Obama's E.O. on lifting Embryonic Stem Cell ban is driving AURaptor crazy!
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 1, 2009 23:36
VIEWED: 9713
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More waste of Federal $$'s, first and foremost. Added to the fact that
A) There's no ban on PRIVATE $$ that can be used for such studies
B) There's no ban of STATE $$ for the same
and
C) Adult stem cells are by far the more proven , effective, safe and reliable source for treatments and cures. 
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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Thanks, Doc.
"Thanks." -Hero, 2009
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
More waste of Federal $$'s, first and foremost. Added to the fact that
A) There's no ban on PRIVATE $$ that can be used for such studies
B) There's no ban of STATE $$ for the same
and
C) Adult stem cells are by far the more proven , effective, safe and reliable source for treatments and cures.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
The fact that you're so dead-set against it, tells me that it's the absolute right thing to do.
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Thanks, Doc.
"Thanks." -Hero, 2009
The laughing Chrisisall
Oh, and your test results came back. You're gonna need a bigger dose of penicillin.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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Quote:Hmmm. You were closer to amusing with the other one, but don't give up!!
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Oh, and your test results came back. You're gonna need a bigger dose of penicillin.
"Thanks." -Hero, 2009
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
The fact that you're so dead-set against it, tells me that it's the absolute right thing to do.
And there we have on display for all to see, a snap shot of the depths of your cognitive skills.
" If'n he's for it, then I'm agin' it!! "
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Hmmm. You were closer to amusing with the other one, but don't give up!!
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Oh, and your test results came back. You're gonna need a bigger dose of penicillin.
The laughing Chrisisall
Please, for the love of god, SHUT UP!
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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And the private sector has stepped up to the plate on embryonic stem cells, done tons of research and generated dozens of treatments.
Why, I'll bet you could name them all Rap !
C'mon boy, speak !
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And the private sector has stepped up to the plate on embryonic stem cells, done tons of research and generated dozens of treatments.
Why, I'll bet you could name them all Rap !
C'mon boy, speak !
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
Thank you for making my point FOR me! If there was any REAL promise in EMBRYONIC stem cells, the private sector would be all over this. Meanwhile, adult stem cells have yielded all manner of treatments. I think the rate is in the area of 100 to 0 over embryonic.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Hmmm. You were closer to amusing with the other one, but don't give up!!
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Oh, and your test results came back. You're gonna need a bigger dose of penicillin.
The laughing Chrisisall
Please, for the love of god, SHUT UP!
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
Go Fuck Yourself!
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thank you, Chrissy.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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Do all political threads around here boil down to people insulting and swearing at each other within a few posts? Are you guys being serious or just recreating barroom brawls...? Just trying to figure out the atmosphere I guess, still being a newcomer. 
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Nah, and I'd say about 80% of that isn't serious anyways - by now we've known each other for YEARS, and Rappy is sorta class clown with a side order of village idiot.
Me, now, im kinda the voice of reason, and *I* am a malevolent, misotheistic, misanthropic anarchist!
So, as you can clearly see, we're all mad here.
Welcome to wonderland, alice!
-Frem
PS. Really, we're not that bad, just don't take any of us too seriously, especially when we're bein serious!
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Thank you for making my point FOR me! If there was any REAL promise in EMBRYONIC stem cells, the private sector would be all over this. Meanwhile, adult stem cells have yielded all manner of treatments. I think the rate is in the area of 100 to 0 over embryonic.
Like if there was real promise in landing a man on the moon, the private sector would have done it. NASA wasting tax dollars AGAIN
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Thank you for making my point FOR me! If there was any REAL promise in EMBRYONIC stem cells, the private sector would be all over this. Meanwhile, adult stem cells have yielded all manner of treatments. I think the rate is in the area of 100 to 0 over embryonic.
Like if there was real promise in landing a man on the moon, the private sector would have done it. NASA wasting tax dollars AGAIN
And if there was any REAL promise in "spreading democracy", the private sector would have invaded Iraq...
Mike
I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.
- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Thank you for making my point FOR me! If there was any REAL promise in EMBRYONIC stem cells, the private sector would be all over this. Meanwhile, adult stem cells have yielded all manner of treatments. I think the rate is in the area of 100 to 0 over embryonic.
Like if there was real promise in landing a man on the moon, the private sector would have done it. NASA wasting tax dollars AGAIN
If there was any promise of a return on investment the private sector would have gone to the moon long ago. Private companies spend much more money on medical research than the government does and profit from the results. Your comparison makes no sense. There are cases like space travel where the government must be involved because we see value in the goals but understand that the return on investment will be nonexistent or so far down the road it's not practical for private sector investment, but I don't see how stem cell research qualifies. If down the road there was no result from private research and there was still promise for stem cells I could see government involvement, but at this point it's just involving the government bureaucracy where it is not necessary.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
If there was any promise of a return on investment the private sector would have gone to the moon long ago. Private companies spend much more money on medical research than the government does and profit from the results. Your comparison makes no sense.
It makes perfect sense. The private sector has benefited MASSIVELY from the Apollo program. As you point out, the private sector won't get involved without a guaranteed return, and that won't happen until someone demonstrates that a return is possible, without it being guaranteed. IF we left everything to the private sector, very little of what we currently have would exist. I'd go so far to say that most modern technology owes it's existence to government grants, which the private sector took over after the initial government funded research proved that it could pay off.
The point is that something that hasn't been researched yet having no proof of being worthwhile is a stupid argument. If that had been the prevailing thought of man over our existence, we'd still be living in the African Savannah.
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Quote:
I'd go so far to say that most modern technology owes it's existence to government grants, which the private sector took over after the initial government funded research proved that it could pay off.
Yup. If the private sector saw promise in the internet, Al Gore wouldn't have had to invent it!
(That'll probably give BOTH sides fits, trying to figure out just what I meant...)
Mike
I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.
- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Yup. If the private sector saw promise in the internet, Al Gore wouldn't have had to invent it!
(That'll probably give BOTH sides fits, trying to figure out just what I meant...)
Heh. Well, the Internet was invented long before Al Gore, and not in the states either (or at least exclusively). It started life as the packet switching network of the US DoD, and various colleges and Universities back in the sixties, all that was publicly funded. HTML was invented at CERN, again largely public money there.
And Actually, Al Gore had a fairly major role in creating the legal frame work of the modern internet, and I think he helped channel funds to Mosaic, the first graphical web browser.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
The point is that something that hasn't been researched yet having no proof of being worthwhile is a stupid argument. If that had been the prevailing thought of man over our existence, we'd still be living in the African Savannah.
The false premise you're relying on is that embryonic stem cell studies have not taken place, when in fact the opposite is true. Enough studies have been done to show that embryonic stem cells are near worthless when compared to adult stem cells. There's the reoccurring problem of tumors w/ relation to ESCs, which isn't present w/ ASCs. So, further study needs to take place w/ ESC just to reach the starting point we've long ago found with ASC.
Again, there was no BAN on private or even public $$ ( at the state level ) for ESC research. ASCs have all the benefit and none of the problems ( genetically or morally ) as ESCs. It's a waste of Fed $$ trying to make work what we already know doesn't work.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The false premise you're relying on is that embryonic stem cell studies have not taken place, when in fact the opposite is true. Enough studies have been done to show that embryonic stem cells are near worthless when compared to adult stem cells. There's the reoccurring problem of tumors w/ relation to ESCs, which isn't present w/ ASCs. So, further study needs to take place w/ ESC just to reach the starting point we've long ago found with ASC.
Again, there was no BAN on private or even public $$ ( at the state level ) for ESC research. ASCs have all the benefit and none of the problems ( genetically or morally ) as ESCs. It's a waste of Fed $$ trying to make work what we already know doesn't work.
Hmm, funny that it's been proven not to work, given that the first human embryonic stem cell trial wasn't approved until this year:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/01/23/stem.cell/
That they've conducted research already and it failed is another RapFact™, also known as a lie.
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your information is a lie, citizen. Tumors have been found w/ embryonic stem cells.
* http://www.usnews.com/blogs/heart-to-heart/2009/03/04/why-embryonic-st
em-cells-are-obsolete.html
Quote:
Why Embryonic Stem Cells Are Obsolete
March 04, 2009 11:52 AM ET | Bernadine Healy, M.D. | Permanent Link | Print
Embryonic stem cells.
Scientists may be growing impatient, but President Obama has been rightly taking his time in addressing a campaign promise to lift the ban on federal funding for research using new lines of stem cells to be taken from human embryos. Even for strong backers of embryonic stem cell research, the decision is no longer as self-evident as it was, because there is markedly diminished need for expanding these cell lines for either patient therapy or basic research. In fact, during the first six weeks of Obama's term, several events reinforced the notion that embryonic stem cells, once thought to hold the cure for Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, and diabetes, are obsolete. The most sobering: a report from Israel published in PLoS Medicine in late February that shows embryonic stem cells injected into patients can cause disabling if not deadly tumors.
The report describes a young boy with a fatal neuromuscular disease called ataxia telangiectasia, who was treated with embryonic stem cells. Within four years, he developed headaches and was found to have multiple tumors in his brain and spinal cord that genetically matched the female embryos used in his therapy.
His experience is neither an anomaly nor a surprise, but one feared by many scientists. These still-mysterious cell creations have been removed from the highly ordered environment of a fast-growing embryo, after all. Though they are tamed in a petri dish to be disciplined, mature cells, research in animals has shown repeatedly that sometimes the injected cells run wildly out of control—dashing hopes of tiny, human embryos benignly spinning off stem cells to save grown-ups, without risk or concern.
That dream was still alive only a few weeks before this report. Within days of Obama's inauguration, the Food and Drug Administration approved its first-ever embryonic stem cell study in humans: the biotech company Geron's plan to inject highly purified human embryonic cells into eight to 10 patients with acute spinal cord injuries. (The cells are from a stem cell line approved by Bush because it predated his ban.) The FDA should now be compelled to take another look: Are eight to 10 patients enough, or one year of monitoring sufficient, to assess safety? And doctors who participate in the trial will have to ask what every doctor must ask before performing research on a human subject: Were I this patient, would I participate? Would I encourage my loved ones to do so?
Even as the future of embryonic stem cells has dimmed, adult stem cell research has scored major wins evident just in the past few months. These advances involve human stem cells that are not derived from human embryos. In fact, adult stem cells, which occur in small quantities in organs throughout the body for natural growth and repair, have become stars despite great skepticism early on. Though this is a more difficult task, scientists have learned to coax them to mature into many cell types, like brain and heart cells, in the laboratory. (Such stem cells can be removed almost as easily as drawing a unit of blood, and they have been used successfully for years in bone marrow transplants.)
To date, most of the stem cell triumphs that the public hears about involve the infusion of adult stem cells. We've just recently seen separate research reports of patients with spinal cord injury and multiple sclerosis benefiting from adult stem cell therapy. These cells have the advantage of being the patient's natural own, and the worst they seem to do after infusion is die off without bringing the hoped-for benefit. They do not have the awesome but dangerous quality of eternal life characteristic of embryonic stem cells.
A second kind of stem cell that has triumpheNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
your information is a lie, citizen. Tumors have been found w/ embryonic stem cells.
Ahh, yes. I post information from an outside source, while we have your say so.
Funny that if my information is a lie, you can't drag anything more substantial out of your over stuffed arse than your say so. Yet another RapFact™.
You've got nothing.
I see you drag up an opinion piece you can't even post a link for. As usual you prove yourself a liar, no help from anyone required
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::: hands citizen a dish towel :::::
Here, wipe the embryonic gunk off your face, mate. 
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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I don't want it, it's got Rush Limbaughs semen on it from last time you too had a meeting.
Again, you prove yourself a liar who can't back up word one of his science and freedom hating idiocy.
EDIT:
I see you've added a few things to your post that weren't there previously. Again you prove yourself a liar. You can't help yourself can you?
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I don't want it, it's got Rush Limbaughs semen on it from last time you too had a meeting.
Again, you prove yourself a liar who can't back up word one of his science and freedom hating idiocy.
Evidence to support my claim ? Check
Link from where evidence was found ? Check
Proof that you're a liar, punk AND a coward? Check, check, check.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I don't want it, it's got Rush Limbaughs semen on it from last time you too had a meeting.
Again, you prove yourself a liar who can't back up word one of his science and freedom hating idiocy.
* While we have an open policy concerning messages, please be civil when responding to others.*
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Link from where evidence was found ? Check
Check your post again. The link there is the one from my post. Proof that you are a liar: Check and check.
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Proof that you're a liar, punk AND a coward? Check, check, check.
Proof that none of these things are true of me, but 100% true of the question truth dodging gimp that is AURetard: Check Check check and check.
Thanks again for proving you are a liar and a retard!
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
* While we have an open policy concerning messages, please be civil when responding to others.*
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Proof that you're a liar, punk AND a coward? Check, check, check.
* While we have an open policy concerning messages, please be civil when responding to others.*
Did I forget to mention Hypocrite?
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It's funny that you'd call anyone a hypocrite, as you didn't even READ the post I gave ( link or no link ) before you dismissed it , out of hand. Called it some "opinion piece", and accused me of possibly writing it myself. Sorry, but you're just such a complete and utter tool ( this is being civil, mind you, because it's been documented that you are a liar, a coward, an idiot and a tool ) 
And FYI, I was on the straight and level to start this thread, it was Frem who interjected the first insults. Per usual. ( But I ignored that nonsense ) It was still you , concerning our back and forth, who started w/ the insults.
Quote:
Hmm, funny that it's been proven not to work, given that the first human embryonic stem cell trial wasn't approved until this year:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/01/23/stem.cell/
That they've conducted research already and it failed is another RapFact™, also known as a lie.
Bravo, moron.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
It's funny that you'd call anyone a hypocrite, as you didn't even READ the post I gave ( link or no link ) before you dismissed it , out of hand. Called it some "opinion piece", and accused me of possibly writing it myself.
That's because it's the kinda thing a proven liar like you would do. You've only just added a link, without noting that you hadn't done so till now. Another lie, from a proven lying hypocrite. No wonder no one takes you seriously!
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Sorry, but you're just such a complete and utter tool ( this is being civil, mind you, because it's been documented that you are a liar, a coward, an idiot and a tool )
Again, you prove yourself a coward a liar and a moron. Which is a statement of fact, you prove it every time you post.
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
And FYI, I was on the straight and level to start this thread, it was YOU who interjected the first insults. Per usual.
Erm, nope. There's no insult there. Again you lie as usual.
Bravo, Liar.
Why do you hate science anyway?
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Now your parrot act kicks in. Predictable.
I debunk your claims on embryonic stem cell research, the tumors caused ( WHEN ? ) in trials which started YEARS ago, despite your silly claim that they're just NOW getting under way.
I provide for you a link, to a story containing info from a peer reviewed web site, the Public Library of Science.
Funny, that even in England, you'd refer to the USFDA as the be all , end all to things and studies related to embryonic stem cells. MY GOD, you're such a sheep, and it's not even YOUR bureaucracy!!!
And the BEST you can come up with is ignore the details, parrot your old, disproved and outlandishly pathetic insults, because you're not MAN enough to deal w/ having your hat handed to you, even over the internet.
In the whole human history of adversarial engagements, there's never been such a one sided affair as the way I've trounced you here.
Congrats. You're less than road kill.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Now your parrot act kicks in. Predictable.
I debunk your claims on embryonic stem cell research, the tumors caused ( WHEN ? ) in trials which started YEARS ago, despite your silly claim that they're just NOW getting under way.
I provide for you a link, to a story containing info from a peer reviewed web site, the Public Library of Science.
Funny, that even in England, you'd refer to the USFDA as the be all , end all to things and studies related to embryonic stem cells. MY GOD, you're such a sheep, and it's not even YOUR bureaucracy!!!
And the BEST you can come up with is ignore the details, parrot your old, disproved and outlandishly pathetic insults, because you're not MAN enough to deal w/ having your hat handed to you, even over the internet.
In the whole human history of adversarial engagements, there's never been such a one sided affair as the way I've trounced you here.
Congrats. You're less than road kill.
And now your "I'll shout that I'm the winner, and hope someone believes it" act.
Congrats, you've just proven that you've lost. Not to mention that you've proven yourself a liar again by saying you've linked to the Public Library of Science (*).
you're such a freedom hating terrorist.
* A statement true when it was made, I have no doubt he'll go back to edit his posts to include it.
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Quote:
you're such a freedom hating terrorist.
Where's the retraction that no ESC research has been done because of W's ban on Federal Funding ? Where's the admission that I was right, and you were wrong, concerning the issue of tumors and ESC trials , which were started YEARS ago, and aren't now just getting underway. As you knowingly LIED about.
C'mon.... be the better man. Admit I schooled you on this one, and move on. Don't let your humiliation linger.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
you're such a freedom hating terrorist.
Where's the retraction that no ESC research has been done because of W's ban on Federal Funding ? Where's the admission that I was right, and you were wrong, concerning the issue of tumors and ESC trials , which were started YEARS ago, and aren't now just getting underway. As you knowingly LIED about.
C'mon.... be the better man. Admit I schooled you on this one, and move on. Don't let your humiliation linger.
Err, I don't consider an ill conceived injection in Moscow a human trial. The FDA trial is the first Human trial, it's the difference between having a proper X-Ray, and standing inside a nuclear reactor. As usual you've 'schooled' no one. All you've done is shown that getting medical treatments from a backstreet butcher is a bad idea, and that you can't tell the difference between a human trial, and just injecting some cells stripped from some foetus. You've still yet to bring up any evidence of actual scientific human trials yet. In truth, I've really not heard of any, so if you could stop being a dick and supply that evidence, that would be great, cheers.
Marie Currie got cancer from her experiments with Radiation. So your argument is that Radiation, like X-Rays and Cancer Radiation Therapy are proven to have no worth? Well done!
Don't let your humiliation and lies linger.
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Naww......I didn't think you were man enough to apologize, even after getting humiliated.
Thanks for at least proving me right on that account!
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Naww......I didn't think you were man enough to apologize, even after getting humiliated.
Thanks for at least proving me right on that account!
That's what I thought, you've got nothing, and even though you've been proven wrong, you still demand an apology from other people, hoping no one will notice how wrong you are.
You've got no case, as usual you prove yourself a desperate liar.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Posted by AuRaptor:
*edit - making AuRaptor look like a complete jack ass, as well as a liar AND a moron simply isn't any fun any more. It's just too damn easy to do, and wastes too much of my valuable time.
Fixed.
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Quote:
Where's the retraction that no ESC research has been done because of W's ban on Federal Funding ? Where's the admission that I was right, and you were wrong, concerning the issue of tumors and ESC trials , which were started YEARS ago, and aren't now just getting underway. As you knowingly LIED about.
Well, technically he didn't "lie" if he didn't have knowledge of such events. I know you yourself have said that many, many times.
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Quote:
Naww......I didn't think you were man enough to apologize, even after getting humiliated.
Are you? I've seen you get humiliated several times, yet I've yet to see you ever issue an apology over it. It's okay, I'll wait.
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"Meanwhile, adult stem cells have yielded all manner of treatments."
Yes with all research funded by federal grant money. So, Rap, the Wonder Dog, name me which companies did the research on adult embryonic stem cells.
C'mon boy ! Sit ! I saaaaiiid SIT !! Now roll over !
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
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Bernadine Healy: "Appointed in 1991 by President George H. W. Bush to be the first female head of the institutes. ... Healy was a Republican candidate for the U.S. Senate in 1994." Considering what actual researchers said: "The authors discuss the extremely rare nature of this side effect and speculate that the patient's underlying condition may itself have allowed the tumor to become established ... Although this report indicates the need for caution in stem cell therapy, the authors conclude that their findings "do not imply that the research in stem cell therapeutics should be abandoned."
Weird how Healy takes a single instance of an (apparently) unauthorized medical 'treatment', and uses it to reach a scientifically invalid 'conclusion'. Think she's got a conservative political agenda ?
I did some checking on embryonic stem cells and cancer or tumors done by real researchers doing real research. I found nothing, nada, and also, zip.
Why, if it was such an awful problem it should be all over the place, right Rap, the Wonder Dog ?
C'mon boy ! Paw once if yes, twice if no ! C'mon by ! You can do it !
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I did some checking on embryonic stem cells and cancer or tumors done by real researchers doing real research. I found nothing, nada, and also, zip.
Why, if it was such an awful problem it should be all over the place, right Rap, the Wonder Dog ?
C'mon boy ! Paw once if yes, twice if no ! C'mon by ! You can do it !
Yeah, that's what I was saying. The kid went to Moscow, which being Moscow either has no medical laws to speak of, or he was treated by the Russian Mafia, and all they did is rip some cells off of an embryo, and inject them into him. I mean that's hardly a medical trail in anyones vernacular. That's like saying "well me and some buds sawed this guys leg off once, and he died, pretty much proves that Amputations have no medical application huh!"
So again, I say: there's been no human trials of embryonic stem cells.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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But Rue & Cit, didn't you see where AuLapdog already declared himself the winner at the internet? He's claimed victory, so anything which contradicts his RapFacts™ at this point merely makes you look desperate, don'tcha know?
Mike
I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.
- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
But Rue & Cit, didn't you see where AuLapdog already declared himself the winner at the internet? He's claimed victory, so anything which contradicts his RapFacts™ at this point merely makes you look desperate, don'tcha know?
Indeed! How silly of me. I stand properly chastised, after losing the interwebs.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
More waste of Federal $$'s, first and foremost. Added to the fact that
A) There's no ban on PRIVATE $$ that can be used for such studies
B) There's no ban of STATE $$ for the same
and
C) Adult stem cells are by far the more proven , effective, safe and reliable source for treatments and cures.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
Who is the retard that changed the thread title again? Can he please go back to 3rd grade and leave this to the grownups?
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Now your parrot act kicks in. Predictable.
I debunk your claims on embryonic stem cell research, the tumors caused ( WHEN ? ) in trials which started YEARS ago, despite your silly claim that they're just NOW getting under way.
I provide for you a link, to a story containing info from a peer reviewed web site, the Public Library of Science.
Funny, that even in England, you'd refer to the USFDA as the be all , end all to things and studies related to embryonic stem cells. MY GOD, you're such a sheep, and it's not even YOUR bureaucracy!!!
And the BEST you can come up with is ignore the details, parrot your old, disproved and outlandishly pathetic insults, because you're not MAN enough to deal w/ having your hat handed to you, even over the internet.
In the whole human history of adversarial engagements, there's never been such a one sided affair as the way I've trounced you here.
Congrats. You're less than road kill.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
Golly. AuRap, Jongstraw, and Kirkules have been mopping the floor, and cleaning the toilet with you guys, all week long and throughout the RWED territories. I have no idea how they've found the time to joust with all you twits, but it has been entertaining and heartening.
Kudos.
The point was perhaps missed, when somebody pointed out how much a failure Embryonic was versus Adult, that the FAILED route is the one the Democrats and other liberals must decree - never the successful option.
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Golly. AuRap, Jongstraw, and Kirkules have been mopping the floor, and cleaning the toilet with you guys, all week long and throughout the RWED territories. I have no idea how they've found the time to joust with all you twits, but it has been entertaining and heartening.
Kudos.
The point was perhaps missed, when somebody pointed out how much a failure Embryonic was versus Adult, that the FAILED route is the one the Democrats and other liberals must decree - never the successful option.
You can tell 'Raps lost when his idiot sock puppet comes out to declare him the winner!
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by ElvisChrist:Quote:
Naww......I didn't think you were man enough to apologize, even after getting humiliated.
Are you? I've seen you get humiliated several times, yet I've yet to see you ever issue an apology over it. It's okay, I'll wait.
The few times I've made errors, I've owned up to them. But never have I been so far off as citizen here. He asked for evidence, I gave it. He asked for a link , I gave it. On the very core of the issue, and not some trivial side issue of grammar or context, citizen has stepped into it, up to his shoulders. And refuses to acknowledge the error of his ways.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
You can tell 'Raps lost when his idiot sock puppet comes out to declare him the winner!
And that differs greatly when your 'droids come out and take YOUR side.... how ?
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by ElvisChrist:Quote:
Naww......I didn't think you were man enough to apologize, even after getting humiliated.
Are you? I've seen you get humiliated several times, yet I've yet to see you ever issue an apology over it. It's okay, I'll wait.
The few times I've made errors, I've owned up to them. But never have I been so far off as citizen here. He asked for evidence, I gave it. He asked for a link , I gave it. On the very core of the issue, and not some trivial side issue of grammar or context, citizen has stepped into it, up to his shoulders. And refuses to acknowledge the error of his ways.
/B]
Nice dodge. The QUESTION I asked you was whether you were man enough to APOLOGIZE. Clearly, you aren't.
Don't tell me that my ship is coming in...
Time's running out the door you're running in.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
And that differs greatly when your 'droids come out and take YOUR side.... how ?
Because it never happens because I don't have any.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
The few times I've made errors, I've owned up to them. But never have I been so far off as citizen here. He asked for evidence, I gave it. He asked for a link , I gave it. On the very core of the issue, and not some trivial side issue of grammar or context, citizen has stepped into it, up to his shoulders. And refuses to acknowledge the error of his ways.
But you're the one who was proven wrong. I asked for evidence of human trials, you still haven't provided that. And yet you refuse to apologise or acknowledge how wrong you are, prefering to demand people apologise to you, and dragging your impotent sock puppets in, in a desperate and fruitless attempt to lend credibility to your way off ravings.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Rap,
Just one question, are you a moron or a whore?
Clearly, stem cell research requires a lot of R&D money, just like the missile systems you love. You love them because they protect you from Muhammed al Insano with bombs strapped to his nuts.
Now, let's look statistically. Stem Cells are a line of defense against a heart disease, diabetes, cancer and now even aids. These are much more likely to kill you than Muhammed al Insano.
So,
1. Either you're a total whore for big pharma to help make money while letting people like yourself and the rest of us die.
or
2. You're just a f^&king moron.
Sorry, just the level truth. Don't worry, I'm a drive by, I won't be back to argue.
As you were
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
You can tell 'Raps lost when his idiot sock puppet comes out to declare him the winner!
Such adroit and thoughtful counterpoint - NOT!
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Such adroit and thoughtful counterpoint - NOT!
And yet is still more adroit and thoughtful than anything you post as Raps unthinking sock puppet...
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Steady, resolute and ever on topic.
Like NEVER.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Rap,
Just one question, are you a moron or a whore?
Clearly, stem cell research requires a lot of R&D money, just like the missile systems you love. You love them because they protect you from Muhammed al Insano with bombs strapped to his nuts.
Now, let's look statistically. Stem Cells are a line of defense against a heart disease, diabetes, cancer and now even aids. These are much more likely to kill you than Muhammed al Insano.
So,
1. Either you're a total whore for big pharma to help make money while letting people like yourself and the rest of us die.
or
2. You're just a f^&king moron.
Sorry, just the level truth. Don't worry, I'm a drive by, I won't be back to argue.
As you were
I suspect you'll be back. You falsely presume it's one or t'other. Point of fact, dear Dreamy, is that all the benefits you seek to find in ESC are being found in ASC. And it's not an issue of simply how much $$ is thrown at a problem that determines its success. I'm sorry, it just isn't. Some paths are simply better than others, and the one we're funding now w/ ASC is yielding far more beneficial treatments and cures. And if Big Pharm DID see $$ in ESC, they'd go after the ESC research on their own. They sure as hell wouldn't have sat idly by and watched the rest of the world leave us in the dust when it came to ESC studies. But that's pretty much exactly what they did, isn't it ? W in no way banned ESC research, nor did he ban STATES from using their $$ either.
So, to complete your thought where you were too short sighted to ad in the first place, add another option. 3
3. I'm practical , where it makes sense to be, in regards to science.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Steady, resolute and ever on topic.
Like NEVER.
That's a good description of you and your toddler sock puppets contribution.
Any luck finding that scientific human study yet? No, didn't think so; it's alright I know you're not man enough to admit when you're wrong, just insult me and declare yourself the winner again in the hopes that someone outside of your toddler-circle jerk will believe you (they don't).
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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On the embryonic stem cell thing:
People have been dumb enough to try to inject unspecialized embryonic stem cells into people and hope they'll magically go where they're needed and turn into the right cell types? That reminds me of the turn of LAST century, when people were drinking Uranium tonic.
In embryos, approximate location and function of cells are determined very early on (like when there are 8 cells, total) by first a protein gradient and then MASSIVE, massive amounts of hormones, controls, switching gene expression on and off...
I mean, hell, I can believe tumors would result if quacks are using THOSE kinds of treatments. That's just laziness and magic wand waving. For you to expect any positive result, you have to specialize the stem cell.
The point of embryonic stem cells is that they're more versatile than adult stem cells, that eventually they can turn into ANY cell type, whereas adult stem cells are more limited. To turn an adult stem cell into a specific type of cell, the cell has to be derived from a particular lineage of cell.
Also, unfortunate as it is, there's not many sources for harvesting living adult stem cells (skin cells modified to be pluripotent have their own limitations and problems, so the other types still have to be harvested). There are many embryos created just for research that will never be implanted in any womb or grow to be a living, functioning person. So there is a non-abortive source for embryonic stem cells, and a potential to grow the stock of embryonic stem cells far greater than the amount of adult stem cell lines we have available, provided it is not illegal to do so.
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Rap,
I see you didn't address the facts I posted.
BAD DOG !
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
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For anyone else with an ounce of brain, I challenge you to address the following facts:
Embryonic stem cell therapy hasn't failed because it simply hasn't been tried in any scientific way.
Adult stem cell therapy has likewise never succeeded b/c the cells never do replace the dead or diseased tissue.
This is what happens with adult stem cells: suppose you are using skin stem cells to try and repair the heart. What they will do is FUSE to existing heart muscle cells to create a hybrid skin\ heart muscle cell. But they will never BECOME a heart muscle cell. Should the heart muscle cell that's part of the hybrid cell die, you will lose heart muscle function - ie have a heart attack.
THAT is the failing of adult stem cells - they never DO become the cells you need. And THAT is the promise of embryonic stem cells - that they WILL become the cells you need.
***************************************************************
I hope that is simple enough for your comprehension.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rap,
I see you didn't address the facts I posted.
BAD DOG !
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
Sometimes it helps if you whack him on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper, or rub his nose in it.
(Kidding - I'd never treat a dog that way.)
Mike
I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.
- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen
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Quote:
Originally posted by CellarDoor:
Do all political threads around here boil down to people insulting and swearing at each other within a few posts? Are you guys being serious or just recreating barroom brawls...? Just trying to figure out the atmosphere I guess, still being a newcomer.
Well, the Dick Cheney thing is new.
Anyway, if you're interested in discussion, just jump right in and ignore the bickering. If you're interested in lurking, I'd advise against doing too much of it, to preserve any optimism about the nature of humanity.
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Personally, I like to mix snark and facts. I have found there are VERY few people willing to discuss facts even though I include topical ones. And sometimes, it's just fun to point and laugh.
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
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S'wenyways, for those of you who missed this post:
For anyone else with an ounce of brain, I challenge you to address the following facts:
Embryonic stem cell therapy hasn't failed because it simply hasn't been tried in any scientific way.
Adult stem cell therapy has likewise never succeeded b/c the cells never do replace the dead or diseased tissue.
This is what happens with adult stem cells: suppose you are using skin stem cells to try and repair the heart. What they will do is FUSE to existing heart muscle cells to create a hybrid skin\ heart muscle cell. But they will never BECOME a heart muscle cell. Should the heart muscle cell that's part of the hybrid cell die, you will lose heart muscle function - ie have a heart attack.
THAT is the failing of adult stem cells - they never DO become the cells you need. And THAT is the promise of embryonic stem cells - that they WILL become the cells you need.
***************************************************************
I hope that is simple enough for your comprehension.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
I don't want it, it's got Rush Limbaughs semen on it from last time you too had a meeting.
Again, you prove yourself a liar who can't back up word one of his science and freedom hating idiocy.
* While we have an open policy concerning messages, please be civil when responding to others.*
Uh...bringing that up at this point is a little like closing the barn door after the horses have eaten your children...
It was like that when we got here!
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
your information is a lie, citizen. Tumors have been found w/ embryonic stem cells.
* http://www.usnews.com/blogs/heart-to-heart/2009/03/04/why-embryonic-st
em-cells-are-obsolete.htmlQuote:
Why Embryonic Stem Cells Are Obsolete
March 04, 2009 11:52 AM ET | Bernadine Healy, M.D. | Permanent Link | Print
Well, according to Wiki (always feel just a trifle uneasy whenever I type that), she was good enough for Dubya...
Quote:
She has been serving the administration of George W. Bush as an advisor on bio-terrorism on the President’s Council of Advisors on Science and Technology since 2001.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernadine_Healy
'Course, that's the most damning thing I found on her in 5 minutes or less. For all I know she was the lone voice of enlightenment in that medieval wilderness...
It was like that when we got here!
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For those who will not click on Wiki or do any extra reading (and there are many):
Bernadine Healy
"(Red Cross) Announced a forced resignation in October 2001 and retired on December 31, 2001, amid controversy over the handling of funds for victims of the September 11, 2001 attacks."
I'd give her a question mark on policy integrity and ethics as the authority handling large amounts of money.
"TASSC Healy was a member of the Advisory board of The Advancement of Sound Science Coalition, an organization later shown to have been founded by PR firm APCO and funded by the Philip Morris corporation to criticise scientific research inimical to the interests of tobacco companies and other corporations ..."
This indicates questionable scientific and medical ethics as well.
"lifelong repubican ..."
Also very active in promotimg the repubican agenda.
"Why Embryonic Stem Cells Are Obsolete Bernadine Healy, M.D"
v
"... the authors conclude that their findings "do not imply that the research in stem cell therapeutics should be abandoned.""
I'd say she is not well-versed in the science of ANY kind of stem-cell research, either.
***************************************************************
Yep, she's quite the 'ethical', 'unbiased' and 'knowledgeable' authority you want to be quoting. Aside from the unfortunate fact that she wrote an opinion piece based on the one and only ad-hoc unapproved embryonic stem cell 'treatment'.
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I can certainly agree that Bernadine Healy was one of the worst picks by Bush, along with Leon Panetta. Grossly dismayed when he made those picks, not surprised by the massive errors made by those 2 since. She belongs as far away from anything science as can be, I expect the same quality of drivel from her as I do from Janet Napolitano. Healy's record at NIH was abominable.
AuRap - can you summarize if there has been progress made regarding WHY the difference between success rates between Embryonic and Adult? I hadn't heard if there was a cause found, or if it was being looked for.
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rue
Can you explain to me why embryonic stem cell research is so vital, when we can obtain pluripotent cell supplies from adult stem cells ?
Also, what does the issue of Bernadine Healy have to do w/ anything? Your attempt to equate her forced resignation to the embryonic stem cell research is so far beyond the realm of honesty, I have to ask, what are you smoking ?
People sent in donations to help the victims of the 9/11 attacks. Instead of directing all these monies towards the cause for which they were sent, Ms Healy instead took it upon herself to spread the donations around, so as to fund other areas in which Red Cross offers aid.
I was, like many Americans, furious to hear that the $$ I sent in to Red Cross might not be used for the 9/11 cause, but NONE of this has a damn thing to do w/ anything to do w/ stem cell research and her being a " life long republican ". If anything, her actions could be viewed as being Liberal, in the use of other people's $$ to be used in areas which we had no say. I can understand her intent, but it's false advertising to ask for $$ because of the 9/11 attacks, and then use much of the $$ you raised from that call in areas totally unrelated to the 9/11 attacks.
All you've done is to loosely connect 'life long republican', 'big tobacco', and ' misappropriation of funds' in a thinly veiled attempt to besmirch her character.
Quote:
Cardiologist Bernadine Healy is a physician, educator, and health administrator who was the first woman to head the National Institutes of Health (NIH). Known for her outspoken, innovative policymaking, Dr. Healy has been particularly effective in addressing medical policy and research pertaining to women.
After completing her internship and residency at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, Dr. Healy spent two years at the National Heart, Lung, and Blood Institute at the National Institutes of Health before returning to Hopkins in 1976, where she became a professor of medicine. She earned a reputation as a skilled cardiovascular researcher specializing in the pathology of heart attacks. She also became the school's first woman to serve as assistant dean for postdoctoral programs and faculty development.
When Dr. Healy made her debut as director of the National Institutes of Health, she joked, "Things are so bad, some have said, they couldn't even get a man to be NIH director." At that time, the National Institutes of Health was an agency beset with problems. It was thought to be in decline and scientists were leaving in record numbers. The agency had also been accused of sexism and racism in hiring and promotion. The NIH has been without a director for almost two years, and Dr. Healy's appointment was viewed especially positively by many because of her experience in dealing with science policy issues.
While she was at the National Institutes of Health, Dr. Healy undertook a number of initiatives. She established an award program to keep talented scientists working within the grant system during funding lapses, oversaw the development of a major intramural genetics laboratory and an Institute for Nursing Research, and launched the $625 million Women's Health Initiative (a long-term health study involving 150,000 women). In the interest of better understanding the different ways disease and treatment affect men and women, she also established a policy whereby the National Institutes of Health would fund only those clinical trials that included both men and women when the condition being studied affected both genders.
As president of the American Heart Association from 1998 to 1999, she initiated pioneering research into women's heart disease and demonstrated that medical progress depends on the public and medical community's perception that there is a problem to be solved. Healy set out to convince both the lay and medical sectors that heart disease is also a woman's disease, "not a man's disease in disguise."
Taking only a brief moment to look over this woman's professional career should be enough to see that she k
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
AuRap - can you summarize if there has been progress made regarding WHY the difference between success rates between Embryonic and Adult? I hadn't heard if there was a cause found, or if it was being looked for.
Tumors form from treatments when embryonic stem cells are used. I've not had time to see whether the cause has been isolated or not. Regardless, they've not been able to keep the tumors from growing. No such problem arises when adult stem cells are used.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
A concern of the GOP is that the people aren't informed enough to understand their policies, while a fear of the Dems is that the people ARE.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Tumors form from treatments when embryonic stem cells are used. I've not had time to see whether the cause has been isolated or not. Regardless, they've not been able to keep the tumors from growing. No such problem arises when adult stem cells are used.
Have you received Embryonic Stem Cell treatments? Do they cause you to talk to yourself?
Still waiting for proof to back up your assertion that there have been any human trials of ESCs (and no, injecting random cells into people and hoping for the best doesn't count).
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Let's bring this into relevance of the whole meaning of this site before we forget :o)
What would Malcom Reynolds think about ESCR? GOVERNMENT funded/mandated ESCR using taxpayer dollars?
I think the answer is pretty clear, but in the context of the series and movie . . . what are YOUR thoughts and keep them civil.
Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas
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Just because research is being allowed doesn't mean it's "mandated". It doesn't even necessarily mean it'll be funded. If you think that's the case, you obviously have NO IDEA how research grants work! There is no "Office of the Overseer of Research" saying...Mwhahahaha! You WILL do this embryonic stem cell research! What happens... in real life... is that research proposals are submitted to a panel of scientists who are also researching that field. Those proposals could be about ANYTHING in that field of, say, research medicine: The Study of Growth Regulation in ESC or Mutiply Resistant Gram-Negative Bacteria Response to UV Sterilization or The Use of Humira in Autoimmune Inner Ear Diseases
The proposals are evaluated against each other, and against the available pot of money. Only one out of ever ten proposals is ever funded.
---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.
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Okay . . . mandated was a poor choice of wording.
Let's say the Alliance broadcasted across the signal that they were going to allow any money taken in from the planets (core or otherwise) to be possibly used to destroy human embryos so stem cells could harvested.
What would Malcom Reynolds say to that?
Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas
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AURaptor: Rue did ecplain why adult cells modified to be pluripotent have limitations.
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
This is what happens with adult stem cells: suppose you are using skin stem cells to try and repair the heart. What they will do is FUSE to existing heart muscle cells to create a hybrid skin\ heart muscle cell. But they will never BECOME a heart muscle cell. Should the heart muscle cell that's part of the hybrid cell die, you will lose heart muscle function - ie have a heart attack.
THAT is the failing of adult stem cells - they never DO become the cells you need. And THAT is the promise of embryonic stem cells - that they WILL become the cells you need.
The reason they have these limitations, is that though they are pluripotent, and CAN become different subtypes of cells, the cells are already specialized to some degree, and are limited by their lineage.
Although I agree that misuse of stem cells, adult or embryonic, could cause tumors. I mean, that just seems like common sense, look at the tumors people get when they absorbed a fraternal twin in the womb. Let's make sure people know what they're doing.
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Prolly the same as he would to anything else the Alliance wanted to do: Stay away from it. That would include cancer research too.
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It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.
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Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
Okay . . . mandated was a poor choice of wording.
Let's say the Alliance broadcasted across the signal that they were going to allow any money taken in from the planets (core or otherwise) to be possibly used to destroy human embryos so stem cells could harvested.
What would Malcom Reynolds say to that?
Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas
Since the embryos the stem cells are harvested from are not viable embryos in the first place, I think Mal would have zero problem with it. Think of it as a salvage operation - there's no viable "person" in that embryo; it's NEVER going to grow into a human being, so why not try to salvage some good out of it.
Mike
I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.
- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen
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Now don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say whether the embryos were viable or not. It can be seen that the embryos have to come from somewhere and how they are made "not viable" is a point of contention also. You can say they're "made" in a lab, but still, once a brain stem is formed, there is LIFE there. Human life. Don't tell me that you can't tell what it is at that stage of development. That is not the issue. It is human tissue, actual and whole. Just not fully formed. If that's the case (and I'm not saying that it is, mind you - just a hypothesis). . . creating life, just to destroy/kill it? I think Mal would have a BIG problem with that.
Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas
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Sorry, but from a laymans point of view that really sounds ridiculous, what's next, decrying the "abuse" of bacterial cultures cause it's potential "life" ?
I don't buy that philosophy, no.
Especially since I happen to be someone who deals with the wreckage left over when folk use that philosophy to defend a "potential child" up till the moment it pops out, whereupon they abandon any further interest whatsoever - and it gets ugly after that, never think that it don't.
Also, ponder that if we ever do get to cloning whole organs, fully realized human lives in progress would be saved - and in all honesty I would say the value of a realized life in progress with other people attached to and potentially dependant on it carries a greater moral weight than a mere potential.
That doesn't mean I do NOT see the potential for immorality or abuse - hell DARPA is already playing with genetics looking for a method of creating supersoldiers, despite how shortsightedly stupid, morally bankrupt and abysmally foolish from a historical perspective that is, but we all knew that'd happen anyway.
I do in fact have my own reservations both logical and spiritual regarding "playing god"
(much like the big one I have with nuclear weapons, as I consider them a blasphemous sacrilege)
But despite those reservations I do not feel the entire BRANCH of research is immoral or without potential benefits to all mankind.
In fact it is those very benefits that big pharma and the modern medical care industry fears terribly, since if not chopped up, walled off, nibbled to death by legal challenges and locked up by patents to keep them out of the hands of the people - they will spell the end of treating symptoms for profit while allowing the patient to suffer longer as a "treatment" methodology.
A cured patient is no longer a source of income, and that's the LAST thing big pharma and the medical care system wants.
Which is WHY private money isn't going to do the job here, and despite my ire at our entire theft by force taxation system, I'd rather the money go into something that might actually BENEFIT humanity rather than into invasions, wars, and big shiny toys for the miltary-industrial complex to kill more of us with.
Sure, it makes me uneasy and uncomfortable because it screws with my own internal preconceptions about what life IS - but I refuse to let those preconceptions do my thinking for me, cause when it comes to questioning things, that's ALWAYS where one should start to do so.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
Now don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say whether the embryos were viable or not. It can be seen that the embryos have to come from somewhere and how they are made "not viable" is a point of contention also. You can say they're "made" in a lab, but still, once a brain stem is formed, there is LIFE there. Human life. Don't tell me that you can't tell what it is at that stage of development. That is not the issue. It is human tissue, actual and whole. Just not fully formed. If that's the case (and I'm not saying that it is, mind you - just a hypothesis). . . creating life, just to destroy/kill it? I think Mal would have a BIG problem with that.
Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas
Well, I'm certainly not trying to put words in your mouth. The way you worded your response, it sounded like you were implying that scientists were going around ripping fetuses out of pregnant women and harvesting them like organ donors, and I was pointing out that such is simply not the case.
From my understanding of it, these embryos are generally obtained from fertility clinics, not from abortion clinics, and the fertility specialists have deemed them to not to be viable for implantation. Seems that out of every ten eggs fertilized, only about one is viable for implantation - the others, while becoming embryos, aren't ever going to develop into anything like a normal human being.
So in essence, "creating life just to destroy/kill it" is already being done. Now if you'd like to discuss doing away with fertility clinics and outlawing them, that's a whole different discussion...
Mike
I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.
- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen
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Very true, Kwicko, if that is, indeed, the case (Ya see? Us conservatives CAN have a calm discussion!! And even concede to well thought-out, unabusive posts). And no, I would not condone the closing of fertility clinics, but insist (as a private citizen) on them coming up with a better way of doing it. If they're going to create a human life, make sure the odds of it being viable are pretty darn good. That's my line of thinking, anyway. Maybe not realistic, but still . . .
A human life is a human life, no matter how you look at it. You take a human egg and a human sperm, your going to form a human. Not a cow or a frog. It doesn't matter what stage of development its in. Again, not a very popular train of thought, but it's the train I ride
And again, you're right. This is a different conversation entirely.
Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas
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Wash, I know your heart's in the right place, but you have to realize that the mere fertilization of an egg with a sperm doesn't give it a great chance of becoming a viable, functioning human under ANY circumstances. In the natural world, something like one out of three pregnancies ends badly, for baby and/or mother, and that's when they're really TRYING to do everything right.
Mike
I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.
- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen
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Agreed.
Not conceeding, mind you just agreeing.
Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas
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Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
Agreed.
Not conceeding, mind you
Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas
You, I like.
We *can* have a reasoned discussion about this. I'd *really* like to see some restrictions placed on embryonic stem cell research - not restrictions against doing such research, but rather on where they can get the ebryonic materials they're using. IF they're coming from fertility clinics, IF they're deemed by all involved to me unsuitable or non-viable for implantation, etc., THEN and ONLY THEN can you use those embryos for research - and only with signed consent of the clinic, the doctors, and most importantly, the egg and sperm donors.
We CAN find ways to do this morally. Hell, if we can "morally" execute prisoners and "morally" torture suspects, surely we can find a way to morally do embryonic stem cell research.
Mike
I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.
- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen
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Quote:Lizards have brain stems. Does that make them human?Agree with Kwicko. There are restrictions that can be placed on the source. But for some, even that wouldn't be enough.
once a brain stem is formed
But my understanding is that ESC are derived from blastocysts... which is well before any specific differentiation begins. which IS the point of ESC, innit? To get cells BEFORE they've differentiated?
Quote:
BLASTOCYST
The zygot continues to divide, creating an inner group of cells with an outer shell. This stage is called a blastocyst. The inner group of cells will become the embryo, while the outer group of cells will become the membranes that nourish and protect it. (Placenta, chord, and sac)
---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.
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Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
Now don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say whether the embryos were viable or not. It can be seen that the embryos have to come from somewhere and how they are made "not viable" is a point of contention also. You can say they're "made" in a lab, but still, once a brain stem is formed, there is LIFE there. Human life. Don't tell me that you can't tell what it is at that stage of development. That is not the issue. It is human tissue, actual and whole. Just not fully formed. If that's the case (and I'm not saying that it is, mind you - just a hypothesis). . . creating life, just to destroy/kill it? I think Mal would have a BIG problem with that.
They come from IVF treatments. The ones that couldn't be used, so would go straight in the bin. Potentially life saving research, chuck in the bin, what's the most moral choice?
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Lizards have brain stems. Does that make them human?
once a brain stem is formed
Note the difference I'm imposing here by stating HUMAN embryos. Not Lizard embryos.
I'll be completely and brutally honest and say I don't know much about the research, how the cells are harvested or at what stage they're harvested. But IF the more viable source for stem cell research is from adults (and I'm not saying that it is, it's only what I've heard), then that should be pursued more vigilantly than via embryos.
Two sides to every story, folks. We can discuss without getting mean-spirited and I thank Kwicko for being nice to the newebie. Compared to some of what I've seen in this section of the forums . . . wow. It can get fierce. I came to this site because I heard that Browncoats get along regardless of political views. Quite honestly . . . this section blows that theory to kingdom come
I keep thinking of Mal talking to River on the bridge of Serenity . . asking that if she's not human to shoot him now . . . gun clicks . . . "Or . . . we can talk more."
Don't know why I think of that when it comes to this section but oh well.
Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Lizards have brain stems. Does that make them human?Agree with Kwicko. There are restrictions that can be placed on the source. But for some, even that wouldn't be enough.
once a brain stem is formed
But my understanding is that ESC are derived from blastocysts... which is well before any specific differentiation begins. which IS the point of ESC, innit? To get cells BEFORE they've differentiated?Quote:
BLASTOCYST
The zygot continues to divide, creating an inner group of cells with an outer shell. This stage is called a blastocyst. The inner group of cells will become the embryo, while the outer group of cells will become the membranes that nourish and protect it. (Placenta, chord, and sac)
---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.
Thanks for the clarification, Signy.
I think that an awful lot of what gets tossed around in this debate is spurious information. People try to break it into 5-second sound bites that will stick in the minds of their listeners. Fact is, the vast majority of these materials are NOT coming from abortions or from abortion clinics. I'd say NONE are coming from those sources, but I can't say that with 100% certainty. What I can say is that MOST aren't coming from these sources.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
I'd say NONE are coming from those sources, but I can't say that with 100% certainty. What I can say is that MOST aren't coming from these sources.
They all come from unwanted embryos from IVF treatments. That's why I find the morality argument nonsense, it's the argument FOR destroying embryos, not against it.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Two sides to every story, folks. We can discuss without getting mean-spirited and I thank Kwicko for being nice to the newebie. Compared to some of what I've seen in this section of the forums . . . wow. It can get fierce. I came to this site because I heard that Browncoats get along regardless of political views. Quite honestly . . . this section blows that theory to kingdom come
Rip (and I can't help but call you that, since your screen name shows up in all caps, and I read it as "RipWash" rather than "RIPWash"), I'm being civil to you because you've never given me reason not to be. You've been nothing but civil here, and that's to be commended. I make a concerted effort to be nice, until it's time to NOT be nice. If you see me blow up on someone, you can bet your bottom dollar that we have history between us, and there's a very good reason I'm going off on them. :)
Some of the things I've been called here would make Caligula blush.
That's not saying I'm better than that, because I give as good as I get, and I have a tendency to respond in kind.
As for us all getting along because we're Browncoats... well, yes and no. We get along about as well as Mal and Jayne. Or Mal and Simon. Or Mal and Inara. Or Mal and... well, ANYONE! We tend to be a bit independent AND a bit pig-headed about it, so we definitely tend to escalate when our differences start showing!
Look around the other areas of the site, though, and you'll find a much different picture. You'll see AuRaptor and I actually being pleasant to each other now and again - something you're probably NEVER going to see in this section. But that's only because we disagree on almost everything political, but still love Firefly.
Mike
I can't run no more
with that lawless crowd
while the killers in high places
say their prayers out loud.
But they've summoned, they've summoned up
a thundercloud
and they're going to hear from me.
- Anthem, by Leonard Cohen
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"But IF the more viable source for stem cell research is from adults (and I'm not saying that it is, it's only what I've heard), then that should be pursued more vigilantly than via embryos."
MMMmmm ... then what you heard was wrong.
At this point there are three classes of stem cells:
1) embryonic, which have the potential to be anything
2) adult stem cells which can divide but do not turn into other cells and will never be what you need
3) embryonized adult stem cells which have had genes added to them (genetically modified) so that they look like they might be similar to embryonic stem cells, they are of unknown quality, potential, or limitations
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
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Agreed, Respond-in-Kind is the general policy here for a lotta folks, self included.
One reason some folk can't seem to get a reasonable discussion goin on round here is cause they never really brought one in the first place.
Oh, and for the record, I really, really, seriously don't have the competence to argue this issue, beyond stating my position on it and leaving at that - I tend to avoid trying to argue things I dunno nothin about as a general rule, so imma sit back and watch this one from here on out.
-F
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Neither pro nor con, but interesting nonetheless
http://www.stemcellresearchfacts.com/pros_cons.html
Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas
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More interesting info:
http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/basics/basics3.asp
Zoe: "Get it running again."
Mal: "Yeah"
Zoe: "So not running now"
Mal: "Not so much"
- Out of Gas
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Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
Okay . . . mandated was a poor choice of wording.
Let's say the Alliance broadcasted across the signal that they were going to allow any money taken in from the planets (core or otherwise) to be possibly used to destroy human embryos so stem cells could harvested.
What would Malcom Reynolds say to that?
Rip, you're confusing the issue still, going back to this incomplete proposition.
To make the comparable proposal, you would start like this, to include the most offensive source of ESCR, that of Partial Birth Abortions (aka Rotation Extraction Evacuation):
The Alliance was going to confiscate (tax money) funds to be used to pay for humans to be fully gestated, then born, then killed so stem cells could be 'harvested' from them and sold.
Start with that accurate beginning, and then see where Mal & Co will side.
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Quote:
Original lies posted by DobsonAlliancefan:
Rip, you're confusing the issue still, going back to this incomplete proposition.
To make the comparable proposal, you would start like this, to include the most offensive source of ESCR, that of Partial Birth Abortions (aka Rotation Extraction Evacuation):
The Alliance was going to confiscate (tax money) funds to be used to pay for humans to be fully gestated, then born, then killed so stem cells could be 'harvested' from them and sold.
Start with that accurate beginning, and then see where Mal & Co will side.
I imagine that they'd side against the fascists spreading lies and hate to further their agenda of a mad grab for power.
I.e. They'd side against you, AURaptor.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:Quote:
Originally posted by RIPWash:
Okay . . . mandated was a poor choice of wording.
Let's say the Alliance broadcasted across the signal that they were going to allow any money taken in from the planets (core or otherwise) to be possibly used to destroy human embryos so stem cells could harvested.
What would Malcom Reynolds say to that?
Rip, you're confusing the issue still, going back to this incomplete proposition.
To make the comparable proposal, you would start like this, to include the most offensive source of ESCR, that of Partial Birth Abortions (aka Rotation Extraction Evacuation):
The Alliance was going to confiscate (tax money) funds to be used to pay for humans to be fully gestated, then born, then killed so stem cells could be 'harvested' from them and sold.
Start with that accurate beginning, and then see where Mal & Co will side.
Where to start... So much go se in such a small post...
Cites, please? Can you find valid documentation of this EVER happening in this country (growing a fetus to full term, birthing it, then killing it and harvesting its stem cells)? You seem to think it's common, but at its height, PBA accounted for less than 0.6% of abortions performed. So growing fetuses to term solely for the purpose of killing them and harvesting their stem cells, even if it were EVER done, sure as hell wasn't ever going to be any kind of main source of ESCs.
Are you basing this on anything more valid than the voices in your head? Or are you just casting about, trying to invent the most offensive scenario you can think of, and then trying to throw that mud at the wall to see if it sticks. Or did Rush tell you this? You have to remember, Rush is an ENTERTAINER, not a reporter.
Wasn't partial-birth abortion outlawed? If so, how would anyone come by cells obtained in such a way, and if they COULD get them, wouldn't that be a felony?
Mike
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Indeed. Also, since ESCs are by definition ones that come from embryos, wouldn't that make cells harvested from babies more like adult stem cells, since they'd be already differentiated? So isn't DobsonAllianceFan here really arguing for the abolition of ADULT stem cell research, because they come from people already born...
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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