Why I Hate Capitalism

POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, November 22, 2015 09:25
VIEWED: 20587
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SIGNYM

Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:22 PM

Peanut co. owner refuses to testify at hearing

Quote:
In mid-January after the national outbreak was tied to his company Parnell told Food and Drug Administration officials that his workers "desperately at least need to turn the raw peanuts on our floor into money."

"What is virtually unheard of is for an entity to disregard those results and place potentially contaminated products into the stream of commerce," Deibel said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090211/ap_on_go_co/salmonella_outbreak

Meanwhile....
Bankers vow to work for financial system reform
Quote:
Taxpayers are furious with big banks that benefited from the federal bailout designed to get credit moving again, but which also spent lavishly on executive bonuses, company retreats and office redecorating.

Merril Lynch Planned Secret Bonuses
Quote:
Merrill Lynch secretly moved up the planned date to allocate bonuses and then richly rewarded their failed executives," Cuomo stated.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/merrill_lynch_bonuses

The wife of accused Wall Street swindler Bernard Madoff pulled $15 million out of a brokerage account only days before her husband was arrested

Pa. judges accused of jailing kids for cash
Quote:
Prosecutors say Luzerne County Judges Mark Ciavarella and Michael Conahan took $2.6 million in payoffs to put juvenile offenders in lockups run by PA Child Care LLC and a sister company, Western PA Child Care LLC. The judges were charged on Jan. 26 and removed from the bench by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court shortly afterward.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090211/ap_on_re_us/courthouse_kickbacks

If you have a system that is based on greed, that deems the greediest person to tbe the most successful, it is surprising that you develop a top echelon of the boundlessly, relentlessly greedy? Doesn't corruption naturally follow?
---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:55 PM

This has zero to do w/ Capitalism, silly.

You got an amoral CEO, Banks which were given $$ by a 'Czar' that had no control over how the $$ was spent, Cuomo isn't anyone to talk about what happens on Wall Street, Madoff was crooked from the get go, and dirty judges.

Greed is a HUMAN failure, and can no way, what so ever be attributed only to capitalism.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Greed is a HUMAN failure

Yes, and Capitalism (unregulated) facilitates it. Yes, I agree.

The laughing Chrisisall

SIGNYM

Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:15 PM

Rapo... capitalism is NOT based on greed?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

WHODIED

Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:39 PM

Capitalism definitely rewards greed, it's the carrot. For those who aren't that hungry, we also have the stick: fear.

EXPAND OR DIE, PEOPLE! THOSE WHO DON'T MAKE MORE WILL MAKE LESS!

--WhoDied

_______________________

Yeah, we're mostly just giving each
other significant glances and
laughing incessantly.

KIRKULES

Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:47 PM

The thing I hate most about our Capitalist system is that we don't enforce the laws and regulation that already exist. Rule of law is the foundation of a good Capitalist system. Not enforcing bad laws leads to arbitrary enforcement and causes them to remain on the books long after society has deemed them useless. Not enforcing good laws leads to lack of respect for the system and the abuses we've seen lately.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
Rule of law is the foundation of a good Capitalist system.

And it CAN be a good system. Streamlining existing laws might be a good idea.

The laughing Chrisisall

CITIZEN

Wednesday, February 11, 2009 11:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Greed is a HUMAN failure, and can no way, what so ever be attributed only to capitalism.

Communism fails because it empowers certain human failings. Your argument transposed would mean the failures of communist societies are not failures of communism. If Capitalism as a system promotes human failings that then lead to undermine it, it's hard to see how that can't be a systemic failure of capitalism.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, February 11, 2009 11:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
If Capitalism as a system promotes human failings that then lead to undermine it, it's hard to see how that can't be a systemic failure of capitalism.

*sigh*
Logic.
That will get you nowhere, Cit.

Final word: Take what works in Capitalism, leave what doesn't, and mix it with the best from other styles, er, I mean socio-economic systems.

The Jeet Kune Do Chrisisall

SIGNYM

Thursday, February 12, 2009 12:18 AM

I head an interesting discusison today. It had to do with what motivates peeps to work. Wall Street says... "but we HAVE to dole out the big bonuses because how else will we attract executives?"

Funny thing... the kind of person they attract is the greedy bastard who is working ONLY for the big bucks. If you simply want to do a good job for decent pay, you don't fit the Wall Street culture! If they paid their executives LESS, they might wind up with a better type of executive (i.e. one not bent on robbing everybody blind and taking unrealistic risks with other peeps' money).

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

KWICKO

Thursday, February 12, 2009 1:25 AM

C'mon, Siggy - you'll never get rich with that mindset!

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 12, 2009 1:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
If they paid their executives LESS, they might wind up with a better type of executive

EXACTLY!!!
Not happy with 100 thou a year, eff U. Go find a better job, b***h.
I'm sure there's competent peeps out there that have a thing for the biz that would do it just fine.

The laughing Chrisisall

DREAMTROVE

Thursday, February 12, 2009 2:54 AM

Sig, the banks are capitalist institutions. The peanut thing is not, it's just free enterprise, but we've seen that China has this same problem in spades, as did the soviet union.

But capital in capitalism refers capital, as in commodities, mineral wealth and currency. I agree, it's a sucky system. Still a lot better than socialism, but it's really a hobson's choice.

Free market enterprises way predate capitalism though. The two aren't the same. China is engaged in a lot of free market enterprise.

imho

RUE

Thursday, February 12, 2009 3:00 AM

And then there is free software - free as in freedom, not beer - which, as I understand, you are using this very day. There ARE other ways of doing things !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 1:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Rapo... capitalism is NOT based on greed?

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

No

Define " greed " , please.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 1:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Greed is a HUMAN failure
Yes, and Capitalism (unregulated) facilitates it. Yes, I agree.

The laughing Chrisisall

Key word " unregulated ". The peanut butter facility was regulated, and the dirt bag CEO still chose not to do the right thing. Can't blame capitalism for that.

Human failings existed long , LONG before the concept of capitalism came about. It's silly to sugguset it facilitates that which was around so very long prior to its existence.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

SIGNYM

Thursday, February 12, 2009 2:19 PM

Quote:
Can't blame capitalism for that.

Of course I can. And I do.

If you were to read the article, you'd find that the company owner was all about turning those peanuts on the floor into money. That was his big concern, and his ONLY concern. Because companies that make high profits get to grab more market share and buy up other companies.

It's not that this guy was a "bad guy". It's that companies get no joy out of following the rules IF IT COSTS THEM MONEY because they will lose profits anf market share. Because companies that lie, cheat, and steal WILL out-compete companies that don't. Because in the end what really counts... under captailism... is survival of the most brutal and the most rapacious.

It has nothing to do with human nature. You could be the nicest guy in the world. Pay your workers a living wage, take that extra buck and reduce pollution, get involved in your community.... and you'll eventually be overwhelmed by the most noxious companies around. That's capitalism!

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

GEEZER

Thursday, February 12, 2009 4:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
If you have a system that is based on greed, that deems the greediest person to tbe the most successful, it is surprising that you develop a top echelon of the boundlessly, relentlessly greedy? Doesn't corruption naturally follow?

Explain Ben & Jerry's, then. They're capitalists.

Quote:
Capitalism and the wealth it produces do not create opportunity for everyone equally. We recognize that the gap between the rich and the poor is wider than at anytime since the 1920's.We strive to create economic opportunities for those who have been denied them and to advance new models of economic justice that are sustainable and replicable.
By definition, the manufacturing of products creates waste. We strive to minimize our negative impact on the environment.
The growing of food is overly reliant on the use of toxic chemicals and other methods that are unsustainable. We support sustainable and safe methods of food production that reduce environmental degradation, maintain the productivity of the land over time, and support the economic viability of family farms and rural communities.
We seek and support nonviolent ways to achieve peace and justice. We believe government resources are more productively used in meeting human needs than in building and maintaining weapons systems.
We strive to show a deep respect for human beings inside and outside our company and for the communities in which they live.

http://www.benjerry.com/our_company/our_mission/

"Keep the Shiny side up"

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Thursday, February 12, 2009 5:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Sig, the banks are capitalist institutions. The peanut thing is not, it's just free enterprise,

Don't be stupid. Free enterprise is the basis of all capitalism.

CITIZEN

Thursday, February 12, 2009 5:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Don't be stupid. Free enterprise is the basis of all capitalism.

Actually he's right. Free enterprise isn't exclusive to capitalism. There's free enterprise in mercantilism, for instance. The major quantifying difference of capitalism is that it is focused on Capital, hence the name.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

RUE

Thursday, February 12, 2009 5:50 PM

"Explain Ben & Jerry's, then. They're capitalists.
Quote: 'Capitalism and the wealth it produces do not create opportunity for everyone equally.'"

Hmmm - yes. They are capitalists who actually agree that capitalism has the very flaws SignyM was mentioning. But, I suppose since they are capitalists, we needn't credit their very words with much meaning.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 5:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Can't blame capitalism for that.
Of course I can. And I do.

No, this guy really was a " bad guy" . Because he put the future of his plant and those who worked there at risk by KNOWINGLY shipping tainted product. That's not merely poor management, but negligence on a pathological level ! It'd be like giving a loaded gun to a toddler and saying.... " as long as he stays alive, we're ok ! "

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 5:56 PM

Why should capitalism divi up the wealth equally when the risk isn't equally divided up either ? Those who start a business put far more into it and risk more than those who simply show up and work 9-5.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CITIZEN

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
No, this guy really was a " bad guy" . Because he put the future of his plant and those who worked there at risk by KNOWINGLY shipping tainted product. That's not merely poor management, but negligence on a pathological level !

Depends what is meant by bad. Bad as in what he did is wrong, then yeah. Bad as in what he did is particularly exceptional, then no. I'd say most CEO's make those sorts of decisions. The 'formula' referred to in Fight Club, although part of a work of fiction, in that instance isn't too far from the truth. At all sorts of times, companies make decisions not on what should be done, but on how much it'll cost. In fact that is the norm. If polluting the environment costs less than treating it and the fine for not doing so, most companies will dump the waste. It happens time and again. In fact finding a company, like ben and jerry's with a soul, who do make moral not capital decisions, is the exception.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
It'd be like giving a loaded gun to a toddler and saying.... " as long as he stays alive, we're ok ! "

I hear some people do that too.

CITIZEN

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Why should capitalism divi up the wealth equally when the risk isn't equally divided up either ? Those who start a business put far more into it and risk more than those who simply show up and work 9-5.

Indeed, but all too often the rewards for some far out weigh their risks and work. For instance the managers of the financial sector.

I would think that over rewarding some, would be just as damaging as not rewarding anyone. As the present economic conditions might attest...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

RUE

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:13 PM

"Because he put the future of his plant and those who worked there at risk by KNOWINGLY shipping tainted product."

B/c it probably wasn't the first time and he thought he could get away with it (again) - especially seeing as how the regulations and agencies are so toothless he didn't need to report the lab results AND the agencies have very little ability to shut the place down.

But that brings China to mind. First it was contaminated dog food, with measured protein content artifically boosted with toxic melamine. Then it was toys for little kids with lead paint. Then it was over-sulfated condroitin sulfate - boosted heparin which killed people. Then it was milk to which melamine had been added.

Did market forces find the problems ? NO. Just like with salmonella-contaminated peanuts, it was government agencies tracking illnesses and DEATHS that noticed. Did market forces fix the problems ? NO. In China, after a wave of scandals, officials simply jailed and shot the executives.

Capitalism is NEITHER self-policing NOR self-correcting.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Human failings existed long , LONG before the concept of capitalism came about. It's silly to sugguset it facilitates that which was around so very long prior to its existence.

And guns don't facilitate killing, because killings took place long before the gun was ever invented.
You really don't see the holes in your loony-toon logic, do you, AU?

The laughing Chrisisall

RUE

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:22 PM

"Why should capitalism divi up the wealth equally when the risk isn't equally divided up either ? Those who start a business put far more into it and risk more than those who simply show up and work 9-5."

So, Billy Gates did so much work and took so much risk he earned his multiple billions ? Is that why he's considered the patron saint of capitalism ?

At a cetain point you are more than compensated for any risk you took or any work you did. Let's take a look at Hewlett-Packard. Suppose you take a year off from your job to tinker in your garage. That's a year's worth of salary you've risked. Suppose you work night and day on your inventions. That's a year's worth of work you've risked. Suppose you borrow money. That's a loan's worth of risk. It seems that when you are compensated for those risks the balance sheet evens out and puts you on par with pretty much anyone else who does the work.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:25 PM

Just so I get this straight. When ever I post a work of fiction so as to make a point, it's a bad thing. But when YOU do it, it's perfectly O.K. and legitimate ?

Glad we've cleared that up.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:29 PM

"When ever I post a work of fiction so as to make a point ..."

To which work of fiction are you referring ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Why should capitalism divi up the wealth equally when the risk isn't equally divided up either ? Those who start a business put far more into it and risk more than those who simply show up and work 9-5."

So, Billy Gates did so much work and took so much risk he earned his multiple billions ? Is that why he's considered the patron saint of capitalism ?

At a cetain point you are more than compensated for any risk you took or any work you did. Let's take a look at Hewlett-Packard. Suppose you take a year off from your job to tinker in your garage. That's a year's worth of salary you've risked. Suppose you work night and day on your inventions. That's a year's worth of work you've risked. Suppose you borrow money. That's a loan's worth of risk. It seems that when you are compensated for those risks the balance sheet evens out and puts you on par with pretty much anyone else who does the work.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

A year ? How do you leave a job and only account for it costing you ONE year ? Might be that's how much time you took off, but you may also get fired from HP, and that ends up costing you far more than a year. While not at work, you're risking your house, your car, your marriage ( assuming you're married ) , your health..how the hell are you going to measure those things? Sorry, but you as final arbiter isn't exactly a reasonable and fair assessment of what 'risk' is. Also, the purpose of the risk isn't merely to come out even with what you put in, you're DOING all this so as to get a head. Staying right in the same spot, why risk anything if that's all you're gonna get back ?

You don't think things out too well, do you ?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:31 PM

To which work of fiction are you referring ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
To which work of fiction are you referring ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

It's called LIFE.

Try it sometime.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:34 PM

So, as usual, you don't actually have a point.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

KWICKO

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Greed is a HUMAN failure
Yes, and Capitalism (unregulated) facilitates it. Yes, I agree.

The laughing Chrisisall

Key word " unregulated ". The peanut butter facility was regulated, and the dirt bag CEO still chose not to do the right thing. Can't blame capitalism for that.

Human failings existed long , LONG before the concept of capitalism came about. It's silly to sugguset it facilitates that which was around so very long prior to its existence.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

This topic serves as a great example of why regulation is good, and why tort reform is a bad idea. Follow along; there may be abstract ideas here. Try to keep up.

Yes, this was a "regulated" plant in a "regulated" industry. How's that working out lately, since oversight has been cut off at the knees and people to enforce regulations have been stretched thin for years?

How it's working out is like this: More and more often, plant owners like this dirtbag decide to "unregulate" themselves, figuring they'll play the long odds. What's the worst that could happen, right? They figure, worst case scenario, a couple people MIGHT get a li'l sick - and if they do, they won't report it, or it won't get noticed as a pattern, and it won't get investigated, and if it does, it won't lead back to them. They don't count on anyone DYING, that's for sure.

Imagine how much more common this kind of behavior would be if the industry were deregulated. This wouldn't be the exception; it would be the norm.

Now, about tort reform. It seems that those who are most in favor of deregulation of ALL industry in this country are also most in favor of capping liabilitiesg and punitive damages at $100,000 maximum. So in a case like this, where *only* nine people died, there'd be a maximum lifetime payout of $900,000.00 And if you could make an extra million bucks or so shoving the bad product out the door, you're money ahead, even with the deaths.

Like I said, this case makes a good case for MORE regulation (or at least more enforcement of existing rules) and LESS tort reform. This dickhead should be sued out of his last pennny and any pennies he may ever earn in the future, and THEN he should be buried under the jail. If convicted, of course. And his breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day in jail should be peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, made with back-stock of his own product.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

SIGNYM

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:37 PM

Quote:
No, this guy really was a " bad guy" . Because he put the future of his plant and those who worked there at risk by KNOWINGLY shipping tainted product

Pretty much like the banks loaned money on terms the borrowers couldn't afford and then created leveraged products which they sold for far more money than they were worth???

NAAAAAHHHHH....

No capitalist would be that stupid!

Geezer: Ben&Jerry's versus Walmart. That's capitalism.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

KWICKO

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
To which work of fiction are you referring ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

It's called LIFE.

Try it sometime.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

Your life is a work of fiction?

That explains an awful lot...

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

RUE

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:41 PM

But to get back to an actual discussion (you should try it some time Rap) - whether you take a year off or two, whether you lose your job or keep it, whether you lose your home or not - those risks are QUANTIFIABLE and therefore limited. And therefore your compensation for those risks should be quantified - and limited.

As to marriage and health - you know, the person could be such an jerk that the marriage wouldn't have lasted anyway. Or they could have had such unhealthy habits they would have lost their health no matter what.

I don't know of ANY capitalist current or historical who invested their health into a company. OTOH I know - personally - many people who have lost their health dues to dangerous jobs, bad products, and faulty services that SOMEBODY made a profit selling.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

KWICKO

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
No, this guy really was a " bad guy" . Because he put the future of his plant and those who worked there at risk by KNOWINGLY shipping tainted product
Pretty much like the banks loaned money on terms the borrowers couldn't afford and then created leveraged products which they sold for far more money than they were worth???

NAAAAAHHHHH....

No capitalist would be that stupid!

Geezer: Ben&Jerry's versus Walmart. That's capitalism.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

Sig, that's not fair - everybody knows that Barney Frank FORCED those bankers to make those loans!

Right?

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

KWICKO

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:45 PM

But Rue, didn't you see where AuRetard already ruled that you aren't qualified to be the final arbiter of risk? Apparently, you aren't, but he IS! Because, y'know, AuRetard deals only in "Rap Facts".

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

RUE

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:53 PM

Hey, that's "Rap facts" TM to YOU, sir !

One of these days it'll be in the common parlance and it'll be a money maker, that's for sure. Gotta' make sure my rights to a profit are protected for all my risk !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

CITIZEN

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
"Rap Facts"

Rap Facts ™

Surely that's trademarked.

CITIZEN

Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Just so I get this straight. When ever I post a work of fiction so as to make a point, it's a bad thing. But when YOU do it, it's perfectly O.K. and legitimate ?

Glad we've cleared that up.

No, I used a work of fiction for an allegory to better illustrate what I was talking about. And, I might add, clearly pointed out that it was a work of fiction and I wasn't using it to prove anything. You on the other hand, pointed to a work of fiction and said "see, proof!!"

There's a world of difference, if you need help seeing it, tell me and I'll break the crayons out.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Human failings existed long , LONG before the concept of capitalism came about. It's silly to sugguset it facilitates that which was around so very long prior to its existence.

Quote:
And guns don't facilitate killing, because killings took place long before the gun was ever invented.
You really don't see the holes in your loony-toon logic, do you, AU?

I was wondering AU, did you avoid commenting on this simply because you do not understand what the word "facilitate" means?

The laughing Chrisisall

MALBADINLATIN

Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
This has zero to do w/ Capitalism, silly.

You got an amoral CEO, Banks which were given $$ by a 'Czar' that had no control over how the $$ was spent, Cuomo isn't anyone to talk about what happens on Wall Street, Madoff was crooked from the get go, and dirty judges.

Greed is a HUMAN failure, and can no way, what so ever be attributed only to capitalism.

For the love of God...I agree with Raptor from one end of his post to the other...without and any "but"s. In fact...governmental control of areas in societies where greed usualy thrives is ultimatly counterproductive. Greed is only a symptom of corruption which in turn has it's roots in our unavoidably unchangeable human instinct. If all humans were to abandon it and just be all "Jesus nice" to each other...natural selection would select us for downsizing or extinction. Life isn't always easy and backed up by noble law enforcenment...that's the fairy tale Americans lived from 1948-1998.

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
This has zero to do w/ Capitalism, silly.

For the love of God...I agree with Raptor

Capitalism is the gun provided to the small child.

The laughing Chrisisall

RUE

Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:39 PM

"Greed is only a symptom of corruption which in turn has it's roots in our unavoidably unchangeable human instinct."

Every time I see a 'human nature' (or instinct) notion, I think the person doesn't have an argument - just an opinion. And that opinion is usually some variant of social Darwinism.

So: Is it human nature to die for another ? Is it human nature to take pleasure in cooperating ? Is it human nature to invent without the lure of greed ? Is it human nature to love ? Is it human nature to value things that aren't economic ? Is it human nature to sacrifice time, effort and resources to raise children without recompense ? All of these are historically and scientifically proven things.

And how does that stack up against your opinion of humanity as individualistic greedy grubbing economic machines blind to everything else ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Thursday, February 12, 2009 8:24 PM

Rapo's remark about captialism is very much like the remarks I hear about relgion: If it wasn't for the greed/ corruption/ narrow-mindedness/ bigotry/ fill-in-the-failing-of-the-month the system would be just fine!

Some peeps make a religion out of religion. Others make a religion out of capitalism.

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

GEEZER

Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Explain Ben & Jerry's, then. They're capitalists.
Quote: 'Capitalism and the wealth it produces do not create opportunity for everyone equally.'"

Hmmm - yes. They are capitalists who actually agree that capitalism has the very flaws SignyM was mentioning.

Well, they are apparently capitalists who aren't greedy, which sort'a busts SignyM's whole "All Capitalists are Greedy" schtick. I could probably find an example of this non-greedy type of capitalist for every Peanut Corporation of America version SignyM can find. A lot of capitalists, including many successful capitalists, aren't greedy.

And greed isn't exclusive to the capitalist economic system either. Socialist and Communist factory managers have a history of forcing workers to produce shoddy and often unusable or dangerous goods so they can meet production quotas which have nothing to do with demand. They do this to get benefits and perks not available to their workers. In other words, they're greedy.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:

I could probably find an example of this non-greedy type of capitalist for every Peanut Corporation of America version SignyM can find. A lot of capitalists, including many successful capitalists, aren't greedy.

And greed isn't exclusive to the capitalist economic system either. Socialist and Communist factory managers have a history of forcing workers to produce shoddy and often unusable or dangerous goods so they can meet production quotas which have nothing to do with demand. They do this to get benefits and perks not available to their workers. In other words, they're greedy.

I don't disagree with any particular part of this.

The laughing Chrisisall

KWICKO

Thursday, February 12, 2009 9:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
"Rap Facts"

Rap Facts ™

Surely that's trademarked.

RapFacts™ are an awful lot like Stephen Colbert's "truthiness" - they sound like they OUGHT to be true, but they just aren't.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:21 PM

Bah, it's cause crime pays, if you scale it big enough.

Mikey nailed it square, but lemme take it a step further - IF they do get nailed, what's gonna happen but a puny fine that's often less of a tenth of the profits made by breaking the law ?

The Chinese on the other hand, don't play that game.

Somewhere between those two extremes is a more viable solution - my reccommendation is a full and complete accounting with audit, follwed up by a fine of three times any profit made by violation of the law, and a punitive 5% penalty on ALL FURTHER PROFITS, rolled into a fund managed for the assistance and repayment of those harmed by the violation.

That'd put a stop to this shit quick enough.

As for greed/excesses, we need to steal a concept from our european friends, I forget what country it was, but someone mentioned a partical country over there had this concept of "Enough Stuff".

We should steal it and integrate it here.

-Frem

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So, as usual, you don't actually have a point.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Far more than you, obviously.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
No, this guy really was a " bad guy" . Because he put the future of his plant and those who worked there at risk by KNOWINGLY shipping tainted product
Pretty much like the banks loaned money on terms the borrowers couldn't afford and then created leveraged products which they sold for far more money than they were worth???

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

Banks were forced to loan money out to folks , by the Federal Gov't, then Fannie / Freddie bought up those bad accounts, knowing Uncle Sam would back them up.

We've been over this before. Not gonna repeat myself.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Far more than you, obviously.
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Human failings existed long , LONG before the concept of capitalism came about. It's silly to sugguset it facilitates that which was around so very long prior to its existence.

Originally slapped-down by Chrisisall:

And guns don't facilitate killing, because killings took place long before the gun was ever invented.

You really don't see the holes in your loony-toon logic, do you, AU?

I was wondering AU, did you avoid commenting on this simply because you do not understand what the word "facilitate" means?

The repeating Chrisisall

KWICKO

Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by MalBadInLatin:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
This has zero to do w/ Capitalism, silly.

For the love of God...I agree with Raptor

Capitalism is the gun provided to the small child.

The laughing Chrisisall

But only at a competitive price! Wal-Mart. Always Low Prices On Guns. Always.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Wal-Mart. Always Low Prices On Guns. Always.

LOL!!!!!

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

You really don't see the holes in your loony-toon logic, do you, AU?

I was wondering AU, did you avoid commenting on this simply because you do not understand what the word "facilitate" means?

The repeating Chrisisall

What holes ? You make my case for me, Thanks!

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 10:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
[
Capitalism is the gun provided to the small child.

The laughing Chrisisall

And after decades of GOVERNMENT SCHOOLING, the nation has been dumbed down to the level of a child, needing it's GREAT FATHER ( or MOTHER ) - Government, to tell us how much to work, how much we can earn, when to sleep, to tie our shoes, what to buy........

Individuality and adaptive thinking have been bred out of our society, and we're left to rely on the Imperial Federal Gov't to survive.

E.g. - New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

What holes ? You make my case for me, Thanks!

Human failings existed long , LONG before the concept of capitalism came about. It's silly to sugguset it facilitates that which was around so very long prior to its existence.

You state that a tool cannot be used for something since the need or use for such a tool predates it's invention; that, sir, is plainly and obviously illogical.

But then, you are a tool yourself, now aren't you?

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

What holes ? You make my case for me, Thanks!

Human failings existed long , LONG before the concept of capitalism came about. It's silly to sugguset it facilitates that which was around so very long prior to its existence.

You state that a tool cannot be used for something since the need or use for such a tool predates it's invention; that, sir, is plainly and obviously illogical.

The laughing Chrisisall

Again w/ the lies and distortions. Why ? I NEVER said any such thing as you portray. And I know you know this, you're just playing the role of court jester, but I'll say it anyways.

You cannot BLAME capitalism for the ill deeds of man. I never said it couldn't be USED for those ill deeds.
Just like a gun. You made my case for me.

It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think.

Boy, you got rocks in your head or what ?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I never said it couldn't be USED for those ill deeds.

"It's silly to sugguset it facilitates that which was around so very long prior to its existence."
That's what you are saying RIGHT HERE, LOL!!!

Go back to school, 'cause you need a PhD, Spindoctor!

The laughing Chrisisall

KWICKO

Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:27 PM

Quote:

Somewhere between those two extremes is a more viable solution - my reccommendation is a full and complete accounting with audit, follwed up by a fine of three times any profit made by violation of the law...

I'm not sure if it still stands, but there WAS a law that allowed this in copyright-infringement cases, specifically targeting knock-off or counterfeit clothing (faux Nike t-shirts and the like). It awarded triple damages if you were convicted; in other words, three times the profits you made illegally.

'Course, it likely applies only to U.S. counterfeiters, and not to the Chinese...

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I never said it couldn't be USED for those ill deeds.

"It's silly to sugguset it facilitates that which was around so very long prior to its existence."
That's what you are saying RIGHT HERE, LOL!!!

Go back to school, 'cause you need a PhD, Spindoctor!

The laughing Chrisisall

You should read past the first word in the definition, dumb ass.

Facilitate:To make easy or easier:

facilitate
Verb
[-tating, -tated] to make easier the progress of:

The task of doing ill existed long before concepts of capitalism or socialism were dreamt up.

You're BLAMING evil on capitalism. Evil evil existed long before, which is where you're twisting the issue.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

You cannot BLAME capitalism for the ill deeds of man.

And I wasn't saying this anyway.

And you wonder why we poke at you, angry monkey.

The laughing Chrisisall

KWICKO

Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
No, this guy really was a " bad guy" . Because he put the future of his plant and those who worked there at risk by KNOWINGLY shipping tainted product
Pretty much like the banks loaned money on terms the borrowers couldn't afford and then created leveraged products which they sold for far more money than they were worth???

---------------------------------
It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine.

Banks were forced to loan money out to folks , by the Federal Gov't, then Fannie / Freddie bought up those bad accounts, knowing Uncle Sam would back them up.

We've been over this before. Not gonna repeat myself.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

You mean you're not going to repeat yourself repeating yourself? Because you just repeated yourself. Again.

And yes, we all get that the banks were FORCED to loan money - forced by the most powerful man in the world (apparently), Barney Frank, with his evil sidekick, the almost-as-powerful Chris Dodd. Able to enact laws in a single word, despite being in the minority in Congress at the time. More powerful than a speeding George Dubya Bush...

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
in.

And yes, we all get that the banks were FORCED to loan money - forced by the most powerful man in the world (apparently), Barney Frank, with his evil sidekick, the almost-as-powerful Chris Dodd. Able to enact laws in a single word, despite being in * A VERY SLIM minority in Congress at the time. More powerful than a speeding George Dubya Bush...

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

]

* Fixed that for ya.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Facilitate:To make easy or easier:

facilitate
Verb
[-tating, -tated] to make easier the progress of:

EXACTLY doofus; Capitalism FACILITATES greed.

Dorkus.

The laughing Chrisisall

KWICKO

Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:35 PM

Quote:

Individuality and adaptive thinking have been bred out of our society, and we're left to rely on the Imperial Federal Gov't to survive.

E.g. - New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina

I'm not sure I follow ya on that one. Are you saying the people forgot how to survive without federal help which was slow in coming, or that the federal help was slow in coming to teach the people a lesson in how to survive without it?

Reason I ask is that for years you've maintained that the government did everything right during Katrina, and that Brownie really WAS doing a heckuva job. Now it seems that you're not too sure.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

You cannot BLAME capitalism for the ill deeds of man.
And I wasn't saying this anyway.

And you wonder why we poke at you, angry monkey.

The laughing Chrisisall

That's exactly what you said. What you meant.

Go play in traffic.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

I'm not sure I follow ya on that one. Are you saying the people forgot how to survive without federal help which was slow in coming, or that the federal help was slow in coming to teach the people a lesson in how to survive without it?

Folks relied on the Gov't because they had no other means of support. That's THEIR fault, not the Government's

Quote:

Reason I ask is that for years you've maintained that the government did everything right during Katrina, and that Brownie really WAS doing a heckuva job. Now it seems that you're not too sure.

Mike

I NEVER said the Gov't did everything " right " , which , once again, is the cause of your confusion. Gov't did what it normally does - take its own damn time in responding and even when it did, it was too little , too late. That's about as good as can be expected. The phrase - " Good enough for government work " has its origins in the common view that government workers are over paid, under worked and generally lack any real high level of skill. It applies to almost any big government dealing with a crisis, around the world. Whether its the heat wave of Paris a few years ago, or the recent brush fires in Australia, one common complaint is that " government" didn't act fast enough, or come properly equipped, or wasn't responsive to the needs of those in need, etc....

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Facilitate:To make easy or easier:

facilitate
Verb
[-tating, -tated] to make easier the progress of:

EXACTLY doofus; Capitalism FACILITATES greed.
The laughing Chrisisall

No more or less than any other system, and when you're posting in a thread titled " why i hate capitalism ", the implied meaning is that capitalism, more so than any other form of economic system, facilitates evil.

Again, you're wrong, and I'm right. What's that, like 1 billion points to zero ? You can go ahead an quit now. You'll never win.

Never.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

KWICKO

Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:50 PM

Quote:
The phrase - " Good enough for government work " has its origins in the common view that government workers are over paid, under worked and generally lack any real high level of skill.

Well, it's nice to see that you have such respect for our troops. They are, after all, "government workers", aren't they?

And why on Earth would you support any military action by our big government, if you're convinced that all they're going to do is fuck it up with their overpaid, under-worked, no-skill-having asses?

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

KWICKO

Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Facilitate:To make easy or easier:

facilitate
Verb
[-tating, -tated] to make easier the progress of:

EXACTLY doofus; Capitalism FACILITATES greed.
The laughing Chrisisall

No more or less than any other system, and when you're posting in a thread titled " why i hate capitalism ", the implied meaning is that capitalism, more so than any other form of economic system, facilitates evil.

Again, you're wrong, and I'm right. What's that, like 1 billion points to zero ? You can go ahead an quit now. You'll never win.

Never.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

I've yet to see you win ONE point, much less "a billion". But do keep playing; it's fun to watch you squirm and then blow up.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

AURAPTOR

Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well, it's nice to see that you have such respect for our troops. They are, after all, "government workers", aren't they?

And why on Earth would you support any military action by our big government, if you're convinced that all they're going to do is fuck it up with their overpaid, under-worked, no-skill-having asses?

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

Seems you me confused with John Kerry....

"You know education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq "

Point made : 1,000,000,001.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CHRISISALL

Thursday, February 12, 2009 11:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

You cannot BLAME capitalism for the ill deeds of man.
And I wasn't saying this anyway.

And you wonder why we poke at you, angry monkey.

The laughing Chrisisall

That's exactly what you said. What you meant.

Let's see:
"Yes, and Capitalism (unregulated) facilitates it.
it CAN be a good system. Streamlining existing laws might be a good idea.
Take what works in Capitalism, leave what doesn't
Capitalism is the gun provided to the small child.
I don't disagree with any particular part of this."

No place here do I squarely place all the blame for our economic ills on the Capitalist system, yet that's what you take from it.

Keep wondering why I dog you about your skewed POV.

The laughing Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Friday, February 13, 2009 12:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Again, you're wrong, and I'm right. What's that, like 1 billion points to zero ? You can go ahead an quit now. You'll never win.

Never.

I'm telling the teacher on you, AU WAHHHHHHH!

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Friday, February 13, 2009 12:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

No place here do I squarely place all the blame for our economic ills on the Capitalist system, yet that's what you take from it.

The laughing Chrisisall

Again, for the short bus types, like Chris.

When you post in a thread titled " Why I hate Capitalism" , and you omit all other forms of economic systems that " FACILITATE " evil, and all you do is vilify capitalism, then by omission, you're blaming capitalism.

Selah

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CITIZEN

Friday, February 13, 2009 12:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And why on Earth would you support any military action by our big government, if you're convinced that all they're going to do is fuck it up with their overpaid, under-worked, no-skill-having asses?

To be fair, the US Army is pretty poorly trained.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

CHRISISALL

Friday, February 13, 2009 12:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

When you post in a thread titled " Why I hate Capitalism" , and you omit all other forms of economic systems that " FACILITATE " evil, and all you do is vilify capitalism, then by omission, you're blaming capitalism.

Wow. That's so stupid I'm actually sort of surprised.
Now I can't go on a thread that criticizes Obama without bringing up EVERY other President's dirt without being an Obama-hater by omission!!

Give up & throw out the BS; you're surrounded!!

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Friday, February 13, 2009 12:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Give up & throw out the BS; you're surrounded!!

I own you bitches.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CHRISISALL

Friday, February 13, 2009 12:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
when you're posting in a thread titled " why i hate capitalism ", the implied meaning is that capitalism, more so than any other form of economic system, facilitates evil.

So by my saying that it can work, or be made better, that's IMPLYING that capitalism, more so than any other form of economic system, facilitates evil.

Thanks for the words, AU, very tasty.

You A S S U M E too much, dude.

The laughing Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Friday, February 13, 2009 12:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I own you bitches.

LOL, you're in flames, man. And everyone but you knows it. How's The Nile today? Deep?

The laughing Chrisisall

CORNCOBB

Friday, February 13, 2009 12:51 AM

I'm late to this discussion, sorry. Quick catch-up, Rap:

1. Ommitting mention of other forms of economic system when commenting on capitalism does not automatically indicate that capitalism is wholly to blame. To assume such implication would be induction, not deduction i.e. it derives definite conclusions from observations too limited to rationally prove the hypothesis. It's a logical fallacy. Or, in smaller words, it's a crock.

2. While I agree with the maxim of 'good enough for government work', saying that the victims of Katrina deserved the consequences of that disaster for not having an economic safety net in place is pretty damn harsh. I'm sure every single person wished they had some way to cope with the crisis on their own. But another old maxim says 'wishing only counts in horseshoes...' Don't assume that these people were in that situation because they wanted to be, or were too dependant, rather than because of their class or geographical location, limited contacts and resources etc. That's be another one of those logical fallacy things.

3. A person who takes time off work for entrepreneurial pursuits risks their home, car, marriage and health? Really? cos those fist two things are no less quantifiable losses than a job, and therefore do not support the argument you were making. And the last two things shouldn't really be threatened by being jobless - not everyone measures others based on their earnings, and work often has a negative effect on people's health - in fact it kills more people than war.

I think that's three points I can pinch from your self-proclaimed total of a billion, thanks.

"Gorramit Mal... I've forgotten my line."

CHRISISALL

Friday, February 13, 2009 1:39 AM

Corncobb puts my weak (but still stronger than AU's) argument into the most exact of words!
Thanks, buddy!

The laughing Chrisisall

RUE

Friday, February 13, 2009 1:41 AM

I just have to respond to this one post Rap, b/c it's an fine example of what goes on inside your head. And, take my word for it, it's stuff that you really don't want other people to see:

Quote:
And after decades of GOVERNMENT SCHOOLING, the nation has been dumbed down to the level of a child, needing it's GREAT FATHER ( or MOTHER ) - Government, to tell us how much to work, how much we can earn, when to sleep, to tie our shoes, what to buy........
Individuality and adaptive thinking have been bred out of our society, and we're left to rely on the Imperial Federal Gov't to survive.
E.g. - New Orleans and Hurricane Katrina

Now, since you don't have even one point to make I won't respond to your claims.

But what really, really shows through is your contempt for anyone who isn't privileged. We're the 'them' - aren't we Rap ? The 95% of 'them' who don't pay taxes, who don't deserve government representation, the sub-humans who don't count in your mental scheme.

You blew it big time. And now we all know who you really are.

Gooooood jooooooob.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

KWICKO

Friday, February 13, 2009 1:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Well, it's nice to see that you have such respect for our troops. They are, after all, "government workers", aren't they?

And why on Earth would you support any military action by our big government, if you're convinced that all they're going to do is fuck it up with their overpaid, under-worked, no-skill-having asses?

Mike

Seems you me confused with John Kerry....

"You know education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework, and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq "

There you go again, besmirching yet another decorated war veteran. And you have the nerve to call yourself a "patriot". How many tours did you do in Iraq and/or Afghanistan, anyway?

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

AURAPTOR

Friday, February 13, 2009 2:12 AM

1. Omitting all other economic systems, in this thread, and for this purpose, is attacking capitalism.

2. You don't know much about New Orleans, do you ? The risk that the levees could / would fail and a major hurricane would cause havok for the city has been known for generations. Folks knew ( Gov, Mayor, every man, woman and child ) and yet little was done. ) Harsh? Life is harsh. You tell folks living on a volcano that it may one day blow, and they stay put, who are you gonna blame....them? Or the Government ?

3. Anyone who leaves their job and goes after their dream of , what ever, is risking every thing. Some prepare better than others, but that does not take away from the fact that they put their future at considerable risk. Marriages are most often ended over what issue ? Money. If a person quits their job, and fails to make $$ over time, pursuing their dream,.. yeah, there's a risk their marriage might end. And their health could most certainly head south.

I see you fail to grasp the full context of what I'm speaking. obvioulsy, you've never done any such thing, quit a steady paying job to see if you can make it all on your own.... and know not of what you speak.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

DREAMTROVE

Friday, February 13, 2009 2:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Citizen
Quote:

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:
Don't be stupid. Free enterprise is the basis of all capitalism.

Actually he's right. Free enterprise isn't exclusive to capitalism. There's free enterprise in mercantilism, for instance. The major quantifying difference of capitalism is that it is focused on Capital, hence the name.

Okay, Citizen, a) thanks, and b) you have a brain. My apologies for an earlier tirade. I panicked, I hate these back and forth arguments, they're like a staring contest: Either concede or post. I don't have time to post. I don't feel I should concede when I think I'm right, but it forces the issue.

To the subject at hand, yes, of course you're right. The basis of capitalism is capital. Capital is an explicit reference to a form of inherited wealth. The first capitalists systems were african agricultural systems, where capital was perishable, but by 2000 BC or so, the gold standard had taken over as the mainstay of capital, flanked by some similar measures, which formed "persistent capital." With persistent capital, there is never a renewal, the families or institutions which possessed the capital in the last generation will possess it in the next, regardless of whether or not they produce anything.

As a system that rewards the achievements of predecessors and discourages production among descendents, its an anathema to progress. The situation was exacerbated with the concept of interest capitalism and ultimately fiat capitalism, which enables the holders of persistent capital against any threat to their dominance by the accumulation of capital by a productive non-inheriting working class outside of the families and institutions that possess capital.

A lot of the anti-semitism which evolves comes out of this reality of the system: A few now prominent Jewish families were early into the system. If ancient Egypt and Rome were still around, they would dominate, as for many centuries, the Vatican did. Even so, there are many families that were able to secure substantial capital through oil discoveries, etc., who could then being new royalty under the rules of persistent capital. And PN, that's the real link, imho: Rockefellers, I don't care what genes they carry, they got into oil, that put them on the map.

So, capitalism is a system that you can gain entry into, by starting a world war, (sorry Zurich) or simply massive international theft and black market activity (Dubai, anyone?) But progress through the free market and production of goods and services buys you only a small slice of the pie, and you can easily be taken out by extant persistent capital. Silicon valley could be swallowed by the interest on the US debt, the entire stem cell industry could be eaten for what the govt. spends in day.

Objectively, this is absurd. The progress in society is coming from the high tech and biotech sectors. A better designed economy would account then they greater share of clout, and take the banks down to the level of a security firm, because let's face it, that's what they are. They don't perform no service, but no more than any other security firm.

There have been many free market economic systems in the history of the world that do not involve the reward of persistent capital over the creation of progress.

AURAPTOR

Friday, February 13, 2009 2:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

There you go again, besmirching yet another decorated war veteran. And you have the nerve to call yourself a "patriot". How many tours did you do in Iraq and/or Afghanistan, anyway?

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

Kerry besmirched himself. He's a liar and a blow hard.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Friday, February 13, 2009 2:18 AM

Rap

If you hadn't let slip that your daddy bought oil stocks for you and that you're well taken care of maybe your opinion would count. But you did let that out, and your opinion doesn't count.

Never been to war but certainly can trash-talk those who've been, never worked your way up from nothing, never risked your ass, never did anything except suck on the ample teat your daddy provided.

And have the nerve to tell other people they are sub-humans 'cause they aren't where you are in life.

Gooood jooooooob.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

AURAPTOR

Friday, February 13, 2009 3:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rap

If you hadn't let slip that your daddy bought oil stocks for you and that you're well taken care of maybe your opinion would count. But you did let that out, and your opinion doesn't count.

Dad didn't. Mom did. She worked there, back in the day. Smart choice on her part, it was. And I'm far from " taken care of " , but thanks anyway for your concern. My opinion is very much valid, despite your bigoted rant.

Quote:
Never been to war but certainly can trash-talk those who've been, never worked your way up from nothing, never risked your ass, never did anything except suck on the ample teat your daddy provided.
Trash talking BLOW HARD Kerry? That nancy boy of a liar ? You're kidding, right ? It's funny, you making ASSumptions about that which you really have no clue. Funny, and a bit sad. But mostly funny.

Quote:

And have the nerve to tell other people they are sub-humans 'cause they aren't where you are in life.

Gooood jooooooob.
Silence is consent.

Never once said that, or even remotely implied it, but if it helps you sleep better at night thinking that, have at it. You have no problem making up the rest of my life for me, why stop at what I think ?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

KWICKO

Friday, February 13, 2009 4:20 AM

Quote:
He's a liar and a blow hard.

Don't know why you'd hold that against him; you certainly don't seem to hold it against yourself, and you're at least as big a liar and blowhard.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

AURAPTOR

Friday, February 13, 2009 7:04 AM

See, now you're not even trying... I've not lied one iota. Kerry lied about a great many things.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

GEEZER

Friday, February 13, 2009 2:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer: Ben&Jerry's versus Walmart. That's capitalism.

In the sense that they're both capitalist businesses, and they are both doing well in their markets, that is capitalism.

Ben & Jerry's provides high-end ice cream and a business philosophy that appeals to a certain segment of their market; a large enough segment to keep them in business and expanding.

Wal-Mart skips the business philosophy, and, whether you agree with their methods or not, provides durable goods at a price many folk without much money can afford.

One flaw I see in your argument is that it's based on the premise that everyone wants only the cheapest price. This is not the case. Folks who buy Ben & Jerry's products are willing to pay more for them because they prefer good quality(and probably the Green ethos the company espouses) over low price. I shop for a suit at Nordstrom rather than Wal-Mart because the style, quality, and customer service is better.

The other point I'd have to argue is that greed is specific to, or more prevalent in, capitalism. In other eonomic systems, where business is controlled wholly or partially by the government, the greedy tend to gravitate to the government, where they can either skim off the business income or force manufacturing to meet quotas at the expense of quality.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

KWICKO

Friday, February 13, 2009 2:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
See, now you're not even trying... I've not lied one iota. Kerry lied about a great many things.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

"95% of Americans pay no taxes whatsoever."

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

CHRISISALL

Friday, February 13, 2009 2:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

"95% of Americans pay no taxes whatsoever."

Hey Mike, how do I join that club?

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Friday, February 13, 2009 2:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

"95% of Americans pay no taxes whatsoever."

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

I suppose that's your sole example of me some how " lying " ???

Wow. So,if Obama says 95% are getting a tax cut, A COLOSSAL LIE, he's given a pass. Yet if I say it, making a point of how absurd his comments were, I'm some how lying ?

That's weak, even for you libs.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CHRISISALL

Friday, February 13, 2009 2:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I suppose that's your sole example of me some how " lying " ???

Mostly, you just lie to yourself, I conjure.

The laughing Chrisisall

AURAPTOR

Friday, February 13, 2009 3:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I suppose that's your sole example of me some how " lying " ???

Mostly, you just lie to yourself, I conjure.

The laughing Chrisisall

So, when I hope you and the other clowns here will some day see the error of your ways and come over to the Light side of the force, I'm just lying to myself ?

Meh. Probably right.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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