Fanfic Inara - anti-feminist?
POSTED BY: AgentRouka
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 6, 2009 12:10
VIEWED: 13612
PAGE 3 of 5
Canonically, Inara started training as a companion when she was 12.
It actually doesn't seem like that's an unusual thing in the 'verse, vocation training to start that young. I think little Simon in 'Safe' was already being groomed to become a doctor, and little River for that horrific Academy Program. Certainly, none of the characters ended up in their professions by accident.
My view of the Alliance is a merging between Communist China and Amercia's darker more controlling aspects. With a Big Scary Bureaucratic Government like that, lording over all the planets in the system, and the recurring themes of freedom and the blend between eastern/western culture, I feel like my assessment fits. And if that's true, children are probably more like selected by the government for what jobs they'll have on core planets.
It's all white-washed with the illusion of having choice, but really, how many people do you know who could make determined, well-reasoned choices about their futures when they were 12 and 14? I picture more the government giving out aptitude tests, saying to the children, "This is a very exciting program, this would be perfect for you!", listing all the reasons why they should be interested. Kids run home to their parents and practically beg them to let them go. Manipulation.
That's not to say the job doesn't fit, or that the person might not be able to enjoy their job. The government would do this probably because it would think it has their best interests in mind. Hell, they probably thought River was being improved, and that she would welcome being turned into a psychic assassin. And, of course, River is an example of what could go wrong with a system like that, Simon and Inara may be examples of it working correctly.
But choice, I'm not seeing that as likely. Not with what we do know about the Alliance government, little though it is.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Yay! I’ve missed these kinds of threads! These discussions do stoke the fire to work on the half-finished, really-needs-to-get-finished fic.And it’s just fun, to break down the characters this way – thanks AR!
It really really needs to get finished! It's the most exciting WIP out there! Get to typing! *G*
Quote:
Anyway, I guess fanfic was my first experience with a kind of anti-feminist movement in the younger generation. And I do think it is, at least in part, consciously done. I’ve had young women tell me: “But I don’t want to go to college, I don’t want to work - I want to find a husband to support me while I stay home and have kids, and all the feminist stuff be damned!”
Oh.
Quote:
Certainly, this is arguable given Nandi’s situation. But then, I never saw Nandi’s “shunning” as a systematic thing, but more like the reaction of a clique to a suddenly very rebellious member.
My personal take on the dulcimer story, as I wrote in an lj meme some months back: The true story of the dulcimer destruction involved a whole lot less rebellion and a whole lot more tears and desperation: she killed her own sense of failure. The teacher ended up patting her back while she cried. She doesn't tell people that part, though, when they need to hear something else.
I figure the shunning was less formal and more tied to some ugly scenes before her departure. It makes me love Nandi that she tells it like a heroic tale of rebellion, when really.. I mean, smashing an instrument is a dang childish thing to do. *sigh* Oh Nandi.
Quote:
So here’s the thing: We are given more than one sex scene of Inara with a client, and she always seems aloof. In the pilot episode, War Stories, with Fess. She barely breaks a sweat, and her attention is on the client, not herself and her own pleasure. The little smile she gives the guy in the pilot, and her similar expression to the woman in War Stories, I always found a little creepy. The pleasure she’s feeling is so shallow, so aimed at the client, and not revealing of her own inner personality. The one time we see Inara seeming really into sex is in the comics, when she’s imagining being with Mal. That’s a big statement to me, whether it’s feminist or not.
I'm not rabidly opposed to the idea that sex with some - even many - clients would not be great. But I always feel compelled to point out that the clients we have seen are probably not those that Companions commonly service. We have not once seen her with a client who actually stems from her own culture, Core, Sihnon, etc. The Border world or Rim clients she takes on Persephone and Higgins Moon are all a few steps below her on the cultural ladder, and with the Councilor in "War Stories" we hardly see anything.
Not to mention, in terms of her sexual spectrum, Inara may very well have had "private" sexual partners within or without the Guild before she joins Serenity. Her one line on the subject of dating ("It's complicated.") is really not much of a source to speculate on. I would not find it at all contradictory if Inara maybe had a boyfriend in the past, or several, that she has experienced sex beyond the controlled way you spea of.
Quote:
I do think she’s consciously made a choice to have this kind of sex, and it’s absolutely a choice any woman can make and can be happy with. In fact, I’ve made sure to include Companions in my fics who are very happy and fulfilled in their profession. I wanted to make it clear that a happy Companion life is possible.
Which is why I like your fic. :) Among other reasons.
Quote:
Unfortunately, it isn’t working out for Inara. Otherwise, why would she be on Serenity? Joss says it in the commentary on Shindig – she doesn’t fit in her own world. There’s something wrong there, something in herself that won’t let her love the life the way other Companions do.
I do not have a problem with this idea, at all
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
So, I'm very much guilty of having Inara's role in my fic centered around Mal. To excuse myself I'll say: everything in my fic is pretty much centered around Mal.
The series is centered around Mal, really, so I don't think you have anything to apologize for. Within the series, they never got the chance to show very much of Inara's life outside her fairly unusual and recent place on Serenity, so even there most everything she does is centered around Mal. Much of Book is also centered entirely around Mal, but since there's no sexual angle, people focus on this less.
Quote:
Also, Inara's quest is kind of like Mario out to save the princess. You know, with Mal being the princess. But I do have her throwing her Companion life away for Mal - so she can have a chance at "rescuing" him - and she returns to Serenity feeling all kinds of apologetic for having left him.
I like the princess!Mal angle! *g* Plus, your scenario is entirely different than the one generally used. In your fic, the circumstances of her leaving are genuinely... unkind. And the way she throws away her life are, indeed, about rescuing. She's not throwing it away for the one truth of romance, she is throwing it away in sacrifice of his life and the crew. Much like in "Shindig". This is heroic, not weak. Unlike most scenarios where she decides to leave because she suddenly hates Companion life.
Quote:
But the one thing in AR's original post that really has me thinking is the idea of Mal having to change. Clearly, there are ways he would need to soften up before they could actually have a relationship. But, in terms of the Companion issue, I'm not sure what could be done. Perhaps the only properly feminist solution is for him to accept her profession and learn to live with it, but I don't see that as even a remote possibility. I don't think he could do it. And I don't think he should have to, that he's a bad man if he doesn't tell her: "OK, honey, go please your client and I'll have dinner ready when you get home!"
So, really, I think the only way they could be together in any long term basis is for Inara to change. I can't see any other way. And I don't think that's not due to my own gender stereotypes - I think that's just their situation.
I guess that is where we agree to disagree. :) I CAN stomach and enjoy stories where Inara gives up her job, but I can definitely see Mal accepting her job, as well. Mal is a very forceful personality, almost unbearably smug when allowed to be, and dominates almost every relationship he has, which puts him under and incredible amount of tension and isolates him, emotionally.
To me the thematic arc of their relationship is to give and receive unconditional love. Mal giving in and submitting to something - not because it is forced on him but because he chooses it - that would enrich his character and actually help him find some peace. It would involve trust, acceptance, humility. Not bad things in a relationship, or for Mal.
I think this step would enable Inara to truly consider giving up her career without any resentment because it would be her choice, not a condition, and in turn accept all the unsavory aspects of Mal's life, like she actually has been for some time now.
It's not just an idea of political correctness to me, honest. It's how I ideally perceive their relationship arc. :)
Quote:
(Mary Sues)
These kinds of stories work hard to show that the woman is deserving, but never ask whether the man is really worth it.
Beautiful point!
Quote:
So - how many fics ask whether Mal really deserves Inara? Not the fancy Companion Inara, but the empathetic, smart, tough, caring Inara? Why do we so easily assume that he's such a good catch for her? Just because we are all so completely in love with Nathan and Mal's so damned sexy?
I love you. (Down, Rouka, down.)
Ahem.
It's really true! That Mal deserves Inara is generally the assumed trut
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Canonically, Inara started training as a companion when she was 12.
That doesn't imply that it is anything but a specialized school for the longest time. Nothing suggests that the girls training at the Academy must become Companions, that they cannot leave or change their mind. My sister went to a specialised sports school until 12th grade and made the choice not to become a professional springboard diver but to quit the sport and go to university. That's the scenario I'm seeing here.
Quote:
It actually doesn't seem like that's an unusual thing in the 'verse, vocation training to start that young. I think little Simon in 'Safe' was already being groomed to become a doctor, and little River for that horrific Academy Program. Certainly, none of the characters ended up in their professions by accident.
Simon was being groomed by his father, which says nothing at all about the Alliance, and River was a special case anyway. She took college classes already before she entered the program. It's like a boarding school for gifted kids, something I am sure we can find in our society, as well. Nothing oppressive or choice-less about it, except for how the Blue Hands lied about it.
Quote:
My view of the Alliance is a merging between Communist China and Amercia's darker more controlling aspects. With a Big Scary Bureaucratic Government like that, lording over all the planets in the system, and the recurring themes of freedom and the blend between eastern/western culture, I feel like my assessment fits. And if that's true, children are probably more like selected by the government for what jobs they'll have on core planets.
That's a pretty deliberate assumption on your part, though, and one I cannot agree with. There is nothing in the series to support the assumption that the Alliance has that much influence over private decisions. I think it is pretty telling that we are shown Simon's father pushing him towards a medical career. And I doubt that the Alliance has any business choosing Guild candidates.
I thinkt he Core Alliance society is probably only a slightly more extreme version of our Western society, not nearly as close to fascism or socialism as you suggest. Which is the brilliance of it. Make the Alliance extremely oppressive.. boring black/white evil/good blather. Make the Alliance only slightly removed from where we are - thought-provoking.
Quote:
It's all white-washed with the illusion of having choice, but really, how many people do you know who could make determined, well-reasoned choices about their futures when they were 12 and 14?
Once again this assumes that the kids have no choice between entering certain schools and starting up certain careers. There is no evidence that Simon started medical school at that young an age, River went to a special boarding school as I mentioned and the Guild is more similar to a spiritual boarding school than an actual vocational training school for "years", as Inara says in the deleted scene of the movie.
Nothing makes your scenario particularly likely but your choise to assume that the Alliance is evil.
Quote:
But choice, I'm not seeing that as likely. Not with what we do know about the Alliance government, little though it is.
None of what we know actually supports your theory, either. What we know is that there are particularly aggressive agents within it that have the blessing of a small group of higher ups (why else the secrecy) and there are blackout zones on Osiris, which may or may not be tied to anti-terror legislation. The rest of the negative cast on the Alliance is entirely based on their past foreign policy and Mal's opinion, which is understandably quite biased. We know zero about what living within it is actually like because we have seen zero.
Making these sweeping negative assumptions is too easy for my taste. It erases much of what I find stimulating about the show, which are the grey area
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I like disliking the government. I already see ours as pretty fascist, so my conclusions in my head aren't as big a leap as they are to you.
Much as I like libertarianism, I also understand the need for socialism, and a lot of people think I'm extreme left. Many people consider me communist, even though state communism leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You're assuming I'm assuming the Alliance is evil for making people's choices for them. That's our western cultural bias at work.
Sometimes choosing people's professions based on what they're good at is a decent process, gives people purpose when here it can feel damn directionless. I know a lot of people in America who feel like they lead empty lives, and think somehow ROMANCE will save them from that. Yikes. That's just a relationship disaster waiting to happen.
So no, I don't think the Alliance is evil for choosing for it's people... But I can see them doing it. I feel my conclusion could be a valid one, even if it's an illogical one based only on scraps of evidence, the themes of the show, and what I know of communist states like China. Not necessarily TRUE, we'd need more information, but a valid one.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
And in regard's to Simon's father, the words he uses are something like "just grow up to be a good doctor" in response to getting Simon a needed piece of technology. Going on that short comment, it could be Simon's father is being supportive, that he's making an off-hand comment (and it happens to turn out Simon does become a doctor), that his father is actively grooming him to become a doctor, OR, it's also possible Simon's career has already been set down before him.
There's a lot we don't know, and little information to go on. Bits and pieces, gleaned from snippets of conversation that can be interpreted so many ways. Just about every conclusion is possible. That's what makes fanfic fun.
Nandi left the guild's training program, apparently, and not only had to travel to the rim to get away, but she had to become a whore and was shunned, either systematically or by the choice of the other companions. That seems like pretty steep consequences for leaving training that should have been something she chose.
Anyway. I fear I'm diverting the thread from the original discussion though, about what constitutes a betrayal of the strong feminist character that Inara represents.
I like to think my interpretation takes the sting out of Inara's career not being her choice, since it applies to virtually everyone from the Core Worlds. I'm not making that assertion because for some reason I think her career is morally reprehensible, or unfair to her, or whatever. She's a therapist, a sex therapist to be more exact. Helping people seems pretty noble to me. And she enjoys her job, and has choice in her clients, at least.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I like disliking the government. I already see ours as pretty fascist, so my conclusions in my head aren't as big a leap as they are to you.
Much as I like libertarianism, I also understand the need for socialism, and a lot of people think I'm extreme left. Many people consider me communist, even though state communism leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You're assuming I'm assuming the Alliance is evil for making people's choices for them. That's our western cultural bias at work.
Sometimes choosing people's professions based on what they're good at is a decent process, gives people purpose when here it can feel damn directionless. I know a lot of people in America who feel like they lead empty lives, and think somehow ROMANCE will save them from that. Yikes. That's just a relationship disaster waiting to happen.
So no, I don't think the Alliance is evil for choosing for it's people... But I can see them doing it. I feel my conclusion could be a valid one, even if it's an illogical one based only on scraps of evidence, the themes of the show, and what I know of communist states like China. Not necessarily TRUE, we'd need more information, but a valid one.
Well, my parents grew up and lived in states (Eastern Germany and Communist Russia, to be exact) that chose their occupations for them and they viewed it as less than ideal, both of them, so that colors my negative bias toward making those choices for people on a broad basis. :)
It only makes sense in a society that needs large numbers of particular occupations, like they NEEDED industry and agricultural workers in Eastern Germany (My father studied chemistry, against his wishes.) but the Core seems so affluent that it seems unnecessary and counterproductive to push people toward certain occupations because instead of quantity, quality would be desired. And I don't think they need to start training administrative personnel at age 14 when it might turn out they'd be brilliant, highly taxable professionals of a different kind with a few more years of less specifically directed study.
I think, in terms of domestic policy, the Alliance is probably quite liberal and generous, as long as no one makes any overtly curious noises.
Anyway, since I think that the Alliance has zero say about the Guild itself, it's not that relevant. :)
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Whoops, sorry. I'm just used to the sanctity of choice and freedom being a very American perspective. It's not a wrong one, but it's been my observation that sometimes people are left to flounder, too.
But I agree that it's dangerous to give a government that kind of power.
And that's maybe why I think the Alliance has it. Worst case scenario thinking, that's me.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Going on that short comment, it could be Simon's father is being supportive, that he's making an off-hand comment (and it happens to turn out Simon does become a doctor), that his father is actively grooming him to become a doctor, OR, it's also possible Simon's career has already been set down before him.
Okay, granted, it's not definitely said, but it is fairly likely.
Quote:
Nandi left the guild's training program, apparently, and not only had to travel to the rim to get away, but she had to become a whore and was shunned, either systematically or by the choice of the other companions. That seems like pretty steep consequences for leaving training that should have been something she chose.
There I turn the tables on you and say that there is nothing to suggest that she had to end up where she did, nor that the shunning would have had any influence outside of the actual Companion circle. I even doubt the shunning was related to her choice to leave but entirely to her manner of doing so. (Temper trantrum extraordinaire.)
Quote:
I like to think my interpretation takes the sting out of Inara's career not being her choice, since it applies to virtually everyone from the Core Worlds.
But even if your theory about occupational choices for the general Core applied, it would definitely NOT apply to the Guild, because it is entirely separate from the government, as an institution, with implied religious undertones. The exclusivity is emphasized a lot and forcing little girls to become prostitutes would hardly be in the official spirit of the Alliance nor of the Guild (a Companion chooses her own clients probably includes the choice not to have any.)
I feel I have to completely reject this theory. It's sexual slavery and Inara would be smart enough to condemn this. To assume she wouldn't paints her as a brainless victim.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
It really really needs to get finished! It's the most exciting WIP out there! Get to typing! *G*
Exciting but slow going LOL! I'm making progress though. After this thread, I put another half chapter together!Yeah, I think the anti-feminist thing is a logical reaction to the post-feminist movement pressure: You must be a career woman but also a perfect soccer mom and independent and strong but still soft-hearted and sweet (and bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, but never never never let him forget he's a man…). Makes sense that the newer generation would want to buck that a bit.
Interesting take on Nandi. I must chew on that. Makes sense, and is very sad. And yes, smashing the poor instrument was rather silly of her!
Quote:I agree. She could have had some wonderful ongoing things with clients in the Core. Kind of like she might have had with Ath, if he was a decent guy.
But I always feel compelled to point out that the clients we have seen are probably not those that Companions commonly service. We have not once seen her with a client who actually stems from her own culture, Core, Sihnon, etc. The Border world or Rim clients she takes on Persephone and Higgins Moon are all a few steps below her on the cultural ladder, and with the Councilor in "War Stories" we hardly see anything.
I do also think she's had some boyfriends. But they must always have been aware what she was, kind of like a movie star or super model never knowing if her date likes her or her aura of greatness. She’d still alawys be Inara the Companion around them.
But, since we know nothing, this is certainly an area open to lots of speculation.
Quote:Agreed!
My complaint is that it is always tied around the idea of Companion-life itself being somehow wrong. I miss the qualifiers that single out Inara. I also think this same thing would be true even if she DID have mind-blowing sex with every client, so using the sexual unfulfillment as the "tell" irks me.
Quote:I see bedroom problems for Simon and Kaylee. I really just don't see them getting it right the first time, given how young and different they are. Mal and Inara though... I see it working. Because they're older? Or... maybe just because I'm more of a fluff romantic about them? Probably LOL!
How about... just as good?I figure, they have years ahead of them to get even better at the sex. I find the idea charming that there is ONE definite sexual advantage to long-term relationships which is that if both parties work at it, the sex often IS better than with a random new partner, even counting the rush of unfamiliarity. If they don't let boredom and indifference get in the way.
Quote:Whoa - good point! Men tend to feel all pressured to please their women. For a man who hasn't been in bed much lately to find himself with a very experienced Companion... that's got to undermine even Mal's complacency!
I can accede that. I don't particularly like the scenario, on its own it is not enough to make me dismiss a fic, at all, especially since the same is likely true for Mal. Which more people should focus on. ;) I mean, how much romantic and sexual experience can this man have had in his life? When it comes to girls, he's twelve!
Quote:LOL! Well, if you squint, you'll see these very politics, and even some of the main players, in my fic. That may not be obvious till it's over (if then), and certainly the issues will be several years out of date by the time I post the damned thing, but I very much framed my plot around my "questionable politics".
Is this where we have to eye you with suspicion and denounce your beautiful fic series because we do not feel comfortable with your links to questionable politics?
Quote:LOL! Yes, that's exactly what she needs!
GOD, yes. I heart Kaylee, but someone needs to grab her feet, hang her upside down and shake her until the princess sparkles fall out of her ears. And then cuddle her.
Quote:
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME