Dollhouse: Haunted - Echo is a dead person. Post comments here.

POSTED BY: Haken
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 22:42
VIEWED: 130445
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SHINY

Wednesday, April 29, 2009 11:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
Another way to look at it is this - people like Caroline have been put to sleep, and for all these years that they're sleeping, their bodies are often used as "sex" toys. Now, someone who is "having sex" with a sleeping person is really raping them, because you cannot give consent if you're asleep, and any consent you gave before you fell asleep is not blanket permission for someone to do with you whatever they want.

Here's a thought experiment:

"Hi Caroline, I'm a billionaire nymphomaniac dying of cancer and I really want to enjoy having sex with a few thousand more people before I die...will you let me put my mind in your young, beautiful body for lots and lots of sex with strangers over the next five years in exchange for my entire estate? Here are all the contracts, escrow accounts, video testimonials, and other evidence for your lawyers so you and they can be assured we will spare no expense taking care of your body and that your mind will be safely stored and returned to your body in five years. Agreed?"

If Caroline agrees with full knowledge of the planned use of her body, and her body is indeed used as planned for five years before her mind is returned to it, how is this rape?

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

KIRKULES

Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Here are all the contracts, escrow accounts, video testimonials, and other evidence for your lawyers so you and they can be assured we will spare no expense taking care of your body and that your mind will be safely stored and returned to your body in five years. Agreed?"

Even if I could get you to sign a contract giving me the right to hit you up the side of the head with a Baseball bat, I would probably be charged with assault and battery or at the minimum gross negligence when I put you in a comma. You can't sign away your basic rights, they are unalienable. Once you were in a comma, a family member could get Power of Attorney and make all of the decisions regarding your well being for you. I think just you signing the contract would be enough for a Judge to institutionalise you for your own protection.

BIGRICHARD

Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:24 AM

Zeek,
I just mean, if you have no problem with that, then you can by all means think the Dollhouse is good, you're allowed your opinion.

I personally think that the Dollhouse is misusing it's technologies by allowing people to hire the dolls for sex.

And you know that sex and dancing are not the same thing.

Although, Riverdancer was extremely juvenile calling you names, you're allowed an opinion, and you've given reasons why you think it, so I don't think it's wrong, we just think differently, which is fine.
"If we all had the same thoughts and opinions, the world would be a boring place." - My mum :)

RIVERDANCER

Thursday, April 30, 2009 5:02 AM

I was thinking more getting on someone's really, really bad side through totally neglecting their humanity and them being of the "opinion" that you were being abusive, but way to spin it!

As to being 'juvenile' I think I said it was just my opinion. I've lurked around enough to opine on how certain members feel about human life. We're all entitled to opinion, right?

No one should have their humanity stolen from them. Neither should such theft be justification for further abuse of someone under the theory that they aren't really a 'person.' It happens every day, it's a driving point of bigotry, and it's never right, and that's the end of that story.

BIGRICHARD

Thursday, April 30, 2009 6:21 AM

Sorry if I misunderstood RiverDancer, it just seemed to me like you were saying "if you think that way, you're an idiot".

SHINYGOODGUY

Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:57 AM

Watched it twice. First time, on air; second time on Hulu.

First impression: I was disappointed with Joss. Here, I thought, was an opportunity to really "kick ass" and go out with a bang; giving the Fox execs something to chew on regarding the show's future. I thought, at the end of this ep, "that was good, but not great" I thought he blew his chance to wow 'em.

Second impression: I saw some things that I didn't appreciate in the first viewing. Like Boyd's concerns over the assignment Echo was on. I got more from it the second time around. I also got more from Ballard's sex with Mellie. Anyway, thought better of the ep upon second viewing.
-----------------------------------------

The impressions: Have to go now, ready to leave work. More later.

SGG

Tawabawho?

ZEEK

Thursday, April 30, 2009 2:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverDancer:
I was thinking more getting on someone's really, really bad side through totally neglecting their humanity and them being of the "opinion" that you were being abusive, but way to spin it!

I call that spin. We're discussing a fictional situation. I don't think anyone is saying this is really something that they'd like to see happen.

Shiny, I think you made the perfect example there. I think that would be illegal in the states because it would be called prostitution. Still if we're talking from a moral standpoint I don't see that as wrong. I guess the real issue is whether or not sex is a sacred act. If a person is not religious then I don't think there's anything for them to worry about.

YINYANG

Thursday, April 30, 2009 4:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
If Caroline agrees with full knowledge of the planned use of her body, and her body is indeed used as planned for five years before her mind is returned to it, how is this rape?

It's rape because she has no ability to revoke consent, if she were to ever change her mind. Not having the ability to choose, to continue to consent or withdraw it at any point, is a violation of bodily sovereignty. And, IMO, this is what makes rape the awful crime it is - not the damage to the person raped, but the disregard for the rights of people to have control over their own bodies.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, April 30, 2009 9:21 PM

I'm not religious. That doesn't mean I'm out sexing people every which way and while I'm asleep... Or that I want to. Or that I would consent to have it done to me.

And birthcontrol doesn't always work... That is if you're even on it. Should a woman be able to consent whether or not they conceive a child? I think so. Is it a violation of their body and their choice to deny them their consent? I also think so. Is that a crime? Well, most people don't choose to get stabbed or shot, either. I think an unwanted rape pregnancy has the potential to case harm... And rape itself is often violent, a form of intimidation that causes long-lasting emotional trauma.

Found this opinion article about rape and the way our society treats it on the new york times website. Kind of interesting. Possibly relevant to this debate?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/30/opinion/30kristof.html?_r=1

ZEEK

Thursday, April 30, 2009 10:25 PM

How about this one for the discussion? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexomnia

Those people are clearly not consenting and have no control over what they're doing but is it rape? The legal references on there seem to show that it is not. However, it seems somewhat relevant.

I studied abnormal psych years ago so my memory isn't perfect on this one, but I seem to remember the partners involved thought the other person was fully awake and participating. Many have to be told later about what they did. Some are very disturbed by their actions and those of their partner. Others aren't. Are the people who suffer from that evil? Are their partners?

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