450 posts IS a worse crime than wanting to kill us .

POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Friday, May 22, 2009 14:59
VIEWED: 29463
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KWICKO

Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Sometimes intel is gotten the Jack bauer way. In fact, intel gathered from individual sources has been some of the most crucial. In any case, if intel can be corroborated it is. Much of the time it is not and it can’t be. The accuracy of intel is sometimes a fuzzy subject when the need to act is deemed imperative. That’s just the way the world is. The crucial difference between killing in self defense and the use of coercive interrogation is perhaps that the interrogator is not himself in danger. That doesn’t change the fact that a single piece of intel gathered from a single source could in fact save the lives of innocent people.

Cites?

You seem unwilling or unable to provide specific examples. Are we to just take your word for it? As you asked Anthony, on what do you base your presumptions?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

KWICKO

Thursday, April 23, 2009 11:57 AM

Rappy bump:

Quote:
Since you insist that waterboarding isn't torture unless it's done to someone in uniform, let me put a scenario to you:

Say the Iranians have tried and convicted a 30-year-old Iranian-American woman - an American citizen not serving in the military or the diplomatic corps - on charges of spying. Now, since she's clearly NOT a soldier, nor wearing the uniform of any recognized armed forces, then they are clearly within their rights to waterboard her, are they not? I mean, they can use whatever means necessary to "break" her, since she is, in essence, a "terrorist" - at least in their eyes, and according to their law.

So you're totally okay with them doing this, yes?

By the way, her name is Roxana Saberi. She was a former contestant in a Miss North Dakota beauty pageant, holds two masters degrees, and is a graduate of Northwestern, with a degree in journalism.

Iran has a golden opportunity here. They can use the exact same methods that the U.S. has used, and we can't say shit about it, OR they can gain international favor by NOT torturing this girl, and then they end up looking more civilized than we do. Either way, it doesn't work out too well for us...

The utter inability to address the question at hand is really showing up your cowardice, Rappy.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

GEEZER

Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
No, we're talking about drowning them in water. That's completely different - one is a slow way of killing someone, while the other is a way of killing someone slowly!

Any evidence that the U.S. has killed anyone by waterboarding them?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KPO

Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:32 PM

Quote:
I've never seen any where near the rage and anger toward the terrorists as I've seen displayed for those who decided that harsh interrogation, and NOT torture, was worth engaging in when the lives of 1000's of civilians was at risk. The phony, mock indignation of the Left over the NON issue of water boarding is a bit much to take.

The fact that you constantly feel the need to express 'rage and anger toward the terrorists' I find more interesting.

The rest of us are calm and objective most of the time in discussing the terrorist threat - why should we be constantly in a rage? Think about it, there's a time for fury and outrage - it's not ALWAYS. That would pretty much make you a crazy person...

I suspect deep down you know this. Either that or you are trying to prove the argument that right wing ideology is 'governed by fear'...?

Heads should roll

HERO

Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
Does that it might save lives make it right ?

No. Nothing makes it right to torture someone for information.

However, the prospect of saving lives creates a legal condition known as "exigent circumstances".

Generally this is recognized situations where there is a reasonable belief that life, property, or evidence may be in jeopardy. If this is the case the State may use that as justification to violate a person's Constitutional rights (such as a warrant requirement for entry into a private residence).

"When police have a reasonable and sincere fear that someone is in jeopardy and contraband might be destroyed, this usually constitutes sufficient exigency to justify a simultaneous, no-refusal entry." See McConney, 728 F.2d at 1206; Whitney, 633 F.2d at 909-10.

The harm is still there, so the mere fact that the lives are on the line does not make it right...rather it mitigates the harm...in effect cancelling out the wrong (ie still not right, but no longer wrong).

In order to effectively judge the correctness of the Bush administration's decsion we need to know the basis of that decision (what they reasonably believed) and the results of the interrogation (terror plots uncovered and lives saved). To that end President Obama should have and should now declassify ALL the memos and records. Should any sort of prosecution be undertaken it is likely those additional memos will be declassified by the Court as they would be essential to the defense.

Frankly, it was irresponsible to declassify the torture memos...but the President chose to do it, now it is completely unreasonable to declassify those without the others to give us the "rest of the story".

Cheney says they stopped a 9/11 second wave attack and saved thousands of lives. If thats true, we deserve to know, if its not...we need to know that too.

Truth is Obama is now in a corner. He's stopped these interrogations, then released the memos, which led to us learning the interrogations were effective in stopping attacks. If we are attacked again then he's completely screwed, if he tries to reverse his policy and it comes out, he's completely screwed. He'd have been better off keeping the whole thing secret so he'd have a card to play should we capture a person with information we need when lives are on the line.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

HERO

Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Cites?

You seem unwilling or unable to provide specific examples. Are we to just take your word for it? As you asked Anthony, on what do you base your presumptions?

How about: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30335592/

We pretended to drown them...they told us good stuff.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

GEEZER

Thursday, April 23, 2009 12:56 PM

Meanwhile, in today's news.

Quote:
Iraq: Suicide bombs kill scores

Violence is predicted to rise as US troop numbers start to be reduced

In Baghdad, a suicide bomber detonated a belt of explosives as police distributed aid to a crowd of homeless families, killing at least 28 people.

Another suicide bomber attacked a group of Iranian pilgrims in the north-eastern city of Baquba killing at least 45, reports say.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8014390.stm

Quote:
Hamas 'killing' Palestinian foes

Hamas must stop killing and torturing its political rivals in Gaza, Human Rights Watch has said.

At least 32 Palestinians have died and several more have been maimed in such cases during and since Israel's January military assault, the group said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8007756.stm

I've tried this exercise before, and usually get the same excuses why no one here expresses any outrage over mass murder while ranting about waterboarding. "It's not our country.", "We need to clean up our own house first", and the old reliable "It's all Bush's fault."

But really, isn't the life of the guy trying to run a fruit stand in a Baghdad market as valuable as that of a suspected terorist? Don't the deaths of kids playing in that market deserve at least a precentage of the rage you exhibit over inhumane, but non-lethal, interrogation?

Sorta makes me wonder if you don't really care about the victims at all, and just want to score debating points.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

AGENTROUKA

Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:13 PM

So if people started a thread of outrage over every suicide bombing taking place, would they then have your blessing to voice their opposition to torture?

What would the point be? Of course people are upset about the carnage and cruelty. What does that have to do with voicing their opposition to torture?

KWICKO

Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Cites?

You seem unwilling or unable to provide specific examples. Are we to just take your word for it? As you asked Anthony, on what do you base your presumptions?

How about: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30335592/

We pretended to drown them...they told us good stuff.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you"- Chrisisall, 2009.

You mean this memo?

Quote:
"The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means,” Admiral Blair said in a written statement issued last night. “The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

Yup. Good stuff.

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

KWICKO

Thursday, April 23, 2009 1:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Meanwhile, in today's news.

Quote:
Iraq: Suicide bombs kill scores

Violence is predicted to rise as US troop numbers start to be reduced

In Baghdad, a suicide bomber detonated a belt of explosives as police distributed aid to a crowd of homeless families, killing at least 28 people.

Another suicide bomber attacked a group of Iranian pilgrims in the north-eastern city of Baquba killing at least 45, reports say.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8014390.stm

Quote:
Hamas 'killing' Palestinian foes

Hamas must stop killing and torturing its political rivals in Gaza, Human Rights Watch has said.

At least 32 Palestinians have died and several more have been maimed in such cases during and since Israel's January military assault, the group said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8007756.stm

I've tried this exercise before, and usually get the same excuses why no one here expresses any outrage over mass murder while ranting about waterboarding. "It's not our country.", "We need to clean up our own house first", and the old reliable "It's all Bush's fault."

But really, isn't the life of the guy trying to run a fruit stand in a Baghdad market as valuable as that of a suspected terorist? Don't the deaths of kids playing in that market deserve at least a precentage of the rage you exhibit over inhumane, but non-lethal, interrogation?

Sorta makes me wonder if you don't really care about the victims at all, and just want to score debating points.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Of course, there's a very high probability (99%+) that those suicide bombings wouldn't have happened had we not invaded in the first place...

Hell, maybe the Iraqis should start capturing and torturing - er, I mean "harshly interrogating" - OUR guys, to see if they can save any innocent lives.

Would you agree to that?

Mike

Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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