Why not now fight for a animated firefly show?
POSTED BY: Ads
UPDATED: Thursday, August 29, 2024 00:25
VIEWED: 33090
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@ STORYMARK
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But "we" are not really a big enough market, or this would have happened long ago.
This was tried long ago, soon after the movie in fact, but the fans where so over zealous about live action or nothing that it never took off. But back then there was still a realistic chance of more live action. This is not the case now.
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I agree, there are differences. Chiefly amongst them: Buffy was very popular with a wide audience and got a huge ammount of media attention, Firefly alas, was not. Buffy was, and still is, a property much more likely to survive a transition to another medium.
Your logic about buffy animation differences is correct but you failed to mention some other chief differences which balance out your negative views. While buffy was popular the fans where satisfied on the whole with the way buffy ended and how the story and characters where fully explored. They had no significant reason to support buffy animation. Firefly fans however are very much the opposite and are more likely to go out of there way to support any viable means for the story to reach its full potential.
Also, there where not as many options back then when it came to finding a home for such a show. Nowadays there are channels catoring to almost all tastes and styles and as long as there is 'adequite' support anything can take off.
An example. The first time I ever heard about the animated show cowboy beebop was when someone compared it to firefly. About two weeks ago I was surfing through foxtel and saw cowboy beebop on sci fi so I flicked over to check it out. I watched it for ten minutes and what I saw was a bunch of criminals who had taken over a spaceship. They where discussing there sordid pasts and then got into an argument and one guy ended up getting his throat slit.
Are you telling me that a show like that could be airable and Firefly couldn't. I reckon there are more Firefly fans than cowboy beebop fans. I know the story, script and characters on firefly are better than CB. If that isn't a realistic example I dont know what is.
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Sure, a group of dedicated fans, within the industry, could get something moving - maybe. That does not mean that it'd actually be successfull. If every single Browncoat watched - it probably wouldn't be enough to actually be a success. We need people outside our niche to bring that. And as this thread alone has shown, not even every Browncoat would watch an animated version, just like not every one reads the comics.
Zeek has already adressed this but I will re-iterate also.
If every single firefly fan whatched an animated show then its success is gaurenteed, but I agree that not all of them would. I do however think that if it was made 'most' of them would at least check it out despite their reservations and then all it comes down to is if the show is good or not.
You are wrong about needing fans outside our niche. We need many more fans from outside our niche to bring about live action. We only need to convince 'part' of our nich to support animation for this to get a chance. There are many Firefly fans and it has already been pointed out how much cheaper animation is. We only need a fraction of the fans for this to have a chance.
If it is made and it kicks ass and word spreads to the rest of the fans then not only will it ensure that the rest of the story will unfold via animation but it also makes us well on our way to having the first animated drama with a 'significant' following. Myabe it wont happen, but I dont really care about that anyway. At a minimum I just want this to take off and be maintained by the fraction of the fans who only care about the story, script and characters getting a fair go.
In regards to the comics. There is allot you cannot do in comics. But there is not allot you cannot do in animation. Complete episodic and seasonal story arcs, check. Dynamic conversation, action, and the proper conveyance of humerous and emotional scenes, checks. With good animation you can make a very accurate
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@ SIGMANUNKI
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I checked out that guys "professional" quality animation... not impressed. Not even remotely. It just doesn't fit FF/S.
I'll also point out that his offer, "I'll get my company to do animation mock ups of each of the characters" would be a violation of copyright/IP law. He should expect to get his ass sued the moment Fox and/or Universal finds out about it. And his comment, "I am confident we could see the show by Fall 2010." is delusional. Or has he gotten both Universal and Fox to sign off on the project? I think not.
Seriously, Fox and Universal can't agree on how to work something that is guaranteed to have a revenue stream like the killed FF/S MMO...
Its fine that you don't like his animation. Everyone has different tastes. Personally I like the quality of his work but I have only seen stills so I will reserve final judgment untill I see it live. His style however is irrelivent. The stlye he is using is likely fitting for his movie and is not neccesarily the style he would use for firefly. In fact he and his company would likely get together and try and work out the most fitting style to accuratly represent the 'verse and use their resources and expierience to do it justice. Thats not even mentioning the fact that we are really only supporting Firefly animation. Whoever makes it is our 'secondary' concern at best.
I like how you wrote 'proffesional' like that. Like an animated feature film that cost over two million dollars to make could even be considered anything other than proffesional.
The guy runs a company so I highly doubt that he is stupid enough to offer to do anything that could get him sued. As far as I know anyone can write or draw anything they want as long as said material isn't used to make money. There is already some 'unporfessional' Firefly animation going around.
How do you know he is delusional? Can I ask what you do for a living? The guy is just trying to help us understand that all this concept needs is open minded fans to get behind it. Like he has already tried to do a few years back.
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As I recall, it was a couple million per ep. That wasn't much back then, and it isn't much now. At least for shows that require CG. The real issue is that /scripted/ shows are *far* more expensive then "reality shows." This cost thing is just a pathetic excuse from Fox to kill a show that they didn't like from the get go.
According to GB live action was about 2 million an episode. Good animation can be done for five hundred thousand an episode(including talent). Four hundred thousand if they order episodes in numbers.
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If you're talking about a specialised channel such as the outdoor network, then you're right. But, in general, you're wrong. Counter example, BSG.
GB; "Television is solely a numbers game. If the numbers are there, the network will respond. Fox needed numbers in the 5 million viewers range. As I said, an animated version on Sci-Fi in a late night spot could be landed for a tenth of that."
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You're 1/2 right. You're right that letting studios know that you're interested in a product is a good idea. But, you're wrong about the convincing part. We don't need convincing that it won't happen. It won't. There are legal issues among other things that are reasons why it won't happen.
Thats not a very detailed explanation. I don't think there is a legal reason on the planet that would stop the owners of the firefly rights making more profit on the show. If there is I can assure you they will do their best to get arround it and it is certainly nothing us fans should be concerned about. As I have already said, all we should be focusing on is showing them how much we want to see more firefly.
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Why must this community continue to pursue pipe dreams instead of projects that actually have a chance at success? Oh, wait. Those projects require actual work instead of just sending an email stating that they want something. God forbid that people would actually do something.
This is a pr
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Originally posted by Ads:
His style however is irrelivent.
Actually, his style is relevant. He's stated in prior threads that his company "has its own style." So, that says something about what his is more than likely to do. Look through the archives if you don't believe me.
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Originally posted by Ads:
I like how you wrote 'proffesional' like that. Like an animated feature film that cost over two million dollars to make could even be considered anything other than proffesional.
Well, 1) you should spell things correctly if you're going to get snide like that, and 2) there are many many movies/etc that are consider unprofessional. A good example of that is the Dragonlance animated movie. The word, professional, says more about the word than how much money was spent on it. It tells much about the quality as well.
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Originally posted by Ads:
The guy runs a company so I highly doubt that he is stupid enough to offer to do anything that could get him sued. As far as I know anyone can write or draw anything they want as long as said material isn't used to make money. There is already some 'unporfessional' Firefly animation going around.
You really really need to become more familiar with copyright/IP law.
There's also the fact that tiny little fan projects are typically tolerated (note the typically, some The X Files fans found out when they weren't typical). But, they are still breaking the law and could be shut down at any time.
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Originally posted by Ads:
How do you know he is delusional?
I answered that already. Read the next sentence to that statement.
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Originally posted by Ads:
Can I ask what you do for a living?
Now there is an irrelevant statement if I ever saw one. Also, see comment directly above.
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Originally posted by Ads:
The guy is just trying to help us understand that all this concept needs is open minded fans to get behind it. Like he has already tried to do in the past.
No, it needs far more than that. This "concept" needs to get permission from the current IP holders (Fox and Universal). That costs money.
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Originally posted by Ads:
According to GB live action was about 2 million an episode. Good animation can be done for five hundred thousand an episode(including talent). Four hundred thousand if they order episodes in numbers.
So, you verify what I said and include some other numbers. What's your point? It's still an IP that "we" do not have permission to use nor money that "we" have.
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Originally posted by Ads:
GB; "Television is solely a numbers game. If the numbers are there, the network will respond. Fox needed numbers in the 5 million viewers range. As I said, an animated version on Sci-Fi in a late night spot could be landed for a tenth of that."
Cherry picking your data then, eh? Well, even if that is true, and I highly doubt that, where are those viewers going to come from? Because, even many many Firefly fans have stated that they won't watch. As in, a statement such as the above is moot until the number are proven and the ROI is guaranteed.
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Originally posted by Ads:
Thats not a very detailed explanation. I don't think there is a legal reason on the planet that would stop the owners of the firefly rights making more profit on the show. If there is I can assure you they will do their best to get arround it and it is certainly nothing us fans should be concerned about.
Yah, because that's just what happened with the MMO. Right?
Are you an Ostridge?
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Originally posted by Ads:
As I have already said, all we should be focusing on is showing them how much we want to see more firefly.
Yah, because that's worked so well in the past, right? You know, one of the definitions of insanit
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Originally posted by Ads:
This was tried long ago, soon after the movie in fact, but the fans where so over zealous about live action or nothing that it never took off. But back then there was still a realistic chance of more live action. This is not the case now.
No we weren't. We were against an animated series because the medium doesn't fit FF/S. I was there, I know.
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Originally posted by Ads:
While buffy was popular the fans where satisfied on the whole with the way buffy ended and how the story and characters where fully explored. They had no significant reason to support buffy animation.
Moot.
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Originally posted by Ads:
Firefly fans however are very much the opposite and are more likely to go out of there way to support any viable means for the story to reach its full potential.
Nope. Though, I think you won't believe me as the fans that would be against this don't really come around any more. It's mostly delusional fan boys here now.
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Originally posted by Ads:
Also, there where not as many options back then when it came to finding a home for such a show. Nowadays there are channels catoring to almost all tastes and styles and as long as there is 'adequite' support anything can take off.
It was actually pretty much the same back then. I mean, sure there are more channels now. But, there really isn't any more channels that would be relevant to Buffy or FF/S survival.
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Originally posted by Ads:
An example. The first time I ever heard about the animated show cowboy beebop was when someone compared it to firefly. About two weeks ago I was surfing through foxtel and saw cowboy beebop on sci fi so I flicked over to check it out. I watched it for ten minutes and what I saw was a bunch of criminals who had taken over a spaceship. They where discussing there sordid pasts and then got into an argument and one guy ended up getting his throat slit.
Are you telling me that a show like that could be airable and Firefly couldn't. I reckon there are more Firefly fans than cowboy beebop fans. I know the story, script and characters on firefly are better than CB. If that isn't a realistic example I dont know what is.
Not a realistic example. CB was created as an anime whereas Firefly was filmed and would need to be converted for the new medium. A conversion that isn't possible due to reasons in my last post. Not to mention the radically different animation styles...
But, I'll correct you on your comment that CB's ship was a bunch of criminals. They aren't. They are bounty hunters.
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Originally posted by Ads:
Zeek has already adressed this but I will re-iterate also.
If every single firefly fan whatched an animated show then its success is gaurenteed, but I agree that not all of them would. I do however think that if it was made 'most' of them would at least check it out despite their reservations and then all it comes down to is if the show is good or not.
You are wrong about needing fans outside our niche. We need many more fans from outside our niche to bring about live action. We only need to convince 'part' of our nich to support animation for this to get a chance. There are many Firefly fans and it has already been pointed out how much cheaper animation is. We only need a fraction of the fans for this to have a chance.
If it is made and it kicks ass and word spreads to the rest of the fans then not only will it ensure that the rest of the story will unfold via animation but it also makes us well on our way to having the first animated drama with a 'significant' following.Myabe it wont happen, but I dont really care about that anyway. At a minimum I just want this to take off and be maintained by the fraction of the fans who only care about the story, script and characters getting a fair go.
Two terms apply here, delusional and baseless assumption.
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Originally posted by Ads:
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Wow, you really adressed everything in these ones and as a result have made some really good points so I will make another post tonight. You even fired of a second post before I could finish writing a response to your first one(but I am a slow typer). I am really running out of relaxing time now though so I will have to respond to your second one tommorow.
You have deffinatly made your point clear with the qouting everything so I don't think we need to do that anymore. Also some real points have been made as to why this might not work and these warrant some looking into(which I will do)
Fair enough, his style might be relevant(I believe you that he brought it up before). But it also might translate well into firefly and I have yet to see his style in action so I can't make a personal opinion on wether I would like to see Firefly 'similar' to his past work.
I am sorry for being snide. I just disagreed with your insinuation though and voiced a counter. It wasnt the most polite way to do it though. I am also sorry that I have bad spelling. I sometimes forget that this is important to people and forget to spell check everything. I think if an animation company does something though it is considered professional. It might not be good but I never said all professional work was(it is however more likely).
You are probably right when it comes to copyright law. But as I said, I don't think it is a fan concern. If GB thinks he can make some animation mock ups than thats his concern and who am I to doubt him. I am sure if Universal or whoever contact him or he realises that he can't safely make mock ups then he will be the first to withdraw his offer.
Of course this concept will need permission. I have already taken that into account as I am sure GB has also. I already recognised and I am sure he has already taken into account that the best way to get permission is to 'try' and generate fan support for something. If the support is there, then the permission will be soon to follow.
Maybe GB's figures are not accurate. I am not nieve and I don't asssume anything. So you could be 100% correct. But then again until someone contradicts me with something more certain I am inclined to assume(for now) that he knows what he is talking about.
I havnt seen many fans state that they wont watch firefly animation and I am not an ostridge. I agnowledge that there is a broader picture I just recognise that as a fan it is not my concern because it is not something I can influence. I will support the most viable way to get firefly back on the air and if it dies despite having the required support then I will at least know we did our best.
I wasnt even aware of the Firefly MMO and didn't even recognise what it was when I saw it in your post(i just had a quick look then). So is it a certainty that the exact same thing will happen to Firefly animation if it generates support? I am not aware of what happened with the computer game and would be interested in how this translates into a show for a tv program getting canned. Seriously I just wish to know your opinion because you have already looked into this.
I think I would be insane if I actually did expect anything. All I am doing is hoping and making the most imformed choices I can. All I know is if fans do something as simple as joining a facebook group, which is basically just a glorified petition then we 'might' get something. Might being the operative word because if 50,000 firefly fans took fifteen minutes out of their lives then we would see that either it is enough interest to get a response from the big wigs or it isn't. Seiously what do I or any other fan have to lose for just joining a facebook group.
I see your point though and I might be getting over zealous. But I would just say that I am getting excited. I don't want to see a small Firefly project. I want to see a big firefly project that joss is behind and lots of 'proffesional' effort is put into. I am not getting excited because it is a certainty. I am getting excited because I never thought it was poss
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WTF?
Chaplain of the 76th Independant Battalion
Do not bother dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!
...it's worse than you know...Operative
...it usually is.....Mal
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I'm not sure i'd really like Firefly as an animated show. It just wouldn't be the same.. sure you'd have the story continuation but the entire feel of the show might be lost, I feel..
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I can't believe that fanfic is being compared to a professional effort to bring the Firefly story back. Cannon is so much more appealing than a fan work IMO.
I also think it's ridiculous that there's supposedly some impossible roadblock put up by Universal and Fox. Did you hear about these comic book thingies? Apparently the rights got worked out. I'm not too worried about it happening again.
All in all there's nothing here that is going to hurt the fans. If you would watch the show join the group. If you don't like it then don't bother.
Personally I joined the group. Thanks for the link Ads that made it easy. I'll point some of my other Firefly loving friends to it as well.
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I'd watch an animated version of Firefly. I'm not going to shoot it down without giving it a chance. That's why the original Firefly was cancelled. no one gave it a chance.
(a.k.a. wydraz)
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Well... The situation with Universal and Fox seems a bit murkier right now.
We have Joss Whedon now working for Fox. We have a delay in the newest Serenity comic book. I try to be optimistic about what both those meanings could be, i.e. hey, maybe he's working for Fox again because he was promised some Firefly opportunities. Or even just neutral, in saying Joss is probably just busy with Dollhouse. But it could also be that Fox is trying to squash the comic books, or there's some new fight brewing.
Of course, when it comes to animation, it's not like Fox or Universal have in-house animation studios. They'd have to be approached by an animation company/hire one anyway. And I guess I don't understand why someone can't just offer both companies a cut of the profits.
@ Sigmanunki: Fanwork, even the good stuff, isn't official, isn't Joss, Nathan, and crew. I like fanwork, but proposing that it is the best way to advance the unfinished story lines of Firefly and Serenity, while at the same time decrying that all people are willing to do is post blogs or join facebook groups or give lip-service to ambitious fanprojects doomed to fail, well, that doesn't sit right with me. I support fanwork because these people are authors and artists I respect and I enjoy what they create, not because I think they're all that's potentially left of future Firefly/Serenity. I enjoy their work because it's good, not because they're a lifeline to grasp at and it's all we got.
By the way, which of those categories you mention did the Serenity movie fall under? Small project? Not many people involved? No special skills necessary? Not ambitious? Not a lot of funding?
You seem to think big ideas are bad ideas, that for some reason when a project fizzles out, it also kills hope. I think the big ideas are what give us hope. You say that those hopes are doomed and shouldn't be embraced, I say we should embrace those hopes, or it's a self-fulfilling prophesy that big projects will fail.
I don't think we're ever going to agree on this. And maybe you have the experience/knowledge on your side, and maybe support for new ambitious projects has fallen off since the movie. You point out problems with the animation style, acceptance, professionalism, legal rights, and audience that are all valid concerns, issues that would have to be addressed as part of the process to produce these projects.
But I can't just dismiss the new ambitious projects just on account of their being ambitious. You can ask me not to, and I understand why you're asking me not to, but I can't.
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