Dollhouse: Stage Fright - we get to hear Echo wail like she's on American Idol.
POSTED BY: Haken
UPDATED: Friday, March 6, 2009 14:37
VIEWED: 8723
PAGE 3 of 6
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Originally posted by ecgordon:
s has to work within the parameters of the network's notes and suggestions. If he doesn't he wouldn't be able to do the show at all.
As I indicated in my own post, I kinda expected the hand of Fox behind some of these decisions. And it's their right to do so, of course. As it is mine to say I don't like such meddling.
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I've said this several times over the years concerning other shows, but I guess I have to say it again. I think that the fans are sometimes as harsh on a show as the networks are. Everyone wants a payoff right out of the gate, not enough people have enough patience to let things develop.
For one, I say fans, more so than most other folks, perhaps, understand how critical the first few episodes are. If we all knew Joss had been given a carte blanche to make whatever he wants, for as long as he wants, I bet you'd see a lot more relaxes reactions. Also, don't be confusing 'concerned' with harsh. Fans, like yours truly, tend to take every possible fault, put it under a magnifying glass, and extensively voice said concern, because they are, well, concerned. :) That's not the same as being negative.
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The more you bad mouth the show the fewer people will be inclined to check it out in the coming weeks. The rumors of a premature cancellation will be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
You credit me with an overabundance of power. Wish I had it, really, and Firefly would never have been cancelled, I assure you. :)
I'm also a firm believer in honesty. And, conversely, have never been one to just cheer on a show just to support Joss. And I doubt he'd want us to, either. Besides, wouldn't make much of a difference, either. It would be like everyone not saying the Emperor has no clothes on, which might be the nice thing to do, but the execs at Fox would confront him with that harsh reality regardless. You know how Fox Mulder (no pun intended) always says: "The truth is out there."? Well, it is. And truth is that this week's episode was weaker than the previous two. I can't influence that. All I can do is say that it has me worried some. I want at least 14 episodes, so there'll be enough material for a DVD/Blu-Ray, which I'll buy promptly.
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"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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Originally posted by SergeantX:
You know, I was kind of thinking that too. But, that's how they chose to interpret it. It's possible, perhaps even likely, that Echo recognized her friend from the Dollhouse and was honestly more interested in saving her protecting the diva.
Good point. One doesn't preclude the other, though. I'm fair certain Echo pulled a wee reverse-psychology on the Diva. If, for no other reason, than that I believe it's a necessary plot element: the whole "Exceeding one's programming" thingy, as Data would call it. Echo recognizing her Dollhouse mate is definitely possible, and indeed even likely, and a continuation of another vital theme: that you can never really wipe a slate clean.
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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1. Kudos for the Cherry 2000 ref.
2. Fox exerts no real creative influence. As long as you give them man bites shark, that's all they care about.
3. Dollhouse is headed for a shallow watery grave, alas, but it's not our fault. I think if anything, people who want to save the show should post on Fox's own boards weakpoints in the show that they should correct.
4. That group is 3 is ceasing to include me. Sorry.
The show suffers from a lot of problems it doesn't know it has:
5. The Borodins are an offensive stereotype. I know someone who gave up on the show at that point at they weren't Russian.
6. Echo and Sierra aren't carrying the roles. This was a very ambitious project, play a different character every week. It imho failed. It's not entirely the girls, it's also the writers. To create a very real character. You should be mourning the death of the character at the end of the ep, but you're not.
7. The thing with the FBI is still poorly done, so far I'm only convinced that the guy is a moron.
8. The major major flaw is using these tired storylines, without any sort of major twist to them.
9. We still don't have a lot of definition for most of the characters, people can't even remember their names.
10. Joss' personal cliches are eating holes in the show. Female characters are never strong and independent, but always need a male shoulder to lie on, they're never fully feminine, but always just a little bit butch, and there's an air of PC I find irritating.
To use a Joss line, the subtext here is rapidly becoming the text. People aren't wrong about their above readings, imho, that's just not all that complicated. An active isn't good for very long, she tells us in the first ep that you can't wipe a slate clean, eventually she'll become a composite of these characters, which would be more interesting if they were different from one another.
What I'm watching here is basically quantum leap, not just because this was a QL ep., but also thematically. It's losing its LFN element, or its fading away.
I don't know what can save the show, not sure it should be, I'm not a fan of tv, I don't even have on. But if someone did want to save it, some critiquing of weakpoints on the Fox board might help.
Mostly what I sense is Joss' ego. I think he needs other people on board to add depth to the show. Faith, Giles, Spike, Willow were brilliant characters, River was sheer brilliance.
It's characters like River Tam and Adrian Monk that make it impossible for me to watch Walter on Fringe. Having been there, I can tell you the first two there are really on target. I think Sarah Connor and Cameron come close.
So far, for me though, dollhouse is fluff with some dangling mystery threads.
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Originally posted by dreamtrove:
2. Fox exerts no real creative influence. As long as you give them man bites shark, that's all they care about.
Or "Girl bites shark," rather, as you so astutely observed. :)
Still, I was kinda hoping FOX is exerting a lot of creative influence, cuz I'm so much more comfortable with dissing them than I am with entertaining the thought that the writers (= Joss) might be the cause.
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6. Echo and Sierra aren't carrying the roles. This was a very ambitious project, play a different character every week. It imho failed. It's not entirely the girls, it's also the writers. To create a very real character. You should be mourning the death of the character at the end of the ep, but you're not.
I've pretty much given up on Sierra (sorry). Eliza I still believe in. Especially because her first role as professional negotiator was so well done. Echo had undergone a true Verwandlung there: her half-nerdy mannerisms (the way she was counting down with her fingers and such), the tone of her voice, her entire attitude, it was so radically different from the standard Echo, that I was rather impressed. But in "Stage Fright" Eliza acted essentially not much different from the way she did in "The Target." Of course, like you say, to write, and play, a real and different character each time is pretty difficult. And maybe it can't be done, even.
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7. The thing with the FBI is still poorly done, so far I'm only convinced that the guy is a moron.
Effectively, the guy is still acting out his stubborn BSG 'Helo' persona (talk about never really being able to wipe a slate clean!). Though likeable, perhaps, he's very much a walking cliche, too.
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9. We still don't have a lot of definition for most of the characters, people can't even remember their names.
Sad, but true. Now, I like Dr. Saunders, for instance, but still had to pay the wiki a quick visit to recall she's called Claire. So, why is that? Good question. Maybe because the Dollhouse folks are jerks? (Apart from Dr. Saunders, who strikes me as a rather gentle person). Or because the bunch is too stereotype? Both DeWitt and the security dude in his very fine suit are 'Dr. Evil' type characatures, really. And Topher, while perhaps a notch above the other two, is still everything from being likeable. So, essentially, it all comes down to Echo and Boyd (and we didn't see much of the latter, either, last ep). So, it's basically just Eliza for now. And she can't carry the entire show alone.
Also, the devil is in the details. Remember how 'all blue' on the brain-scan monitors meant fear? Well, they were on 'all blue' again this ep. No meaning this time; just an oops. Like Topher's chess board in the first two episodes. I know, the chess thingy is a bit of a recurring pet peeve of mine (they really botched that in TSCC too), but they had set up absurd positions (pawns on row 1 or 8, for example). Well, at least someone woke up someone about that, as they straightened it out this ep. Only the other day I read someone found a possible continuation error in Firefly, after all these years! I mean, it's obvious Dollhouse has not been given the same amount of consideration, detail wise. What that means, you tell me; but it can't be for the better.
--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam
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I wanna see more Dr. Horrible.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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The main point I was trying to make is that we should have patience enough to get past these first few episodes where we know FOX exerted their influence in order to get to the ones that show more of Joss' original intentions for the show.
Since all thirteen (or maybe just twelve?) episodes have been filmed it is too late to tell FOX what changes we would like to see. If it gets renewed for any more then that would be an option.
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ASARIAN
Or "Girl bites shark," rather, as you so astutely observed. :)
Girls in bikinis wrestle sharks for the chance for one of them to be stranded on a desert island with 20 young men from whom she will choose a mate by trying every one of them out, but only after they prove themselves by monkeybarring across a swamp full of crocodiles on a ropeladder which has just been set on fire so the fire burns behind them...
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Still, I was kinda hoping FOX is exerting a lot of creative influence, cuz I'm so much more comfortable with dissing them than I am with entertaining the thought that the writers (= Joss) might be the cause.
And yet, my gut tells me. The pitfalls of murdoch, as described above, aren't what I'm seeing, it's the pitfalls of Joss. Everyone is a team, and when they lose their team, there is a problem. Exhibit A) Ridley Scott, Exhibit B) George Lucas...
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I've pretty much given up on Sierra (sorry). Eliza I still believe in. Especially because her first role as professional negotiator was so well done. Echo had undergone a true Verwandlung there: her half-nerdy mannerisms (the way she was counting down with her fingers and such), the tone of her voice, her entire attitude, it was so radically different from the standard Echo, that I was rather impressed. But in "Stage Fright" Eliza acted essentially not much different from the way she did in "The Target." Of course, like you say, to write, and play, a real and different character each time is pretty difficult. And maybe it can't be done, even.
Eliza lost me on the negotiator. It was the amount of makeover that was require, the glasses, contrived. This is standard hollywood cover for an actor who can't make the radical shift needed to carry the role. When no makeup or wardrobe is used to show a change of character, and it's completely believable, you never even pause, that's first class talent. That's Summer as Cameron, or River.
Eliza doesn't suck. She's talented, and she's hot. But the problem comes from the role created, a total personality change every ep. That requires a total mastery of talent. Playing the staff of dollhouse? That doesn't require a lot of talent. Amy is just imho a flat out better actress, and she's in a role that really doesn't require it. I think he had trouble getting her.
If I were Joss, and who I knew I could get was Eliza, and Alan, and sometimes Amy, the show I would have made would be Faith, the vampire slayer. People love the character, and I think Joss had already written a storyline for it, the show was canned when Eliza took the Tru Calling role.
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Effectively, the guy is still acting out his stubborn BSG 'Helo' persona (talk about never really being able to wipe a slate clean!). Though likeable, perhaps, he's very much a walking cliche, too.
You don't say, to say nothing of his doubting thomases or his stereotypical assailants
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9. We still don't have a lot of definition for most of the characters, people can't even remember their names.
Sad, but true. Now, I like Dr. Saunders, for instance, but still had to pay the wiki a quick visit to recall she's called Claire.
Yeah, I would have had to also, Claire, huh. Too many Claires at one time, I suppose can't be helped, except when you know your audience is already watching a show whose main character is named Claire, I'll let it slide.
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So, why is that? Good question.
With a sad and short answer: Writing.
A lot of the art of writing is a series of mechanical skills that all writers learn. It's why we have all these books and go to all these workshops, it's to learn little tricks like "how to get instant character recognition" and "how to hook the audience on page one" and so many other things. Joss can write, we all know this, but we also know that, or we hope so :), but there's a shortage of skill set. It's not a clever plot device, it's bad writing. We see scenes between characters, we should not be able to leave those scenes wit
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Let's face it, Dollhouse is no Firefly.
Ok, Firefly was pure flawless gold.
It was a must see show every Friday night. I simply could not miss an episode. If I wasn't home I'd tape it.
Also I read something about Fox being more casual on the ratings issue. We will probably see a second season of Dollhouse.
I never thought I'd say this but: I really don't care if Dollhouse continues.
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I'm going to bury this one and stop critiquing dollhouse. There's not a lot to critique.
Dollhouse is Quantum Leap. A lot of people liked QL, probably a lot of people here, it's fine for what it is. It's not my sort of thing, and it's definitely not Firefly, but I guess we have to stop assuming it's trying to be. It is what it is, for those people who like it, enjoy. For Joss' sake I hope it does well, for our sake, I hope that if he earns some creds for it that he uses that to make something else revolutionary some day. This show is not that show, but no one said it had to be. I just made an assumption that it was going to be, and upon reflection I have no idea why I made that assumption.
On one side, Quantum Leap is social commentary with no strings attached, no need to revisit the idea later, but in its core I think it's lifestyle tourism. Here's an hour in the life of a lifestyle set.
So, best thing for dollhouse is probably not what we'd want, but maybe Echo as a member of a gang, an underground club scene, an islamic terrorist, a communist party oligarch, etc.
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Singate: You know, Kaylee was originally supposed to have oriental ancestry? You may be right about Sierra if that's the vibe you're getting.
Joss said that it's episode six that's the doozie, and if that's true, then I'm sticking around at least until then.
This episode takes the music industry to an unexpected place, and the confrontation therapy bit was pretty intense, in addition to all the "who was Echo really doing that for?" questions.
I have to agree with everyone, not as good as the Target. But does that technically matter? two episodes doesn't yet a downward trend make. Maybe we're all a little too tense and worried, so we're immediately concerned we may be facing the worst case scenario?
I say give it time. Not all episodes have to be brilliant. The Train Job, Shindig, and Safe didn't necessarily capture any audiences when they ran, but they had at least some moments, and look at what we got later. Hopefully Dollhouse will last long enough that we can get to that point as well, and if Dollhouse does well, Joss does well, and can maybe start thinking about Firefly and Serenity again.
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