Siding with the bullies

POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Sunday, January 11, 2009 13:57
VIEWED: 9895
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SIGNYM

Friday, January 9, 2009 12:25 AM

Two threads right in a row: "First you find a Ghetto" and "I'm starting to get really depressed". Which reminded me of "Don't tase me, Bro!"

It all wraps up into one package: there are peeps who consistently side with bullies.

You know who you are.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Friday, January 9, 2009 1:51 AM

Why not list each by username with a corresponding short paragraph outlining their perceived transgressions?
Why go off half-cocked like this Signy? What point are you trying to half make?
Show the courage of your convictions Signy. You know, go big or go home.

SIGNYM

Friday, January 9, 2009 2:02 AM

It would be a long list.

But yanno if there is a person in uniform with a Taser, Kevlar vest, gun, baton, and face shield facing a guy in a T-shirt mouthing off, some peeps just gravitate towards tasers. Or money. Or great military hardware.

They just do. It's totally automatic.

It was a flash of insight.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

WULFENSTAR

Friday, January 9, 2009 2:04 AM

Sig, what are you speaking to?

I sure as shit don't side with bullies.

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, January 9, 2009 2:40 AM

I think it's the cool toys and a percieved respect of displayed authority as automatically legitimate.

Prolly why I don't react that way, cause to an Anarchist no authority over other people is at all legitimate in any way.

That and the first thing I think when I see the cool toys are what their weaknesses are.

-F

DREAMTROVE

Friday, January 9, 2009 3:23 AM

Now take your attitude from the perspective of a spider.

GEEZER

Friday, January 9, 2009 3:41 AM

Per SignyM, anyone who doesn't think Hamas is Robin Hood is a bully.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Friday, January 9, 2009 4:07 AM

Wulf, if you're asking the question you're not part of the problem.

Stay cool, man.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

SIGNYM

Friday, January 9, 2009 4:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Per SignyM, anyone who doesn't think Hamas is Robin Hood is a bully.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

Fuck you, Geezer. that's the only response you deserve.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, January 9, 2009 4:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Originally posted by Geezer:
Per SignyM, anyone who doesn't think Hamas is Robin Hood is a bully.

"Keep the Shiny side up"
Fuck you, Geezer. that's the only response you deserve.

Geezer’s right. You and a minority of others apologize for a terrorist faction, then you try to hide it by accusing anyone who doesn’t apologize for Hamas as bullies.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

KIRKULES

Friday, January 9, 2009 5:02 AM

I was having a nice friendly debate with my adult daughter one day, and she started crying like a little girl. I asked her why she was crying and she told me her feelings were just as important as my facts. That was the last time I ever debated with her, because I realised it's pointless. People that ignore facts and base their World view on emotions, don't see reality clearly enough to be taken seriously in a debate. Doesn't mean they're not smart people, just means they have gentle caring hearts. I might be a bully, but at least I don't let my emotions cloud my view of reality, usually anyway.

DREAMTROVE

Friday, January 9, 2009 5:22 AM

I have to side with the neanderthal here.

SIGNYM

Friday, January 9, 2009 5:29 AM

Quote:
Fuck you, Geezer. that's the only response you deserve.- Signy

Geezer’s right. You and a minority of others apologize for a terrorist faction, then you try to hide it by accusing anyone who doesn’t apologize for Hamas as bullies.- Finn

Bull.

Shit.

I'm not making excuses for Hamas.

But Israel does what Hamas does AND MORE.

Why do YOU keep making excuses for Israel?

So...fuck you too, Finn.

That's about all you deserve too.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, January 9, 2009 5:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Fuck you, Geezer. that's the only response you deserve.- Signy

Geezer’s right. You and a minority of others apologize for a terrorist faction, then you try to hide it by accusing anyone who doesn’t apologize for Hamas as bullies.- Finn
Bull.

Shit.

I'm not making excuses for Hamas.

But Israel does what Hamas does AND MORE.

Why do YOU keep making excuses for Israel?

So...fuck you too, Finn.

That's about all you deserve too.

Geezer’s still right. No matter how many people you fuck.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Friday, January 9, 2009 5:50 AM

Sure, sure.

Whatever.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, January 9, 2009 8:09 AM

I said it before, I'll say it again.

Given the situation, Hamas's real problem is that they're not murderous ENOUGH bastards - a problem the other side doesn't suffer from one bit.

-F

AURAPTOR

Friday, January 9, 2009 1:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

But Israel does what Hamas does AND MORE.

Why do YOU keep making excuses for Israel?

.

To quote your own damn self....

Bull

and

Shit.

Never has anything been posted here which is as flatly more false than your posted remark.

Israel has been ridiculously patient and reserved in how it deals w/ muslim terrorist. Hamas and the Palestinians are a culture of death.

I can' only guess that it's your colossal ignorance which allows you to think the way you do.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

SIGNYM

Friday, January 9, 2009 2:00 PM

Quote:
Israel has been ridiculously patient and reserved in how it deals w/ muslim terrorist. Hamas and the Palestinians are a culture of death.

As usual Rapo, you're talking in complete defiance of the facts. (BTW, how's that economy going? Great? Oh, good, good. I only bring that up to remind others how incapable you are of seeing an elephant right in front of you.)

Killing civilians?
Check. Israel kills about 10X as many civilians as Hamas.

Quote:
The figures speak for themselves. In the three years after the withdrawal from Gaza, 11 Israelis were killed by rocket fire. On the other hand, in 2005-7 alone, the IDF killed 1,290 Palestinians in Gaza, including 222 children.

/ www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

Using civilians as shields?
Check. The IDF's standard policy is to use occupied civilians homes as bases.

Economic warfare?
Check. Here, Israel has it all over Hamas. They've managed to turn the entire Gaza strip into a version of the Warsaw ghetto. (You should look up the Warsaw ghetto some day & learn some history.)

I know you sympathize with Israel, and because of that you excuse anything they do: terrorism, torture, civilian killing, segregation, economic warfare. Like I said, some peeps just side with the superior force.

-----------------

You see, BDN? I didn't have to make a list. And, they know who they are.

------------------------

FREM: I think you hit the nail on the head.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, January 9, 2009 2:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Using civilians as shields?
Check. The IDF's standard policy is to use occupied civilians homes as bases.

I have never heard of any policy standard or otherwise of IDF using occupied civilians homes as bases. Care to back that up?

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Friday, January 9, 2009 2:24 PM

Quote:
I have never heard of any policy standard or otherwise of IDF using occupied civilians homes as bases. Care to back that up?

As reported by Amnesty International and ISPS News and linked in the other thread.

Quote:
Amnesty International accused the IDF and Palestinian gunmen Wednesday of using Palestinian civilians as human shields.

"Our sources in Gaza report that Israeli soldiers have entered and taken up positions in a number of Palestinian homes, forcing families to stay in a ground-floor room while they use the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position," said Malcolm Smart, Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa programme director.

"This clearly increases the risk to the Palestinian families concerned, and means they are effectively being used as human shields," he said. While Palestinian gunmen have also used civilian homes as bases to attack Israeli forces, the IDF has adopted this tactic for many years. It is standard IDF policy throughout the occupied West Bank to use Palestinian homes as bases, while confining families to single bedrooms. Israeli soldiers have been filmed forcing Palestinian youngsters to walk in front of army jeeps or to enter a home they fear is booby-trapped or has gunmen inside, before the soldiers follow afterwards.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, January 9, 2009 2:32 PM

Do you have a link?

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

AURAPTOR

Friday, January 9, 2009 2:47 PM

Sig,

The more you bitch and whine about the economy now only proves I was right in how well it was doing a year or 2 ago. But keep beating THAT dead horse, as it seems to bring you some sort of pleasure.

The number of civilians killed isn't the issue here. This isn't a fucking game where points are totaled. Hamas TARGETS civilians, and then hides behind their own, while Israel takes great steps to avoid killing innocents. THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE. That Hamas puts women and children in front of their terrorist is a giant fact you seem to over look. Wonder why. There's a video out of muslim terrorist ( hamas ) firing mortars from the courtyard of a boys elementary school, which is all the proof needed to show what sorts of animals Israel is dealing with.

You should learn your current events, and stop trying to tell others to learn history. Gaza was blockaded because Hamas was firing rockets, and not the other way around.

I have no ties w/ Israel. And as an atheist, I have no delusions about the Holy land, the chosen people or any such nonsense. I just see what's right and what's wrong, and clearly, by a far measure, Israel is much more in the right than Hamas. It's not even up for debate, it's so lopsided.

Quote:
Like I said, some peeps just side with the superior force.

You're going to have to accept the fact that sometimes the little guy is wrong, and not always is the big guy the bad guy.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, January 9, 2009 3:13 PM

I don’t condone the actions of Israelis to put civilians in harm, I’ve never heard of a standard policy to use occupied civilians homes as bases – I’ve heard that the IDF uses unoccupied homes or sometimes, displaces civilians from their homes to a safe house, if they choose to leave, but just using occupied civilians homes without giving the civilians an option to leave to a safe area is not a great thing to do. And if any Israeli soldiers who use civilians to test for booby traps, they should be arrested.

On the other hand Hamas and Hezbollah, not only use civilian homes, but they use Hospitals, schools and other public buildings that are in use by civilians to stage attacks, not as a base of operations, but to stage attacks against Israeli forces. This forces civilian infrastructure to become eminent military targets. The reason why Hamas and Hezbollah do this is obvious. They can accuse Israelis of killing civilians – which uses Israeli firepower against them. Both Hamas and Hezbollah have admitted that they do this and praised unwitting civilians killed by Israeli firepower targeting legitimate Hamas and Hezbollah targets as martyrs.

And ultimately, I know that the Israelis are very concerned with civilian death, if for no other reason, because it doesn’t do them a damn bit of good. Every Palestinian that gets killed will be a loss for Israel and a win for Hamas and/or Hezbollah. This was very evident in the Israeli-Hezbollah war a year or so ago.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

KWICKO

Friday, January 9, 2009 7:07 PM

Quote:
...while Israel takes great steps to avoid killing innocents.

To quote your own stupid self:

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Bull

and

Shit.

I can only guess that it's your colossal ignorance which allows you to think the way you do.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

SIGNYM

Friday, January 9, 2009 7:14 PM

Quote:
but they use Hospitals, schools and other public buildings that are in use by civilians to stage attacks, not as a base of operations, but to stage attacks against Israeli forces.

Israel has accused EVERYBODY of doing this: the UN, the Red Crescent, the Red Cross.... They even accused the UN of using ambulances to ferry terrorists with bombs (turned out to be a wounded guy on a gurney). Sheesh! In this latest invasion Israel attacked a UN school full of civilians taking shelter. The UN had provided GPS coordinates to the IDF. The IDF "said" that they saw mortar launches coming from the school... either it was a mistake or an outright lie, but a lot of civvies got killed.

Don't believe everything you read, sonny.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

STORYMARK

Friday, January 9, 2009 7:37 PM

Sig has a point. What Hamas is going/has done should not be condoned, but there are those here who would view any slight from a Palestinian as justification for nukeing all of Gaza, and would party at the thought.

tThey are the truely disturbing folk.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

KWICKO

Friday, January 9, 2009 8:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Sig has a point. What Hamas is going/has done should not be condoned, but there are those here who would view any slight from a Palestinian as justification for nukeing all of Gaza, and would party at the thought.

tThey are the truely disturbing folk.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

"Some people just want to watch the world burn."

Of course, they somehow think that they will be magically immune to the flames...

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

SIGNYM

Friday, January 9, 2009 8:11 PM

Finn, Geezer, Rapo-

Betcha didn't know THIS:

Israel Rejected Hamas Ceasefire Offer in December

Quote:
WASHINGTON, Jan 9 (IPS) - Contrary to Israel's argument that it was forced to launch its air and ground offensive against Gaza in order to stop the firing of rockets into its territory, Hamas proposed in mid-December to return to the original Hamas-Israel ceasefire arrangement, according to a U.S.-based source who has been briefed on the proposal. The proposal to renew the ceasefire was presented by a high-level Hamas delegation to Egyptian Minister of Intelligence Omar Suleiman at a meeting in Cairo Dec. 14. The delegation, said to have included Moussa Abu Marzouk, the second-ranking official in the Hamas political bureau in Damascus, told Suleiman that Hamas was prepared to stop all rocket attacks against Israel if the Israelis would open up the Gaza border crossings and pledge not to launch attacks in Gaza.

The Hamas officials insisted that Israel not be allowed to close or reduce commercial traffic through border crossings for political purposes, as it had done during the six-month lull according to the source. They asked Suleiman, who had served as mediator between Israel and Hamas in negotiating the original six-month Gaza ceasefire last spring, to "put pressure" on Israel to take that the ceasefire proposal seriously. Suleiman said he could not pressure Israel but could only make the suggestion to Israeli officials. It could not be learned, however, whether Israel explicitly rejected the Hamas proposal or simply refused to respond to Egypt.The readiness of Hamas to return to the ceasefire conditionally in mid-December was confirmed by Dr. Robert Pastor, a professor at American University and senior adviser to the Carter Centre, who met with Khaled Meshal, chairman of the Hamas political bureau in Damascus on Dec. 14, along with former President Jimmy Carter. Pastor told IPS that Meshal indicated Hamas was willing to go back to the ceasefire that had been in effect up to early November "if there was a sign that Israel would lift the siege on Gaza".

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

SIGNYM

Friday, January 9, 2009 8:28 PM

Like I said, there's more than enough blame to go around. (And more on Israel's side than Finn, Rapo, and any number of reflexives would credit). If politics was fair Israel should also be branded a terrorist nation. So let's stop with the blame game and discuss what should be done.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

RUE

Friday, January 9, 2009 8:40 PM

I would get a MUSCULAR UN peace force together (no more Rwandas allowed) with troops equally balanced between pro-Israelis and those who disapprove (that would be divided between US troops and anyone else).

I would tell Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders. The settlements ? Well, you shoulda' made sure you had legal title to the land. I would tell Gaza groups to stop shelling. I would open up the borders and make UN troops responsible for border security. I would tell the various groups in Gaza that since the borders were NOW open and would STAY open b/c Israel was no longer in control, there would be NO MORE shelling. Any more shelling, and UN troops would go away, along with UN aid, and they (Gazans) would be left to deal with Israel on their own. I would tell Israel that any more stunts like that, and US foreign aid gets cut in half. And the next time after that, it goes away completely.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

RIVERLOVE

Friday, January 9, 2009 8:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Like I said, there's more than enough blame to go around. (And more on Israel's side than Finn, Rapo, and any number of reflexives would credit). If politics was fair Israel should also be branded a terrorist nation. So let's stop with the blame game and discuss what should be done.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

You sound like PN, Al Jazeera, and Al Zawahiri. Those your new talking point providers now? I'm stunned and terribly disappointed in you and Rue. You have no credibility any more. Maybe you're just so used to fighting with Auraptor & Geezer that you've lost sight of reality and rightousness in this current situation.

SIGNYM

Friday, January 9, 2009 8:52 PM

And you sound like a dick-brain.

And since I don't want to waste my time talking with ingoramuses (ignorami?) I'll give you the response you deserve:

fuck you.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, January 9, 2009 9:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
In this latest invasion Israel attacked a UN school full of civilians taking shelter. The UN had provided GPS coordinates to the IDF. The IDF "said" that they saw mortar launches coming from the school... either it was a mistake or an outright lie, but a lot of civvies got killed.

Right, because it couldn’t possible be true, since Hamas is so warm and fuzzy. You’re right about one thing. I shouldn’t believe everything I read, and I don’t know, including people like you who want to absolve terrorist organizations of complicity to satisfy some strange desire for political balance.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

RIVERLOVE

Friday, January 9, 2009 9:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
And you sound like a dick-brain.

And since I don't want to waste my time talking with ingoramuses (ignorami?) I'll give you the response you deserve:

fuck you.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

Well that just proves my point. You don't really even believe the crap you are spewing. Fuck me? No fuck you, you Jew hating terrorist-loving dumb fuck.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, January 9, 2009 9:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Israel Rejected Hamas Ceasefire Offer in December

WASHINGTON, Jan 9 (IPS) - Contrary to Israel's argument that it was forced to launch its air and ground offensive against Gaza in order to stop the firing of rockets into its territory, Hamas proposed in mid-December to return to the original Hamas-Israel ceasefire arrangement, according to a U.S.-based source who has been briefed on the proposal.

Ah, and Israel didn’t like Hamas’ idea of a ceasefire, huh? You mean after Hamas violated the original ceasefire 5 days into it, and then continued to violate it to the tune of hundreds and hundreds of munitions every single month for the entire duration of the ceasefire, Israel still wasn't willing to accept Hamas' ceasefire? Hmm, strange.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

RIVERLOVE

Friday, January 9, 2009 9:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Israel Rejected Hamas Ceasefire Offer in December

WASHINGTON, Jan 9 (IPS) - Contrary to Israel's argument that it was forced to launch its air and ground offensive against Gaza in order to stop the firing of rockets into its territory, Hamas proposed in mid-December to return to the original Hamas-Israel ceasefire arrangement, according to a U.S.-based source who has been briefed on the proposal.
Ah, and Israel didn’t like Hamas’ idea of a ceasefire, huh? You mean after Hamas violated the original ceasefire 5 days into it, and then continued to violate it to the tune of hundreds and hundreds of munitions every single month for the entire duration of the ceasefire, Israel still wasn't willing to accept Hamas' ceasefire? Hmm, strange.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

Yer wasting your time with this Signy piece of shit. His new thing now is to parrot Al Zawahiri and PN in their delusional hatred of Israel, call us stupid, and then say fuck you. I think he's lost his mind, likely as a result of 8 years of Bush Derangement Syndrome. He's got his Bush leaving in 10 days and he's desperate for something new to hate. You Finn, and Auraptor, and Geezer are 100% right about everything you've written on this subject.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, January 9, 2009 9:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Yer wasting your time with this Signy piece of shit. His new thing now is to parrot Al Zawahiri and PN in their delusional hatred of Israel, call us stupid, and then say fuck you. I think he's lost his mind, likely as a result of 8 years of Bush Derangement Syndrome. He's got his Bush leaving in 10 days and he's desperate for something new to hate. You Finn, and Auraptor, and Geezer are 100% right about everything you've written on this subject.

Thanks for the support, but Signym isn’t a piece of shit. I can’t condone that kind of language, no matter what language Signym has used. She happens to hold a different point of view then me. I think Signym has confused proportional with fairness. Perhaps she has confused the Palestinians with Hamas – a common error. I don’t know what causes Signym to want to give Hamas so much leniency and Israel so little, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t treat each other with some degree of civility. We’re all still Browncoats.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

STORYMARK

Friday, January 9, 2009 9:41 PM

You right-wing hardliners are funny, and uterly predictable in your invective-laden responses.

You should just be honest and start advocating all-out genocide against Arabs, because it's clear than anything less than that is "Jew-hating" to your narrow little minds.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, January 9, 2009 10:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
You should just be honest and start advocating all-out genocide against Arabs, because it's clear than anything less than that is "Jew-hating" to your narrow little minds.

As soon as you’re honest enough to start advocating all-out genocide against Jews.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

GINOBIFFARONI

Friday, January 9, 2009 10:41 PM

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/war_on_gaza/2009/01/200914102257130
539.html

FOCUS: OPINION
Israel's fait accompli in Gaza
By Eric S. Margolis

There are two completely different versions of what is currently happening in Gaza.

In the Israeli and North American press version, Hamas - 'Islamic terrorists' backed by Iran - have in an unprovoked attack fired deadly rockets on innocent Israel with the intent of destroying the Jewish state.

North American politicians and the media say Israel "has the right to defend itself".

True enough. No Israeli government can tolerate rockets hitting its towns, even though the casualty totals have been less than the car crash fatalities registered during a single holiday weekend on Israel's roads.

The firing of the feeble, home-made al-Qassam rockets by Palestinians is both useless and counter-productive.

It damages their image as an oppressed people and gives right-wing Israeli extremists a perfect reason to launch more attacks on the Arabs and refuse to discuss peace.

Israel's supporters insist it has the absolute right to drop hundreds of tonnes of bombs on 'Hamas targets' inside the 360sq km Gaza Strip to 'take out the terrorists'.

Civilians suffer, says Israel, because the cowardly Hamas hide among them.

Actually, it is more like shooting fish in a barrel.

Omitting facts

As usual, this cartoon-like version of events omits a great deal of nuance and background.

Seventy per cent of Palestinian children suffer from psychological trauma [GALLO/GETTY]
While firing rockets at civilians is a crime so, too, is the Israeli blockade of Gaza, which is an egregious violation of international law and the Geneva Conventions.

According to the UN, most of Gaza's 1.5 million Palestinian refugees subsist near the edge of hunger. Seventy per cent of Palestinian children in Gaza suffer from severe malnutrition and psychological trauma.

Medical facilities are critically short of doctors, personnel, equipment, and drugs. Gaza has quite literally become a human garbage dump for all the Arabs that Israel does not want.

Gaza is one of the world's most-densely populated places, a vast outdoor prison camp filled with desperate people. In the past, they threw stones at their Israeli occupiers; now they launch home-made rockets.

Call it a prison riot, writ large.

Eyeing the elections

When the so-called truce between Tel Aviv and Hamas expired on December 19, Israeli politicians were in the throes of preparing for the February 10 national elections.

Israeli politics are playing a key role in this crisis.

Ehud Barak, the defence minister and leader of the Labour party, and Tzipi Livni, the foreign minister and leader of the Kadima party, are trying to prove themselves tougher than Benjamin Netanyahu's hard-line Likud party - and one another.

Israel's elections are only six weeks away, and Likud was leading until the air raids on Gaza began. Kadima and Labour are now up in the polls.

The heavy attacks on Gaza are also designed to intimidate Israel's Arab neighbours, and make up for Israel's humiliating 2006 defeat in Lebanon, which still haunts the country's politicians and generals.

A fait accompli

When the air raids on Gaza began, Barak said: "We have totally changed the rules of the game."

He was right. By blitzing Hamas-run Gaza, Barak presented the incoming US administration with a fait accompli, and neatly checkmated the newest player in the Middle East Great Game - Barack Obama, the US president-elect - before he could even take a seat at the table.

IN DEPTH

Latest news and analysis from Gaza and Israel

Send us your views and videos

Watch our coverage of the war on Gaza
The Israeli offensive into Gaza now looks likely to short-circuit any plans Obama might have had to press Israel into withdrawing to its pre-1967 borders and sharing Jerusalem.

This has pleased Israel's supporters in North America who have been cheering the war in Gaza and have been backing away from their

STORYMARK

Friday, January 9, 2009 10:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
You should just be honest and start advocating all-out genocide against Arabs, because it's clear than anything less than that is "Jew-hating" to your narrow little minds.
As soon as you’re honest enough to start advocating all-out genocide against Jews.

-- Cicero

See, now you show your knee-jerk reactionary colors. I've said nothing anti-Isreal, other than to suggest they're over-doing the response a bit. But you are so steeped in your ideology, that you see anyone who has even a slightly different opinion as an anti-semite jew-hater.

You on the other hand, have been literally saying bomb all the muslims. Screw the civilians, even children, because if they live in the area, they are complicit by default.

Who here is advocating genocide?

Your hipocracy, bigotry, hatred and fear is staggering.

So, in case you missed it - my comment was a trap for nutters like you, and you not just fell, but leapt in with full vigor. Moron.

Luckily, fucks like you have lost power, so maybe there's a chance of salvaging the situation, rather than going with the scortched-raghead approach you've clearly got a hard-on for.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Friday, January 9, 2009 11:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
See, now you show your knee-jerk reactionary colors. I've said nothing anti-Isreal, other than to suggest they're over-doing the response a bit. But you are so steeped in your ideology, that you see anyone who has even a slightly different opinion as an anti-semite jew-hater.

An anti-Semite Jew-hater, huh? That sounds very PirateNews-ish.

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
You on the other hand, have been literally saying bomb all the muslims. Screw the civilians, even children, because if they live in the area, they are complicit by default.

I don’t remember saying that, literally or otherwise. Why don’t you show me where I said that? Or perhaps you’re a liar, who is so steeped in his own ideology he has to hate people with even a slighitly different opinion.

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Your hipocracy, bigotry, hatred and fear is staggering.

So, in case you missed it - my comment was a trap for nutters like you, and you not just fell, but leapt in with full vigor. Moron.

Luckily, fucks like you have lost power, so maybe there's a chance of salvaging the situation, rather than going with the scortched-raghead approach you've clearly got a hard-on for.

I guess the appropriate response would be : You right-wing hardliners are funny, and uterly(sic) predictable in your invective-laden responses.

Your hipocracy(sic), bigotry, hatred and fear is staggering.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

RUE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:17 AM

"Right, because it couldn’t possible be true, since Hamas is so warm and fuzzy."

The UN said there were no combatants or mortar equipment at or in the school. Now, who would you rather believe - the Israelis who've been repeatedly caught lying, or the UN ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Right, because it couldn’t possible be true, since Hamas is so warm and fuzzy."

The UN said there were no combatants or mortar equipment at or in the school. Now, who would you rather believe - the Israelis who've been repeatedly caught lying, or the UN ?

When were the Israeli’s caught lying again? And where did the UN say there were no combatants or mortar equipment at or in the school? And how would the UN know this? Do you really expect that Hamas or your “extremist” will be standing out from the crowd? And mortars are often portable.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

RUE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:20 AM

"I don’t know what causes Signym to want to give Hamas so much leniency and Israel so little ..."

It's the same impulse that causes people to look askance when someone shoots an unarmed person. It's the sheer discrepancy of military resources between the two.

I know SignyM brought that up more than once. Well, at least I now know that there are many people whose posts you just don't read before you 'respond' to the voices in your head.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
It's the same impulse that causes people to look askance when someone shoots an unarmed person. It's the sheer discrepancy of military resources between the two.

Well, I suspected that Sigynm's opinion is emotional, and not rational. So the solution is to let Hamas bomb Israel continuously? At what point is it emotionally acceptable for Israel to defend itself from foreign attack?

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

STORYMARK

Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
You right-wing hardliners are funny, and uterly(sic) predictable in your invective-laden responses.

Your hipocracy(sic), bigotry, hatred and fear is staggering.

-- Cicero

Heh.

I'm glad we see eye to eye.

(In case ol' Finny goes back and edits, I did quote his freudian slip accurately)

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

RUE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:33 AM

"At what point is it emotionally acceptable for Israel to defend itself from foreign attack?"

When they stop blockading a foreign country and give back the land they took ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Heh.

I'm glad we see eye to eye.

(In case ol' Finny goes back and edits, I did quote his freudian slip accurately)."

Now that really was a trap. It seems you’re perfectly okay with uterly(sic) predictable invective-laden responses, after all.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"At what point is it emotionally acceptable for Israel to defend itself from foreign attack?"

When they stop blockading a foreign country and give back the land they took ?

Ah, I see. So this really isn’t about Palestinian lives or stopping the violence. The reason you are so quick to absolve Hamas of any complicity is because you agree with them. You WANT war on Israel. You’re problem is that Israel is winning, or rather that Hamas is not.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

RUE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:47 AM

"Ah, I see. So this really isn’t about Palestinian lives or stopping the violence. The reason you are so quick to absolve Hamas of any complicity is because you agree with them. You WANT war on Israel. You’re problem is that Israel is winning, or rather that Hamas is not."

Remember about those voices ? I ask to to point out where I said anything like that.

Israel has been the aggressor. It took land and then illegally blockaded a foreign country, engaging in collective punishment. Hamas, as the legitimate government of Gaza has the right and the duty to defend the country AND its citizens.

Now, I know you support any manner of military aggression, as long as the 'right' people (the US and Israel) are doing it. And you don't think people who've been attacked should fight back, if they are the 'wrong' people and the 'right' people attacked them. I get that.

But most people are more just and less partisan than that.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:55 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Israel has been the aggressor. It took land and then illegally blockaded a foreign country, engaging in collective punishment. Hamas, as the legitimate government of Gaza has the right and the duty to defend the country AND its citizens.

If Hamas had honored the ceasefire, where would we be right now? Israel would have relaxed restrictions on movement and shipments, you and Hamas would be no closer to regaining the land you think Hamas deserves. Of course, there would be peace, but that's not what you want.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Now I know you support any manner of military aggression, as long as the 'right' people are doing it. And you don't think people who've been attacked should fight back, as long as the 'right' people atacked them. I get that.

This is from the person who has spent the entire thread (no actually multiple threads) insisting that Israel should just sit there while Hamas bombs them, right? In Hamas' view (and evidently yours as well) a ceasefire is Israel doing nothing, while bombs rain on them. That doesn't serve the goal of peace, but it does Hamas' goals.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

RUE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:57 AM

"This is from the person who has spent the entire thread (no actually multiple threads) insisting that Israel should just sit there while Hamas bombs them, right? In Hamas' view (and evidently yours as well) a ceasefire is Israel doing, while bombs rain on them. That doesn't serve the goal of peace, but it does Hamas' goals."

Please correct the grammar, I can't make heads or tails of the post.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Please correct the grammar, I can't make heads or tails of the post.

It doesn’t really matter. I think I finally have a pretty good bead on where your view is, and we aren’t going to agree, because I’m not interested in choosing sides between whose righteous war is right and whose isn’t. Israel's right to exists has been forged in wars for 50 years - they are there and they aren't leaving short of the next Jewish Holocaust. At this point, all I want is a stable situation and peace, which can’t happen while extremist terrorist factions like Hamas are in control. You, however, have chosen Hamas’ side, so you won’t be happy until Hamas has destroyed Israel and made “Palestine an Islamic land.” Hamas can’t win that fight, but they can and will cling to the delusion and continue the violence indefinitely.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:17 AM

CHILDREN!

CHILDREN!

You're behaving just like Hamas and Israel, all of you!

YOU STARTED IT!
NO I DIDN'T!
YES YOU DID, YOU'RE A CHEATER!
AND YOU'RE A LIAR!
LIAR!
CHEATER!

Right now, I don't see either side as fully justified throughout their long history. BOTH sides have engaged in heinous acts.

But we have to get PAST this view of who is right and who is wrong because all that does is enable an endless cycle of "righteous" violence and "just" vengeance. Yes, I know its not fair: Israel was given land by foreign powers which was already occupied by the Palestinians. But since history is written by the victors and Israel has hung onto its plot of land and been recognized as a legitimate nation, we have to move on from there.

The question is: What SHOULD Israel be doing if it is truly interested in self-defense, and not just grabbing land? What SHOULD the Palestinians be doing? What should foreign powers be doing? And who should do what first?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

RUE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:23 AM

"You, however, have chosen Hamas’ side, so you won’t be happy until Hamas has destroyed Israel and made “Palestine an Islamic land.”"

Finn, I never said that. Never implied it. Never even thought it.

So please, shove your crap back up your ass insted of shitting it all over the board.

Said with all DUE respect, of course.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:26 AM

Quote:
I think I finally have a pretty good bead on where your view is, and we aren’t going to agree, because I’m not interested in choosing sides between whose righteous war is right and whose isn’t.

yes you are.

Quote:
Israel's right to exists has been forged in wars for 50 years - they are there and they aren't leaving short of the next Jewish Holocaust. At this point, all I want is a stable situation and peace,[

So far, so good

Quote:
which can’t happen while extremist terrorist factions like Hamas are in control.

Why is thsi all Hamas' responsibility to fix? The people of Gaza have legitimate grievances about food shortages, lack of jobs, medicine, free travel... ALL of that caused by Israel and exploitable by Hamas. The people of Gaza can't POSSIBLY solve those grievious problems, it's in Israel's hands.

Quote:
You, however, have chosen Hamas’ side, so you won’t be happy until Hamas has destroyed Israel and made “Palestine an Islamic land.”

No, Rue has never said that. I think what Rue means is: Israel must release their economic stranglehold on Gaza, and engage in proportionate response. You are as incapable of understanding a balanced postion as Hamas.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The question is: What SHOULD Israel be doing if it is truly interested in self-defense, and not just grabbing land? What SHOULD the Palestinians be doing? What should foreign powers be doing? And who should do what first?

Hamas has to be removed from power in the Gaza Strip. Fatah and the Palestinian Parliament can then be re-instated as the legitimate government. At that point diplomacy can then begin.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

RUE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:44 AM

"Hamas has to be removed from power in the Gaza Strip. Fatah and the Palestinian Parliament can then be re-instated as the legitimate government."

Are you calling for the democratically elected government of Gaza to be 'removed' while a non-democratically elected government be installed ?

If that is what you truly mean, why not also call for the same treatment for Israel ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:45 AM

Basically, you want "regime change" in Gaza. But that's as realistic as "regime change" in Israel.

Magic Eight Ball says: try again.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Why is thsi all Hamas' responsibility to fix? The people of Gaza have legitimate grievances about food shortages, lack of jobs, medicine, free travel... ALL of that caused by Israel and exploitable by Hamas. The people of Gaza can't POSSIBLY solve those grievious problems, it's in Israel's hands.

Hamas isn’t going to fix anything Signym. I don’t understand why that is so hard for you to grasp. Hamas is going to wage war on Israel. That’s it. Nothing can be fixed as long as Hamas is in power.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
No, Rue has never said that. I think what Rue means is: Israel must release their economic stranglehold on Gaza, and engage in proportionate response. You are as incapable of understanding a balanced postion as Hamas.

Balanced position? You want Israel to engage in a tit for tat with Hamas? How about this, every time a bomb is lobbed into Israel, the Israelis should lob a bomb into Gaza? Do you think the bloodshed would be any less disproportionate? Maybe a little. That’s proportionate warfare and its bullshit. It’s just violence for the sake of violence. Israel’s not going to agree to that, because all that does is hand Hamas a victory. Israel should use violence to achieve a goal and in this case, the goal should be the elimination and Hamas.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

RUE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:50 AM

"Israel should use violence to achieve a goal and in this case, the goal should be the elimination and Hamas."

And now we get to your REAL interest. YOU don't care about the Palestinians, about ending violence, about peace, or solutions, or simple jsutice. YOU want Israeli territorial gain from Israeli military aggression.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Hamas has to be removed from power in the Gaza Strip. Fatah and the Palestinian Parliament can then be re-instated as the legitimate government."

Are you calling for the democratically elected government of Gaza to be 'removed' while a non-democratically elected government be installed ?

Rue read something about the Middle East for once in your life, will you? Hamas is not a democratically elected government. Hamas was elected to a certain number of seats in the Palestinian Parliament; afterwards they declared themselves to sole rulers of the Palestinian Territories. There was a civil war, because not surprisingly the other democratically elected members of Parliament didn’t share Hamas’ view of “democracy” as Hamas in total control. Hamas conquered Fatah in Gaza Strip and then consolidated power. What is democratic about that?

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Basically, you want "regime change" in Gaza. But that's as realistic as "regime change" in Israel.

That’s your only option. Hamas wants war – continuous warfare. If you want to fix the problems in the Gaza Strip – Hamas has to be removed.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And now we get to your REAL interest. YOU don't care about the Palestinians, about ending violence, about peace, or solutions, or simple jsutice. YOU want Israeli territorial gain from Israeli military aggression.

So if it’s not ruled by Hamas it’s Israeli territory? That’s Hamas’ view. Once again, you’re opinion is very much in line with Hamas.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

RUE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:54 AM

Ya know Finn --- in the future when you post on this topic, if I'm around I'm going to reverse the names Hamas and Israel and repost it, just to try it out for fairness.

Like this:

Israel isn’t going to fix anything Signym. I don’t understand why that is so hard for you to grasp. Israel is going to wage war on Hamas. That’s it. Nothing can be fixed as long as Israel is in power.

Balanced position? You want Hamas to engage in a tit for tat with Israel? How about this, every time a bomb is lobbed into Gaza, the Palestinians should lob a bomb into Israel? Do you think the bloodshed would be any less disproportionate? Maybe a little. That’s proportionate warfare and its bullshit. It’s just violence for the sake of violence. Hamas’s not going to agree to that, because all that does is hand Israel a victory. Hamas should use violence to achieve a goal and in this case, the goal should be the elimination (of) Israel.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 1:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Israel isn’t going to fix anything Signym. I don’t understand why that is so hard for you to grasp. Israel is going to wage war on Hamas. That’s it. Nothing can be fixed as long as Israel is in power.

Hamas is the one that continuously violates ceasefires, but either way it doesn’t matter whether Israel is waging war on Hamas or Hamas is waging war on Israel – nothing will get fixed. And you have your continuous warfare.

And perhaps if you educated yourself a little better about the topic, you wouldn’t feel the need to resort to these childish tactics.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

RUE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:03 AM

"So if it’s not ruled by Hamas it’s Israeli territory? That’s Hamas’ view. Once again, you’re opinion is very much in line with Hamas."

Again, your post makes no sense. Hamas is the legitimate, democratically-elected government of Gaza. If it's not 'ruled' by Hamas, then it's being 'ruled' by a foreign-backed puppet government. You seem to keep missing that point.

HHHhhmmm ... Maybe if I put it in all caps, separated it out and bolded it you might actually read it.

HAMAS IS THE DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED AND LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT OF GAZA.

***************************************************************

Is that simple enough for you ?

RUE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:04 AM

Israel is the one that continuously violates ceasefires, but either way it doesn’t matter whether Hamas is waging war on Israel or Israel is waging war on Hamas – nothing will get fixed. And you have your continuous warfare.

And perhaps if you educated yourself a little better about the topic, you wouldn’t feel the need to resort to these childish tactics.

***************************************************************

I found this tibit, which I thought I'd repost, and then reverse:

That’s your only option. Hamas wants war – continuous warfare. If you want to fix the problems in the Gaza Strip – Hamas has to be removed.

That’s your only option. Israel wants war – continuous warfare. If you want to fix the problems in the Gaza Strip – Israel has to be removed.

SIGNYM

Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:23 AM

Quote:
Hamas is the one that continuously violates ceasefires

The ONLY one???

Quote:
And perhaps if you educated yourself a little better about the topic, you wouldn’t feel the need to resort to these childish tactics.

It seems to me that your statement applies just as neatly to Israel as to Hamas... a point you hope no-one else will see, which is why you call this a "childish trick". It is not. It is a perfectly legitimate logical test.

Please, Finn... study up on some logic. When I questioned you, you said I engaged in "Nazi" tactics. I did not. My approach is called the Socratic Method. This is another case of you failing to see a legitimate logical test.

Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. Don't let your logic be overwhelmed by emotion.

Please check out this link (originally posted in the "scorecard" section)

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

RUE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:23 AM

Oh, BTW Finn

"On January 25, 2006, elections were held for the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC), the legislature of the Palestinian National Authority (PNA). Notwithstanding the 2005 municipal elections and the January 9, 2005 presidential election, this was the first election to the PLC since 1996; subsequent elections had been repeatedly postponed due to the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Palestinian voters in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank including East Jerusalem were eligible to participate in the election.

Final results show that Hamas won the election, with 74 seats to the ruling-Fatah's 45, providing Hamas with the majority of the 132 available seats and the ability to form a majority government on their own."

I got this from the Nazi website Wikipedia, which has declared its intent to see a Hamas victory over Israel, or permanent war, or something like that.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

KWICKO

Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:33 AM

Quote:
Israel's right to exists has been forged in wars for 50 years - they are there and they aren't leaving short of the next Jewish Holocaust.

Just jumping in here, but how long have the Palestinians been in the area that is now Israel? Do they have a right to exist? Have they not forged that right in wars for over a thousand years?

It seems like they are there and they aren't leaving short of a Palestinian holocaust.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

KWICKO

Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"You, however, have chosen Hamas’ side, so you won’t be happy until Hamas has destroyed Israel and made “Palestine an Islamic land.”"

Finn, I never said that. Never implied it. Never even thought it.

So please, shove your crap back up your ass insted of shitting it all over the board.

Said with all DUE respect, of course.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Rue, don't you get it? According to Finn himself, arbitrarily assigning an opinion to someone else is truly an act of desperation. Ergo, Finn is desperate. Truly.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

SIGNYM

Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:55 AM

Quote:
Just jumping in here, but how long have the Palestinians been in the area that is now Israel? Do they have a right to exist? Have they not forged that right in wars for over a thousand years?

Thank you. I was going to bring that up.

Finn keeps saying... "But you have to look at the context"

Well, the CONTEXT is that Palestine... which was already inhabited by Palestinian farmers, herders, and small shopkeepers for centuries... was given to the Jews by a foreign power. And Palestinians have been paying ever since for European guilt and prejudice. MHO that was unjust and illegitimate.

So, does Israel have a RIGHT to exist???? Not in THAT context.

Nonetheless Israel exists. Everyone else has to adjust. But so does Israel.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
It seems to me that your statement applies just as neatly to Israel as to Hamas...

Actually that’s what I just said, Einstein. Glad you get on the same page.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Please, Finn... study up on some logic. When I questioned you, you said I engaged in "Nazi" tactics. I did not. My approach is called the Socratic Method. This is another case of you failing to see a legitimate logical test.

Actually the phrase I used was Gestapo tactics, and it has nothing to do with questioning or the Socratic Method. It has a lot to do with you not listening, which is what you’re doing right now.

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Please check out this link (originally posted in the "scorecard" section)

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

I didn’t see anything here that is new to me. And I think most Americans already know this. Not everyone decides who is right and who is wrong based on who is bigger, like you do. By that logic every terrorist faction in the world would be the good guys. Get rid of Hamas and put a reasonable government over the Palestinian territories and these problems can be addressed. Otherwise there’s no way they can be addressed.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:
Israel's right to exists has been forged in wars for 50 years - they are there and they aren't leaving short of the next Jewish Holocaust.

Just jumping in here, but how long have the Palestinians been in the area that is now Israel? Do they have a right to exist? Have they not forged that right in wars for over a thousand years?

It seems like they are there and they aren't leaving short of a Palestinian holocaust.

I don’t see anyone asking them to leave, do you? I think what is wanted is simply for Hamas to stop bombing Israel, not for the Palestinians to leave.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Just jumping in here, but how long have the Palestinians been in the area that is now Israel? Do they have a right to exist? Have they not forged that right in wars for over a thousand years?
Thank you. I was going to bring that up.

Finn keeps saying... "But you have to look at the context"

Well, the CONTEXT is that Palestine... which was already inhabited by Palestinian farmers, herders, and small shopkeepers for centuries... was given to the Jews by a foreign power. And Palestinians have been paying ever since for European guilt and prejudice. MHO that was unjust and illegitimate.

So, does Israel have a RIGHT to exist???? Not in THAT context.

So no nation has a right to exist if you can identify a culture or ethnicity that existed in the nation previously? That would mean that Britain doesn’t have a right to exist, since we know the Welsh were there before the English. The US and Canada doesn’t have a right to exist because we know that Native Americans were here first. And as it turns out, Islam came about in 7th century violently displacing Christianity through much of the Middle Eastern world when it over ran the Eastern Roman Empire, so the Muslim world doesn’t have a right to exist either. But Judaism existed in Palestine long before Christianity or Islam...

So where does this nonsense lead us? Warfare. Have fun.

And here’s some context for you: When was Palestine ever Palestinian land? Not until the Palestinian territories where formed. Prior to that it was British land. Prior to that it was Turkish, Egyptian, Roman or Greek. So the first Palestinian state that has ever existed was the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Seems to me that the question of whether Israel exists is moot at best. It does. period.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Final results show that Hamas won the election, with 74 seats to the ruling-Fatah's 45, providing Hamas with the majority of the 132 available seats and the ability to form a majority government on their own."

I got this from the Nazi website Wikipedia, which has declared its intent to see a Hamas victory over Israel, or permanent war, or something like that.

Keep reading. It gets better. There’s the whole part about Hamas declaring themselves sole rulers of all of Israel, which sparked the Palestinian civil war and THAT is how Hamas got control of the Gaza Strip – it wasn’t through an election.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

SIGNYM

Saturday, January 10, 2009 6:17 AM

Quote:
So where does this nonsense lead us? Warfare. Have fun.

Indeed. Exactly what I was trying to point out. But somehow, in YOUR application of principle, it comes out so.... one-sided.

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Let's party like its 1929.

RUE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 6:27 AM

"Keep reading."

So, are you saying that Hamas DIDN'T win the election ? Is that what you're claiming ?

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Silence is consent.

GEEZER

Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
The proposal to renew the ceasefire was presented by a high-level Hamas delegation to Egyptian Minister of Intelligence Omar Suleiman at a meeting in Cairo Dec. 14. The delegation, said to have included Moussa Abu Marzouk, the second-ranking official in the Hamas political bureau in Damascus, told Suleiman that Hamas was prepared to stop all rocket attacks against Israel if the Israelis would open up the Gaza border crossings and pledge not to launch attacks in Gaza.

Hamas promised to stop all attacks, by any party, against Israel in the original June ceasefire agreement. Since they didn't do it in June, why should their offer to do it in December hold water?

I'm still of the opinion that both Hamas and the Israeli government are the bullies here. I don't generally believe any statement that comes from either side without independent confirmation, and hold little faith in any of their promises.

The only real difference I see is that the Israeli government doesn't care much how many Palestinians it kills as long as its aims are met, and Hamas doesn't care much how many Palestinians it gets killed as long as its aims are met.

Note that I identify the bullies as 'Hamas' and 'the Israeli government', not 'Palestinians' and 'Israelis'.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

GEEZER

Saturday, January 10, 2009 2:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
And here’s some context for you: When was Palestine ever Palestinian land? Not until the Palestinian territories where formed. Prior to that it was British land. Prior to that it was Turkish, Egyptian, Roman or Greek.

Actually, the first nation-state to exist in the current geographic location of Israel was...the Kingdom of Israel, otherwise known as the United Monarchy. This was from circa 1025 BCE. King David, King Solomon, all that biblical stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Monarchy

The Jews were chased out of what is now Israel in waves, including the Assyrian invasion of 722 BCE, the Babylonian Captivity of 588 BCE, and the Romans over several centuries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora

"Keep the Shiny side up"

AURAPTOR

Saturday, January 10, 2009 3:00 PM

Has it not come to anyone's attention that the Israeli gov't is currently under control of those LEAST likely to use force as an answer to the Hamas problem? And yet , almost to a man, the people of Israel are in full support of this latest action by the Israeli military. It's the liberals who are running the show now. It's gotten that bad, even they think force is needed. Wonder how many folks think about that before they bash Israel.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 3:53 PM

Rapo, the peeps of Israel are as deluded about Palestinains as we were about Iraq. It IS possible for an entire nation to go off the rails of reality, and they will pay, as we are paying now.

Geezer: there is a Hungarian saying that if every European nation were as big as it once was, Europe would have to be ten times larger than it is now. The first nation state in that area was definitely not Israel, which was preceded by several kingdom and empires: Sumeria, Phonecia, Egypt, and some they're JUST finding out about. By that logic, maybe they should have a state of Sumeria.

http://history.binghamton.edu/hist130/docs/timelin1.htm

Looking back more than a two or three generations doesn't work. But by the same logic that Israel is a legitimate state, Hamas is equally legitimate... a concept that Finn keeps tripping over.

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Silence is consent.

BIGDAMNNOBODY

Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
But by the same logic that Israel is a legitimate state, Hamas is equally legitimate... a concept that Finn keeps tripping over.

Yes Rue, a legitimate terrorist organization.

SIGNYM

Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:14 PM

BDN, if one performs acts of terror, one is a terrorist. Doesn't matter if you're Jewish or Muslim or Catholic or Protestant or Hindu or Buddhist or animist or atheist, doesn't matter if you use a nail-filled vest or a Blackhawk.

One of the things I find interesting is that the right wing used to keep squealing about "moral relativism" and "lack of accountability". All I'm doing is applying moral absolutism and accountability: You are what you do, and you're responsible for it

Do YOU have any problems with that statement? You shouldn't. It's what the right wing has been pushing for.

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Let's party like its 1929.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Keep reading."

So, are you saying that Hamas DIDN'T win the election ? Is that what you're claiming ?

Keep reading, rue. Set aside this strange loyalty you have to Hamas just long enough to understand the truth. There’s more to know and much of it will surprise you if you’re brave enough and open-minded enough to read it. I have faith in you – don’t let me down!

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I would get a MUSCULAR UN peace force together (no more Rwandas allowed) with troops equally balanced between pro-Israelis and those who disapprove (that would be divided between US troops and anyone else).

I would tell Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders. The settlements ? Well, you shoulda' made sure you had legal title to the land. I would tell Gaza groups to stop shelling. I would open up the borders and make UN troops responsible for border security. I would tell the various groups in Gaza that since the borders were NOW open and would STAY open b/c Israel was no longer in control, there would be NO MORE shelling. Any more shelling, and UN troops would go away, along with UN aid, and they (Gazans) would be left to deal with Israel on their own. I would tell Israel that any more stunts like that, and US foreign aid gets cut in half. And the next time after that, it goes away completely.

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I agree with all of your suggestions, at least in their spirit. I don't know the details of the 1967 borders - whatever - it can be debated and decided in due time after a cease fire.

I disagree on the UN force being pulled if there are any more rockets. There most definitely will be more rockets from somewhere in Gaza no matter what the terms are, and it's expensive to place troops and then yank them.

And start building a huge wall. These 2 are like family members that can't get along - keep them separated or there's gonna be a fight.

RIVERLOVE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rapo, the peeps of Israel are as deluded about Palestinains... It IS possible for an entire nation to go off the rails of reality, and they will pay, as we are paying now.

What gall and utter delusion for you to pass judgment on the will and intelligence of Israeli citizens. Your stunning stupidity, and irrationally biased support for evil is appalling, and all sane people can see now that you now lie in filth in the gutter next to PN and the rest of the team that supports your insane positions; positions that cheerlead for Al Qaeda, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, Skinheads, Traditional European Anti-Semitism & Nazism, etc.all determined to destroy Israel. You are on the team of savages, enemies of civilization, enslavers of women, and barbaric enforcers of dogmatic vileness. You make me sick. Why don't you go down to Ft Lauderdale and stand proudly next to the gal screaming out the other day to throw Jews back into the oven. She's on your team. She see the world like you do. Like the forces you support and sympathize with you are psychotic, and morally and ethically bankrupt.

SIGNYM

Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:42 PM

Quote:
biased support for evil is appalling

You shall know them by their works.

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Let's party like its 1929.

AURAPTOR

Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rapo, the peeps of Israel are as deluded about Palestinains... It IS possible for an entire nation to go off the rails of reality, and they will pay, as we are paying now.

What gall and utter delusion for you to pass judgment on the will and intelligence of Israeli citizens. Your stunning stupidity, and irrationally biased support for evil is appalling, and all sane people can see now that you now lie in filth in the gutter next to PN and the rest of the team that supports your insane positions; positions that cheerlead for Al Qaeda, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, Skinheads, Traditional European Anti-Semitism & Nazism, etc.all determined to destroy Israel. You are on the team of savages, enemies of civilization, enslavers of women, and barbaric enforcers of dogmatic vileness. You make me sick. Why don't you go down to Ft Lauderdale and stand proudly next to the gal screaming out the other day to throw Jews back into the oven. She's on your team. She see the world like you do.

Well said. Bravo!

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

SIGNYM

Saturday, January 10, 2009 4:59 PM

Quote:
you now lie in filth in the gutter next to PN and the rest of the team that supports your insane positions; positions that cheerlead for Al Qaeda, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, Skinheads, Traditional European Anti-Semitism & Nazism, etc.all determined to destroy Israel. You are on the team of savages, enemies of civilization, enslavers of women, and barbaric enforcers of dogmatic vileness. You make me sick. Why don't you go down to Ft Lauderdale and stand proudly next to the gal screaming out the other day to throw Jews back into the oven. She's on your team. She see the world like you do.

Not to speak for Rue, but I think you misunderstand.

I personally don't like Islam, and I especially don't like Muslim extremists. LONG BEFORE it became an issue in your feeble world-view I was deeply against aiding the mujahideen. I could see where THAT was going. So piss off on that, OK?

MOST peeps want what most other peeps want: a meaningful job, food for the family, a safe place to sleep at night, a modicum of control over their lives, friends and community, and at least a little fairness. Any system that provides that will win over a population over two or three generations. Israel is doing the exact opposite., and they are stoking the fires of extremism.

You don't get rid of terrorists by subjugating an entire population.

So, in brief: fuck you.

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Let's party like its 1929.

RIVERLOVE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rapo, the peeps of Israel are as deluded about Palestinains... It IS possible for an entire nation to go off the rails of reality, and they will pay, as we are paying now.

What gall and utter delusion for you to pass judgment on the will and intelligence of Israeli citizens. Your stunning stupidity, and irrationally biased support for evil is appalling, and all sane people can see now that you now lie in filth in the gutter next to PN and the rest of the team that supports your insane positions; positions that cheerlead for Al Qaeda, Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, Skinheads, Traditional European Anti-Semitism & Nazism, etc.all determined to destroy Israel. You are on the team of savages, enemies of civilization, enslavers of women, and barbaric enforcers of dogmatic vileness. You make me sick. Why don't you go down to Ft Lauderdale and stand proudly next to the gal screaming out the other day to throw Jews back into the oven. She's on your team. She see the world like you do.

Well said. Bravo!

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

Since you do most of the rational posting on this, and take on the Rue et al's, I say Bravo to you. The real mystery is whether those that defend, rationalize, and equivocate for the forces against Irseal realize that their defendants wish the exact same fate for them.

SIGNYM

Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:03 PM

BTW- Riverlove, since you're a Ft Lauderdale Jew, I understand you bias. But it IS a bias.

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Let's party like its 1929.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Rapo, the peeps of Israel are as deluded about Palestinains as we were about Iraq. It IS possible for an entire nation to go off the rails of reality, and they will pay, as we are paying now.

Of course more likely the Israelis don’t take to being continuously bombed as you would like them to be.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Geezer: there is a Hungarian saying that if every European nation were as big as it once was, Europe would have to be ten times larger than it is now. The first nation state in that area was definitely not Israel, which was preceded by several kingdom and empires: Sumeria, Phonecia, Egypt, and some they're JUST finding out about. By that logic, maybe they should have a state of Sumeria.

Israeli could have been the first Nation State. (Samaria never existed in the region of Palestine.) It’s hard to nail down what happened during the Bronze Age and Chalolithic Age in that region, because there was so much going on. Multiple cultures influencing one another – it’s hard to even know what is a separate people what is an evolution of existing cultures. For instance there is very little archeological evidence for the Hebrew invasion of Canaan, what evidence there is seems to suggest that the Hebrews and the Canaanites were the same people. The distinction between them simply represents when this culture changed from being a loosing connected hegemony of individual City-States to the single unified Nation-State of Israel.

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Looking back more than a two or three generations doesn't work. But by the same logic that Israel is a legitimate state, Hamas is equally legitimate... a concept that Finn keeps tripping over.

Hamas goes back to 1987. That’s hardly one generation. Your loyalty to Hamas is misplaced. And my disagreement with Hamas has less to do with how legitimate they are (and they were never elected to be totalitarian rulers of the Gaza Strip no matter how ignorant you intend to remain), instead my disagreements stems more from the fact that nothing can be done as long as they are in power, a concept that you are constantly tripping over.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

AURAPTOR

Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

Israel is doing the exact opposite., and they are stoking the fires of extremsism.

You don't get rid of terrorists by subjugating an entire population.

I know you know this, but Islam IS extremism. From the mujahideen , to al - qaeda, to the suicide bombers and those who behead little girls in the Philippines. ITS' NOT JUST A SYMPTOM OF ISRAEL'S EXISTENCE ! Israel gave up Gaza, and it was repaid with several THOUSAND rockets being shot their way. What the hell is it that keeps some from seeing what is so damned obvious ??

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RIVERLOVE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
BTW- Riverlove, since you're a Ft Lauderdale Jew, I understand you bias. But it IS a bias.

Wrong on both counts you Nazi idiot. You said your "fuck you" for the day already. Now you can put your typing thumb back up your sorry ass.

AURAPTOR

Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:14 PM

Quote:
Since you do most of the rational posting on this, and take on the Rue et al's, I say Bravo to you. The real mystery is whether those that defend, rationalize, and equivocate for the forces against Irseal realize that their defendants wish the exact same fate for them.

I fear the only way they'd ever come to understand just how wrong they are on this issue is if they found their way to Iran, Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, were accused of promoting something like tolerance to gays , or that women should be allowed to vote, or maybe talked to a woman who was not related to them, and see what happens.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
MOST peeps want what most other peeps want: a meaningful job, food for the family, a safe place to sleep at night, a modicum of control over their lives, friends and community, and at least a little fairness. Any system that provides that will win over a population over two or three generations. Israel is doing the exact opposite., and they are stoking the fires of extremism.

What Israel is doing is defending itself from continuous attack by an extremist terrorist organization that sadly has gained control in the Gaza Strip. Get rid of Hamas, and Palestinian people in Gaza can be provided for. Maybe you think that because Israel is so much bigger then Gaza that the lives of individual Israelis are less important, but that’s not the way the Israelis see it. And Hamas will counter any effort to improve the standard of living in Gaza because they want the Palestinians under their thumb. Nothing will happen until Hamas is gone.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

RIVERLOVE

Saturday, January 10, 2009 5:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
MOST peeps want what most other peeps want: a meaningful job, food for the family, a safe place to sleep at night, a modicum of control over their lives, friends and community, and at least a little fairness. Any system that provides that will win over a population over two or three generations. Israel is doing the exact opposite., and they are stoking the fires of extremism.
What Israel is doing is defending itself from continuous attack by an extremist terrorist organization that sadly has gained control in the Gaza Strip. Get rid of Hamas, and Palestinian people in Gaza can be provided for. Maybe you think that because Israel is so much bigger then Gaza that the lives of individual Israelis are less important, but that’s not the way the Israelis see it. And Hamas will counter any effort to improve the standard of living in Gaza because they want the Palestinians under their thumb. Nothing will happen until Hamas is gone.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

Another great post on the subject. Too bad those that you're attempting to communicate with could care less what you or anyone else says on this subject. I made a reference to the news story that everyone saw this week showing the Muslim girl in Ft. Lauderdale on video screaming for Jews to go back into the ovens, and then Signy-heil responds back saying I must be a Jew from Ft Lauderdale. Here's the exact quote - "Originally posted by SignyM:
BTW- Riverlove, since you're a Ft Lauderdale Jew," Have you ever seen anything here more revealing, pathetic, and digusting?

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