Dollhouse: Haunted - Echo is a dead person. Post comments here.
POSTED BY: Haken
UPDATED: Tuesday, May 5, 2009 22:42
VIEWED: 130445
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Not to pick on you, BigRichard, but your assessment of the Dollhouse is troubling to me. Even though there are some acknowledgments here and there that the Dollhouse is bad, you (and many other viewers, I'm sure) seem to have missed those. I don't really have a problem with you, though; I think the show just isn't doing a good enough job conveying this point.
Here's the thing - let's say that the people who joined knew what they were getting into, and were not coerced but signed up voluntarily (both of which I highly doubt). Regardless of that, every engagement the dolls go on that involves "sex" is really rape, because they have no choice in the matter - they're programmed (forced) to say yes. In addition to that, every treatment is like a high-tech date-rape drug, and in a way, it's rape again - mind rape. And this happens over, and over, and over again. Anyone who would do this to someone else is sick IMO - I don't care if they justify it with "we're just providing a service, helping people" - and any organization that's run off of this is unequivocally bad.
Another way to look at it is this - people like Caroline have been put to sleep, and for all these years that they're sleeping, their bodies are often used as "sex" toys. Now, someone who is "having sex" with a sleeping person is really raping them, because you cannot give consent if you're asleep, and any consent you gave before you fell asleep is not blanket permission for someone to do with you whatever they want. So, again, even if Caroline did give un-coerced consent to the Dollhouse (which doesn't seem likely to me from what we've seen of her with DeWitt), she couldn't possibly have been able to give consent beforehand for every single scenario her body's been used for, and (at this point) has no way to stop it from happening. This makes what the Dollhouse does to her rape, and therefore wrong.
In short: the Dollhouse is bad. Very, very bad.
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Ok, the point I'm trying to make is
- yes the dollhouse is bad, I definitely know this. However what I'm saying is, Topher and his equipment aren't. I know I'm wording this horribly, I mean that on a whole, I don't have much of a problem with Topher's equipment and science and idea, but the clients/management of the Dollhouse seem to have no problem with exploiting this science. My point is, Topher probably sees himself doing good, and he does, because some of them are helping people, and he probably focuses on these, ignoring the more sexually oriented engagements. You can see Topher's care for the science through his engagement, you could put it down to his 'younger mental state', but Topher doesn't violate any of the dolls, he doesn't create himself a 'girlfriend' per se, but more of just a friend, someone to chat to and hang out with, once a birthday. I'm not saying that should be the SOLE purpose of the dollhouse, but he doesn't misuse the dolls in any way, and realises that they're suppose to be treated more human than other clients treat them.
So yes Dollhouse=bad, idea=good. I confuse myself often, so I've probably contradicted myself in other posts but this is basically what I'm trying to get at.
Not to mention, I have a problem with the fact that DeWitt seems to promise the actives money and a life after they've been dolls, yet they're constantly put in situations where they can die. If they DO die, DeWitt has arranged that the Dollhouse gets more money from the client, yet the active is then dead and so the Dollhouse saves even MORE money (that which would've gone to the doll), that seem right to you?
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Originally posted by BigRichard:
I don't have a problem with them. The Dollhouse, most of the time it seems, isn't anything wrong. It's all about filling needs, and most of the time, it's keeping people happy,
Say what? The Dollhouse is bad. Very bad. Fulfilling a need, you say? I'm sure every, say, Indian barbershop that offers 'special services' in the back -- which is to say, let's degenerate men rape small children, many of which often die before reaching the age of ten, even -- fulfills a need, too. But I wouldn't go and offer 'fulfilling a need' as any justification for it, though; would you? Likewise, the Dollhouse fulfills a need as well; but always at the expense of another: ay, there's the rub.
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.. not to mention helping situations (at the school when the virus got loose) and saving kidnapped children, among other things.
Same deal. You can't give with you right hand what you take away again with your left; i.e., you can't abuse one kid (Echo) to save another abused child.
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The only real trouble I've had with the Dollhouse is since finding out that Sierra wasn't there of her own free will, which makes it possible that others aren't either,
That's gotta be the understatement of the year. And that's understating it. Let's spell it out, here. Caroline was clearly coerced into being there. DeWitt had at least the break-in on her; and the stuff Caroline had seen, she was likely given the 'gracious' choice of either being prosecuted, or worse, even: suddenly mysteriously disappearing one day. Caroline's almost desperate appeal to DeWitt, about how she only wanted to make a difference, obviously fell on deaf ears. Not because DeWitt didn't get it, but simply because she had a bit of young, exploitable prey in her clutches, and she wasn't gonna let go.
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... hopefully a rational explanation for why DeWitt would do something like that will come about in the future, it's possible she struck a deal with Sierra as well,
A 'rationale,' for certain; a 'rational explanation,' never. Sierra's story was particularly sad and painful. She didn't want to have sex with some rich guy, and he had her 'fixed.' Simple as that. And then, in a sadistic twist, they let her be herself again, for a few hours, enough to tell her she's gonna give him many more happy returns. It's sickening, really.
And Topher? Creating a SciFi buddy seems harmless enough; but, in real-life, a pretty girl like Sierra probably wouldn't give him the time of day (or, if she would, he didn't bother to find out the regular way, did he?). They let these Dolls do stuff they wouldn't normally do on their own accord. That's what makes all this a grotesque violation; if not a physical one, then certainly a mental one. Yes, to some seeing Echo with a whip might fulfill a need. A good thing, you say? Like the ethics guy said: "Imagine this technology exists... And now imagine it being used on you."
It's human trafficking; it's repulsive.
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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And that second to last line, right there, is why I was scared for Topher when Proto-Caroline Echo in Needs seemed about mind-wipe him. This is scary bad stuff, and no one deserves it to happen to them, even the guy who enables it.
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I've never had a problem with Topher. He reminds me a lot of Wash in the way he acts. His defense is that all the dolls volunteered. So, far we have no evidence that he knows otherwise. Though if Sierra really was forced into her situation it's hard to imagine she wasn't begging for help when they wiped her.
The only person I really have a problem with so far is DeWitt. She's the only one who seems to know whether the actives are coerced or not. If they really did volunteer of their own free will then I don't see much problem at all with the dollhouse. Mainly because of the way they seem to take good care of the actives.
So, the real question is what the harm is if the Dolls are willing volunteers. The Dollhouse seems to do pretty good background checking before an engagement. I assume that include blood work for disease checking. So, there shouldn't be any longterm physical harm. The actives get wiped after engagements. So, there shouldn't be any emotional harm. That leaves no lasting impression on the active that the event ever took place. When their true identity is restored will there really be any harm?
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When drug facilitated date-rape happens, the victims often are rendered unconscious, and their memories of the event are often affected by the drug, to the point where it becomes difficult to prosecute because they can't describe the exact circumstances of the event.
But they do remember, on some level... Some fear when they wake up and have it checked out and confirmed, or if the bastard is really sick, they let their victims know beforehand what they're going to do. And the victims experience a very negative psychological reaction.
So considering that some aspects of engagements seem to remain even after wiping clean to the tabular rosa state... Is the abuse really going to be forgotten? Or covered over once the actives have their own memories restored? I don't think so. I think it's going to manifest itself, sometimes subtlely, sometimes not.
And we're not just talking sex here. In some cases, we're talking angry violent sex and beatings. I feel very, VERY sorry for Sierra, post Dollhouse. Whatever DeWitt says about character checks and protecting the dolls, do you remember what Sierra's regular client in Needs says to her? What he oh so smugly threatens her with? The Dollhouse is complicit in all of that. So long as the dolls aren't permanently damaged or killed, the Dollhouse doesn't seem to care what the clients put the dolls through... And sometimes I wonder if the Dollhouse WOULD care if a doll were killed, beyond an additional fee.
But even worse... I doubt that the actives ever do get their memories restored. I'm sure that's just a line the dollhouse feeds them when they're coercing them into service. But it would be SO, SO dangerous for the dollhouse to let their actives free. Most likely? All retired dolls are sent to the attic.
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Being drugged is different. The victim knows that they've been drugged and like you said they find out that they've been taken advantage of. It's like their personal security has been taken away. By the time the Dolls get restored (if that happens) I doubt it's anywhere near the same. They're not waking up somewhere all alone. They're waking up in the controlled environment like they expect to.
Let's say they never get their real personality restored. Then it seems even less of a crime. The original crime was wiping them. After that they're essentially dead and there is no real victim. It's almost the equivalent of a clone that is never given brain activity. Just a body.
I think the real crime is the coercion. If that's going on then these people are basically being forced into a life where they have no control over their bodies. It's obviously implied that's what's going on, but since we haven't had it spelled out there's always room for twists and turns in the future. It's never a good idea to get too complacent with assumptions when Joss is running things.
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True enough about assumptions, though I don't think Joss would have any problem making Dollhouse very dark thematically.
If their real personality never gets restored, it's murder. If the actives are abused in their mind-wiped state, it's abuse. Using your analogy, these clones aren't vegetables. They have brain activity, as shown by the fact they paint pictures, communicate, and to an extent have wants and desires, likes and dislikes. Those traits may only goes so far as "I want to take a swim now" "I like the cafeteria food" or "I trust my handler, but I don't like and don't understand what he's doing to me, it's scary." But those functioning traits of brain activity are there. And if they were allowed to develop mentally and personality wise, they would.
In fact, is not allowing them to develop a crime? Are they killing the developing person every time they wipe to the tabular rosa state? Or when they wipe the tabular rosa state?
A person waking up in a safe place after being raped doesn't make the rape right. And it's kind of worse when they wake up in a place, among people who allowed and encouraged the rape. Is such a place really safe?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
A person waking up in a safe place after being raped doesn't make the rape right. And it's kind of worse when they wake up in a place, among people who allowed and encouraged the rape. Is such a place really safe?
It wouldn't ever make it right but I question what effect it would really have on them. If the physical effects are long gone and there's no real way to know what did or didn't happen to them when they were actives then would it really harm them that much? In our world the physical and maybe even more importantly the emotional harm are the reasons it's such an awful crime. In the doll's world it seems like neither has any impact. Except in the case of Sierra with her handler. That becomes a special case because her imprint did not consent which left an emotional scar. When the dolls are on an actual engagement their imprints are consenting at least for anything we've seen so far.
The part about not allowing them to develop is an interesting question. They sort of create the doll state themselves though. So, is it a real being that they're preventing from development or is it just a computer program basically. I don't think anyone would call it a crime to prevent an artificial intelligence from developing.
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Isn't it? Or is that just androcentricism? Seems to me like even if we create robots, if some develop sentience, awareness, could become their own person... Just what kind of humans would we be to deny that? What kind of human beings would we be to deny the development of our own children, whether they are flesh or metal, mind-wiped adults or brought up from embryos?
Sentience and free will are not commodities. An intelligent being should never be considered a possession.
As for the dollhouse, looks like you and I just have irreconcilable differences about just how affected a person can be... Whether they're consciously aware of it or not.
In my view, on some level, they would be aware. And to subject them over and over again, that is a horror the likes of which no person should ever have to experience. To know something is wrong, that something was done to you, and not know what? That's a far from soothing sensation.
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