Why not now fight for a animated firefly show?

POSTED BY: Ads
UPDATED: Thursday, August 29, 2024 00:25
VIEWED: 33090
PAGE 10 of 12

@ Sigmanunki: I don't think the legal issues are as unsurmountable as you make them out to be. They're only untakeable obstacles when you try and go against FOX or Universal -- which no sane person would even try and do.

@ADS: I still have some reservations about an animated Firefly. Sigmanunki did have a good point, namely that facial expression and such would need to be of high quality (comparable to Final Fantasy, The Spirits Within I mentioned earlier). Having a reservation or two, however, does not equate having you put through the wringer, as if you were the very FOX exec that made Firefly go away. And for that I apologize, even if I weren't the one doing it. I appreciate your efforts; if for nothing else, because it's good to know there's still folks out there who give a good half gorram about the continuation of the 'Verse! Apparently you've been pushed to the losing side of this argument; but I'm still not convinced it's the wrong one. Please, continue the good work.


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"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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*CellarDoor cowers behind Bytemite and Asarian as she beholds the fury of Sigmanunki's pragmatic cynicism*

Heh, loaded comment to begin with. Ok, since I'm new to the neighborhood, I honestly have no clue what other fandom's think of Browncoats, though it is quickly becoming apparent to me that we're not exactly highly regarded (lovely...). And. I am a member of www.savefirefly.org and I did send postcards in their recent *second* campaign.

I haven't seen the onslaught of the fanboys that Sigmanunki's profile mentions; heck, I probably am part of that onslaught. In that profile, I can read the yearning for days that can't be recovered, when Firefly was a closely guarded secret.

I'm not a huge fan of the idea of an animated Firefly either (I agree about the nuances and subtleties being almost impossible to render through animation), but the idea and the magnitude interest me. Plus, if it did take off and go somewhere, I'd like to know that the fans had a little input! The copyright implications do unsettle me, quite a bit. Plagiarism is no joke.

Settling for small, fan-made projects can be a temporary fix, but that's not what I yearn for: more canon material. Big projects DO help me dream big. I'm grateful for the link to the EV Nova mod, and I might actually check that out, since I used to play EV Nova anyway... It's not official material though. Are we at the end of official material? I'm not ready to say we are, but I don't know that the timing is right just yet.

Heh, none of that was in order. I'm just... glad to see discussions and debates continue. I'm sorry to read the community has all but gone inactive. Thanks to the debaters for "food for thought" and thanks to Zeek, Bytemite and Asarian for helping a poor, confused newbie find her footing while listening to the commotion.

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>_>

I've been here about two months, to be honest, and I only found Firefly early last October.

See, I'm the new private in the trenches, the annoying one who's gonna get folks killed if I don't wise up.

I really didn't mean to come across as confrontational as it appears I have. And I don't have a problem with Sigmanunki, in fact I agree with a lot of the posts I've seen in the RWD forum.

Here, I don't, and that's fine. Sigmanunki is being rational here, been around longer than me, and has every reason for every point made in this argument.

If Sigmanunki just doesn't want to see projects fail, and that's the point we ALL agree on, I just don't want to see them fail before they're even born. And I don't think it's a waste for anyone or for resources to support higher profile projects. Could be that's naive. But that's what I want to believe.

That's all.

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Well, Bytemite... I guess I'm the dangerous private right there with ya. Sorry if I mischaracterized you in any way. I'll try to step back and listen longer before putting in my oar.

Sigma IS being rational, but I sense a battle-weariness there too, all too fitting for a Browncoat in many ways. I guess an army (to continue the metaphor) needs all ranks to properly function. Kinda saddens me to think about all the dashed dreams these forums have seen. *sighs to ponder and thinks better of too much introspection late at night* Hmm... *grabs a pint of mudder's milk*

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When I spoke to GB about this he said it is basically a matter of opinion and he is very right.Some people lean one way others lean another. GB is confident he could pull it off and others are certain he can't. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Sigmanunki does make good points but we could go on arguing our different points of view forever. An assumption he sees as baseless I see as reasonable. Where he sees why animation wont be good I see why it will be. Where he sees why this isn't viable I see why it is. He has views on Buffy's story and I have different ones and other fans have even different views.

For the record I wasn't entirely happy with the last season of Buffy either but on the whole I was happy that the series ended with a conclusion. Angels I wasn't happy with but compared to Firefly,Angels ending was the best I had ever seen.

I will even be fair and give credit to Sigmanunki and instead of stating exactly what is and isn't possibly I will meet him halfway.

Animation either will or won't be good.
Some fans will be on board, some won't be on board. Some might be open minded enough to change their point of view.
There might or there might not be legal problems.
I don't know anything for a certainty and I acknowledge that.

To be honest I think Sigmanunki is closer to the mark when it comes to the liklyhood that this wont get the amount of fan support it needs. But I think that GB is closer to the mark that if this did have the fan support it will work. But thats just my opinion and everyone is entitled to one.

Something I would like to directly comment on though is when he asked how we could reach every firefly fan. There are probably a few ways but I already know the best one(that doesn't include any expense). Unfortunatly it is both extremely easy and very difficult. Ironically the power to make many thousands of Firefly fans who might be open to Firefly animation aware of it is in the hands of a few firefly fans who are likely not as open to animation.

Its good to see others are supportive of this idea but I especially liked what Asarian semi quoted and it was something similar to what I would have posted on this board myself if this idea ultimatly fails(we are only just getting started though).

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"Apparently you've been pushed to the losing side of this argument; but I'm still not convinced it's the wrong one."

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I think a part of the weariness of the community is that we've seen lots of people come in with some idea of how to save firefly. A lot of the ideas are repeats. Others haven't done even the most basic of research.

I've been around for a long time and I haven't seen any serious discussions about animated Firefly. If there was talk going on around the time of the movie I probably didn't notice because I was more concerned with the movie being a smash hit.

Personally I like the idea of animated Firefly. I've seen animated shows that are done well. If Firefly was done in a similar fashion I think it could run through at least 3 seasons and get us some closure. IMO that's worth a shot.

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Originally posted by Ads:

Fair enough, his style might be relevant(I believe you that he brought it up before). But it also might translate well into firefly and I have yet to see his style in action so I can't make a personal opinion on wether I would like to see Firefly 'similar' to his past work.

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Style changes the whole tone and mood of things. So, it most certainly is relevant to this project. I'm surprised that a clip from a project of his isn't floating around. There was the last time.

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Originally posted by Ads:

You are probably right when it comes to copyright law. But as I said, I don't think it is a fan concern. If GB thinks he can make some animation mock ups than thats his concern and who am I to doubt him. I am sure if Universal or whoever contact him or he realises that he can't safely make mock ups then he will be the first to withdraw his offer.

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I wasn't necessarily talking about the mockups. It's that he's talking about mockups that will lead to a completed project. I'm absolutely certain that Fox/Universal will have something to say about that.

Now, if he was even remotely humble and said, "If there's enough fan support I'll do some mockups. Then if the support is still there, we'll do a bit of a demo and take it to Fox/Universal to see what they think of it." That might be acceptable. But, since all companies I know are very secretive about the projects they are working on until they get the ok from the 'powers that be', I'm still quite dubious about the matter. In fact, since the mockups would be considered derivative works, he's still taking a grand risk. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he got a DMCA takedown notice and talks never happened because of the arrogance of what he's "confident" in.

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Originally posted by Ads:

Of course this concept will need permission. I have already taken that into account as I am sure GB has also. I already recognised and I am sure he has already taken into account that the best way to get permission is to 'try' and generate fan support for something. If the support is there, then the permission will be soon to follow.

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That last sentence should be completed by, if Fox/Universal like it as well. After all, there was fan support for Firefly when it was on the air and that didn't matter one little bit.

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Originally posted by Ads:

I havnt seen many fans state that they wont watch firefly animation and I am not an ostridge. I agnowledge that there is a broader picture I just recognise that as a fan it is not my concern because it is not something I can influence. I will support the most viable way to get firefly back on the air and if it dies despite having the required support then I will at least know we did our best.

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The long game is our best chance to get more FF/S. Grasping at pipe dream projects just makes the community look high maintenance.

http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=2&t=35378#647869

But, I should also say that you haven't seen many fans say that they would watch an animated series either. That being because there aren't many fans around any more.

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Originally posted by Ads:

I wasnt even aware of the Firefly MMO and didn't even recognise what it was when I saw it in your post(i just had a quick look then). So is it a certainty that the exact same thing will happen to Firefly animation if it generates support? I am not aware of what happened with the computer game and would be interested in how this translates into a show for a tv program getting canned. Seriously I just wish to know your opinion because you have already looked into this.

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CK said a bit about that in the above link. But, effectively the word is that the lawyers killed it.

The short story is that Fox gave out the license to Mulitverse to make a MMO in the style of FF. So, they started looking for a development studio and apparently found one. I say apparently because there

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Originally posted by Zeek:

I can't believe that fanfic is being compared to a professional effort to bring the Firefly story back. Cannon is so much more appealing than a fan work IMO.

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Not compared to directly in the way you are implying. You're making assumptions about who is going to be involved in the project, the level of quality, etc. Baseless assumptions.

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Originally posted by Zeek:

I also think it's ridiculous that there's supposedly some impossible roadblock put up by Universal and Fox. Did you hear about these comic book thingies? Apparently the rights got worked out. I'm not too worried about it happening again.

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Comics make peanuts. TV shows on the other hand make a fair bit more. That's what makes it a very different thing when it comes to the lawyers. You heard about that MMO thing, right? The reasons why it got killed, right?

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Originally posted by Zeek:

All in all there's nothing here that is going to hurt the fans. If you would watch the show join the group. If you don't like it then don't bother.

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Actually, yes there is:

http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=2&t=35378#647869

Btw, CK is a creative professional living in LA.

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I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

i.e. hey, maybe he's working for Fox again because he was promised some Firefly opportunities.

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In an interview Joss stated that he had lunch with Eliza and she mentioned a deal she had with Fox. Joss had an idea which was Dollhouse and wanted to work with Eliza again. So, they/he pitched the show and it went from there. There has been exactly zero even rumours about a FF/S link. So, I would thank you to keep these "conspiracy theories" to yourself.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

And I guess I don't understand why someone can't just offer both companies a cut of the profits.

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Um, because business doesn't work that way? Because, the lawyers need to work out every detail and fight with the other owner of the license to try to get the better deal? Because, not every show will be good and in fact, can sully the reputation of the franchise making it even more difficult to profit off of in the future? Etc, etc, etc. Maybe those might have something to do with it?

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

@ Sigmanunki: Fanwork, even the good stuff, isn't official, isn't Joss, Nathan, and crew.

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Neither will an animated series.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

I like fanwork, but proposing that it is the best way to advance the unfinished story lines of Firefly and Serenity, while at the same time decrying that all people are willing to do is post blogs or join facebook groups or give lip-service to ambitious fanprojects doomed to fail, well, that doesn't sit right with me.

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It not sitting right with you doesn't make it not a fact.

The situation is that the size of this fan community is dwindling. The situation is that the fans here only latch on to big projects that are pipe dreams. The situation is that the fans here have historically shown to only to post on forums or at most send a letter or two as an "effort" to get FF/S back. Etc, etc, etc. That's just not good enough. Not by a long shot.

You want people to stick around after finding out about FF/S? You know what needs to happen? Multiple projects going at any given time that have a high probability of successful completion. Not only that, but a tonne of material already completed that will keep people interested and around until the ongoing projects complete whatever they are doing.

Do you honestly think that Fox or Universal is going to do that for us? Well, it's been quite some time since the last thing came out. So, I have to ask: How's the waiting game/waiting for people to do something for you, working for you? From where I sit, it really isn't working all that well.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

I support fanwork because these people are authors and artists I respect and I enjoy what they create, not because I think they're all that's potentially left of future Firefly/Serenity. I enjoy their work because it's good, not because they're a lifeline to grasp at and it's all we got.

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Right now and for the foreseeable future, it is all we got. That's fact. You coming to terms with that is a whole other story though.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

By the way, which of those categories you mention did the Serenity movie fall under? Small project? Not many people involved? No special skills necessary? Not ambitious? Not a lot of funding?

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Um, completely different situation maybe? Like, you know, Joss was involved then. Like the fan community was galvanised in that singular task at that point. Like, there was a lot more of us around not to mentioning active then. Like, the economic situation wasn't in the toilet then. Etc, etc, etc.

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Originally posted by Bytemite:

You seem to think big ideas are bad ideas, that for some reason when a project fizzles out, it also kills hope. I think the big ideas are what give us hope. You say that those hopes are doomed and shouldn't be embrace

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