Why CAN'T Ron Paul be President?

POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Thursday, March 26, 2009 18:35
VIEWED: 15149
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SERGEANTX

Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
To stay in a party just to say Nyah nyah nyah! I told you so!???

Actually, that's not what he said. He made salient points about the folly of the Bush Doctrine and how our historically idiotic foreign policy had more to do with 9/11 than anything happening in Iraq.

Ron Paul is not an idiot and never imagined he'd win the presidency. His intent was never more ambitious than the simple goal of getting the message out. He did that. And he probably did it much more effectively by maintaining nominal party affiliation.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

KWICKO

Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Then Ralph Nader should never have been interviewed.

Then H. Ross Perot did something literally impossible.

So, if you can figure out how they did it anyway, you have a template.

Did what exactly? Proved my point?

Perot was actually the impetus for many of the changes that lock out third parties today. Up until Perot's run, presidential debates were traditionally run by the League of Women voters. After Perot gave them a good scare, the two major parties agreed it was in their mutual interest to avoid anything that would give third parties a shot in the future. The changes they implemented, in part, prompted the LoWV to drop support for the debates stating:

"The League of Women Voters is withdrawing sponsorship of the presidential debates...because the demands of the two campaign organizations would perpetrate a fraud on the American voter. It has become clear to us that the candidates' organizations aim to add debates to their list of campaign-trail charades devoid of substance, spontaneity and answers to tough questions. The League has no intention of becoming an accessory to the hoodwinking of the American public"

Since then, the leaders of the two parties control the debates, eliminating, for all practical purposes, any chance of a third party candidate participating in the debates.

If our national media had the "balls" or the integrity of the League of Women Voters, they'd refuse to cover the debates and insist on an open, fair process. But they don't. And they won't.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

Interesting. I did not know that.

Mike

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, March 11, 2009 8:45 PM

It reminds me of the Ron Paul rally we had here last year.

Google Ron Paul Revolution March...

Something in the range of 75 thousand people were marching the streets.

What did the media cover? Dead ducks. I shit you not.

We walked by them asking if they wanted to cover ALL these people and what we stood for.

Naw...ducks were what they were after.

Even here in DC, a march of that size was HUGE...and yet not one single blurb...

It was amazing.

Plenty of cops with cameras tho. And helicopters.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Thursday, March 12, 2009 12:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Plenty of cops with cameras tho. And helicopters.

Yeah.... I often joke that I have my own satellite.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 12, 2009 2:21 PM

That's why I can't decide whether to laugh or cry when peeps talk about the "liberal" media. Trust me, if you had been tear-gassed, shot at, beaten and arrested you STILL wouldn't have made the news! 10,000 people were, and nary a peep.

Mayhem in Miami: Amidst Tear Gas and Rubber Bullets Democracy Now! Reports From the Streets of the FTAA Protests
www.democracynow.org/2003/11/21/mayhem_in_miami_amidst_tear_gas

Been saying all along, the problem is the media. Demonstrations and rallies are useless w/o media coverage, and the media has no intention of being anything other than a pro-corporatist corporation. The successful candidates have learned to use the internet to their advantage. If RP stays in the Republican Party just so he can get to the TV screen in the primaries, the problem is that his TV-watching audience is mostly repubs. He needs peeps with internet savvy in his campaign. Take a page frm Obama's playbook: Use the internet to raise money, and use that money to BUY your way into the media. Obama was in the Dem Party but don't forget: He was not The Anointed One. He BOUGHT himself a 30-minute commercial, which helped seal the deal

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Thursday, March 12, 2009 2:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Not sure I follow you on this, Jack.

Me neither.

Seems like Rue's point was pretty on-point and laid out and you came up with....

HUH?????

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

Quote:
The Ruemeister: Aside from those factors, Ron Paul has a lot of baggage - the racism posted on HIS website under HIS name, and his stand on abortion, for starters.

What racism? I believe you may be thinking of some supposed stuff he wrote in class years ago that were put out there to sully his rep. I got yelled at by my white math teacher in my all white class in my all white junior high school for making up a character named "Tyrone" that could barely speak English, for some stupid "role playing" crap my Junior High teacher taught to us like we were still in kindergarten. I was probably 8 years old when I saw my first "black person" when I went to downtown Chicago.

I was emulating stereotypes about somebody that I knew nothing about. You love kids Rue... you going to hold that against me?

But if you're talking about how he wants to keep any more foreigners out, you're damn right I'm behind that. We have to become a socialist system to support the ones that are already here.

The same goes for his desire to pull out any troops and dismantle US embassys in countries we don't belong in, seeing as how we weren't intended to be the machine to build a world empire from the start.

What is your belief that his stance on abortion is Rue?

I bet it's wrong....

He doesn't agree with abortion anymore than I do because it is murder, but he doesn't believe it's a federal decision and that those decisions should be made locally. Kinda like my smoking thing, if somebody couldn't get an abortion in one place, there would be other places that accomodated them. That way, people who didn't want babies murdered in their town didn't have to and people who wanted to murder their baby, for whatever their uniquely valid reasons were, would be able to do so.

With all the real problems we have in this country and world today, you're really hung up on things he said in a thesis about people he didn't know 50 years ago, his desire to start balancing the budget by not paying for healthcare or school for people who just swam over here, or the fact the guy doesn't like the idea of idiots killing babies, even though he's not telling idiots they can't kill babies?

Geez.... you got a one track mind Rue. Your way or the highway.

Quote:
I believe we have a two party system b/c our 'winner take all' government structure leaves no room for the opposition, or for coalitions.

Possibly... But I'd like to think that the two parties are in league with each other and let the trivial pendulum swing back and forth like a mesmerizing crystal dangling in the cleavage of the most beautiful hypnotist in the world while the everyday breeches on civil liberties move forward unhindered as we collectively sleep.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

KWICKO

Thursday, March 12, 2009 2:56 PM

So, using your own logic, and Ron Paul's, if you want to be able to smoke at work, why don't you just move, or get a job where you can smoke? It's just that damned simple, right?

I mean, if someone finds herself in a position that abortion is the only choice she comes to, your position is that it's perfectly fine with you if she needs to go some 2000 miles to get one, right?

Growing up in West Texas, I can tell you for a FACT that people had to go over 200 miles to obtain such a service - which ain't easy if you're poor and don't own a car! I knew a couple girls who made the trip, and drove one of 'em myself, because her worthless boyfriends bugged out the second he heard she was preggers.

Rather than let it be decided LOCALLY, why not let it be decided PRIVATELY, between a woman and her doctor? Why not make RU-486 available over the counter, since it's nobody's business but the people intimately involved in the situation in the first place?

Seems to me that getting that involved with a woman's body and what she chooses to do, isn't really very libertarian at all. A *REAL* libertarian would say, "Ain't nonna my damn business, 'less it's my kid."

Quote:

Possibly... But I'd like to think that the two parties are in league with each other and let the trivial pendulum swing back and forth...

Yeah, you'd like to think so - but that don't make it so. I've tried to explain that to PN for years - you might think it, you might even believe it, but that doesn't PROVE it. :)

Mike

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, March 12, 2009 3:26 PM

Actually, RPs point is this...

he can be against abortion as much as he wants to. He can hate it and think its the worst thing in the world...

But as President, he CANNOT DO A DAMNED THING ABOUT IT. He doesn't have that kind of authority.

Same with drugs or anything else you do to your body. The President doesnt have the right to get involved, AT ALL.

If a local district wants to make it legal to smoke weed, the federal government doen't have the right to tell them no.

Same for everything else.

Its suppossed to come down to local choices.

SERGEANTX

Thursday, March 12, 2009 3:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Seems to me that getting that involved with a woman's body and what she chooses to do, isn't really very libertarian at all. A *REAL* libertarian would say, "Ain't nonna my damn business, 'less it's my kid."

Ayup. RP's got it wrong on this one. I can respect the views of those who think that abortion is murder, and depending on how the argument is phrased, I can even agree. But the question becomes, how much wrong can we prevent with the power of law? How much do we want to?

We could, in theory, prevent all parental child abuse by installing cameras in every household and monitoring parents 24/7, but would we want to? What if we could implant a chip in all humans that caused them to fall unconscious at the mere thought of violence. Would we do that? The point is, sometimes the harm done in attempting to right a wrong is worse than the crime. In the case of abortion, we have a conflict between the right of a person to control the contents of their own body (the ultimate private property), and the responsibility of the law to protect all people.

We can argue all day about whether a fetus is a "people", but my point is that in attempting to save it we violate the inner workings of a woman's sovereignty over her own body completely. Saving potential life, or unborn children, isn't worth establishing a woman's womb as state property.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

RUE

Thursday, March 12, 2009 3:49 PM

"What racism? I believe you may be thinking of some supposed stuff he wrote in class years ago ..."

Ron Paul and racism:

"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A series of newsletters in the name of GOP presidential hopeful Ron Paul contain several racist remarks -- including one that says order was restored to Los Angeles after the 1992 riots when blacks went "to pick up their welfare checks."

CNN recently obtained the newsletters -- written in the 1990s and one from the late 1980s -- after a report was published about their existence in The New Republic."

And so on. I went to check it out when this hit the news early in the campaign, and followed the trail all the way to the original pdfs, which I read. It was pretty bad. It wasn't one sentence or one phrase - it was an entire racist rant. Multiple times. (BTW it was in part the reason why RP was sunk nationally.)

It took me about as long to find it as to type it. If you had an OUNCE of curiosity you would have found it too.

It seems to me that the people who complain the loudest about Obama being 'The One' don't have a problem with human deity worship - they just have a problem with the choice. They have their OWN deities they want worshipped !

***************************************************************

So get with the program !

KWICKO

Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:01 PM

Quote:

It seems to me that the people who complain the loudest about Obama being 'The One' don't have a problem with human deity worship - they just have a problem with the choice. They have their OWN deities they want worshipped !

Notably, an awful lot of them worship at the feet of Rush Limbaugh. (Not saying Kirk or Sarge or Wulf do that, but SOME in these parts definitely do)

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:04 PM

So...when there is overwhelming evidence that Ron Paul is the best candidate for President out there...what do the ultra-liberals do? Scream "HEs A RACIST!"

Same thing they always do.

The problem, and I don't think they see it, is that their last ditch smear tactic is no longer working.

SERGEANTX

Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
It seems to me that the people who complain the loudest about Obama being 'The One' don't have a problem with human deity worship - they just have a problem with the choice. They have their OWN deities they want worshipped !

Most of the libertarians and Ron Paul supporters I know are cautiously hopeful about Obama. They may feel his economic solutions are just as bad as Bush's, but his foreign policy is only 75% as bad and he's looking somewhat better on the "homeland insecurity" front as well. They're certainly not the ones spreading rumors about him being the anti-christ. Most of us like seeing someone who isn't a complete asshole running things, even if we don't agree with his political ideology.

As to the racism stuff and RP. It is ugly, and it's one of the reasons I support him 80-90% rather than 90-100%. The fact that the tone of the newsletter articles, their language and rhetoric, are antithetical to everything else I've read or heard from RP convinces me that he's telling the truth when he says he didn't approve of the articles. But, at the very least letting them get printed in his publication was sloppy and I don't think he adequately answered the racism charges publicly. If he'd become a serious challenge to the nomination, I'd have expected something more substantial in the way of distancing himself from any hint of racism.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:14 PM

"Notably, an awful lot of them worship at the feet of Rush Limbaugh. (Not saying Kirk or Sarge or Wulf do that, but SOME in these parts definitely do)"

I bend my knee to no man. Especially to a blowhard like Rush Limbaugh.

Again, Ron Paul has stated that the Presidents personal beliefs do not (should not, can not) have anything to do with his job as President. Period.

Heres what I don't get. If things were right, and Constitutional, everyone would be happy. Heres the scenario:

Town A: Does not allow abortion, drinking on Sundays, or any drugs to be consumed.

Next door:

Town B: Allows abortion, all drugs are legal, and the laws on carrying a gun are so stringent that no one legally does (but people are allowed to do so under the Second Amendment).

Town C: Allows abortion, most drugs are legal, carrying a weapon is encouraged, and the local authority must have miles of paperwork before they can even think of hasseling you.

You have the choice on where you want to live. If you don't like what the local authority is doing, you can move across the town lines to someplace you feel more comfortable.

Done. Thats how the Constitution was set up. The Federal authorities don't have the right to interfere or MEDDLE in peoples lives.

We can govern ourselves.

SERGEANTX

Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Heres what I don't get. If things were right, and Constitutional, everyone would be happy. Heres the scenario:

Town A: Does not allow abortion, drinking on Sundays, or any drugs to be consumed.

Next door:

Town B: Allows abortion, all drugs are legal, and the laws on carrying a gun are so stringent that no one legally does.

Town C: Allows abortion, most drugs are legal, carrying a weapon is encouraged, and the local authority must have miles of paperwork before they can even think of hasseling you.

You have the choice on where you want to live. If you don't like what the local authority is doing, you can move across the town lines to someplace you feel more comfortable.

Done. Thats how the Constitution was set up. The Federal authorities don't have the right to interfere or MEDDLE in peoples lives.

We can govern ourselves.

The Constitution is also an agreement amongst the member states to adhere to universal concepts of individual rights. That's what the Bill of Rights was all about. Local and state governments have a broader ranges of services they can provide and legislation they can impose, but they have to follow the nationally established norms of basic human rights.

Abortion laws are substantially different from zoning ordinances or trash pickup. To look at it another way, if you're of the opinion that abortion is murder, would you be ok with letting laws against murder be locally decided?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:26 PM

Ok. How about this then..

Every law currently on the books must be looked at from the perspective of whether it infringes on a persons freedoms.

Abortion is the freedom to have a medical procedure. It is also a moral issue. However, the local/state/federal governments do not have the right to choose morals for the people.

Same with drugs. Freedom of body. Should you become intoxicated and harm another (and ONLY IF YOU HARM SOMEONE ELSE) then the law can be involved. Drunk driving checkpoints are an example where the government tries to nanny the people (and make money), while also depriving them of their civil rights.

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:31 PM

Quote:
If a local district wants to make it legal to smoke weed

And if they want to impose the death penalty? Or institute an Official Chruch?

You're re-treading the same ground that the FF did when they dreamed up teh constitution. One of them... I believe it was Adams but I could be wrong... made a POINT of saying how local prejudices and interests could be extreme and dangerous, and how items taken to the nationl level would have parochial agendas averaged out.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:39 PM

"And if they want to impose the death penalty? Or institute an Official Chruch?"

Then the people of that local, confined, area would have the right to vote yea or nay to it. And live with the consequences. Until those same people decided to do something different.

What we are retreading here, I believe, is the actual cause of the Civil War.

KWICKO

Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
So...when there is overwhelming evidence that Ron Paul is the best candidate for President out there...what do the ultra-liberals do? Scream "HEs A RACIST!"

Same thing they always do.

The problem, and I don't think they see it, is that their last ditch smear tactic is no longer working.

Wulfie, is it "smearing" somebody if they're an actual racist? Would it be "smearing" if you were to call into question Louisiana Representative David Duke's history as a Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan? Is that a "smear"?

If someone honestly did these things, said these things, and wrote these things, then that becomes part of the public record. You don't seem to get that. The best thing for Dr. Paul to do, if he did indeed write these things, would be to stop trying to sweep them under the rug, and come out and explain them. Say, "I was an idiot. I was uninformed, and I'm more enlightened than that now."

I'm not saying he is or isn't a racist, but you screaming "that's what the liberals ALWAYS do, and it's nothing but a smear tactic!" is no better than someone else saying that Ron Paul is a racist.

ETA: I'm not familiar with the racism charges against him, so I can't say one way or another whether he's a racist. I *can* say that it played no part in whether I supported him or not in the last election.

And having read some more here, it appears that it wasn't articles that Dr. Paul himself wrote, but that he published in his newsletter, and which were written by someone else. If that's the case, I'd say he's guilty of, at worst, bad judgment. After all, it doesn't make me a communist if I read Das Kapital, and it doesn't make me a nazi if I read Mein Kampf.... Being associated with these things doesn't necessarily imply adherence to their tenets.

Mike

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen

RUE

Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:41 PM

Wulf
---------------------------------------
Paul's newsletters have carried different titles over the years--Ron Paul's Freedom Report, Ron Paul Political Report, The Ron Paul Survival Report--but they generally seem to have been published on a monthly basis since at least 1978. (Paul, an OB-GYN and former U.S. Air Force surgeon, was first elected to Congress in 1976.) During some periods, the newsletters were published by the Foundation for Rational Economics and Education, a nonprofit Paul founded in 1976; at other times, they were published by Ron Paul & Associates, a now-defunct entity in which Paul owned a minority stake, according to his campaign spokesman. The Freedom Report claimed to have over 100,000 readers in 1984. At one point, Ron Paul & Associates also put out a monthly publication called The Ron Paul Investment Letter.

The Freedom Report's online archives only go back to 1999, but I was curious to see older editions of Paul's newsletters, in part because of a controversy dating to 1996, when Charles "Lefty" Morris, a Democrat running against Paul for a House seat, released excerpts stating that "opinion polls consistently show only about 5% of blacks have sensible political opinions," that "if you have ever been robbed by a black teen-aged male, you know how unbelievably fleet-footed they can be," and that black representative Barbara Jordan is "the archetypical half-educated victimologist" whose "race and sex protect her from criticism." At the time, Paul's campaign said that Morris had quoted the newsletter out of context. Later, in 2001, Paul would claim that someone else had written the controversial passages. (Few of the newsletters contain actual bylines.) Caldwell, writing in the Times Magazine last year, said he found Paul's explanation believable, "since the style diverges widely from his own."

But, whoever actually wrote them, the newsletters I saw all had one thing in common: They were published under a banner containing Paul's name, and the articles (except for one special edition of a newsletter that contained the byline of another writer) seem designed to create the impression that they were written by him--and reflected his views. What they reveal are decades worth of obsession with conspiracies, sympathy for the right-wing militia movement, and deeply held bigotry against blacks, Jews, and gays. In short, they suggest that Ron Paul is not the plain-speaking antiwar activist his supporters believe they are backing--but rather a member in good standing of some of the oldest and ugliest traditions in American politics.
---------------------------------------

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ENJOY ! Wulf. His bigotry is right up your alley.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:57 PM

http://www.newsmax.com/kessler/Obama_Church_Racism/2008/01/07/62285.ht
ml

http://abcnews.go.com/blotter/Story?id=4443788&page=1

http://gawker.com/5156142/eric-holder-calls-us-nation-of-cowards

http://www.newsmax.com/putnam/barack_obama_wright/2008/03/28/83739.htm
l

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2007/02/is_obama_racist.php

* Sorry, I'm actually on my lunch break, so this is the most I could come up with on short notice...

KWICKO

Thursday, March 12, 2009 4:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"And if they want to impose the death penalty? Or institute an Official Chruch?"

Then the people of that local, confined, area would have the right to vote yea or nay to it. And live with the consequences. Until those same people decided to do something different.

What we are retreading here, I believe, is the actual cause of the Civil War.

I've got a couple of questions.

1) You're okay with ANYTHING that a local government decides to do, then? You say that having an "official church" is fine by you, right? So what if your local area decides that the "official" church is radical Islam? You going to join, or are you fine with being forced to sell your house and move out of the area?

2) Why are you okay with LOCAL government telling you what to do, but not FEDERAL government? Is there an inherent difference that you see? I mean, if it's not okay for one government to tell you how to live your life, why is it okay for another government to do so? And if you say that you can always move to another area, I'd counter by saying that you can always move to another country, too. I hear there's still some "wild west" available in large parts of Africa. Why not head there, where you can REALLY put your theories to the test? Just something to think about...

I'm not trying to be a dick about this; I'm trying to ask pointed questions, and to point out what I see as flaws in your logic. As to the whole leaving the country thing, I'm not suggesting that you "love it or leave it" - only that it's a possibility you seem to have not considered. I know it's a possibility, because I've been told many, many, MANY times here on this site that I should get the hell out of America if I hate it so much. So I do really, seriously know that it can be done.

Mike

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen

SERGEANTX

Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"And if they want to impose the death penalty? Or institute an Official Chruch?"

Then the people of that local, confined, area would have the right to vote yea or nay to it. And live with the consequences. Until those same people decided to do something different.

Wulf, I think you're overlooking some of the reasoning behind having a national government in the first place. It's more than just national defense. The national constitution sets limits for government in general - at least in terms of individual rights. I'm certainly not "OK" with a neighboring state legalizing slavery, for example. I don't think the Civil War was the best solution, but belonging to a nation means some agreement on basic human rights if nothing else.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:07 PM

Ok, Kwicko, fair enough. I'll answer.

"1) You're okay with ANYTHING that a local government decides to do, then? You say that having an "official church" is fine by you, right? So what if your local area decides that the "official" church is radical Islam? You going to join, or are you fine with being forced to sell your house and move out of the area?

2) Why are you okay with LOCAL government telling you what to do, but not FEDERAL government? Is there an inherent difference that you see? I mean, if it's not okay for one government to tell you how to live your life, why is it okay for another government to do so? And if you say that you can always move to another area, I'd counter by saying that you can always move to another country, too. I hear there's still some "wild west" available in large parts of Africa. Why not head there, where you can REALLY put your theories to the test? Just something to think about..."

No, Im not Ok with a local authority telling me what to do. However, I do know that I have more power over them, than I would over the Federal government. And more of a chance of chaning my current situation, by garnering the support of my neighbors, than I would taking on a huge conglomerate.

Look at it this way...if you are sad enough to be shackled with an HOA, you CAN change them, just by getting with your neighbors and throwing the bums out.

Also, establishing a "local Church authority" violates the Constitution, so that would not be a consideration.

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:15 PM

"ENJOY ! Wulf. His bigotry is right up your alley."

Nice one, Rue. I did not take it to a personal level, but you did. Just can't help yourself can you?

RUE

Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:17 PM

Wulf

If Obama had printed that stuff under his name I'd say you MIGHT have a point about Obama. (That stuff by the way had nothing bad to say about whites, gays, women or --- anybody --- as a function of their race, orientation or sex.) But he didn't, and you don't.

Ron Paul is bigoted in so MANY ways.

But I guess that makes him OK with you.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

KWICKO

Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:43 PM

Wulfie, I couldn't get past the first sentence of the first article in your first link.

Quote:

Imagine if Mitt Romney’s church proclaimed on its website that it is “unashamedly white.”

Is this something that the Mormon Church would even have to proclaim? A church that didn't even accept black members until, what? 1979? A church that in many places STILL preaches that the sin of miscegenation (the mixing of racial groups, such as you and your Dominican wife) should be punished by death, on the spot.

Yeah, why haven't they proclaimed themselves unashamedly white? ;)

Mike

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen

KWICKO

Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:49 PM

Quote:

Also, establishing a "local Church authority" violates the Constitution, so that would not be a consideration.

I was wondering if you were going to catch that, since you said earlier you'd be okay with it, as long as it was done on a local level...
chose it as their local religion?

Mike

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:49 PM

Umm, let me guess...you've never known any Mormons, right?

Little history on Wulf here, I worked FOR a Mormon company (for a little over 3 years) a while back. Met a bunch of nice folks, 2 of which have been great friends to me and my Dominican wife.

Yeah, I will admit, their Church is....strange. Their beliefs are...strange. BUT, at least they had the balls to say that the teachings they held to in the past were wrong.

And, on that front, they changed them.

Also, there are 2 main denominations among the Mormons. The actual Church...

and the other ones who still believe in plural-marriage, and the mark of Cain.

Dammit, read a book man!

Edit: Btw, 2 of the people I worked with, who were Mormon, were African...

lol...

KWICKO

Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
"ENJOY ! Wulf. His bigotry is right up your alley."

Nice one, Rue. I did not take it to a personal level, but you did. Just can't help yourself can you?

Ummm... Wulfie? Somethin's buggin' me here about this post. You claim you DIDN'T take it to a personal level. Yet in your response to Rue about her questions regarding Ron Paul's alleged racism, this was your response:

Quote:

So...when there is overwhelming evidence that Ron Paul is the best candidate for President out there...what do the ultra-liberals do? Scream "HEs A RACIST!"

Same thing they always do.

The problem, and I don't think they see it, is that their last ditch smear tactic is no longer working.

So in response to legitimate questions about actual issues, YOUR response was to blast Rue with the "ultra-liberals", "screaming", "last ditch", and "smear tactics" take.

I think just about anybody could construe that as taking it to a personal level against Rue. Or would her reply to you after that be LESS personal if she'd said, "His bigotry should be right up the alley of all ultra-conservives screaming out their racism and using smear tactics against any opposition"? After all, if it doesn't accuse YOU PERSONALLY of being bigoted, it's not personal, right? It's just saying that anyone who supports Ron Paul is bigoted, which is, like, totally different, right?

So when you decide to blast someone by using a gross generalization, don't try to bullshit them later by saying that you didn't go personal on them. That's disingenuous, and if you're going to insult someone, I'd prefer you just come out and do it.

Mike

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:06 PM

Quote:
So when you decide to blast someone by using a gross generalization, don't try to bullshit them later by saying that you didn't go personal on them

yes, thank you.

Wulfie, go stand in a corner and repeat ten times I will not be a hypocrite

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:08 PM

Noooo.... if I was going to hit Rue on a personal level, I would just do it. Anyone here knows that is the truth..

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:09 PM

Quote:
Also, establishing a "local Church authority" violates the Constitution, so that would not be a consideration.

No, it doesn't. It prohbits the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT from establishing a religion. It is a matter of coincidence that most STATE constitutions have the same or similar provision.. which, BTW, only prohibits that STATE from establishing a religion.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:13 PM

Hooookay... then, here's a personal comment: Wulf, you're a bigoted proto-fascist hypocrite who deserves no more of anyone else's time here.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

KWICKO

Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Umm, let me guess...you've never known any Mormons, right?

Ummmm... wrong. My best friend's youngest sister converted to Mormonism, and of course then set about trying to convert everybody she ever knew or encountered, including me. It didn't take.

Quote:

Little history on Wulf here, I worked FOR a Mormon company (for a little over 3 years) a while back. Met a bunch of nice folks, 2 of which have been great friends to me and my Dominican wife.

Yeah, I will admit, their Church is....strange. Their beliefs are...strange. BUT, at least they had the balls to say that the teachings they held to in the past were wrong.

And, on that front, they changed them.

Also, there are 2 main denominations among the Mormons. The actual Church...

Would that be the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, or the Reorganized Chuch of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? Both claim to be "the actual Church..." - as do all of the several fundamentalist sects.

Quote:

Dammit, read a book man!

How 'bout The Doctrine and Covenants, one of the two main books that Mormon is founded on?

Quote:

Edit: Btw, 2 of the people I worked with, who were Mormon, were African...

Get out! Next you're going to tell me they didn't know how to give gifts!

Mike

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:23 PM

Ha....ha.....*sigh

"How 'bout The Doctrine and Covenants, one of the two main books that Mormon is founded on?"

Ok...or the Pearl of Great Price...

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, March 12, 2009 7:33 PM

............ and silence.

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 12, 2009 7:46 PM

Nobody is interested in one-upmanship on apparently irrelevant esoterica. So, if you care to enlighten us all as to WHY your reading list is so important...

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, March 12, 2009 7:50 PM

"Nobody is interested in one-upmanship on apparently irrelevant esoterica. So, if you care to enlighten us all as to WHY your reading list is so important... "

Yet....its ok for you and Rue to make this a personal attack. Hey no problem.

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:33 PM

I think y'all are being too hard on Wulf, and it'd be awfully nice if when you DO try to educate the guy, that you leave the snark out of it cause it drives things personal and poisons the well.

That said...

I do second their reccommendation to read through the Federalist/Anti-Federalist papers, as many of these issues are discussed at length, in detail, and hashed out quite reasonably and effectively.

It's a right bitch of a read, and difficult besides cause the language and terms are archaic, but it's well WORTH the trouble despite being a massive amount of stuff to plow through.

But you will learn an amazing amount of info about how our political system is SUPPOSED to work (and don't) as well the historical background and details to support every argument within, and WHY those arguements were raised.

And if that ain't enough to convince you, ponder for a moment that Ron Paul can probably quote it to you entire, cause for DAMN sure the man has not only read em, but picked at them enough to truly understand them in full detail.

Regardless of how backhandedly it was delivered, that was good advice.

-F

KWICKO

Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
............ and silence.

About? Oh, what? My reading list?

Yeah, I confess I didn't finish D&C. It bored me. I got more from Jon Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith than I ever did from any of the "official" histories of Mormonism in America. And I never tried Pearl. I moved on to other things. As a youngster, I was lost, and casting about for some kind of belief system. Tried a lot of 'em, and didn't ever find one that fit.

Mike

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:58 PM

Quote:
Nobody is interested in one-upmanship on apparently irrelevant esoterica. So, if you care to enlighten us all as to WHY your reading list is so important... " -Signy

Yet....its ok for you and Rue to make this a personal attack. Hey no problem- Wulf

Wulf, you seem to think that knowing about Mormonism was important to the topic (locally-imposed religions). I don't see how that is relevant, but maybe I missed a turn somewhere so I gave you an opportunity to explain to us WHY. So you choose to see it as a personal attack??? Really, all I was asking is: What's your point?

Explain, or not.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

KWICKO

Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:58 PM

BTW, sorry for cutting out earlier - I was on my lunch break, then had a 53' truck come in. In the rain. Oh, joy... So I've been trying to get 14 pallets of product inside and out of the rain, and trying to figure out how I'm going to wedge it into a space about 10' x 25'. In other words, a fun afternoon! It's all in now, and if I turn sideways, I can even wiggle through to get from the bay door to my desk!

Mike

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen

WULFENSTAR

Friday, March 13, 2009 12:20 AM

No, Sig, I got pulled off topic.

SIGNYM

Friday, March 13, 2009 12:42 AM

Okay. Glad that got cleared up. Thanks!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

KWICKO

Friday, March 13, 2009 1:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
No, Sig, I got pulled off topic.

Yup, me too.

So what were we talking about?

Mike

SERGEANTX

Friday, March 13, 2009 2:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So what were we talking about?

The undeniable righteousness of my opinions.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, March 13, 2009 12:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"What racism? I believe you may be thinking of some supposed stuff he wrote in class years ago ..."

Quote:
Rue: Ron Paul and racism:

"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A series of newsletters in the name of GOP presidential hopeful Ron Paul contain several racist remarks -- including one that says order was restored to Los Angeles after the 1992 riots when blacks went "to pick up their welfare checks."

CNN recently obtained the newsletters -- written in the 1990s and one from the late 1980s -- after a report was published about their existence in The New Republic."

Seems like the truth to me. It was black people who were rioting and when the government gave them money they went back home. At least the Government didn't go all "Kent State" with guns blazing and wipe them all off the streets of LA. I'm absolutely sure that they could have at that point, but we hadn't degraded that much as a noble country to start doing that to our own citizenry..... yet.

How is this racism? Funny how truth can so easily be garbled enough to look like racism.

Sorry Ron Paul doesn't coddle your delicate sensibilities and sugar coat the truth like Obama or McCain Rue.

Quote:
And so on.

Don't stop there.

Quote:
I went to check it out when this hit the news early in the campaign, and followed the trail all the way to the original pdfs, which I read. It was pretty bad. It wasn't one sentence or one phrase - it was an entire racist rant. Multiple times. (BTW it was in part the reason why RP was sunk nationally.)

It took me about as long to find it as to type it. If you had an OUNCE of curiosity you would have found it too.

I've read them Rue. You know that. I just wanted you to point them out, and that was the best quote you could come up with. Show me the dirty stuff.

Quote:
It seems to me that the people who complain the loudest about Obama being 'The One' don't have a problem with human deity worship - they just have a problem with the choice. They have their OWN deities they want worshipped !

I've already told you rue that although I think the man is special, he's not "unique". He surely wouldn't be spending your grandchildren's labor right now like the current Idiot in Cheif, and he would be taking real steps to restore our nation. Not printing money and making the idiots begging for jobs subservient to the new world order.

There will be others like him, and they will get much more support. Things haven't gotten bad enough for you to come to the middle yet. I left the Rethugs years ago. Many dems and reps left their "sides" to come to common sense. Next time it will be more.

They both want to see us subservient.

***************************************************************

Quote:
So get with the program !

Your sig says it all Rue. Your way, or the highway.....

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

SIGNYM

Friday, March 13, 2009 1:25 PM

Quote:
Seems like the truth to me.

THAT is the essence of racism. To castigate an entire group pf people by their race, based on an unsupported belief. (Blacks are shiftless and lazy. Too lazy to even riot properly against the gubmint. 'cause they're only interested in free money.) Jack, have you ever talked to blacks about US foreign policy? Or what it means to live in a police state? A lot of blacks "get it". They do. They would be the Libertarian's natural allies except is seems the Libertarians are a white middle-class group throwing a hissy-fit.

But let me 'splain why it's prolly not true: The peeps rioting were primarily young males. The peeps getting the welfare check were primarily female. It's not like some 40-year-old taking care of her grandchildren stopped in the middle of throwing a molotov, checked her watch and thought "OH DARN! I GOTTA STOP THIS AND GET DOWN TO THE OFFICE TO PICK UP MY CHECK!"

SO, there's ANOTHER reason why Ron Paul won't be President. (

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

SERGEANTX

Friday, March 13, 2009 1:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
.... seems the Libertarians are a white middle-class group throwing a hissy-fit.

Were you going for irony here?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

WULFENSTAR

Friday, March 13, 2009 2:07 PM

What Rue, and Sig don't understand is that if we actually followed the Constitution...the country would be a better place for EVERYBODY. Rich, poor, black, white, whatever.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Friday, March 13, 2009 2:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Seems like the truth to me.
THAT is the essence of racism. To castigate an entire group pf people by their race, based on an unsupported belief. (Blacks are shiftless and lazy. Too lazy to even riot properly against the gubmint. 'cause they're only interested in free money.) Jack, have you ever talked to blacks about US foreign policy? Or what it means to live in a police state? A lot of blacks "get it". They do. They would be the Libertarian's natural allies except is seems the Libertarians are a white middle-class group throwing a hissy-fit.

But let me 'splain why it's prolly not true: The peeps rioting were primarily young males. The peeps getting the welfare check were primarily female. It's not the some 40-year-old taking care of her grandchildren stopped in the middle of throwing a molotov, checked her wat and thought "OH DARN! I GOTTA STOP THIS AND GET DOWN TO THE OFFICE TO PICK UP MY CHECK!"

SO, there's ANOTHER reason why Ron Paul won't be President. (

See......

That's not at all what I was saying. I hate the way stuff gets conveyed over the net.

I never said anything about their intentions or what I thought of their rioting. I only commented on the truth of the statement.

I envy them. I envied the few Middle Eastern kids that went to our junior high that were real tight. All I knew growing up was an extreme distrust in a lot of other white people until they proved themselves to me in the teenage world of popularity. It was just like the movies like Breakfast Club, except now we had about 20 "Arabs" as we called them, who if anyone started something with one of them they eventually had to reckon with all of them.

A lot of people thought negatively about that, but I always envied it. Except for the few friends that I believe would stand up for me like I would for them, no white guys I knew growing up were going to do that for each other. They'd run and hide. I've been a victim of that myself on several occasions. I was a little shit of 74 pounds in Jr High and I didn't let anyone talk down to me and often got my ass kicked by more than one person for it.

Only 3 guys I know that would have helped me out or have helped me out in the past. Two of them I will have stood up in their weddings by fall, and the other I will when he gets married.

They, the Arabs, like the crew of Firefly, had a group unity that I never knew on such a large scale ever in my life. They were united, even though they probably all fought amongst each other. One of them rubbed me the wrong way once, and I paid for it for two years until I went to highschool and became a "Jock" on the wrestling team.

I never got any shit from anyone after Freshman year Wreastling, but I never looked up to those guys like I did the Arabs though. Hell... half of them I always despised as human beings. We were a team at the meets, but off-mat I couldn't care less about them.

Bottom line is... they, a group of blacks in LA, rioted (not all of them, or even a majority of them duh!). I'm sure some white people got involved in the looting too since it was already going on......

Big Daddy Government swooped in to the rescue with Baby Bottles Brimming with Benjamins and nursed everyone back to sleep.

You know me Signy by now. I envy the dark neighborhoods that the cops are scared of entering. Like little microcosims in an otherwise tamed world.

People at my work are really trying to talk me out of buying a $7,000 duplex in a "bad" neighborhood. I keep asking them if it's just "white paranoia" that's making them say that, or if they really belive that just because I'm a white man I'll get killed living there. A majority of them, and I can't blame them, believe that if I'm not killed there my life will be hell. I just don't really believe that.

I'm ashamed to admit that I wouldn't be able to live with my brother anymore though because he is going to be getting married and I would be afraid for his fiencee. I'm fully willing

SIGNYM

Friday, March 13, 2009 5:51 PM

I've lived in tough black neighborhoods and everything bad they say about them is true. I got tired of the police helicopters at night, the armed stand-offs, the break-ins (including my own home), the fact that I couldn't walk down to the corner store in the evening w/o getting harrassed, being assaulted, the purses which had been snatched being ditched in my garden... I got tired of living with a shotgun under me bed, of having my SO prowl the house to make sure that is was clear (he was trying to reassure me. Having been a crime victim three times in one year left me a bit rattled!) And heck, that all happened in ONE YEAR!

Blacks don't have the kind of unity you think they have. The most frequent victim of black crime are blacks. There are the socially aware, and then there are the thugs... trust me, you don't want to tangle with THEM.

It's different if you move into a middle-class black neighborhood. They exist, and they're nice. But don't get fooled by how nice the houses "look"... some real pretty-looking neighborhoods around here are drug hellholes.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

KWICKO

Friday, March 13, 2009 6:14 PM

Quote:

You know me Signy by now. I envy the dark neighborhoods that the cops are scared of entering. Like little microcosims in an otherwise tamed world.

People at my work are really trying to talk me out of buying a $7,000 duplex in a "bad" neighborhood. I keep asking them if it's just "white paranoia" that's making them say that, or if they really belive that just because I'm a white man I'll get killed living there. A majority of them, and I can't blame them, believe that if I'm not killed there my life will be hell. I just don't really believe that.

Hey... don't hate me for what I say. I see the only way to "integrate" neighborhoods is to mix the color in with the white. I have just never seen or known anybody who has done it the other way.

I might get a great duplex for $7,000 out there. Could they really hate me that much because of my skin color when I probably hate cops more than they do?

Been there, done that. Until 2 months ago, I lived in a neighborhood where I wouldn't walk at night without a gun and/or a knife on me. Police helicopters, roadblocks, drive-by shootings, SWAT kicking in doors - literally right across the street, twice - the whole damn deal. And I'm here to tell you that is HAS been done the other way, by me at least. I was the only whitey I ever saw in the area. I got pulled over a few times for being in the area at night - "What are you doing over in this area? Are you buying drugs?" "No, sir - I'm going home. I live just over there, in that blue house."

There was a little stretch where we were catching a murder a week on my block. One guy got capped in the head 'cause some idiot wanted his watch: a shitty $20 Timex. You're gonna cap a brother, at least make it a Seiko or somethin'! Just sayin'.

Funny thing is, I had my share of trouble, but nobody ever once gave me any shit for being white. I was known as the Honda Guy, and if anyone in the neighborhood had a Honda, I was the guy they asked for help or advice when it wouldn't run. Hell, I even got my own street name in the 'hood: Bird, or Bird-man. It started off as Larry Bird, because I'm white and tall, then just became Bird-man, then simply Bird. I took it as a compliment, a sign of acceptance and respect.

Mike

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen

SIGNYM

Friday, March 13, 2009 6:25 PM

Quote:
"What are you doing over in this area? Are you buying drugs?"

We knew this black lady who had a flat tire in a real, real scary part of town one night... well, her drug-addled hubby was nowhere to be found, so she called my SO and gave him real garbled directions about where to find her. When he drove arund the block twice the 'hood throught he was looking for drugs. When he drove arund four times they thought he might be a cop. Fortunately, he found her and fixed her tire b4 anything happened.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

RUE

Saturday, March 14, 2009 1:16 AM

"So get with the program !"

DOOOOOoood - that was a JOKE !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

RUE

Saturday, March 14, 2009 1:32 AM

Anyway -

I provided links to the pdfs so people could read the bigoted screed under Ron Paul's name. I typed one short portion to give people an idea of what was in there. It was the first thing I found, it wasn't the worst thing I found.

The pdfs are not a e-version - they are badly scanned hardcopy that I would have to type in by hand. I'm not going to bother.

Read them or not. But they were a big reason why Ron Paul's rising star suddenly fell. They came at a critical time just as his name was starting to be mentioned, and he never fully explained why people should not think of him as a blatant bigot with many, many target groups.

But go ahead - keep thinking of him as a saint - and keep on wondering why he's not popular. Your frustration over that unanswerable question is not my concern.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, March 14, 2009 12:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I've lived in tough black neighborhoods and everything bad they say about them is true. I got tired of the police helicopters at night, the armed stand-offs, the break-ins (including my own home), the fact that I couldn't walk down to the corner store in the evening w/o getting harrassed, being assaulted, the purses which had been snatched being ditched in my garden... I got tired of living with a shotgun under me bed, of having my SO prowl the house to make sure that is was clear (he was trying to reassure me. Having been a crime victim three times in one year left me a bit rattled!) And heck, that all happened in ONE YEAR!

Sounds like paradise to me!

Nah... not really. That's a shame that it's really like that. It's crazy how we all live so closely together near big cities and just a few miles away people are killing each other.

It's even sadder that this stereotype is real. I know there are a lot of middle class blacks who make something of themselves and have respect for themselves and their families. I still remember this guy Gary who was a Suit at a retail company I worked at a few years when I was in highschool. I was trying to use my mojo on the cutest girl that worked there in the break room one night, but she wasn't having it. It turns out she had never been on a "date" before and liked it when guys just partied with her and she put out if she liked them. This little rico suave looking mf got into her panties right quick by treating her like he didn't care if she existed. (I've known several girls I've taken out on dates that were over 20 and said it's the first time they've ever been on a real date..... and that's just sad).

Anyways....... Gary walked in the break room towards the end of that conversation. I don't know what he heard or even remember any of what we said to each other 12 years ago, but he saw that I looked down when she left and he told me "Don't worry about that now. You just keep doing what you're doing. A lot of girls like the bad boy type at your age, but when you get older the women are looking for somebody smart and responsible like you".

He probably doesn't even remember me now, but I won't forget him. First black man I respected, and one of the few people who worked there that I ever did. Not a lot of adults, including my parents, talked to me like an adult back then. He was only there a few weeks and then he was off to "fix" another store in the chain.

I did walk 12 miles home one night because some friends pissed me off about something when we were at a restaurant after drinking all night. There were busses on the way, but in my state and state of mind I wasn't going to get on a bus and I was going to walk home if it took me the rest of the night (which it did). It was the middle of November and 14 degrees, so not a whole lot of people were out. Though I didn't see anybody white out there, I did pass some black and Mexican people. I'd say hi as I passed and they'd greet me right back. I admit that I was on guard and alert of my surroundings when I passed anyone (being that it was 3:00AM, I was alone, and I was drunk and high enough to be walking 12 miles in November weather), but nothing bad happened.

I walked past a Labor Ready a few hours later with about 30 Mexican guys and girls waiting outside. It kind of pissed me off when they all pretended not to know English when I asked them for a lighter and even stooped to playing charades with them, making the motions with a cigarette in my mouth, after no one would offer one up (I only had matches in my pocket somehow, and they had run out a half hour earlier).

But then I walked past another Labor Ready a while down and talked to the lone black guy who was about 40 years old named Anthony standing in front of the building, waiting to find out what his assignment of the day was. I was about 10 miles into my trek then, but I was cold and tired and my foot was killing me. I didn't mind stopping to chat at all to relieve some of the ne

KWICKO

Saturday, March 14, 2009 6:04 PM

Quote:

If anyone I passed was somebody who liked stealing or starting shit with people for the fun of it, nobody showed it. Either it's not as bad as I see in movies, the people I walked past that night were good people, or they were just more afraid of a white guy who would walk those streets alone at 3AM.

It's not anywhere near as bad as you see in movies and on TV. If it were, the L.A. riots wouldn't have even made the news, because crap like that would be "normal". It makes the news because, even in the worst areas in the nation, there's bad behavior that really stands out.

I was out in L.A. on business a few years ago. I was staying in Redondo Beach, but business took me right through Compton. One night a group of us went out after our meetings, so I didn't get back to the hotel 'til after 2am. So here's me, an out-of-towner from Texas, sitting RIGHT in the middle of Compton at 2:30 in the AM, basically shitting bricks 'cause I just know I'm going to end up a statistic. And to top it off, I got lost. I had to stop and ask directions from a group of black kids on the corner, which I was pretty sure from what I'd seen on TV was going to be the last thing I did. But I stopped, left the car in gear, ready to bolt, and asked how I got to so-and-so street in Redondo.

You know what happened next? One kid steps forward, asks where I'm trying to get to, and gives me really good directions.

That's it. I wasn't jacked, robbed, or killed, just sent on my way with directions.

And in more than a week in the area, passing through Compton, Watts, and Inglewood on a daily basis, I never did see any crimes being committed or get in any beef with anyone.

Mike

I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.

- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen

SIGNYM

Sunday, March 15, 2009 7:21 AM

Quote:
If anyone I passed was somebody who liked stealing or starting shit with people for the fun of it, nobody showed it. Either it's not as bad as I see in movies, the people I walked past that night were good people, or they were just more afraid of a white guy who would walk those streets alone at 3AM.

Well, it's not as bad, and sometimes its worse. In that bad neighborhood, our immediate neighbors were great folks. Our downstairs neighbor, Mrs McClusky was an 83-year-old pistol, drove around in her powder blue VW like she was some kinda racecar driver. The family next door, the Givens (I wonder about the origin THAT name; I sure can construct a plausible story going back to the days of slavery) were great; the dad was a contractor and the sons were in business with him. The lady across the street distributed Amway products. But there was a big apartment building nearby, there was always fighting and drugs there. And our little street was apparently a magnet for robbers; at either end of our short street was a lot of drug dealing cause there were major streets there.

Hubby works at USC, which is right between the hispanic gangs to the north and the black gangs to the south. 99% of the time, its OK. But there's a night-time armed robbery on or just off campus at least once a week.

Has nothing to do with being white, and everything to do with the neighborhood being poor and disenfranchised in so many ways.

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Sunday, March 15, 2009 12:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Has nothing to do with being white, and everything to do with the neighborhood being poor and disenfranchised in so many ways.

That may be possible, but there is usually a lot of truth sadly behind stereotypes. Short of the neo-nazi block in Statesville, I don't think there are too many white neighborhoods I'd be afraid of walking through at 3:00 AM... Especially considering that I wasn't afraid when I walked through the neighborhoods that everyone else called me an idiot for walking through alone.

I certainly will admit that there are neighborhoods still today that black people wouldn't walk through at 3:00 AM either.

I get mixed opinions from posts here though. I'm told that I basically should not even consider moving into one of these neighborhoods, but that they're really not all that bad.

Bottom line is, I don't like cops, I mind my own business and I don't flash things I have like candy on a string to entice break-ins. My car is two years older than me and cost $1,800. If anything were to happen to me, I can't see it happening for any reason other than I'm different.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, March 15, 2009 4:47 PM

I could write a freakin six paragraph explaination of why I could go there and never have a problem, and some folk would get mugged before getting fifty yards, but you know - someone's already done a right damn good job of it.

High Risk Behavior and Knowing Where You Are
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/HighriskbehaviorRome.htm
Best Way to Get Attacked
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/get_attacked.htm

There's a complex set of psychological variables involved in dealing with "barbarians" and simply understanding what the local ground rules are, as well as being able to speak on equal terms with them will often net you enough "props" to be left alone, and might cut you a little slack for sheer novelty since you gave enough respect to understand at least that much.

While I wouldn't reccommend it to someone who doesn't understand the concepts here, my primary protection isn't based on a defensive model, which is the safest, surest route to go for most people.

Muchlike how I play to pyschological blindspots, I also play to the fears of the lower element by a combination of elements that reads to their signals processing as a fellow predator, and a damned nasty one as well, causing their risk assessment to go straight into "get the hell out of dodge" mode - and you have to KNOW how to do this, cause if you screw it up in any way, well, bad things happen, and that means you have to be willing to back it up if you must.

It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't been immersed in that little world, but it's a combination of all the little signals which will trip all the fear switches in their little monkeybrain and send them scurrying for cover, or at least easier prey - and yes, occasionally you get one of em just so damn stupid or chemically enhanced they might do something stupid, but often enough their own brethren will intervene to protect THEM from you, resulting in a clean walk-away for you without it ever coming to violence.

Frankly, most of the trouble I've ever had when residing in some of the awful places I have, didn't come from the criminal element anyways, but rather either dipshit "romans" who didn't know any better, or the more professional criminal element known as the Police, which are from THAT perspective, no more than just another gang or mafia, only differing in that they have official sanction and more resources.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

KWICKO

Sunday, March 15, 2009 6:07 PM

Quote:

I get mixed opinions from posts here though. I'm told that I basically should not even consider moving into one of these neighborhoods, but that they're really not all that bad.

Bottom line is, I don't like cops, I mind my own business and I don't flash things I have like candy on a string to entice break-ins. My car is two years older than me and cost $1,800. If anything were to happen to me, I can't see it happening for any reason other than I'm different.

I say if you can get that place for $7k, go for it. Kinda hard to go too wrong on that one, it seems like. Well, unless you have to put $200k into "fixing it up"! :)

As for being break-in bait, I think a lot of it is just being seen as "not belonging" or not being one of the regulars in the area - that makes you "fair game" because the thieves aren't stealing from a friend, but from a complete stranger, so in their eyes, it doesn't really count.

It's always confused me why people in the poorest areas seem to find such joy in stealing from each other. Always made more sense to me that, if you wanted to steal and get something worth having, you'd hop a bus across town to the rich areas and steal your stuff there. I mean, stealing from people you already know don't have shit just doesn't make much financial sense - and if they had anything worth much, they'd probably live in a nicer area to begin with.

But that's just me...

Mike

The "On Fire" Economy -
The Dow closed at 10,587.60 on January 20, 2001, the day GW Bush took office. Eight years later, it closed below 8000 on the day he left office - a net loss of 25%. That's what conservatives call an economic "success".

WULFENSTAR

Sunday, March 15, 2009 11:19 PM

Six,

I dont know why you'd want to go to a place like that. Most folks want to get OUT of areas like it.

The ones who DON'T want to leave are the retards. They have no chance of surviving outside of their little bit of hell and they know it.

I mean it, they are messed up in the head. The one who actually want to stay have zero intelligence, and are more animal than human.

So, Im curious as to why you'd actually want to be in a place like that? For the adventure of it? Being able to say you did it? The supposed lawlessness?

It reminds me some people I knew a few years back. Hippy libs, who were buying a place in a bad neighborhood to help "gentrify the neighborhood". Every week they had new and exciting stories of their "experiment".

Their rich, hippy-lib friends would comment on how great they were for doing it, and how important it was, and how brave ect ect.. basically having an orgasm at the idea..

Well, they made the mistake of trying to brag about their experience to me...Being the nice guy that I am, I made a simple statement.

"Yeah, you are living there, but you can leave any time you want. Just pack up and go. Its like being in prison, but being able to walk out whenever you want. You are the worst kind of fakes, because you are making a mockery of the people who CAN'T leave."

I stopped hearing from them after that. But I did hear, they got into so trouble and did end up just leaving. They live in California now. The rich area of course. Go figure.

With that said, I don't think thats your reason. So, allow me to make a few suggestions..

If you really intend to do it:

1. Be armed. At all times, if you can legally. If not, make damn sure you are armed at home.

I say at all times LEGALLY, because you WILL be harassed by cops. Quite simply, you don't belong. You will stick out like a sore thumb, and they will think you are either there to buy drugs or a prostitute.

2. Know that at some point you will be challenged. You will be tested. Know what that means, and know how to keep yourself from looking like prey. F that up, and it will get a whole lot more serious, VERY fast.

3. Don't have anything that you don't mind losing, and cannot leave or take with you in 5 minutes flat, if you need to.

4. Know that for the entire time you live there, any repairs you need will either cost you triple, or will never get done.

5. Everyone, and I mean everyone, will assume that you are weak, and rich. Like what they show in the movies and on T.V.

Also, that you are stupid. And can't see a scam right in front of your face. You MUST decide whether it more to your advantage to let them think that, or to change their minds. Either way, you have some sort of fight ahead of you.

Above all, whatever you decide, just be safe.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 17, 2009 6:56 AM

Quote:
If anything were to happen to me, I can't see it happening for any reason other than I'm different.

That kind of reasoning will get you in trouble.

Our local newspaper (the LA Times) tried an experiment once. Instead of running stories on just the most horrific murders... the ones that would give their white middle-class readers a frisson of fear... they decide to run a brief story on EVERY SINGLE murder for a week. That was, as I recall, about 50 murders.

I read every single one. And the funny thing is, in about 40-45 of them, despite the fact that the murders took place on the street or at a party "nobody saw anything". Yep. They were all deaf, blind, and dumb.

Because the murders were all gang-related. Potential witnesses were either part of the perp's gang (celebrating) or the victim's (planning revenge) or neither (keeping their heads down). Even when little kids get killed by accident... and accidents DO happen, kids and other people get killed by mistake... there is a brief flurry of neighborhood outrage. And then nothing happens because "nobody saw anything".

One good thing about you being white: If you're in a black neighborhood, you wont' get shot because someone mistook you for a rival. Unless you look Hispanic and you live in a border area, in which case you really just might wind up being a target.

So good luck on the idea. But don't go into this with romantic notions about lawlessness. even IF you figured out the who and why, the ebb and flow... life is chaotic, and shit happens.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 17, 2009 2:31 PM

One bump

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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

WULFENSTAR

Tuesday, March 17, 2009 7:34 PM

2 bump.

KWICKO

Tuesday, March 17, 2009 9:23 PM

Red Bump.

WULFENSTAR

Wednesday, March 18, 2009 2:13 AM

Bump x 4

CUDA77

Wednesday, March 18, 2009 12:27 PM

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:16 PM

Im gone a few days and this passes into antiquity?

I

DON'T

THINK

SO.

SIGNYM

Thursday, March 26, 2009 6:35 PM

Blue bump.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

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