in there.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:02 PM

and yet...

the WHO has released a report saying that ONLY 7 deaths have occured.

Not the 152 or whatever they claimed earlier.

RUE

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:32 PM

"Not the 152 or whatever they (WHO) claimed earlier."

WHO never claimed '152 or whatever'. Mexican officials did. WHO is disputing that figure.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

KWICKO

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 9:03 PM

Quote:

1st death in US. Child was 23 months old, and family was "visiting" other family members , who certainly were LEGAL immigrants, we must assume.

Sure.

Well, you should assume so unless you've got evidence to the contrary. Or does the presumption of innocence only apply to white people in your pathetic little racist world?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

KWICKO

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 9:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I'm pretty far inland, but since Obama doesn't even care about white people, I don't know what I'd do.

( You see, if Kanye West can say that about Bush, then it makes as much sense as me claiming Obama doesn't care about me. )

Well, you're right - Obama DOESN'T care about you. But that has nothing to do with you being white. It has more to do with you being an asshole partisan shill for goobers like Rush Limbaugh...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

KIRKULES

Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Not the 152 or whatever they (WHO) claimed earlier."

WHO never claimed '152 or whatever'. Mexican officials did. WHO is disputing that figure.

***************************************************************

Why would WHO dispute the Mexican numbers, you wouldn't think there would be any reason for the Mexicans to exaggerate. Maybe they're just having a hard time confirming the deaths are from flu, with all the Chicken blood and bruises.

RUE

Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:05 AM

Do you have anything intelligent to contribute ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

OUT2THEBLACK

Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Or, as Jon Stewart noted, you're still more likely to die from "Bullet Flu" in Mexico - and Bullet Flu is airborne. :)

Mike

Yes, but they have a medicine for that...It's called PlomoFlu !

OUT2THEBLACK

Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
There is also the potential that the virus will establish a residual infected population and smolder along for now, only to and re-emerge with a bang later.

That's right...

This is really only a 'beta test' version...It will take a while before it has been perfected to the desired extent , to produce the intended results...

AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:25 AM

hey kwickie

Fuck you, asshole. There was nothing remotely 'racist' in my remark. Stop being such a dick head, for once.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:29 AM

Not a chance, O2b... Sonics, it's a virus, it's crystalline...

Got no time to go into it tho.

-F

OUT2THEBLACK

Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Gotta ask, I have about no data on use of focused sonics to break up crystalline viral structures, and what little I got is way beyond my limited understanding of the topic...

Any input from you scientific types ?

-F

You are seeming kind of sure of yourself for someone with 'about no data' ?

What are you even trying to say ?

Viruses are protein chains that are stray genetic material...They're not even technically 'alive' until introduced into a host organism...

While it may be possible ultrasound could be used against a virus , is there any in vivo clinical evidence of efficacy ?

I'd be more willing to bet on colloidal silver or nanosilver , but Big Pharma is suppressing and discrediting those...They'd do the same with sonics...

A frequent peeve of mine is when the MSM news talking heads ask stuff like , " Isn't there an antibiotic that works against this virus ? "

Or worse , " Scientists are working to develop an antibiotic against this virus..."

KWICKO

Thursday, April 30, 2009 3:20 AM

Quote:

A frequent peeve of mine is when the MSM news talking heads ask stuff like , " Isn't there an antibiotic that works against this virus ? "

Or worse , " Scientists are working to develop an antibiotic against this virus..."

Well, DUH! (Just kidding. Bear with me.)

A new antibiotic is a sought-after, sellable commodity. And it's got a finite useful life before it's no good anymore, or at the very least loses some effectiveness. So pushing antibiotics is ALWAYS good business, even if it's not good medicine. As I've noted before, there's much more money in TREATING diseases than in CURING them.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

KWICKO

Thursday, April 30, 2009 3:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
hey kwickie

Fuck you, asshole. There was nothing remotely 'racist' in my remark. Stop being such a dick head, for once.

Let's see... you automatically ASSUME that because someone's Hispanic, they must be illegal, because, ya know, they're all like that...

And yes, that really DOES come across as racist. So did the bit about Obama not caring about white people. What, did you NOT think Kanye West was a racist when he said it about Dubya?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

OUT2THEBLACK

Thursday, April 30, 2009 3:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

A frequent peeve of mine is when the MSM news talking heads ask stuff like , " Isn't there an antibiotic that works against this virus ? "

Or worse , " Scientists are working to develop an antibiotic against this virus..."

Well, DUH! (Just kidding. Bear with me.)

A new antibiotic is a sought-after, sellable commodity. And it's got a finite useful life before it's no good anymore, or at the very least loses some effectiveness. So pushing antibiotics is ALWAYS good business, even if it's not good medicine.

Mike

You have the rue/signyM penchant for overstating the stuff that's really obvious , especially when it's not particularly obvious to you...

Like , it seems you really missed a point back there...

NEWS FLASH !--- Antibiotics do not work against
viral illnesses...

There's a whole 'nuther class of meds for that...They're called , get this , anti-Virals !

Antibiotics are effective against bacterial illnesses...That's it...

KIRKULES

Thursday, April 30, 2009 3:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:

NEWS FLASH !--- Antibiotics do not work against
viral illnesses...

There's a whole 'nuther class of meds for that...They're called , get this , anti-Virals !

Antibiotics are effective against bacterial illnesses...That's it...

No disagreement, but many of those that die as a result of contracting a virus don't die from the virus, they die from a secondary bacterial infection.

OUT2THEBLACK

Thursday, April 30, 2009 3:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:

NEWS FLASH !--- Antibiotics do not work against
viral illnesses...

There's a whole 'nuther class of meds for that...They're called , get this , anti-Virals !

Antibiotics are effective against bacterial illnesses...That's it...

No disagreement, but a lot of those that die as a result of contracting a virus don't die from the virus, they die from a secondary bacterial infection.

Usually contracted in a hospital, as is the case with staph aureus or with MRSA...

Both of which have become more resistant to treatment , due to doctors over-prescribing antibiotics...

Doctors are dangerous , more dangerous than car wrecks , unless you need a doctor to save you after a car wreck...

Then they're still damn dangerous , as are hospitals...

Ever notice how at hospitals , a lot of folk walk in at the front , and every day , dead folk go out the back , feet first ?

AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

Let's see... you automatically ASSUME that because someone's Hispanic, they must be illegal, because, ya know, they're all like that...

And yes, that really DOES come across as racist. So did the bit about Obama not caring about white people. What, did you NOT think Kanye West was a racist when he said it about Dubya?

Mike

I assumed that, since they're FROM Mexico, and living in Texas, where folks can quite literally cross the border by simply walking over a patch of empty ground...yeah, it's reasonable to conclude that they MIGHT be here illegally. There are 12 to 20 million illegals in this country, you know. And since legal status has nothing to do w/ race, it's a matter of FOLLOWING THE LAW ( remember how important you folks keep saying that is ? ) , race is of zero significance here, what so ever.

So spare us all the P.C. bullshit, and just admit you're being a dick head for the sake of being a dick head.

And do you really need me to explain the Kanye West remark, in reference to Obama ? Wow. You really are that dense.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Then why is the office of the W.H.O. one step away from declaring an end to everything, everywhere ?

Job justification.

The laughing Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I assumed

Yes, you do a lot of that.

The laughing Chrisisall

KWICKO

Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I assumed that, since they're FROM Mexico, and living in Texas, where folks can quite literally cross the border by simply walking over a patch of empty ground...yeah, it's reasonable to conclude that they MIGHT be here illegally. There are 12 to 20 million illegals in this country, you know. And since legal status has nothing to do w/ race, it's a matter of FOLLOWING THE LAW ( remember how important you folks keep saying that is ? ) , race is of zero significance here, what so ever.

Race is of zero significance, huh? You just naturally - by your own admission, in your own words - assume that everybody from Mexico who enters Texas does so illegally. And that's not a racist assumption AT ALL, is it? Tell me, do you also assume that every American who visits Tijuana is there illegally, too? What about Americans who go into Canada? Do you assume they're illegals? Probably not.

Quote:
So spare us all the P.C. bullshit, and just admit you're being a dick head for the sake of being a dick head.

Being a dickhead for the sake of being a dickhead? Isn't that YOUR job, dickhead?

Quote:

And do you really need me to explain the Kanye West remark, in reference to Obama ? Wow. You really are that dense.

Do I need you to explain again how you're not racist, you just don't like people who aren't white? No, I totally get that. If you don't think Kanye West's remarks were racist, then cool - but I think you DO think he's a racist. Oddly, though, when you do the exact same thing, you DON'T think THAT is racist. You've somehow twisted things in your mind so much that in your world, a white person CAN'T be racist.

Maybe you should explain why remarks made by you are NOT racist, when you would call them racist if they were made by a black person. Can you clear that one up for us, AuRacist?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

KWICKO

Thursday, April 30, 2009 1:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

A frequent peeve of mine is when the MSM news talking heads ask stuff like , " Isn't there an antibiotic that works against this virus ? "

Or worse , " Scientists are working to develop an antibiotic against this virus..."

Well, DUH! (Just kidding. Bear with me.)

A new antibiotic is a sought-after, sellable commodity. And it's got a finite useful life before it's no good anymore, or at the very least loses some effectiveness. So pushing antibiotics is ALWAYS good business, even if it's not good medicine.

Mike

You have the rue/signyM penchant for overstating the stuff that's really obvious , especially when it's not particularly obvious to you...

Like , it seems you really missed a point back there...

NEWS FLASH !--- Antibiotics do not work against
viral illnesses...

There's a whole 'nuther class of meds for that...They're called , get this , anti-Virals !

Antibiotics are effective against bacterial illnesses...That's it...

Yup, I did miss that.

But it seems Big Pharma is still in the business of trying to sell you more drugs that you don't need, and that won't help. Your clarification rather proves my point...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:02 PM

Well, I'M ready for this plague...

The laughing Chrisisall

RUE

Thursday, April 30, 2009 3:22 PM

"Both of which have become more resistant to treatment , due to doctors over-prescribing antibiotics..."

And don't forget the stuff in animal feed - to make them grow faster and increase profit. Half of all antibiotics sold in the US is used in animal feed.

As for MRSA's origins, you might be interested to know that it first emerged over 4 decades ago, in Britain, and that antibiotic resistance genes were already prevalent in bacteria even back then.

However, over-treating people with antibiotics has no excuse, and putting antibiotics in animal feed is criminal greed.

http://runews.rockefeller.edu/index.php?page=engine&id=292

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, April 30, 2009 4:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
putting antibiotics in animal feed is criminal greed.

Rue, every time a company endangers the public for their profits, you call it greed...

The laughing Chrisisall

RIPWASH

Thursday, April 30, 2009 4:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
What about Americans who go into Canada?

Who in their right mind would want to go there?

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

RUE

Thursday, April 30, 2009 4:30 PM

Well, if you were sick there, at least you'd get cared for without paying out of pocket.

So maybe - people with medical conditions ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

RIPWASH

Thursday, April 30, 2009 4:32 PM

Nah . . . they just pick your pocket in your paycheck . . . with taxes and all.

Who knows? I don't. I have no idea what I'm saying. LOL

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

RUE

Thursday, April 30, 2009 4:35 PM

And yet - they pay less per person for healthcare for everyone than we pay for healthcare for a few.

THAT makes our system better ! B/c it costs more and does less !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

RIPWASH

Thursday, April 30, 2009 5:01 PM

But stuff like this:
http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/15524/Canadas_Medical_Night
mare.html

and

http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20040920/us-tops-canada-in-pos
t-heart-attack-care?action=related_link

and

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C132785%2C00.html

Make me more than just a little uneasy about moving to Canada for "free" healthcare.

Our system needs an overhaul, sure. Like many things here. But that system ain't one to particularly look up to. I'll take my chances for the time being and pay a bit more for the better/quicker treatment, I think.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

KWICKO

Thursday, April 30, 2009 5:32 PM

Are you not allowed to pay more for better/quick treatment in Canada?

I was under the impression that under Canada's system, EVERYONE had a bare-minimum level of care, but if you wanted to upgrade, you could.

Here, we have a bare minimum level, too - it's called "none".

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

SIGNYM

Thursday, April 30, 2009 6:47 PM

I find this seriously wrong

Quote:
A July 2004 study by the Vancouver-based Fraser Institute, Paying, More, Getting Less, concluded that after years of government control, the Canadian medical system is badly injured and bleeding citizens' hard-earned tax dollars. The institute compared health care systems in the industrialized countries in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) and found Canada currently spends the most, yet ranks among the lowest on such indicators as access to physicians, quality of medical equipment, and key health outcomes.

No, actually that would be THE UNITED STATES.

Here are the facts:

Quote:
In 2008, the United States will spend 17 percent of its gross domestic product (GDP) on health care. It is projected that the percentage will reach 20 percent by 2017. Although nearly 46 million Americans are uninsured, the United States spends more on health care than other industrialized nations, and those countries provide health insurance to all their citizens.
Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development

According to the stats, Canada's spending is indeed at the lower end of the scale and far below that of the USA. Any report which includes such egregious errors should be treated with tongs, rubber gloves and a gas mask!

FWIW_ I have several Canadian friends, and have been in touch with many parents of neurocompromised children in Canada. One of my friends (Ontario) was dx with non-Hodgkins lymphoma about about 45 y/o. He was treated immediately: surgery, chemo, radiation, and bone-marrow transplant. It was not a cheap regimen, but he got it all for free thru the govt. I HAVE heard about problems with access... in places like Alberta and Saskachewan... where the poulation is sparse and hospitals equally so. One of the biggest reasons that CANADIANS cite for their difficulties with healthcare is PROXIMITY TO THE USA.

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

RUE

Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:10 PM

Rip

And yet:

First link

"... Canada currently spends the most, yet ranks among the lowest on such indicators as access to physicians, quality of medical equipment, and key health outcomes."

Why did the study leave out US figures? Because the Canadian system performs better than the US system. In every metric you can think of - cost, coverage, overall lifespan, death-rate from treatable illness, vaccination rates, infant mortality --- anything you look at --- Canada does better. To say that Canada is worse than those other countries is not to make it better than the US.

"In 1999" Data is over 10 years old and irrelevant for this discussion.
But since you cited, it let's look at it anyway: 22,500 bypass surgeries (which do not affect death rate as the article implies, but comfort levels) were performed in Canada. In the province of Ontario (and BTW, I am always suspect of studies that don't compare apples to apples, but to zebras) 71 died + 121 removed list + 44 left = 236 total did NOT get bypasss surgery in Ontario. Since Ontario has roughly 50% of Canada's entire population, let's say it would have been 236 * 2 = 472 nationally. That is 2% of ALL potential bypass patients nationally. How does that compare to US figures ? Any idea ? Me neither. But considering that 30% of ALL people in the US were uninsured at that time, and many more were underinsured, I would guess it's a much larger percent than the Canadian one. And that makes the Canadian system a failure - how ?

Second link
"For the study, researchers reviewed death rates within five years after heart attack for 23,105 U.S. and 2,898 Canadian heart attack patients who were part of a clinical trial conducted in the early 1990s."

Two things -
One: Is that ALL heart atack patients on both countries ? NO - it is among a select group of patients WHO RECEIVED ONGOING CARE IN A STUDY. Many US patients receive NO CARE - because they can't afford it. It is a trusim that the US uses more high-tech procedures. It is ALSO a truism that many people in the US receive no care at all.
Two: Again, the data is from the the early 1990's. Canada has since revised it's heart-care protocols, and that data is meaningless for the purposes of current comaprisons.

As for your third link - oddly enough, the link within the FOX article which was supposed to take me to the original data source didn't work.

But I did find other information like this: "Canadian Medical Association champions private medicine". And WHO did the poll, again ?

And I found severely conflicting data, which disputes that story: "One-fourth of American respondents are either "very" or "somewhat" satisfied with "the availability of affordable healthcare in the nation" .... in Canada ... 57% are satisfied with the availability of affordable healthcare, including 16% who are very satisfied. Roughly 4 in 10 Britons are satisfied (43%), but only 7% say they are very satisfied (similar to the percentage very satisfied in the United States)."

Not to slam FOX news, but you need to vary your sources.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

RIPWASH

Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:23 PM

I bow to your medicinal intellectual know-how . . . still doesn't make me wanna move there, though

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

RUE

Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:28 PM

How close to the border do you live ? Where I came from - 5 miles away - people were packed against the figurative fence facing into Canada, like a cattle herd on the move. And where I am now - well I guess it's the Mexicans trying for the US. Only not so much, anymore.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:30 PM

Have you ever been there? It's nice. VERY nice. Much lower crime rate. The people are more polite. The whole place is cleaner and cities are actually fun places to be (the only problem seems to be they roll up the sidewalks Sunday 8PM!). More attention keeping things up. I don't get the feeling that everything there is hopelessly deteriorating, like I do over here. Canadians seem to think collective problems SHOULD be handled, instead of just tossing it to the "free market" and seeing what falls off.

I visit my Canadian friends as often as possible. I wouldn't mind moving there, but my hubby hates snow and cold... *sigh*

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

RIPWASH

Thursday, April 30, 2009 7:55 PM

To answer both of you...

Where do I live? Northern-ish Ohio. Small town (clinging to guns and religion kind of thing LOL). Don't get a chance to see many people clamboring to get into Canada.

Have I ever been to Canada? I was actually saying the above post tongue-in-cheekily. I've never been there, but would like to visit someday. I'm on the lower-middle class of the economic spectrum and can't afford too many trips like that. I can't make a substantive arguement AGAINST moving there this being the case.

You wanted more sources. I can give a couple more that I found . . . to which I'm sure you two will pick the dickens apart to show how incredibly ill-informed I am on the subject. Hey that seems to be my lot in life Ah well...

Here they are . . . NOT from Fox News, btw . . .

http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/hl856.cfm

And in case your interested the author of the Heritage.com article is:

Quote:
the founding President of the Atlantic Institute for Market Studies www.aims.ca, located in Halifax, Nova Scotia. Crowley is co-author of two Sir Antony Fisher Award-winning projects on the Canadian health care system. In recognition of his health care work, he was named to the the most influential provincial health care inquiry in Canada, the Mazankowski Committee. Former Canadian Deupty Prime Minister Don Mazankowski called Crowley the "intellectual architect" of the committee's report.

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/08/20/cma-healthcare.html

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

RUE

Thursday, April 30, 2009 8:39 PM

"I'm on the lower-middle class of the economic spectrum and can't afford too many trips like that."

I'll read your links with interest. In the meantime - many of my good-weather trips were by bicycle ! Others, by bus. Very few by car - usually a ride provided by someone else. That was the advantage of living so close by. International travel was cheap and easy !

It was the opposite of familiarity breeding contempt - generally, the closer one was to the border, the better Canada looked.

I second what SignyM said btw. And, I'll give you a tip in how to spot a Canadian a US crowd. Look for the ones walking with their heads up and looking around. They stand out from the general defensive US stance like day vs night.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

RIPWASH

Thursday, April 30, 2009 8:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And, I'll give you a tip in how to spot a Canadian a US crowd. Look for the ones walking with their heads up and looking around. They stand out from the general defensive US stance like day vs night.

That and I understand they actually do say "Sorry" (or "Sorey" with the accent and all

) quite a bit, even when it's their fault. LOL

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

SIGNYM

Thursday, April 30, 2009 8:52 PM

And they say "eh"? Quite a bit? It's not just a stereotype, eh? And they always sound like they're asking a question? Even when they're not?

BTW- Coming from northernish Ohio as you do, you'd find the landscape very familiar. I think you'd really like it (unless you hate northernish Ohio is which case...). Wish I could swing by and pick you up on my way there next time... it would be fun!

----------------------
We should have strapped him into a glider, filled it nose heavy w/ explosives, and dropped his Allah lovin' ass into a large, empty field. After which, release wild boars into the area so they could make good use of his remains. Now THAT's justice.- rappy

Yeah, that's what Sheikh Issa said. Seems you both have a lot in common.- signy

RIPWASH

Thursday, April 30, 2009 8:59 PM

Well that whole "Sorry" thing is actually from a story told by a Canadian (David Steinberg, I think) about a game he plays in elevators when he's with his daughter just to embarass her. He'll keep bumping into the other people to get them to say "sorry." He wasn't telling a joke, just a funny story.

I'm not trying to be stereotypical. Just what I heard/saw on TV. But they DO say "sorey" and "aboot." Sometimes it's blaringly obivious, sometimes it's subtle, but it's there. No offense to any Canadians out there! You can blame all the sterotype stuff on Bob and Doug McKenzie!!!

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

RUE

Thursday, April 30, 2009 9:28 PM

"You can blame all the sterotype stuff on Bob and Doug McKenzie!!!"

Eh ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

KWICKO

Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"You can blame all the sterotype stuff on Bob and Doug McKenzie!!!"

Eh ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Take off, hoser!

Yeah, I know a couple Canadians, and they DO say "eh" quite a bit. And they DO say "soary" and "aboot" - although it always sound to me more like their saying "a boat".

But that's no big. I say "dang" and "y'all" because I grew up in Texas, y'all.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:33 PM

I find em a very civilized and well mannered folk in general, not to mention amazingly tolerant of drunken michiganders - compared to detroit police the mounties are freakin saints.

S'funny, a while back I had a bit of spare time on my hands and some local friends offered to go hit up the "Windsor Ballet" - now me, being me, and outside of my varied specialties generally a blockhead, said sure, cause ballet is pretty cool to watch, the clockwork precision, the discipline of it, is quite fascinating.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Windsor+Ballet

Of course, then the rather rude shock when we get there and I discover the term has nothin to do with err, fine arts, one might say - not that the places ain't nice, but certainly not MY preferred theme of entertainment, much for the same reason Mal dislikes the fancy party in Shindig "The lie of it.."

At least my party was well-behaved, cause I got zero patience with anything that smacks of disrespect of women no matter their employment and they knew this... others were not so circumspect, however.

Places must make a lotta money to put up with us obnoxious assclowns from michigan, I guess, but really, they're quite decent folk, Canadians.

Now if only they'd quit passing off that decaffinated shite as mountain dew...
(For reasons beyond my understanding, there's no caffiene in "clear" sodas sold in Canada, they're weird that way)

-F

AURAPTOR

Thursday, April 30, 2009 11:57 PM

Quote:
Race is of zero significance, huh? You just naturally - by your own admission, in your own words - assume that everybody from Mexico who enters Texas does so illegally.

No, not everybody, but the odds are probably pretty good.

Quote:
And that's not a racist assumption AT ALL, is it?

No, not really. It's simply dealing w/ the odds. There's no hint or indication on MY part of any superiority by one race over another. That's racism. My comment, was, more correctly , bigoted. Learn the difference, and please make a note of it.

Quote:
Tell me, do you also assume that every American who visits Tijuana is there illegally, too?

No. They're there to SPEND money, for tequila, dancing, donkey shows(what ever those are ) and a fine tuck and roll.

Quote:
What about Americans who go into Canada? Do you assume they're illegals? Probably not.

Nope again. There to spend $$ on cheap prescription pills, toques and watch Auzzies ski nekkied on Australia Day.

WULFENSTAR

Friday, May 1, 2009 3:11 PM

It was once said that a black man would be president "when pigs fly". Indeed, 100 days into Obamas presidency....

Swine Flu.

heheheheh

STORYMARK

Friday, May 1, 2009 3:40 PM

Thanks Rappy, for giving us another thread to illustrate what a simple-minded dipshit you are. Can't even admit to a mistake, and then start throwing around assinine analogies (or, did Obama let an entire city full of white folk drown? No? Then you're full of shit, as per usual).

You never fail to set the bar ever lower for yourself and your sock puppets. Well done.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

ELVISCHRIST

Friday, May 1, 2009 4:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
It was once said that a black man would be president "when pigs fly". Indeed, 100 days into Obamas presidency....

Swine Flu.

heheheheh

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHHHh....\

hah.

You should e-mail that around to all your white friends, along with the picture of Air Force One rockin' on gold-plated dubs, and the one about Obama being just another black family on welfare living in government housing.

Ah, black jokes - they never get old, do they?

ELVISCHRIST

Friday, May 1, 2009 4:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AuRaptor:

My comment, was, more correctly , bigoted. Learn the difference, and please make a note of it.

At least you can admit that you're a bigot.

I have to wonder, though: is being a bigot better then being a racist? I'm not sure where they rank on the heirarchical scale.

Maybe Wulfenstar can help?

Don't tell me that my ship is coming in...
Time's running out the door you're running in.

RUE

Friday, May 1, 2009 5:00 PM

RIP

The report was made available through the Heritage Foundation. I think we all know enough about that organization to not need an introduction to its agenda.
The rest may need some explaining. And,while this may not be FOX news, it doesn't pretend to be unbiased:

"... the founding President of the 1) Atlantic Institute for Market Studies www.aims.ca, located in Halifax, Nova Scotia. 2) Crowley is co-author of two 3) Sir Antony Fisher Award-winning projects on the Canadian health care system. In recognition of his health care work, he was named to the most influential provincial health care inquiry in Canada, the 4) Mazankowski Committee. Former 5) Canadian Deupty Prime Minister Don Mazankowski called Crowley the "intellectual architect" of the committee's report."

1) AIMS is a conservative, free-market think tank in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada.
2) Brian Lee Crowley is the founding President of AIMS
3) Sir Antony Fisher International Memorial Awards awarded by the Atlas Foundation, a conservative think tank. "With a modest $4 million dollar budget in 2003 and a staff of eight, Atlas Economic Research Foundation is on a mission to populate the world with new "free market" voices."
4) Mazankowski Committee is a provincial (Alberta) committee.
5) (former) Canadian Deupty Prime Minister Don Mazankowski is a conservative.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

RUE

Friday, May 1, 2009 5:03 PM

I found both the CMA survey and the reporting on it to be problematic. When ALL the numbers aren't reported - and when the numbers that are reported seem to be chosen and described using inconsistent criteria - I get suspicious. Why the cherry-picking ? In addition, there were internal contradictions in this survey, as well as deep contradictions with the Heritage-reported survey.

The CMA has a stated agenda - and that is, to promote private, market-based medical practice.

CMA seventh annual national report card
1,001 Canadian adults

overall quality of health-care services
A - 35 % Atlantic provinces (high)
A - 14 % Quebec (low)
A - 21 %
B - 41 %
Total - 62 %
2006 - 67%

access to doctors
A - 29 % (called problematic by the article)
access to walk-in clinics
A - 26 % (called problematic by the article)
access for children
A - 22 % (called 'good' by the article)
access for seniors
A - 17 % (called 'good' by the article)
However, after calling the low-scoring access for children and seniors 'good', the article then went on to state that the higher scoring overall access was problematic. Additionally, the fact that B's, C's, D's and F's weren't reported creates a lack of context and promotes suspicion - what are they hiding ?

access to specialists
F - 21 %
access to (high technology) diagnostic tests
F - 19 %
evening \ weekend access
F - 21 %
mental health care access
F - 16 %
Additionally, the fact that A's, B's, C's, and D's weren't reported creates a lack of context and promotes suspicion - what are they hiding ?

It seems they got the following conclusion only by picking and choosing their data: '"The chief evolving concern is a lack of access to family doctors," CMA president Colin McMillan, told CBC News.'
***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

ELVISCHRIST

Friday, May 1, 2009 5:57 PM

Ladies and Gentlemen, AURaptor has left the building!

Thank ya vurrah much...

WULFENSTAR

Friday, May 1, 2009 7:16 PM

Yeah, cus making a joke...one that relys/is based on semantics... (Swine Flu-Swine Flew) is soooooo terrible.

asshole.

Elvis, Im glad you are dead. Stay that way.

STORYMARK

Friday, May 1, 2009 7:17 PM

One can be racist, and hide behind semantics at the same time, as you've just illustrated.

And yes, since your semantical argument is predicated on the fact that he's black - you are hiding, son.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

CITIZEN

Friday, May 1, 2009 7:23 PM

To steal a phrase:
Everyone! Panic now while there's still time!

RIPWASH

Friday, May 1, 2009 7:23 PM

Okay, Rue . . . So now that I've embarrassed myself with references to apparently Conservative sources that you feel should be dismissed out of hand . . . (Just kidding) . . . .

***EDITED TO ADD - I honestly did not even think to check in to the one organizations political leanings (yes, I knew about Heritage, but thought it was interesting to note). Didn't even occur to me to investigate it. I swear It was a Canadian Medical organization and that's all I was looking for.***

Please enlighten me by providing sources you feel ARE credible on the subject matter.

You and Sig are, I believe (if I remember seeing it somewhere correctly) in some sort of research field. Is that correct? So I understand and concede that you guys inherantly (because of your vocation) know more than me on this subject. I'd appreciate reading through your sources on the matter. The only thing I WILL say is that the fact that a couple of the sources I came up with are by Canadian authors that lends more than a little credibility to the subject at hand (Canadian Healthcare) IMHO. My thought process is: why would they be writing about the dificulties of Canadian Healthcare when they are a part of the system that is apparently so much better than ours? Conservative or Liberal, honestly makes no difference to me when it comes to this. It really doesn't. I DO think there are problems with our healthcare system, but I think it's better than most. I think changes have to be made to our healthcare system (like getting rid of the insurance companies all together) to make everything more competitive and affordable, but WITHOUT government interferance and WITHOUT taxing everyone for it. IMHO.

Also . . . I got the feeling I hijacked this thread my comments on Canada that started this off. My apologies to all if it aggravates anyone.

Mal: You think she'll hold together?
Zoë: She's torn up plenty, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Could be bumpy.
Zoë: Always is

WULFENSTAR

Friday, May 1, 2009 7:24 PM

Ok, so you admit that its ok to joke about ANYTHING, ANYTHING....so long as it doesnt offend your prided "causes" (gays, blacks ect).

Fuck off.

It was funny.

STORYMARK

Friday, May 1, 2009 7:39 PM

Funny to rednecks who are all pissy for having a black President, sure.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

RUE

Friday, May 1, 2009 8:36 PM

Rip

I didn't have time to get to the longer article, though there are issues with it as well.

My original background is in healthcare. I worked a number of years in many different kinds of hospitals - small community (non-profit), large county, large private, university, federal, small private-practice associated, even learned about reservation hospitals ! - doing many different things. I've seen healthcare from the outside as a consumer, and from the inside as a producer. I've spent decades learning the minutia of policy and payment, of treatment and outcomes. I know Canadians and even spent quite a bit of time in Canada learning about Hospital for Sick Children (specifically). Since then I've made a study of healthcare systems.

I would be hard pressed to come up with ONE source for my information.

I suggest you do this: find the 'life tables' for several major first-world countries including the US (no later than 2006, b/c you want to be able to find complete sets of data). Look at life-expectancy and cause of death. Using google, for those same countries, find figures for vaccination rate and infant mortality. Also find figures for percent GDP spent on healthcare, and percent people covered.

You will find that the US has the lowest life expectancy and that death is overwhelmingly caused by preventable disease; highest infant mortality and lowest vaccination rates; spends the greatest percentage of GDP on healthcare, and covers only a fraction of the population, while the other countries cover everyone. Oh, and in addition, 30% of all health insurance dollars in the US go to profit and paperwork. And medical expenses is the leading cause of personal bankruptcy in the US.

The US without question spends more and covers fewer - and lack of care for everyone has a significant impact on population averages like life expectancy and infant mortality. Those are the facts of US healthcare. Other countries - who without exception DO have government-paid healthcare - do it better.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

RIPWASH

Friday, May 1, 2009 9:06 PM

Then I think it's safe to say that we both agree that drastic changes need to be made in our government and our healthcare in order for it to work.

Trust me, if I thought our government was capable of regulating healthcare, I would feel a bit more comfortable. But I don't think it can, so I'm not. And that's a generalized statement. I don't mean the current administration in particular, but government as it's been run for God knows how long. IMHO the Government has screwed up Social Security and won't budge on our tax laws (1200 pages of crap that hardly anyone can really understand). Things need to change if this country is going to stay strong economically and physically. But each side keeps fighting against each other to the point that very little actually gets done.

The fears I have may certainly be uneducated, but as it stands now, I don't want to be told by someone else where to go or who to see. I realize that HMO's say you can only go to certain people, but there are several to choose from. Perhaps these government regulated systems don't do that, but that's the perception many people like me have. There's a doctor in my town that I had to go see once (he was the only one accepting new patients at the time for some reason) and I definately would NOT have chosen him otherwise. He was basically a quack. His idea of a hearing test was to go to the other side of the room, turn his back to me and whisper, "Can you hear me?" I changed as soon as I could, I tell ya. He did not give me a great deal of confidence. Perhaps in a government regulated system, he wouldn't be allowed to practice? I don't know.

I agree with you that those articles may have picked and chose their information a certain way. That's certainly possible, but I also don't feel comfortable in completely dismissing what they did present out of hand either. You may not have, but you questiond the authenticity and that's perfectly okay. Apparently there ARE people in Canada who feel the system is inadequate, that the wait for certain things are too long, that the technology and treatment options aren't where they should be, etc. That's all I'm sayin'. I mean isn't it viable to say that if government restricts the amount of options available to keep things affordable, for example, that new experimental treatments will not be allowed under that system because of the expense even though it could save lives? And if that's the case what incentive would drug and research companies have to come up with new treatment options? Those are the types of things I'm hearing. If that's not true, I'd like your take on it. Here or in PM is fine Don't wanna hijack this any further and/or detract from the comments about racist humor. LOL

Mal: You think she'll hold together?
Zoë: She's torn up plenty, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Could be bumpy.
Zoë: Always is

WULFENSTAR

Friday, May 1, 2009 9:18 PM

"Don't wanna hijack this any further and/or detract from the comments about racist humor..."

So how is the joke I posted, racist?

Really? Im actually asking.

ELVISCHRIST

Friday, May 1, 2009 9:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Don't wanna hijack this any further and/or detract from the comments about racist humor..."

So how is the joke I posted, racist?

Really? Im actually asking.

Wulfenstar,

You're wife is Dominican if I recall correctly, right? She'll get a kick out of this joke then...

Why couldn't the Dominican Republic be the Promised Land?

Cuz they could never find three wise men or a virgin there!

Oh, here's another one:

What does a Dominican girl put behind her ears to let a guy know she's available?

Her feet!

How is that racist? I'm really asking?

RUE

Friday, May 1, 2009 9:34 PM

"IMHO the Government has screwed up Social Security ..."

How ? It's the ONE place the federal government is solvent ! Now, if the government could just stop raiding the till and consider repaying the money they took, it would stay that way.

"I don't want to be told by someone else where to go or who to see."

That IS pretty uneducated, I have to say. You have clearly been listening to the cough cough right-wing media. And to be clear - what I want and what the Obama administration wants are two different things. But in Canada, and elsewhere - you can see whoever you want. The difference is, there the government picks up the tab. (The government and the CMA have already negotiated a fee-for service schedule.)

"... I also don't feel comfortable in completely dismissing what they did present out of hand either."

I do, based on my personal experience and information - which is why I encourage you to research the topic. Don't take my word for it - check out neutral unbiased sources of hard data. The more you learn, the more you will understand that other countries DO do it better ! The question is - which of their choices do we wish to emulate ?

"Apparently there ARE people in Canada who feel the system is inadequate, that the wait for certain things are too long, that the technology and treatment options aren't where they should be, etc."

There are issues with healthcare availability. And for the most part, they are in rural and remote areas (Canada has a LOT of rural and remote areas though they are sparsely populated). But Canadian issues are swamped by the magnitude of US issues. If the point is to try and do better - why not look at systems that - do better ?

The surveys and opinion pieces you posted were highly slanted and did a lot of data exclusion. Any opinion you form from those sources is bound to be inaccurate.

Btw, 85%* of Canadians are proud of their system and want it to stay fundamentally the same. *My bad - most recent figure is 91%.

"And if that's the case what incentive would drug and research companies have to come up with new treatment options?"

You forget - even in the US the research is funded by the government. In fact, nearly ALL US medical research is funded by the government. Do you expect improvements to stop just b/c drug companies are no longer trying to cash in on the next big 'blockbuster' drug like - Viagra ?

Here's a challenge - come up with ONE major medical advancement researched and developed by private industry in the last 25 years. Good luck !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

WULFENSTAR

Friday, May 1, 2009 9:41 PM

Actually...she read these and started cracking up.

KWICKO

Friday, May 1, 2009 10:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:

My thought process is: why would they be writing about the dificulties of Canadian Healthcare when they are a part of the system that is apparently so much better than ours?

For the same reason that we might write about the difficulties of the Haitian healthcare system while thinking that ours is so much better than theirs... Admitting that one's healthcare system is better than someone else's AND admitting that it still has problems are not mutually exclusive positions. I think our healthcare system is better than many, but that doesn't stop me from bitching about the parts of it that are worse than others. It's no sin to borrow the parts of other systems that work, and mix them in where ours DON'T work.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

RIPWASH

Friday, May 1, 2009 11:24 PM

Now, don't get me wrong. I agree with ya here, Kwicko. You're repeating what I said several times. But if you'll read a little more carefully, I said it was Canadians dissing Canadian healthcare. And if Canada IS that much better then they would be telling it's better instead of how it's NOT. That's all I meant.

Why oh why do I get pulled into conversations with people that are smarter than me on the subject I'm complaining about, yet don't want to agree with them on?

Thanks, for the info guys! I'll look into it a little better as time permits.

Mal: You think she'll hold together?
Zoë: She's torn up plenty, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Could be bumpy.
Zoë: Always is

RIPWASH

Friday, May 1, 2009 11:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"IMHO the Government has screwed up Social Security ..."

How ? It's the ONE place the federal government is solvent ! Now, if the government could just stop raiding the till and consider repaying the money they took, it would stay that way.

Ah, and there's the rub. It shouldn't have been taken out to begin with! I don't recall who opened up that can of worms (allowing it to become part of the General Fund), but it shouldn't have and now it's not in good shape in terms of the bottom line and possibly not enough there for the folks who'll need it in the near future.

Quote:
"I don't want to be told by someone else where to go or who to see."

That IS pretty uneducated, I have to say. You have clearly been listening to the cough cough right-wing media. And to be clear - what I want and what the Obama administration wants are two different things. But in Canada, and elsewhere - you can see whoever you want. The difference is, there the government picks up the tab. (The government and the CMA have already negotiated a fee-for service schedule.)

Again, I concede to your more in-depth knowledge on this.

Quote:
"... I also don't feel comfortable in completely dismissing what they did present out of hand either."

I do, based on my personal experience and information - which is why I encourage you to research the topic. Don't take my word for it - check out neutral unbiased sources of hard data. The more you learn, the more you will understand that other countries DO do it better ! The question is - which of their choices do we wish to emulate ?

This is one area that we'll have to agree to disagree (in terms of dismissing what some people arguably DID say against the system). I DO agree that we should find away to do things better. I just don't know if taxing everyone to fund your particular brand of healthcare system is fair when it covers those who aren't contributing to the system. Again, probably naive and uneducated in your eyes. In a perfect world EVERYONE would have a job and make productive contributions to society and thus this healthcare system would be viable. I wouldn't have a problem with it at that point.

Quote:
The surveys and opinion pieces you posted were highly slanted and did a lot of data exclusion. Any opinion you form from those sources is bound to be inaccurate.

If that's the case, so be it. I'll have to do better next time. LOL

Quote:
Btw, 85%* of Canadians are proud of their system and want it to stay fundamentally the same. *My bad - most recent figure is 91%.

Okie dokie

Quote:
"And if that's the case what incentive would drug and research companies have to come up with new treatment options?"

You forget - even in the US the research is funded by the government. In fact, nearly ALL US medical research is funded by the government. Do you expect improvements to stop just b/c drug companies are no longer trying to cash in on the next big 'blockbuster' drug like - Viagra ?

I, the simpleton, was not aware of the amount of government involvement. But then that begs the question: if medical research is funded by the government, then why are the drugs/treatment generated from that research so gosh darned expensive for us common folk? If you claim they can give us healthcare cheaper and more affordable, why haven't they made THAT segment (which you say they have a certain amount of control over), more cost effective for American citizens? Hmmmmmm?

Quote:
Here's a challenge - come up with ONE major medical advancement researched and developed by private industry in the last 25 years. Good luck !

If I weren't so scared you'd clean my clock on the subject, I'd take you up on it. LOL This was probably government funded, but I have a friend at work who's husband went through a cancer treatment I'd never heard of before. They injected him with some chemical that would burn up when exposed to light (this is a layman's description

RIPWASH

Saturday, May 2, 2009 12:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"Don't wanna hijack this any further and/or detract from the comments about racist humor..."

So how is the joke I posted, racist?

Really? Im actually asking.

Sorry. I meant the comments about the joke being racist. I'll brace myself against the coming onslaught, be honest, and say that I heard that same joke at work just moments before I read your post. And yes, I chuckled. Not a knee slapper. I was not ROTFLOL, but I smiled. I didn't find it racist, I found the joke funny in the way I thought it was intended: an ironic play on words. That's all. No more, no less. I hope no one thinks less of me for that.

It would have been just as funny if the joke were told with "a woman" and Hillary was in the oval office or even Sarah Palin. I didn't find it racist because it wasn't derogatory to the man in office or his race, both of which I have no real problem with or against.

I'll bet you there are African Americans out there who would find that joke funny.

And now I feel like I'm over-explaining myself to avoid being called something I'm not.

So I'll stop.

If some of you want to slap that label on me because I'm agreeing with Wulf, then so be it. I know better.

Mal: You think she'll hold together?
Zoë: She's torn up plenty, but she'll fly true.
Mal: Could be bumpy.
Zoë: Always is

KWICKO

Saturday, May 2, 2009 12:56 AM

Quote:

Now, don't get me wrong. I agree with ya here, Kwicko. You're repeating what I said several times. But if you'll read a little more carefully, I said it was Canadians dissing Canadian healthcare. And if Canada IS that much better then they would be telling it's better instead of how it's NOT. That's all I meant.

Clearly I didn't say it right, then. I'm an American. *I* bitch about the American healthcare system. It doesn't mean it isn't better than some, or worse than others. Find the best healthcare system in the world, and you'll find someone in that country who's bitching about it. :) That there are some Canadians bitching about the Canadian system doesn't prove that it's a bad system - if anything, it proves that every system should be improved.

Quote:
Why oh why do I get pulled into conversations with people that are smarter than me on the subject I'm complaining about, yet don't want to agree with them on?

For the same reason I do: to learn. The day I stop learning is the day I start dying. I'm in no hurry to do either one.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

KWICKO

Saturday, May 2, 2009 1:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:

I just don't know if taxing everyone to fund your particular brand of healthcare system is fair when it covers those who aren't contributing to the system.

There's the rub. How do you NOT cover those who don't contribute? Currently, they're covered by the state, either through welfare/medicare/medicaid coverage, jails and prisons, or the emergency rooms which must treat them if they show up.

We CAN stop this, if you've a heart cold enough to do so. How? Simple. When the uninsured and those with bad credit show up on your doorstep, you simply let them die. The question is, do you WANT to stop it that badly? Personally, I don't.

Now, about those who aren't contributing but whom we ARE giving medical care to at present. They're going to be with us in some form or other. We've gotten down as low as 4% unemployment in the past - in essence, if you WANTED a job, you had one. Still, there were some who wouldn't or couldn't work. They still had health care of some sort. I was working, and I *DIDN'T* have any health care plan. My "plan" included not getting sick, or going to work ill if I did get sick. And when I did get insurance, despite having no illnesses and no pre-existing conditions, my rates were over $6000 per year.

Frankly, for that amount of money, I'd just as soon have it come out of my check before I ever see it, just like my insurance premiums do now, and I'd have less to worry about as far as whether this or that is going to be covered. I still don't go to the doc unless there are bones sticking through the skin, because I'm never sure whether my shitty insurance plan is going to cover it or not. And it always seems like it ends up being "not".

So, since the uninsured ARE being covered already, having a universal healthcare system would actually be more of a benefit to ME than it would to them. And there's a very good chance that by having it and using it, I'd be able to be a healthy and productive, contributing member of society for a much longer time. Here's a hint: I have no plans to retire, ever. I'll work until they throw dirt on me. If I can't do that, all I pray for is a loaded pistol and the strength to use it.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

AURAPTOR

Saturday, May 2, 2009 1:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Thanks Rappy, for giving us another thread to illustrate what a simple-minded dipshit you are. Can't even admit to a mistake, and then start throwing around assinine analogies (or, did Obama let an entire city full of white folk drown? No? Then you're full of shit, as per usual).

You never fail to set the bar ever lower for yourself and your sock puppets. Well done.
"

WTF are you even talking about ? What 'mistake' are you referring ? No one 'let' a city full of any folk drown, except maybe Ray Nagin.

KWICKO

Saturday, May 2, 2009 1:18 AM

Quote:

I, the simpleton, was not aware of the amount of government involvement. But then that begs the question: if medical research is funded by the government, then why are the drugs/treatment generated from that research so gosh darned expensive for us common folk?

I'm just hazarding a guess here, but my bet would be that the government is helping fund the research, but letting the pharmaceutical companies hold the patents and keep the profits.

I know there's a bit of that kind of behavior in the defense industry.

I don't pretend to understand WHY this happens, but it seems to...

But again, I'm guessing on this. Maybe Rue or Signy can clarify.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.