TEA party protesters and what we really want.

POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 00:59
VIEWED: 7785
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SIGNYM

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:17 PM

To recap: I think the TEA party protestors are being manipulated by the PTB into shooting themselves in the foot. You'll hear all day long (on corporate media) how the gubmint is the root of all evil... but any of you heard about the "break the banks" movement? "Too big to fail means to big to exist"?

'Course not. Not a favorite topic on corporate media.

The only way not to get yanked around is to do some deep thinking about what you really really want out of an economic system. So... all of you pro-capitalists out there: WHY should we continue with capitalism? And, all of you pro-socialists out there: why switch? And if you got any other economic systems out there, do your best to argue for them.

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:29 PM

Okay guys... TEA party protestors and all... the floor is yours.

Don't tell me what you DON'T want. Tell me what you WANT.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

JONGSSTRAW

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:37 PM

I'm of the opinion these days that ALL of it was bullshit from the start. All of a sudden, one fateful day, everything was about to collapse? I'm supposed to believe that? No way. Bush was too stupid and Paulson too inept and greedy to see through the fraud that was occuring. Obama & Geithner have only worsened the fraud and theft of our tax dollars. Worse than that, they are on the verge of rendering our currency worthless. I do not blame Capitalism. It has served our country well for 200+ years. 99% of business "capitalists" do business honestly and ethically every day. The real problem here was Govt. entitites, set up as pseudo-corporations, gave false security to banks, etc that made either greedy or poor financial decisions. A small handful of large powerful corporations got intoxicated on the rewards of operating un-ethically. Socialism sounds good to the lazy masses who want Govt handouts, but most Americans want the opportunity to succeed in life, and only capitalism can offer the reward for the hard work. But ya gotsta do the hard work. Shortcuts to success lead to what we're goin' through now.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:38 PM

Exactly.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:50 PM

Quote:
but most Americans want the opportunity to succeed in life, and only capitalism can offer the reward for the hard work.

So, you want a system that offers prosperity for... some? With the idea perhaps that a rising tide raises ALL boats?

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:04 PM

Economics isn't my forte, but I'll try to explain how I feel about things.

So the question here, for me, is: if I could make my own little world, and choose all the systems of government, social programs, and set the type of economy, what world would I make?

There's two ways of looking at capitalism. One is that the individuals who excel under capitalism give back to the community through the products they produce, and that the success capitalism offers is a keen motivation to do great things.

The other perspective is that inevitably the people who excel will keep consolidating the power that brings, until they can rope the rest of society into doing their bidding at their prices.

Socialism aims to provide for everyone in the society, and also prevent oppression from the overseers in that society. A noble cause, but no one's quite managed it on a large scale. You either have a corrupt government, a government that becomes overstretched and can't provide for it's people, or the really scary governments that start to exert control over every aspect of a person's life and don't care much about the individual.

Tribal groups and small communities, though, there's something appealing about the way they all rely on each other, care about each other, and help each individual find something they're good at that they enjoy doing. They all know if someone sneezes, but in a perfect world they'd also respect each other enough to respect privacy if it were asked for.

It's possible I'm idealizing that a bit much, but that's the way I see it. That's what I think would be ideal on a local scale.

Between communities you could promote trade, were people with a more capitalistic bent could prosper. I also think progress is an important goal to pursue, technology-wise and intellectually. I'd hope that either the inter-community trade could keep great minds motivated by opportunity and potential, and if not that then the simple human joy of curiosity and creation.

Feel free to point and laugh. I know it's not realistic. Probably eventually the little community would get forced by the strongest or most charismatic person into working for them to create the goods they export. But if it didn't, hey, it'd be pretty good, and that's how tribes and clans worked for a long time before imperialism, fuedalism, and capitalism stepped among them.

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So... all of you pro-capitalists out there: WHY should we continue with capitalism?

Because history proves....again, and again, and again....that capitalism breeds inovation. Economic freedom is VITAL to the growth of the human condition.

But also, temperance is required. Because after all, few people on the planet could be said to possess the wisdom of Solomon. Greed is the dark evil behind the capital virtue of economic freedom. This is why a nation of LAWS, properly enforced, WILL protect the people.

This must be the way of humanity until the day comes when everyone suddenly becomes enlightened and we live like the Vorlons from Babylon 5.

JONGSSTRAW

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
but most Americans want the opportunity to succeed in life, and only capitalism can offer the reward for the hard work.
So, you want a system that offers prosperity for... some? With the idea perhaps that a rising tide raises ALL boats?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

I want a system that offers prosperity for .......those who are willing to study and work hard for it. I don't want economic equality for lazy dropouts who have done little or nothing to improve their job skills, if they had any in the first place. I don't want to see a country full of Maoists waving their Little Red Book all wearing the same drab uniform. True, we are ALL created equal. But after our creation it's up to us to be responsible for our lives and efforts to succeed. Equality breeds mediocrity. That's why most honest Corporations are going down the tubes. Diversity and other PC programs are killing the businesses by keeping inept people employed, but at least they're staying out of court for someone's "rights" being supposedly violated. And they care more about that than making money it seems sometimes. So in many ways real Capitalism died a long time ago.

YINYANG

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:16 PM

My dad's a fan of bioregionalism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioregionalism

As for me... I don't know what I would want ideally; I tend to focus on how to improve situations now. I think capitalism could work better, with good oversight and social programs, but ultimately there will probably still be gross inequalities. Communism sounds nice in theory, but fails in practice. I don't fancy pure socialism - something about it just bothers me.

I am a big fan of antitrust laws, though. And, "Too big to fail means too big to exist," has a nice ring to it.

---
"Brawndo's got what plants crave. It's got electrolytes."

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:20 PM

Ooh, bioregional anarcho-socialism! Nice call, Yinyang!

SIGNYM

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:23 PM

Jongstraw, I feel that I don't properly understand you. You want a system that rewards hard work.

Why?

I know that sounds like a stupid question, but clearly you value hard work as being useful for... something. I mean, in our current system it's possible for a single person to produce enough for 100 others. With our level of automation we're way beyond having to slave away dawn to dusk planting, harvesting, threshing, drying, spinning, herding, weaving....

So what does this "hard work" do for us? Promote innovation? Improve productivity?

Or do you value hard work simply as a moral imperative?

And speaking of work... sorry, guys. Gotta get back at it!
---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:28 PM

I'd say it helps with some innovation, as people always want to figure out how to make hard work less hard.

If you remove work, say by having automation and robots provide everything for us, what do people do with their time?

I know it seems like people would read more books, or produce more artwork/writing, or more science, or more inventions, or try to improve their own lives, but I tend to see a LOT of procrastination on those fronts. Most likely, people would become more complacent then they are now. Scary. Those who didn't would be bored, seeking greater and more risky thrills, possibly become criminal.

Ever read Fahrenheit 451? That's exactly the kind of world I think would arise. Once the public doesn't care, then the people who recognize the threat of free-thinking to their power base are able to start getting rid of the greatest proponent of free-thought: books. Once that happens, getting back out would be very hard.

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
My dad's a fan of bioregionalism:

You father would have fit well into the City-states of ancient Greece. Or on a 'verse rim world.

JONGSSTRAW

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Jongstraw, I feel that I don't properly understand you. You want a system that rewards hard work.

Why?

I know that sounds like a stupid question, but clearly you value hard work as being useful for... something. I mean, in our current system it's possible for a single person to produce enough for 100 others. With our level of automation we're way beyond having to slave away dawn to dusk planting, harvesting, threshing, drying, spinning, herding, weaving....

So what does this "hard work" do for us? Promote innovation? Improve productivity?

Or do you value hard work simply as a moral imperative?

And speaking of work... sorry, guys. Gotta get back at it!
---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

I can't tell if you're being obtuse here or just argumentative. Certainly you have the intelligence to understand my words. When I refer to study and hard work, I don't necessarily mean tilling the fields. Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Katie Couric, my teachers & professors I had in school, my Dad, etc etc etc ....they all studied and worked hard to get where they are in the world. Doctors, lawyers, CPA's, MBA's...those sheepskins aren't just handed out to the mob standing outside. They have to be earned. Once you earn it, it tells the world you are ready to become a productive member of their organization. If you skip over all the hard study and work, you may end up in a factory, and for many folks that's ok. Or you may just drop out of society and become a drunk or drug adict,. That's ok too, but don't ask me or Tiger Woods, or Oprah to give up what we have acheived in order to artificially level the playing field for them.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:47 PM

You're telling me what you DON'T want. I get that!

But, where is all this "hard work" going? We're at a technological stage where we could probably produce everything that we needed and much of what we wanted... and STILL repair the planet!... for only four hours of work a day. So what is the purpose of promoting "hard work"? Separate the capable from the incapable to improve the species somehow?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:47 PM

SignyM's not being obtuse or argumentative, she's using the Socratic method.

I can't speak for other people (If I did in my previous post, then I over-stepped my bounds), but I know, if I didn't have work to focus me, I could spend all day every day discussing philosophy and politics on the internet.

And in doing so, not only would I be hurting myself, but I would be hurting society and everyone around me.

Heck, I do a little too much of that anyway as it is...

In my opinion, humans, simply put, aren't efficient. And we're even LESS efficient when you put a bunch of us together. You could institute a four hour work week, but would anything get done?

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Don't ask me or Tiger Woods, or Oprah to give up what we have acheived in order to artificially level the playing field for them.

Hear, Hear.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:26 PM

Again, that's what you DON'T want.

And nobody (in this thread at least) is asking that anyway!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

RUE

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:26 PM

"... if I didn't have work to focus me, I could spend all day every day discussing philosophy and politics on the internet."

And that's a problem - why ? That was the Greek ideal life. That's why they has slaves and lesser classes of people. So the lesser people could do the necessary work for the better people, and the better people could think and discuss and study.

Now we have machines and old dead biological material (gas, oil, coal) to be our slaves. We can live the ideal life of study, discussion, and contemplation.

Of course our physical life might suffer, since all that sitting around is good for no one.

BTW - most hunter-gatherer societies, who live in very much the same way as our evolutionary past, spend 4 hours a day or less in the actual getting of food and water. They 'work' very few hours compared to agricultural societies.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:42 PM

Speaking of hard work: Thinking about what you WANT ... it's a lot harder than finding something that you DON'T want.

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:46 PM

They also went hungry a lot, which isn't generally conducive to the creative process.

Why is it a problem, for me to just be the female version of an internet drone?

For one thing, I wouldn't be creating anything. In my opinion, talk is just talk. Over the internet, I like talk (not so much in real life, I'm pretty cold actually) but am I really doing anything productive? It sure doesn't seem like it.

I'm seriously doubt I'm going to write the next great philosophical classic, so if ultimately I'm not influencing anyone or producing, what good does talking all day about philosophy and politics do? Just because I enjoy it doesn't mean I'm doing anything worthwhile.

Society relies on people MAKING things. Creating. Production and consumption, even in non-capitalistic systems. Someone has to take the corn that's been grown to town so everyone can eat. Someone has to write that neat new play, or that book everyone's talking about, or paint that pretty sunset.

My ideas aren't new, I'm not creating them, and so, for society, I am not adding value.

And on a personal level, not only is it unhealthy for me to just sit around talking, but I'm not engaging with other human beings face to face. Also, I'm not doing anything which is more productive, and I actually take some personal level of satisfaction from being productive. When I can't write, or draw, or do my job at work (which I enjoy), I eventually get frustrated, no matter how much I might enjoy a good debate.

KIRKULES

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:53 PM

I can't speak for Tea Party protesters, because I wasn't one of them and they are a very diverse group. What I would like to see, is a simple Federal tax system that requires everyone to pay taxes. Currently only about 60% of Americans pay Federal income taxes and by the end of the Obama administration we can expect this to be close to 50%. Once we reach the 50% mark there will be no turning back until we reach a catastrophic downfall. You simply can't have over 51% of your voting population in a position to increase their benefits at the expense of the other 49%. I really don't care at this point how progressive the new system is, that can be sorted out over time, all that is essential how is that all Americans have a stake in the future of this country and don't begin to see Government as a way to use the voting booth to get a pay raise.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:59 PM

So you want everyone to have a stake in the (government tax) system. Fair enough! What do you think might happen otherwise? Loss of production?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

RUE

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:30 PM

"They also went hungry a lot ..."

The Greeks ? Or the hunter-gatherers ?

"I'm seriously doubt I'm going to write the next great philosophical classic, so if ultimately I'm not influencing anyone or producing, what good does talking all day about philosophy and politics do? Just because I enjoy it doesn't mean I'm doing anything worthwhile."

Very few of us are going to write the next great philosophical classic, or book classic, or movie classic or ... and that makes us or you less worthy of enjoying life ? Of doing things that are enjoyable ? What do you have against enjoyment, anyway, except for some Puritanical attitude that it's wrong ?

"Society relies on people MAKING things. Creating. Production and consumption ..."

I'll go with the production part. (I have an issue with excess consumption, which I think is necessary for capitalism to run and ruinous to the planet and us humans.) What if you could run a machine 4 hours/day that would do all that 'production' for you ? Would you find personal benefit to working more ? Would it make you a better person? More worthwhile ? Would working hard to speed up the pace of production and consumption make for a better society ? A better planet ? A better, more worthwhile you ?

I suggest you read the book 'The Dispossessed' by Ursula Le Guin. While she primarily addresses different questions, one question she does sideswipe is -

What do you do with your life if you're not being used by your society ? How do you fill the need some people have to being necessary and useful ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 10:56 PM

Hunter-gathers. Probably some Greeks too, but they weren't exactly producing time-honored artwork or books like their famous, better-fed contemporaries, either.

It's not an issue of enjoyment = bad, it's an issue of overindulgence. I spend too much time as it is on hobbies that have no worth to anyone but myself. They don't better the human condition, they aren't anything lasting that'll resonate through history, they aren't even fulfilling anyone's basic needs.

Everyone has hobbies, but if hobbies were ALL we did, progress and society would grind to a standstill. Overindulgence. Major problem.

And, yeah, actually, I think I would be a better person if I worked more. I have an obligation to the society that raised me, and to human kind in general. We all depend on each other. I have a pretty big debt to repay, and it's only going to get bigger.

What would I do with my life? I already told you. I'd waste it away in idleness. Personally, I think that's far sadder than any other fate I could suffer, so I'll take the work, thank you.

Now, I'm not saying there aren't cubical dwellers who are abused by companies, and they could be doing so much better and so much more if they were liberated from their empty pointless jobs. I merely am admitting that this is not the case for me, because at least with a job I'm DOING something. I don't know how significant, but it's something.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:38 PM

Well, it seems to number of people able or willing to post what they WANT (not what they don't want) has gone down to a trickle.

Anyone else care to weigh in before me?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

RUE

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:45 PM

Bytemite,

Here's what I don't get. We have a society where ALL of life's needs can be met without grueling work for hours and hours each week.

The only reasons for the amount of work people are doing right now are: 1) excessive consumption 2) profit.

If profit was removed from the equation, and consumption reduced to less planet-killing levels, you could meet your debt to society, produce more than enough to contribute to your fellow humans, AND have a life of relative leisure.

It's not either / or. You can actually have both !

Given that - would you still choose to do more work ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

BYTEMITE

Wednesday, April 22, 2009 11:55 PM

Not really: like I said, outside of work, I'm not technically producing anything. And I can't really improve my life beyond what it is now.

However, I did edit my post above to concede that this is most likely not the case for everyone.

If I had the will-power to limit the amount of time I spend on the internet at work, and to work more, I'd do so in a heartbeat. I feel like a thief.

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
You're telling me what you DON'T want. I get that!

But, where is all this "hard work" going? We're at a technological stage where we could probably produce everything that we needed and much of what we wanted... and STILL repair the planet!... for only four hours of work a day. So what is the purpose of promoting "hard work"? Separate the capable from the incapable to improve the species somehow?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

Actually, I don't think that you "get anything" about this subject. Maybe you're an artist, or a writer, or some other type of liberal free spirit, and your world revolves around your concept of some advanced technological perception you have of things, but I can tell you that I've been in the production and service world all my life, and nothing will ever replace good old fashioned hard work to acheive company objectives. When those objectives are met or surpassed everyone benefits. It's what makes the job/career fun, exciting, and rewarding. Maybe I'm old school, but I never forget for one day that my job pays for everything in my life, and allows me and mine to do what we like to do, and live in a manner we feel we earned. I look at everything I have and I can say I earned it. No one gave it to me. And I know that I didn't hurt anyone in the process. In fact I believe that many people today have a better life because of the opportunities I was a part bringing to them. So yeah, I'm a capitalist true and true. I don't apologize for it.

RUE

Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:10 AM

"I feel like a thief."

So, you feel guilty for enjoying yourself. A Puritan has come out of the closet !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

RUE

Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:13 AM

"I look at everything I have and I can say I earned it. No one gave it to me."

And I (anyway) am not talking about anyone giving anyone anything. I'm saying you can EARN your way through life with a lot less work.

Is that a problem ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:21 AM

Not one bit.

On the other hand, I LIKE building stuff - so too do many others, but few dare for fear of tripping over some supercorporations pre-pasted and vaguely worded, or retroactive and specific, copyright.

The squeeze on IP needs to go, as does Corporate Personhood.

-F

SIGNYM

Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:28 AM

Still waiting for peeps... Geezer? Finn? Rappy? AnthonyT? Story? Chrisisall? Kwicko?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

KIRKULES

Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
So you want everyone to have a stake in the (government tax) system. Fair enough! What do you think might happen otherwise? Loss of production?

---------------------------------

It's not a matter of the amount of production as much as it is who is being productive. Relieving 51% of the population of the burden of Government can only lead to a permanent lower class dependent on the Government. The Government in turn will be totally dependent on the 49% that do the majority of the production. The resulting increase in burden on the most productive will lead to a lack of incentive for additional production. Once the overall "pie" begins to shrink, it's a downward spiral. Making it acceptable for a whole class of citizens to decrease their productivity and see no difference in their lifestyle is one of the reasons Communism always fails. Maximising productivity of the individual is a worthy goal, but because of the overpopulation of the Earth is is not possible for everyone to be productive because of limited resources. All of the "Green" technology in the world won't make a lick of difference if the population of the World continues to grow. This population growth is only possible because those that are productive subsidise those who are not. It's exactly the types of policies that transfer burdens from one individual to another that lead to underproduction and massive over population.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:12 AM

I don't understand how I can be puritan if I'm atheist... Or if I feel guilty for spending time on the internet when I SHOULD be working. Listen to me when I say it's excessive, and that it's actually interfering negatively with my life. I don't sleep much...

BYTEMITE

Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:22 AM

Also, I don't think I've been addressing my concerns with your four hour work day proposal clearly enough.

I'm concerned that without work, humanity could become a pampered bunch of hedonists. You think complacency is bad with just television? I imagine a world without people having to work, and I imagine... Opiates of the masses, a contented, vacant, vapid population of unthinking cattle.

Back when folks had slaves and servants, what percentage do you think were producing actual works of intellectual and artistic genius, and how many were just... Taking up space? Living like leeches off the workers, living in arrogance and pride with disdain for the "lower people?"

At the risk of destroying the illusion of credibility of my argument by mentioning pop culture... I'm reminded of that movie WALL-E, just without the overt corporations and all the pollution.

RUE

Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:43 AM

First of all Bytemite

Let me preface this by saying I'm going to have to be mostly offline for a few weeks, so if I don't carry this discussion further, please don't take it in any way other than I'm out of time.

So - well, I guess I have to be hit on the head a few times to get it. Here, let me try that myself: .

NOW I get where you're coming from !

I'm not talking about personal responses to an indeterminate work-schedule (see your PM), I'm talking about a system where a legitimate work schedule for everyone and anyone is 4 /5.

What I find perplexing is we have here a group of people who can imagine ftl, with a planet of zombies and reavers, a system of inner planets and fringe worlds - who can't imagine a system where a legitimate work week might be 20 hours.

Technology - the bowl, fire, metalworking, agriculture, writing - has changed our lives forever. We are no longer animals subject to the perils of our immediate environment. OUR EXISTENCE IS SECURE. We can make enough, plant enough, store enough to live without fear of running out.

And due to our further technology, we no longer need to work very hard, either. Take steel mills and auto-plants for example. Where and when I grew up it was considered the mark of a man to get a job there where you worked hard. There was value, by gosh ! in passing the test of manhood. Could you do it ? Were you one of the men ?

The Japanese, OTOH, with no such hang-ups, do their steel and auto manufacturing by robot. The sensible way, I might add.

We no longer need to work hard, and haven't for a very, very long time.

So why do we do it ? Why do we have long hours and hard work ? And more important, why do we cling to them ?

If you could have a job that legitimately only took 20 hours/ week would you still opt for a 40 hour/ week job ?

***************************************************************

ETA:

You know how primitive people deal with all that time ? They hang out and tell stories. They paint each other's bodies. They rest and watch the kids play. And is that so bad ?

BYTEMITE

Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:48 AM

I would. I can understand why other people wouldn't...

I think American car companies didn't use robots because of all the jobs that change over would represent.

And the unions, who didn't want workers to lose their jobs.

Probably that's the reason other businesses still have a 40 hour workweek. To keep up our country's employment numbers, and to remain competitive while doing so.

SERGEANTX

Thursday, April 23, 2009 2:00 AM

More than anything else I want time.

One of my favorite books was Heinlein's Time Enough For Love. For those of you haven't read it, it's basically the chronicles of a man who's over two thousand years old. One of the central themes of the book is that the average person spends their entire life just getting to the point that they can begin to truly live - then they die. So, that's what I want. Time enough to really appreciate life.

"Hard work" sucks. Or rather what most people think of when they say "hard work" sucks. If hard work means doing something you don't like, struggling and toiling for some future payoff that may, or may not, come to fruition, then you can count me out. I want leisure.

There is, however, a kind of work that is sublime, and that's also part of what I want. I've actually reached a point in my life where I've found that to some degree, but it took my own stubborn refusal to do "hard work" for me to get here.

So, what do I want from an economic system? I want it to stay out my way. To the maximum extent feasible, I want the freedom to live life in a way that works for me, with the people I love. I want an economic system, and indeed a society, that understands there is no one right way to live and respects that not everyone wants the same thing.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

KWICKO

Thursday, April 23, 2009 3:30 AM

What do I WANT? Well, more Firefly, obviously - and I'm surprised I'm the first to mention that here... ;)

I'd love to see my government at least as interested in the health, education, and welfare of its own people as it is of those in other countries. I'd like to have a health system where if you were sick, you went to a doctor and got treated. An education system where if you wanted to go to college, you could. A welfare and unemployment system that wasn't a hand-out, but a hand up, where you could actually get training to get a better job, and where if you didn't have a job, you had a safety net, but you had to work for it - in other words, you'll get your unemployment check, but you're going to put in 20 hours a week, whether it's picking up trash on the side of the highway, cleaning up a park, or what have you. I call this idea "WorkFair" - a play on "work", "welfare", and "fair". You work 20 hours a week helping out the city or state government, and you get your "unemployment" check. The work isn't fun, or glamorous, but it's not money for nothing, either - and it just might inspire you to get a better job on your own, or with the help and training made available to you. Working 20 hours a week will allow you plenty of time to look for work and go on interviews, too. And if you'd rather go to school, that's covered - as long as you're putting in your 20 hours per week.

All of this is going to be expensive. It's going to take a BIG initial investment, and it's not going to start showing results or paying dividends for at least four years - which means no politician in the world will ever propose it, back it, or vote for it. But what no one has ever been able to explain to me is how a better-educated, better-trained populace is going to HURT your economy and your productivity.

Offer public education not just through high school, but through college and/or vocational/trade schools. Even if you offered it free to every citizen, there would be those who wouldn't take you up on it. For graduate degrees, have a system where you sign a contract like some people do with the ROTC for the military - your school is paid for, and in return you owe that company X number of years of employment at a fair salary.

What I'd LIKE and what I WANT are that we invest at least as much money in our own futures as we've been willing to invest in invading other nations to "secure" THEIR futures. Will it cost a lot? Yup - but still much less than our latest war. And I think it would have a hell of a lot better result, too.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

SIGNYM

Thursday, April 23, 2009 2:40 PM

Okay. Except for Jongsstraw (and Frem) who seems to be outliers, my various conversations with people and what they want out of an economic system: whether it is capitalism. socialism, or something else- is very simple:

Prosperity. Now and for our children and THEIR children

Nobody wants an economic system because it makes us and our children poorer. Those who argue for capitalism... and I've spoken with many (Fletch, Geezer, et al, any of whom SHOULD chime in where I go wrong) say that the great disparity in wealth is what incentivizes progress, innovation, investment- prosperity for the future. Those who argue for socialism or for regulated capitalism or a green economy or something else, say the same.

Since we all* seem to want the same things, more or less, the only discussion after that is: How do we best get there? What are we willing to give up for it?

*Jongsstraw looks at work as a virtue in and of itself, to be rewarded, regardless of whether that works is necessary or can be replaced. Frem is willing to take a technological hit for greater freedom.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

KWICKO

Thursday, April 23, 2009 3:48 PM

Well, to some degree I find work a virtue and a reward in and of itself, too. I've done a great deal of work on other people's cars over the years, the vast majority of it for free, because I had the tools and know-how and they needed it and were poor like me.

I build my own furniture not just because I'm cheap (which I am), but because I don't find anyone building the pieces I like or want at a price I find reasonable. Again, I've got tools and some know-how, so why not try it myself?

These things I work at not for money, or for a job, or as a vocation or career, but because they relax me. I find my better self in the work. It forces me to slow down, think, plan, relax, and not push; it makes me pay attention and focus. All of these are things that I *DO* find helps me with my day job, too, but that's just a bonus, really. And I've tried working on cars for a living, and absolutely hated it, for the same reason I hate working on my own car at 3:00 in the morning because I have to get it running to get to work tomorrow - it's the deadline aspect of it, the MUST GET FINISHED part, which makes it WORK and not FUN.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

SERGEANTX

Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Since we all* seem to want the same things, more or less, the only discussion after that is: How do we best get there? What are we willing to give up for it?

Not sure where you're placing me in your construction, but I don't want a "system" that "provides" me with any in particular. Prosperity is a pretty vague term. Even amongst the people you're claiming to be in agreement, it varies wildly. I guess this pings my central issue with most of western society. We don't have to decide there is one, or one set, of valid goals and then all agree to a "system" that promotes those goals. Really, what's wrong with "live and let live"?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

SIGNYM

Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:19 PM

Kwicko, I agree with you. One thing that people have not addressed is a possible distant future in which no work is necessary at all. IMHO "work" is a basic human drive, as necessary as eating or sleeping. It provides us with a sense of control and - in Jongsstraw's case- a sense of shared gaols, a community. So the theoretical endpoint of the arc described by our current trends is prolly unhealthy for us, just as our constant drive for food in a food-rich environment is causing an obesity issue, and our drive for visual stimulation and entertainment is causing a disconnect from reality.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:38 PM

SergeantX: Since you bring it up, homesteading wouldn't be a bad way to go either. I'm pretty easy, so long as society stops churning out lonely disconnected desperate people, or people who just don't care about much of anything.

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Okay. Except for Jongsstraw (and Frem) who seems to be outliers, my various conversations with people and what they want out of an economic system: whether it is capitalism. socialism, or something else- is very simple:

Prosperity. Now and for our children and THEIR children

Nobody wants an economic system because it makes us and our children poorer. Those who argue for capitalism... and I've spoken with many (Fletch, Geezer, et al, any of whom SHOULD chime in where I go wrong) say that the great disparity in wealth is what incentivizes progress, innovation, investment- prosperity for the future. Those who argue for socialism or for regulated capitalism or a green economy or something else, say the same.

Since we all* seem to want the same things, more or less, the only discussion after that is: How do we best get there? What are we willing to give up for it?

*Jongsstraw looks at work as a virtue in and of itself, to be rewarded, regardless of whether that works is necessary or can be replaced. Frem is willing to take a technological hit for greater freedom.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

I'm having trouble trying to figure out just what kind of world you and Rue think we live in regarding technology and work. I have almost no exposure to many "creative" or "artsy" fields, but have worked and been exposed to planning production, marketing, contracts, customer service and management. My company has technology in the forms of T-1 line, co. website, e-mail, instant messaging, but we all still "work". We meet, we plan, we follow-up, we discipline, we promote, we hire & fire. Millions of jobs, like delivery drivers, food service workers, factory workers, real estate agents, secretaries, office clerks, maintenance workers, supervisors, directors, SVP's etc all work hard every day to keep their jobs. Technology cannot replace these jobs. For every creature comfort we have, someone else has worked hard to develop it, plan it, produce it, package it, advertise it, and deliver it to you. In some cases technology HAS freed up people to be more productive. Go To My PC, and Go To Meetings have reduced travel costs and reduced the need to commute to a physical place of work for some. Business is always about reducing expenses and improving methodologies to be more profitable and efficient. So what are you saying Signy? We should all stay home and let foreigners do everything for us? How does that work?

KWICKO

Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Kwicko, I agree with you. One thing that people have not addressed is a possible distant future in which no work is necessary at all. IMHO "work" is a basic human drive, as necessary as eating or sleeping. It provides us with a sense of control and - in Jongsstraw's case- a sense of shared gaols, a community. So the theoretical endpoint of the arc described by our current trends is prolly unhealthy for us, just as our constant drive for food in a food-rich environment is causing an obesity issue, and our drive for visual stimulation and entertainment is causing a disconnect from reality.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

Another thing to consider is that often, it's the "work" of certain people - artists, architects, craftspeople of all sorts - that drives the aesthetic of the age. They don't set out to set the design trends, they often aren't even doing it for the money; many times, they're just driven to create - that's the "work" that drives them forward, and in the process, pulls us all into the future with them.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

SIGNYM

Thursday, April 23, 2009 4:56 PM

Jongsstraw. both Rue and I are analytical chemists, and before that Rue was a med tech in a county "stat" lab and I was a "source tester" (climbed smoke stacks for a living). Also, maintaining a family is work. Keeping your house up is work.

AT this point in our technology work is a necessity and I'm certainly not saying that work can (or even should) be abolished. What I AM saying is that if you were to take all of the necessary work that our culture requires and divide it up by all of adults who are able to work, it would prolly come out to about 20 hours a week, possibly even less. So why the huge emphasis on hard work?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Jongsstraw. both Rue and I are analytical chemists, and before that Rue was a med tech in a county "stat" lab and I was a "source tester" (climbed smoke stacks for a living). Also, maintaining a family is work. Keeping your house up is work.

AT this point in our technology work is a necessity and I'm certainly not saying that work can (or even should) be abolished. What I AM saying is that if you were to take all of the necessary work that our culture requires and divide it up by all of adults who are able to work, it would prolly come out to about 20 hours a week, possibly even less. So why the huge emphasis on hard work?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

My answer to your question will likely seem old-fashioned to you, but here goes...If you want to succeed in business, work harder and smarter than everyone around you. Come in early, leave late. Be loyal, honest, and committed. Put things in the perspective that it's your company and your money. Does all this guarantee that you will advance in a company? No, but you won't know until you try. If your extra efforts are not recognized or appreciated, you can stay on with pride that you've done your best, or you can consider moving on. Honestly, I see many young people apply and start working where I'm employed. Some have that special quality a company is looking for and demonstrate it almost immediately. Others seem to have either an attitude problem, or un-realisitc expectations of what work is supposed to be.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:33 PM

Not just in the company, but between companies, too, I'd imagine.

SERGEANTX

Thursday, April 23, 2009 5:46 PM

Since I was ignored, I'll try again.

What's wrong with "live and let live"?

The reason I favor capitalism among economic systems is because, in theory, it demands the least "system" to operate. It offers the most opportunity for people to live the way they choose, short of various versions of anarchy or tribalism, which aren't really economic systems.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

SIGNYM

Thursday, April 23, 2009 6:32 PM

Jongsstraw, I feel that we are talking at cross-purposes here. Either I'm missing your point or you're missing mine. WHAT IF everything that we ever wanted COULD be produced by a mere 20 hours of work per week, and we could all get along just fine on that? What is the PURPOSE of creating system system where "hard work" is rewarded by "success", if "hard work" isn't even necessary?

Sarge- sorry, not ignoring you. Your point is well-taken, but too complex to get into right now.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Jongsstraw, I feel that we are talking at cross-purposes here. Either I'm missing your point or you're missing mine. WHAT IF everything that we ever wanted COULD be produced by a mere 20 hours of work per week, and we could all get along just fine on that? What is the PURPOSE of creating system system where "hard work" is rewarded by "success", if "hard work" isn't even necessary?

It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

I cannot imagine any scenario where hard work would not be necessary. Hey I'd LOVE to work only 20 hours a week believe me, but then why would my employer pay me what I get now for working less than half the time I put in now. If we're talking just theory here, you give me a system that I can retain my current income with only 20 hrs/week and I will sign up with bells on.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:30 PM

SergeantX: Hee hee! I got that! Yeah, no worries, I know my anarchy/tribal ideas are kind of soft on the actual number crunching economics.

I don't think anything's wrong with live and let live. Although, just how much of a disconnect are we talking about encouraging here? Hermits do just fine, but not everyone's a hermit.

It's easy to disassociate the human factor from economics, but I'm not so sure it should be done. The people who work work work, all the time, just gunning for profits and success... That seems really empty to me. I know it sounds weird and maybe contradictory for me to say that, considering what I've said previously in the thread, but remember I consider myself a special circumstance.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:40 PM

*blinks, stares at Byte*

How that got past me I got no idea, I been busy as of late though.

I too favor moving to an extended family/clan/tribe social structure, historically it's really worked quite well overall - and happen to be about as obvious an anarchist as you'll find, just that my way of gettin there doesn't involve carnage and destruction, is all.

-F

RIPWASH

Thursday, April 23, 2009 7:41 PM

What I think Jongs is trying to get across is that hard work in an attempt to acheive a certain result is what makes a success. He brought up Oprah, Tiger, etc. as an example because they worked hard to become what they are today. Tiger practiced and practiced to become one of the best golfers of our time. If he just went out a couple times a week, didn't try to improve his swing, his short game, etc, then he would not have become successful. Doctors have to "work hard" by studying and striving to become very good at what they do because the masses depend on them to do their jobs correctly. If these doctors did NOT "work hard" they wouldn't even pass the exams. If Thomas Edison (and other inventors) didn't "work hard" and gave up after the first 10 tries at creating the light bulb, where would that leave us today? Someone else may have discovered it? Possibly, but not without hard work and determination.

So by working hard to try and make the world a better place, THAT'S where industry and improvement comes from. If NO ONE worked hard or tried to maked things easier or better, then nothing would ever really be accomplished. We might as well be living on Miranda.

Now, in terms of what you are trying to say in terms of physical hard work. Yes, that would be ideal. For everybody to only work a 20 hour week and have more time for themselves and their families, to read, do hobbies, etc. BUT, that would mean that everyone would only be making a certain amount of money per day/week/year. And that's where the whole economic system would possibly deteriorate. There would be more people working (0% unemployement) but overall everyone would be making less money. Not to mention not every job pays the same rate to begin with. So, for the perfect "everyone works, everyone works less, everyone is happy" wouldn't really work either. A burger flipper, working the new full-time hours of 20 hrs a week, wouldn't make the same as a computer programmer and if he WERE that would would be one dang expensive hamburger.

Somewhere it was mentioned that technology has made it possible for us to do less work and that is completely true, but it is also completely true (as also mentioned) that groups such as the UAW would not allow the US car companies to modernize to the extent they intended to originally because of the amount of people it would have put out of work. It was marginally allowed by the unions later with the added implementation of the jobs bank which payed thousands of people to sit around and do nothing. Add to that, the unions wanted more money for less work to the point where it got ridiculous.

What you're thinking of, possibly, is the "pie in the sky" vision created by Gene Rodenberry. After Warp technology was created and we're contacted by an alien race, we all lay down our weapons and become a relatively peaceful race. Money is abolished, we all work together for the betterment of all mankind, etc. How the whole money thing would ever actually work, I have no idea. I think it wouldn't work in a monetary system at all. The economics just wouldn't work out and SOMEONE would be making a ton of money and several others making very, very little.

I remember hearing about the first US settlement Jamestown (and I admit this may be a myth). They tried a system where everyone worked the fields and shared in the overall harvest. Well, the problem with that was that many people STOPPED contributing to the labor and left the work to others, but still expected to get a char of the harvest. Was that fair? Of course not. So the governor had to rework the laws so that every man worked their own field for their own benefit and was able to share in the bounty if they cared to and for a profit if they saw fit. If anyone can shed any light on that, I'd appreciate it. I can't find anything right away.

To answer your question about what I want . . . the government to be held accountable in terms of what they actually do with our money. I want it to become fiscally responsible, I want term limi

BYTEMITE

Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:14 PM

Well heck yeah, Frem! I figure anarchy is just going to be the natural progression of events, no need for any violent overthrow at all. Eventually the damn fascists are going to take themselves out, because all their goals are counter-productive for human life.

In fact, I'm praying there won't be a violent coup, because they always tend to be radical in the "restore the original government to it's pure form" sense of the word. Radical: latin, derived from "root."

And seeing a government reinstalled that I think is prone to inevitably decline into decay and corruption, prompting ANOTHER overthrow... That runs counter to everything I hope for for the human race. See, I'd kind of actually like to see all the cyclical class-struggle and bloodshed STOP.

SIGNYM

Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:17 PM

Quote:
If we're talking just theory here, you give me a system that I can retain my current income with only 20 hrs/week and I will sign up with bells on.

You sure about that? There would be tradeoffs, yanno.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:29 PM

I don't know about Jamestown: actually what I heard was that on ocassion they were a little too stubborn to learn from their native american neighbors, and a lot of them died the first year because they drank bloody salt water instead of moving up the estuary to where the water is fresh. Nor did they anticipate any problems when the Iroquois migrated inland in preparation for hurricane season...

BUT! We do have a myth just like that in Utah! The Mormon Church (which I'm NOT a part of) says that when Brigham Young first brought the pioneers to where they founded Salt Lake City, he tried some sort of shared produce from the fields communal project... Which they say failed for some reason. But it's obviously a myth, and a politicized anti-socialism morality message from conservatives that dominate the state, because the Mormon church STILL uses the silos where it collects grains to distribute to the less fortunate. Really, they're probably the most socialistic organization in the entire United States, and that INCLUDES the socialist parties.

So I'd suspect, RipWASH, is that what you're hearing is a similar myth.

And I agree with you on most everything there, in that Capitalism certainly wouldn't work without people working at least 8 hours. And even in other systems, like the one I advocate, people kind of need to work so they have something to do, progress to make, ideas to develop.

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
If we're talking just theory here, you give me a system that I can retain my current income with only 20 hrs/week and I will sign up with bells on.
You sure about that? There would be tradeoffs, yanno.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

Jeeesh Signy, I give you honest answers to your questions, and then you keep upping the ante. Hey, we've had the better part of a day here engaged in a civil manner. Let's call it a day while we're ahead.

JONGSSTRAW

Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
What you're thinking of, possibly, is the "pie in the sky" vision created by Gene Rodenberry. After Warp technology was created and we're contacted by an alien race, we all lay down our weapons and become a relatively peaceful race. Money is abolished, we all work together for the betterment of all mankind, etc.

Face it, if we all had a replicator and a holodeck, we wouldn't need much else.

BYTEMITE

Thursday, April 23, 2009 8:46 PM

What a scary thought.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, April 23, 2009 9:26 PM

Quote:
And seeing a government reinstalled that I think is prone to inevitably decline into decay and corruption, prompting ANOTHER overthrow... That runs counter to everything I hope for for the human race. See, I'd kind of actually like to see all the cyclical class-struggle and bloodshed STOP.

Ayep.

The reason I liken it to a child leaving the home of an abusive parent and striking out on their own is because it really is the same dynamic, just writ on a national scale.

And the sooner we learn this, the sooner we accept this - the sooner we will grow up as a species, and eventually look back on this in the same mildly derisive tone we do the dark ages.

My current focus is on elevating our children to the same level of personhood that women now enjoy, because given the evidence, how they were once considered subhuman property (and sadly in some places still are*) that DID change, and yet children are still considered subhuman critters about on the level of housepets ?

Nope, gotta fix that, before we step forward, cause in that lie the seeds of carnage, and we'd best stop planting them as soon as possible instead of trying to weed the garden from the other end, or else it's pointless.

-Frem

*That being why my support of RAWA is so wholehearted despite my personal opinion they don't play hardball enough.

SIGNYM

Friday, April 24, 2009 12:14 AM

Quote:
Jeeesh Signy, I give you honest answers to your questions, and then you keep upping the ante. Hey, we've had the better part of a day here engaged in a civil manner. Let's call it a day while we're ahead.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

Well, I appreciate your honest answers. I really do!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

SIGNYM

Friday, April 24, 2009 1:07 AM

Okay, to do some pencil-whipping about how much work is REALLY required: (I used the latest available figures- from 2006 to 2009.)

There are roughly 305 million people in the USA. About 28% (84 million) are under 20. About 13% (38 million) are over 65. According to ITTATC 19 million working age adults are disabled. That leaves approximately 162 million employable adults.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States
www.ittatc.org/technical/litreview/e.php

Out of those, approximately 140 million are employed at an average of 33 hours per week.

www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

If we were to take those hours and spread them across the entire work - able population, that comes out to an average work-week of about 28 hours. (You may get slightly different numbers because the ones I posted are rounded.)

Now, as far as lifestyle is concerned, the per capita income of the United States... literally, the total income of the United States averaged over every man, woman, and child... is $36,700.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104652.html

If we take that per-capita income and distribute it over working AND RETIRED adults, that comes out to an average of $67,300 dollars per year for a 28-hour work-week OR as a retirement income. Clearly, there is more than enough money to go around, and the work that's currently being done isn't as "hard" as the work that we currently require.

The greatest discrepancy is in the distribution of income. Roughly 50% of the total income goes to 10% of the population.
www.econ.berkeley.edu/~saez/saez-UStopincomes-2006prel.pdf
However, it is doubtful that this 10% actually does 50% of the total work! And almost 25% of the total income in the USA goes to the top 1%! WHAT does this 1% do that "earns" them a quarter of the total wealth? (Over $390,000 per year per person) These are hedge-fund managers, bank presidents, CEOs, CFOs... people who work WITH MONEY every day. The top 400 taxpayers made approximately 60% through capital gains.

So, if you want a system that rewards "hard work"... we appear not to have it. At least, not for the very wealthy.
---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

KWICKO

Friday, April 24, 2009 1:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
My answer to your question will likely seem old-fashioned to you, but here goes...If you want to succeed in business, work harder and smarter than everyone around you. Come in early, leave late. Be loyal, honest, and committed. Put things in the perspective that it's your company and your money. Does all this guarantee that you will advance in a company? No, but you won't know until you try. If your extra efforts are not recognized or appreciated, you can stay on with pride that you've done your best, or you can consider moving on. Honestly, I see many young people apply and start working where I'm employed. Some have that special quality a company is looking for and demonstrate it almost immediately. Others seem to have either an attitude problem, or un-realisitc expectations of what work is supposed to be.

I worked through a temp agency for a while some years back, and they sent me on a warehouse job with 20 others in my group. I jumped right in, worked hard, and had others whom I'd started with telling me to slow down and make it last. I told them that I viewed this as akin to an NFL tryout - you give 'em everything you've got, leave it all out there, and at the end of the run (it was seasonal work), maybe, MAYBE one of us would get an offer for a permanent position.

And I was right. I was the last seasonal employee to be let go, and a couple months later they called me to offer me a permanent position. I'd already accepted a better-paying gig at the time, but I remain friends with my boss from that job, and he gave me an outstanding reference when I was interviewing for my current job.

I had a boss one time who told me I should slow down my work and stretch it out to get more hours. He also told me I shouldn't try to show the other printers (it was a print shop) all my tricks, but should hold some knowledge back to make myself more valuable. I told him I could teach them every single thing I knew about printing and I'd still be safe in my job, because everything I taught them I had to learn on my own, and I had a twenty year head start.

By the way, within a year I had that boss's job, and he was out on his ass for sandbagging the overtime.

So yeah, I know a li'l' bit about hard work. Been working pretty much non-stop for almost 35 years, since I was 13. If I'm lucky, I'll be working 'til the day I die.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

SIGNYM

Friday, April 24, 2009 1:33 AM

Just wait till you get to be MY age, son. I remember saying the same thing when I was your age. After hearing it several thousand times and running significantly short-staffed for four years with all kinds of extra "emergency" projects I finally got fed up with the whole "do more with less" mantra...

Fuck 'em. It's an artificial demand. It's an artificial shortage of jobs

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

RIPWASH

Friday, April 24, 2009 12:11 PM

So basically, what you're saying in your scenario is that you think it's fair to pay a burger-flipper at McDonalds with no education the same as a doctor with 8+ years of education doing research to cure cancer which is a base pay of $67K+ a year? How does that make sense? If everyone knew they would make that amount of money no matter what they did, then where would the incentive be to do MORE and make the world a better place? Sure, medical expenses would go down, but the cost of a burger at McDonalds would go WAY UP!!! That means you're willing to pay EVERYONE who works at a fast food joint approximately $46.22/hour for a 28 hour work week. The mantra would be "Why should I do any more work than the other guy when he's just going to end up making the same salary as me anyway?"

You may as well take it to the Star Trek Extreme and say why pay anyone anything at all? Let our efforts and contributions be enough to pay our way through society and all of our needs. Under that system we will ALL work hard for the betterment of mankind.

. . . . .

Yeah . . . . right.

I'm sorry if that comes across as mean spirited. Just meant it as sarcastic. I just don't see how that would work. As Utopian as it may sound, I just don't think the economics of it would work favorably in the long run.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

SIGNYM

Friday, April 24, 2009 12:28 PM

Are YOU saying that it's fair to pay a health insurance executives- whose sole function, it seems, is to protect his fat paycheck and rip everyone off- twenty TIMES more than any doctor, who is actually in the business of saving lives? Thats it "fair" that these administrators suck 30% out of every dollar YOU pay for health insurance?

For what?

I'm not advocating universal flat salary. Hell, no! That would be as unfair as a FLAT TAX, wouldn't it? But CLEARLY our compensation system is flawed. It doesn't reward hard work, advanced education, or brilliant insight. Its skewed to favor the uber-wealthy, who do little of anything except screw us over and hang like leeches on the carotid arteries of commerce.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

SIGNYM

Friday, April 24, 2009 12:57 PM

Look, I'm just trying to bring some clarity to our thinking.

We peons... and yes, we're peons here... simply CANNOT imagine the wealth and power above our heads. There are things we take as so fundamental we never think about - much less question: Unemployment. Substandard to marginal wages. Insecurity. Lack of options and real power in our lives. "Hard work."

We think we're somehow privileged that we get to scramble at the bottom of the barrel against each other, the Chinese, the Vietnamese... whoever is willing to work for less than we are. And we defend it on the basis that it's "fair" because "hard work" is necessary and should be rewarded. Meanwhile, the people who REALLY control the system... and trust me, its not you or me!... apply no such standards to themselves. They have no problems with lining their pockets because they can. They vote themselves fat paychecks, juicy bonuses, and hundred-million-dollar stock options because their buddies... who sit on the same interlocking Boards and play golf at the same exclusive clubs... will be depending on them to return the favor. They pit us against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely!

If YOU think we have a system that rewards hard work, you really haven't been looking. When the top 1% rake in 25% of the ENTIRE compensation of the United States... something is seriously askew because clearly these people are not putting in 25% of the work! So, to get back to unemployment for a second, here's a question for you. I dare you to answer but I'll bet you can't: In a world of desperate need, where people starve to death due to lack of food, or shit to death due to lack of clean water... where billions go without education or health care or decent housing. where the entire planet needs rehabilitation. And in OUR nation where drug-dealing is sometimes the best option and people are fundamentally insecure about their future.... Why do we have unemployment?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

JONGSSTRAW

Friday, April 24, 2009 1:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So yeah, I know a li'l' bit about hard work. Been working pretty much non-stop for almost 35 years, since I was 13.

That explains why you're always grumpy and pissed. You're a tired old man who needs a vacation.

SIGNYM

Friday, April 24, 2009 2:00 PM

Anyway, Sarge, part of my answer to your statement is in my previous post.

There is nothing "voluntary" about capitalism. You think that just because you're free to roam your prison cell that you're free. You simply aren't looking past your own boundaries. But any time you work for someone or buy something made under a capitalist system you automatically pay a 30% "capitalism tax".

So, good luck with freedom and all that.

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

RIPWASH

Friday, April 24, 2009 2:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm not advocating universal flat salary. Hell, no! That would be as unfair as a FLAT TAX, wouldn't it? But CLEARLY our compensation system is flawed. It doesn't reward hard work, advanced education, or brilliant insight. Its skewed to favor the uber-wealthy, who do little of anything except screw us over and hang like leeches on the carotid arteries of commerce.

You may not advocate it, but you were the one who proposed it in the thread. Thus my response.

Many of the systems of anything are extremely flawed because of the human condition. Humans are selfish and greedy by their very nature. The majority will try to get as MUCH as we can for as LITTLE as possible. Exceptions, yes, of course there are. So we can all agree that capitalism is flawed and socialism is flawed - and either side will say one is more so than the other. The US government is clearly flawed (too big and self-righteous for it's own good on BOTH sides of the aisle). The economy is flawed. Unions are flawed (Needed at one point, but not so much anymore). Our health care system is flawed (I think insurance companies should be dissolved completely, IMHO). Social Security is flawed (and when one side wants to fix it the other side cries foul). Why? Because they all depend on a collective of honest, well-meaning people to make sure everything is done properly. Over time, the HUMAN influence will taint each and every system we can ever imagine. It would take a great deal of sacrifice on so many levels to fix everything in our day and age that it seems impossible and there would be so many roadblocks . . . don't even get me started.

So you ask a question that you claim has no answer then dare us to answer it? Hmmmm . . . interesting

I will say this, though. The uber-wealthy got so because of "hard work" and determination at some point in their family ancestry. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, were smart cookies. They and their partners developed something and marketed it and now everyone has what they created and seemingly can't live without it. So people pay a LOT of money for that stuff. These guys now have more than enough money to last several lifetimes. They have every right in my opinion to give it to their kids, who will then give it to their kids, etc. So yes, THOSE descendants will not have to work hard because of the innovation of their ancestors. Like the Kennedy's, the Rockefellers, etc.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

SIGNYM

Friday, April 24, 2009 2:34 PM

Actually, I wasn't advocating a flat income, I was just providing a pencil-whipping estimate of the average labor-hours are going into keeping this economy going, and the average compensation. i DO have a favored system which is neither socialism nor capitalism, but I think before we even start banging systems against each other we should come to some sort of realization as to what is possible and clarity about what we really want. Because there will always be tradeoffs.

Quote:
So you ask a question that you claim has no answer then dare us to answer it?

I didn't say it had no answer, I said (please don't take this badly) that YOU probably can't answer it.

Quote:
They and their partners developed something and marketed it

Gates and his partners viciously squashed competitors through illegal practices to build a monopoly, and got away with it because they partnered with the NSA to build back doors into their software. This is once again a defense of a system you clearly don't understand.

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

RUE

Friday, April 24, 2009 3:41 PM

All of the good ideas came from Allen, including the idea to get into the software business at all. It was Allen who convinced Gates to take on the job with Altair. Nearly all of the code was written by Allen and others. BTW, the original idea was that Gates and Allen would split 60/40 (though why Allen was supposed to only get 40% is a mystery to me. As the person with all the long-term technical and business insights, he should have been in line for 80% or more.) Somewhere along the line Gates screwed his 'friend' out of another 10%, reworking the agreement they had without telling Allen. And Gates - in his pronouncements and vision for the future - has always been a buffoon and secret embarrassment to his wanna-be fans.

The reason why Gates is so rich is b/c he's a bastard who would do ANYTHING to ANYBODY for money, no matter how unethical or illegal.

And b/c we have a system that often rewards the greediest and least ethical among us.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

RIPWASH

Friday, April 24, 2009 4:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
So you ask a question that you claim has no answer then dare us to answer it?
I didn't say it had no answer, I said (please don't take this badly) that YOU probably can't answer it.
Quote:
They and their partners developed something and marketed it
Gates and his partners viciously squashed competitors through illegal practices to build a monopoly, and got away with it because they partnered with the NSA to build back doors into their software. This is once again a defense of a system you clearly don't understand.

How could I possibly take being called an idiot NOT badly? Hmmmm... I guess I must be too stupid to understand you're line of thinking then. You propose a flat income to avoid hard work then call me an idiot for not understanding what you're proposing. And I was civil the whole time, too. I know you didn't flat out call me a moron, but it's certainly implied.

I brought up Gates AND Jobs (admittedly not the BEST examples) to imply that they and their ilk did indeed both come up with a type of computer system that the masses ended up wanting en masse. Right or wrong, their practices got them extremely rich (and yes, I do understand that they were downright bastards at the same time and it wasn't meant as me putting them on some lofty pedestal). But what I meant was that these guys, through their actions which were probably very similar to the Rockefellers, Kennedy's and the like (both extremely wealthy AND Democrats mind you). They were probably downright bastards also to garner their success also and THEIR children and grandchildren are doing quite well and hardly contributing to society at all.

I may not understand the system completely, but I dare say you do not fully understand it either. So stop acting all high and mighty on me.

Sorry. That just got me a little ticked. The attack against my intelligence, when you don't know me other than this website, is an insult. I may not be a chemist or astrophysicist or whatever you claim yourself and Rue to be, but I do have a modicum of intelligence and an ability to think for myself, than you very much.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

JONGSSTRAW

Friday, April 24, 2009 5:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:

How could I possibly take being called an idiot NOT badly?
Sorry. That just got me a little ticked. The attack against my intelligence, when you don't know me other than this website, is an insult. I may not be a chemist or astrophysicist or whatever you claim yourself and Rue to be, but I do have a modicum of intelligence and an ability to think for myself, than you very much.

Don't give it a passing thought friend. They call everybody stupid here. It's a badge of honor to be called stupid by them.

RUE

Friday, April 24, 2009 5:05 PM

"did indeed both come up with a type of computer system that the masses ended up wanting en masse"

Again, not true. Due to (illegal) licensing agreements with vendors, for the longest time that was ALL you could get at the going price.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Friday, April 24, 2009 5:07 PM

Quote:
How could I possibly take being called an idiot NOT badly? Hmmmm... I guess I must be too stupid to understand you're line of thinking then. You propose a flat income to avoid hard work then call me an idiot for not understanding what you're proposing. And I was civil the whole time, too. I know you didn't flat out call me a moron, but it's certainly implied.

I DO apologize. I am so very sorry. I tend to do that, and it gets very much in the way of what I'm trying to say. Sorry, sorry, sorry!

If it makes you feel any better you can kick me three times around the block 'cause I deserve it!

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

RIPWASH

Friday, April 24, 2009 5:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"did indeed both come up with a type of computer system that the masses ended up wanting en masse"

Again, not true. Due to (illegal) licensing agreements with vendors, for the longest time that was ALL you could get at the going price.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

*SIGH*
Whatever then . . . pick another example with your ginormous intellect.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

SIGNYM

Friday, April 24, 2009 5:55 PM

Okay, anyway... I will try not to be so infuriatingly snarky as I do, indeed, appreciate the honest and insightful conversation!

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

RIPWASH

Friday, April 24, 2009 5:59 PM

That was directed toward Rue. Your apology is accepted. No hard feelings.

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

RUE

Friday, April 24, 2009 6:00 PM

Rip - YOU are the one with a point to make. It is up to YOU to illustrate your point to show it is a good one.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Friday, April 24, 2009 6:06 PM

Quote:
That was directed toward Rue. Your apology is accepted. No hard feelings.

We cool then? GREAT!

I want you- and Jongsstraw, Sarge and others- to know that this board HAS changed my thinking. While I'm still extremely skeptical about the basis and future of capitalism (IMHO it doesn't do what it says it does, and it's got a fatal internal contradiction that keeps needing to be papered over with a bigger and bigger money supply) I've also become more skeptical about the willingness of our current political system - democracy tho it is- to tackle our problems. It has a 65/35 history. Not all bad, but definitely not all good either. Too corrupted by wealthy/ powerful entities and interests to really promote democracy and freedom.

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

RUE

Friday, April 24, 2009 6:34 PM

Rip

At this point I AM going to give you the insult you so clearly deserve.

"How could I possibly take being called an idiot NOT badly? Hmmmm... I guess I must be too stupid to understand you're line of thinking then. You propose a flat income to avoid hard work then call me an idiot for not understanding what you're proposing. And I was civil the whole time, too. I know you didn't flat out call me a moron, but it's certainly implied.
^
|
That was directed toward Rue."

Point out where I made these comments.

POINT OUT WHERE I INSULTED YOU. Point out where I personally directed any comment to you. Point out where I even IMPLIED a personal insult, anywhere. Point out where I did ANYTHING except disagree using historical facts, and discuss using logic.

YOU ARE A LYING ASS.

There. NOW you have your personal insult.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Friday, April 24, 2009 6:40 PM

Rue, I think RIP confused us. Happens a lot cause we sound a lot alike. I definitely deserved a slap uspide the head, you IMHO did not. Just chalk it up to an oops and let it go.

Anyway, Sarge, in case you missed it, I did reply to your post. What I said was: There's nothing voluntary about capitalism. Every time you work for someone or buy something made in a capitalist system you pay a 30% "capitalism tax". That we are given narrow options by the PTB, and being free to choose among the bad options given to us isn't "freedom".

As I value your opinion, I wonder what you think about my viewpoint.

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

RUE

Friday, April 24, 2009 6:42 PM

NO. I get accused of a LOT of crap that I don't do.

I have HAD it with that shit.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Friday, April 24, 2009 6:46 PM

Yeah, but mostly by peeps like rappy. Consider the source.

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

RIPWASH

Friday, April 24, 2009 7:35 PM

Rue - I never insulted you and you calling me names is uncalled for. I clearly responded to each of your posts with the quotes from each post that I had issues with. So please consider THAT before ripping on ME. My initial response was to Signym on what SHE said and I indicated it as such by referencing HER quote. Not yours.

Rue - my response to you, to which I referenced your quote, was a frustrated resignation with YOUR insistence on pointing out the flaws in my example of Gates and company. If you want to pick out the flaws so badly, then please pick your own example. That is all that was meant.

Let's move past this, shall we?

Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, April 24, 2009 8:06 PM

Easy now, folks...

For the most part it seems despite our disagreements, and with the exception of a few lunatics, we're mostly moving towards a consensus here, which is pretty cool.

As for why we have unemployment, for the same reason we have starvation despite more than enough resources to feed the whole goddamn planet twice over - quite deliberately for use as a political platform in combination to the neglect, inefficiency and outright greed of our current system.

I remember as a very young man wondering why the hell we were paying farmers to not grow food, or to let it rot, while americans were starving, and me being me, went about findin the hell out, and came away not liking the answers one damn bit.

I wish I could invest more time and thought in this convo right now, but alas I am up to my neck in catherding a bunch of well-meaning idiots while protecting them from pre-emptive assault and agents provacateur on a massive scale and it's kinda melting my brains and takin up all my time at the moment.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Friday, April 24, 2009 8:21 PM

Wow. I step away from this thread for one day and the socialists are at each others throats.

JONGSSTRAW

Friday, April 24, 2009 8:23 PM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Friday, April 24, 2009 8:28 PM

At least he made it past April 15. Wait until 2010 when I'll bet the $$$ is spent before the IRS even has it.

KWICKO

Friday, April 24, 2009 8:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So yeah, I know a li'l' bit about hard work. Been working pretty much non-stop for almost 35 years, since I was 13.

That explains why you're always grumpy and pissed. You're a tired old man who needs a vacation.

You may be onto something there, Jongsy. Don't matter, though - I don't get to take vacation. If I did, the other people at work would either screw things up so bad that I'd have to work twice as hard once I got back, or they'd figure out that they could do it without me! Can't risk either of those things...

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

KIRKULES

Friday, April 24, 2009 9:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Easy now, folks...

For the most part it seems despite our disagreements, and with the exception of a few lunatics, we're mostly moving towards a consensus here, which is pretty cool.

If we could just reach consensus on who the "lunatics" are.

BYTEMITE

Friday, April 24, 2009 9:57 PM

Aw, does it matter? Sometimes even "lunatics" have good ideas. It's always the people on the fringe who come up with the solutions, not the people shouting down on the floor.

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, April 24, 2009 9:58 PM

That's easy Kirk - the answer, not just to you, but to everyone, is as close as the nearest mirror.

We're ALL nuts in some way, I was just making a subtle joke as a mild chainyank.

I'd get more into the discussion, but I got a huge pile on my inbox (am chuggin a Bologna & Cheese "lunch" at the moment) and have a crap ton of stuff to handle - and it's only gettin worse since locally I get tapped to handle THIS matter, since our police protection is all but illusory despite the expense...
http://rebelreports.com/post/98982420/us-cities-increasing-use-of-arme
d-mercenaries-to

Private security ain't mercs, Blackwater, etc are PMCs, NOT private security, and private security has a pretty decent code and conduct once you discount the bastards playin footsie with the military and alphabet goons, and now I gotta write a damn proceedures and ethics manual from almost scratch as a universal guideline for this whole damn county, oh joy oh joy...

And the SHIT that passes for word processors these days is such crap I am tempted as hell to go dig out my goddamn manual Underwood Five and have at it THAT way and they can scan it to PDF later, grrrrr...

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

KIRKULES

Friday, April 24, 2009 10:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Are YOU saying that it's fair to pay a health insurance executives- whose sole function, it seems, is to protect his fat paycheck and rip everyone off- twenty TIMES more than any doctor, who is actually in the business of saving lives? Thats it "fair" that these administrators suck 30% out of every dollar YOU pay for health insurance?

For what?

The health industry is highly regulated by Government, so you can hardly blame Capitalism for fat cat insurance executives. We only have ourselves to blame because we continually reelect a Senate and House that are in the pockets of the insurance lobby. If voters weren't so complacent we could fix this in one election cycle.

Quote:

I'm not advocating universal flat salary. Hell, no! That would be as unfair as a FLAT TAX, wouldn't it? But CLEARLY our compensation system is flawed. It doesn't reward hard work, advanced education, or brilliant insight. Its skewed to favor the uber-wealthy, who do little of anything except screw us over and hang like leeches on the carotid arteries of commerce.

I think you're right that a one rate "Flat Tax" will never fly, but how about a progressive flat rate tax were you would simply take the rate for your bracket multiplied times your gross income and that's your tax. No deductions, no loopholes period. The entire new tax code could be written on one page instead to the thousands in the current code.

SIGNYM

Friday, April 24, 2009 10:34 PM

Quote:
The health industry is highly regulated by Government

How?

---------------------------------
They pit us like dogs against each other and rake it in. And I'll bet they laugh when they hear dupes like you defend the system that fucks you over and rewards them so nicely! But the one thing they'll stamp out in horror as if it were the spark of conflagration is any whiff of socialism. That should tell you something.

SIGNYM

Saturday, April 25, 2009 1:21 AM

Damnit! Blanked again!

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