Just for Rap
POSTED BY: rue
UPDATED: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 01:05
VIEWED: 9397
PAGE 2 of 2
Meanwhile, still waiting for Rappy to provide solid data backing his claims....
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Let's party like its 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
Larry, Curly and Moe strike again...
Guess that makes you Shemp.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Hello Rue,
In accordance with your wishes, I've catalogued verbal (textual?) offenses from the time before I entered this conversation, highlighting Auraptor, Riverlove, and yourself.
However, I don't really see this as a competition for who is worse. My appeal was not directed at you specifically, Rue, nor at anyone specifically. It should be noted I made a general appeal that this thread avoid vile insults and verbal aggression.
That having been said, it appears that Riverlove wins the four-letter-war, with bonus points for raging emphasis. Both Auraptor and Rue have been tame by comparison.
Rue made the mild personal attack (Rap = Barf) while Auraptor outright called Frem either a liar or stupid (it was multiple choice.) I vote for C) none of the above.
--Anthony
Auraptor
"Frem, you're either a liar or stone stupid."
Riverlove
"Your hate has taken you down the path to the dark side. You can't fucking give it up for a second. You're pathetic."
Rue
"Besides, Rap (also spelled Barf) isn't interested in a discussion of facts."
Riverlove
"Too bad your lowly ilk has no compassion and understanding beyond your own disgusting agenda. We'll see how your Dems do with world, but you won't hear us hating Obama and cursing him like you sorry sacks of shit have for 8 years. That's why we're better people than you, people that matter in this world. You're just a whiner, a complainer, and an idiot who cuts and pastes shit to show how smart you are. Embarrassingly pathetic is all."
"Fuck You Rue Yer nothing but a big fat asshole My days of trying to be friendly are over, permanently over. These boards suck, and yer the biggest sucker there is You cant give Bush one inch and that is beyond demented Fuck You Rue Read it, learn it, you fucking piece of shit"
"There is NO reconcilliation with these Liberal motherfuckers until they say something positive for fucking once about Bush."
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Thank you AnthonyT
I was wondering how my posts were perceived by a reasonable person. I didn't THINK I posted anything awful, and - (yes, I realize this is not a contest) - compared to the other posters my contribution was relatively mild. I appreciate your opinion, and also your time and effort.
Again, gracias and merci beaucoup.
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I've catalogued verbal (textual?) offenses from the time before I entered this conversation, highlighting Auraptor, Riverlove, and yourself.
Can you do Storymark next?
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Oh I could go sooo over the top if I wanted to, and it wouldn't be the first time, but there's no need.
All I gotta do is poke him a wee little bit in the right places every time he settles down from the foaming wild rage at reality not fitting his worldview.
Human nature is a wonderful thing once you know where all the gears and levers are and what they do.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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Quote:
Originally posted by BigDamnNobody:Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
I've catalogued verbal (textual?) offenses from the time before I entered this conversation, highlighting Auraptor, Riverlove, and yourself.
Can you do Storymark next?
Aw, that's sweet. You care.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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And yet Rue, you still didn't show where Bush lied.
Huh.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:You got nothin' Rappy.
Originally posted by SignyM:
Meanwhile, still waiting for Rappy to provide solid data backing his claims....
---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.
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Quote:You been shown- you just don't wanna see, there's the difference. Or you'r lying, yeah that's it, your hero lies, so lies ain't lies, so when you say you haven't been shown, that's now not a lie...
Originally posted by AURaptor:
And yet Rue, you still didn't show where Bush lied.
Huh.
Norman, co-ordinate....
The I Mudd Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Norman, co-ordinate....
The I Mudd Chrisisall
That's not bad Chris, but I think that your catch phrase ought to be "I submit to the will of LandRue." You agree with her 100% of the time. How's that possible unless you're under mind control, or just desperate to be in the bullying majority here.
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OK - for the record - yellowcake/ uranium, Africa/ Niger. A claim which the CIA removed from Bush's earlier speeches TWICE b/c of being unsubstantiated, and which Bush KNEW wasn't true (the CIA had told him so). But, he made that claim in his SOTU anyway, knowing full well the CIA had already discounted it. In other words, he lied.
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RiverLove --- I'm waiting for you to say THAT lie doesn't count.
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Hello,
Rue, that's pretty compelling.
I suspect that opponents will say that your sources for this information are liberally biased and factually incorrect.
(What are your sources, btw?)
Please prepare a counter-argument in advance to save time.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
OK - for the record - yellowcake/ uranium, Africa/ Niger. A claim which the CIA removed from Bush's earlier speeches TWICE b/c of being unsubstantiated, and which Bush KNEW wasn't true (the CIA had told him so). But, he made that claim in his SOTU anyway, knowing full well the CIA had already discounted it. In other words, he lied.
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RiverLove --- I'm waiting for you to say THAT lie doesn't count.
Don't go visiting my intentions Rue. I was going to say that, but now I won't. You just keep on waiting for your punching bag AuRaptor to chime in. That's the real pleasure for you and your merry band of flakes here. Me, I'm just an afterthought.
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You WERE going to say that ? Well, I'm glad I had you pegged so nicely. Thanks for letting me know.
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
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The wingnuts are predictable, aren't they?
So, Riverlove, how is it that that one "doesn't count"?
Oh, right, because aknowledging that he lied would undo all your faith and dedication to President Asshead.
And don't feel so bad about not being as disliked as Rappy. You're making progress.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Hello,
Riverlove, you must admit that you have produced a lengthy series of vile diatrabes littered with personal insults.
I think a lower-key, fact-based, properly toned response would earn you a great deal more respect and consideration in these arguments. At the moment, your arguments are being dismissed out of hand because of their tone and virulent content.
Piratenews, who sometimes has something worthwhile to say, also suffers from the phenomenon of his methodology getting in the way of his message. I find that when a careful tone is used, even your opponents will respect you.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
The wingnuts are predictable, aren't they?
So, Riverlove, how is it that that one "doesn't count"?
Oh, right, because aknowledging that he lied would undo all your faith and dedication to President Asshead.
And don't feel so bad about not being as disliked as Rappy. You're making progress.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
Another Rue-clone retard chimes in, how redundantly boring.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
Riverlove, you must admit that you have produced a lengthy series of vile diatrabes littered with personal insults.
I think a lower-key, fact-based, properly toned response would earn you a great deal more respect and consideration in these arguments. At the moment, your arguments are being dismissed out of hand because of their tone and virulent content.
Piratenews, who sometimes has something worthwhile to say, also suffers from the phenomenon of his methodology getting in the way of his message. I find that when a careful tone is used, even your opponents will respect you.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
Anthony, I already have a mother. I'm not interested in pleasing you or anyone else. If you don't like it, don't read it and don't respond to it. You're an equivocater here, rationalizing the irrational, and being quite biased in the process.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
You WERE going to say that ? Well, I'm glad I had you pegged so nicely. Thanks for letting me know.
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
Glad we could move beyond that, since I was never involved in the "lie" debate anyhow
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Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
If you don't like it, don't read it and don't respond to it. You're an equivocater here, rationalizing the irrational, and being quite biased in the process.
Maybe you should take your own advice, since your little tirades were all about things others have said.
If you don't like it, don't read it, and don't respond. Wisest thing you've ever written, methinks.
And you, of all people, calling others irrational, is a hoot.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Oh, yeah. I'm still curiouse as to how that lie "didn't count".
I'll simply take your continued silence on the topic as admission that you don't have a good reason, and just don't want to admit he lied.
Thanks.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Norman, co-ordinate....
The I Mudd Chrisisall
That's not bad Chris, but I think that your catch phrase ought to be "I submit to the will of LandRue." You agree with her 100% of the time. How's that possible unless you're under mind control, or just desperate to be in the bullying majority here.
Herbert.
The poking Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Norman, co-ordinate....
The I Mudd Chrisisall
That's not bad Chris, but I think that your catch phrase ought to be "I submit to the will of LandRue." You agree with her 100% of the time. How's that possible unless you're under mind control, or just desperate to be in the bullying majority here.
Herbert.
The poking Chrisisall
I give you "LandRue" and the best you got is Herbert? I was hoping for Melakon at least.
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Riverlove,
Since you've obviously been back to the thread now, I'll take your non-answer as a concession. thanks for clearing that up.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:Okay, seriously, this site is full of peeps that have a left-lean (which is understandable since Joss swings that way too), and being a Liberal Libertarian, that's fine with me, I get along in most cases just fine, but I DO see that there's a tendency to 'dogpile on the Repo', sometimes just because he's not in line with the understandable (IMO) outrage at Bush & Cheney and what they've wreaked upon our nation. Personally, I think the 'hatred' sometimes goes a little far, but I ain't gonna shoot no one down for it. Honestly, if this site were full of Bush fans mainly, I wouldn't even be here. But even though it has a definite majority, there's still a spectrum here, just remember what Mal said to Simon about 'pushing', and we'd all get on a bit better, IMO.
Originally posted by Riverlove:
desperate to be in the bullying majority here.
Oh, not you, AU...you just go with PN on your trips to Fantasy Island.
PS, the fact that I agree with Signy so much has to do with the fact that I have no problem acknowledging that a woman is smarter & more educated than I am
The humble Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:Okay, seriously, this site is full of peeps that have a left-lean (which is understandable since Joss swings that way too), and being a Liberal Libertarian, that's fine with me, I get along in most cases just fine, but I DO see that there's a tendency to 'dogpile on the Repo', sometimes just because he's not in line with the understandable (IMO) outrage at Bush & Cheney and what they've wreaked upon our nation. Personally, I think the 'hatred' sometimes goes a little far, but I ain't gonna shoot no one down for it. Honestly, if this site were full of Bush fans mainly, I wouldn't even be here. But even though it has a definite majority, there's still a spectrum here, just remember what Mal said to Simon about 'pushing', and we'd all get on a bit better, IMO.
Originally posted by Riverlove:
desperate to be in the bullying majority here.
Oh, not you, AU...you just go with PN on your trips to Fantasy Island.
PS, the fact that I agree with Signy so much has to do with the fact that I have no problem acknowledging that a woman is smarter & more educated than I am
The humble Chrisisall
Pavel, You didn't need to answer anything, but since you did, I'd just like to know what is the purpose, the joy, the rationale behind Rue lemming after Rue lemming asking Auraptor the same questions over and over? The same insults over and over? Her tribe is growing and the piling on is not allowing any fairness here at all. You think Liberals are right all the time? You think Rue & Signy are right all the time? You think the endless Bush hatred and crassness by other Rue followers is right all the time? I get madder at Auraptor than any of you because he chooses to engage all of you in a self-flagellating way, and I find it sickening. He is a masochist and all of Rue's minions are sadists. From your many sci-fi related posts, which I typically enjoy, I can't put you in that category. Enjoy the blessings of the sun.
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We ask Rappy the same question over and over, because he won't answer them, not truthfully at least.
Not that it's exclusive to him. You're good at it, too.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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See what I mean Chris???
There's ALWAYS a Rue-Clone retard ever-present to butt in on things that don't concern them and jump on a non-Liberals bones. How fucking pathetic is it going to get here? Answer that Chris
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Hey, I'm just trying to get an answer from you.
Not my problem if you're gonna get all pissy becuase I point out how you continually refuse to.
Have the courage to stand by your words, or shut the fuck up.
There are plenty of non-liberals I get along with. It's the chickenshits who spout bullshit, then run and hide when asked to explain it, that I take pleasure in ridiculing. You don't want to be in that group? Well, then, suck it up and answer.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Here we go again.....*sigh..
Wake me up when you guys are done bickering..
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Quote:I sometimes find it fun to engage him- like shooting clay pigeons it is...I'm tryin' to stop though, it is a little worthless at times.
Originally posted by Riverlove:
I'd just like to know what is the purpose, the joy, the rationale behind Rue lemming after Rue lemming asking Auraptor the same questions over and over? The same insults over and over?
Quote:I think that's slightly exaggerated, but yeah, the Liberal voice here is pretty loud.
Her tribe is growing and the piling on is not allowing any fairness here at all.
Quote:No.
You think Liberals are right all the time?
Quote:Mostly, although sometimes I think they push their case rather, er, strongly...
You think Rue & Signy are right all the time?
Quote:Not 'right', but understandable (I'm guilty of it oft-times as well, but I'm trying...). Another forum I visit is full of peeps from the UK, and there are lots of free-floating jabs at Americans, but I understand we've got a bad rep in other parts of the world due to our GOVERNMENT, so I don't take offense to those things, personally.
You think the endless Bush hatred and crassness by other Rue followers is right all the time?
The offense-proof Chrisisall
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Quote:Depends on how emotionally invested we are in the fighting.
Originally posted by Riverlove:
How fucking pathetic is it going to get here? Answer that Chris
Me? Not so much at this point. Anyway, when I get tired of the big duke-a-roo, I spend more time on the entertainment side.
That why I like this place, so many venues.
The wink-y Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by Riverlove:
Fuck You Rue
Yer nothing but a big fat asshole
My days of trying to be friendly are over, permanently over.
These boards suck, and yer the biggest sucker there is
You cant give Bush one inch and that is beyond demented
Fuck You Rue
Read it, learn it, you fucking piece of shit
Oh my!
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
FORSAKEN original
Trolls Against McCain
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi
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Quote:"Bad language makes for bad feelings."
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Oh my!
- Robocop
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I was looking for the soap, seems to me some folks need their mouths washed out...
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
FORSAKEN original
Trolls Against McCain
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Have the courage to stand by your words, or shut the fuck up.
Well, it seems River is heeding the second part of my advice, at least.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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RiverLove
I don't expect anything reasonable from you at this point, but to address your post:
Just a few years back when Bush's popularity was high, I was a very, very small minority voice on this board. And I took all sorts of insults, criticisms and downright threats from posters here. Now maybe everyone wasn't down with it, but I had very, very few people who spoke up in the interest of fairness and civility - I remember exactly three. You were not one of them.
If you recall, I asked AnthonyT to go through and find out where I was out of line. So let me ask YOU - point out to me where I'm out of line.
(I'll give you a hint - you won't find it. But go ahead and look anyway - you might learn something about reading people's posts instead of making assumptions.)
Your complaints, your insults, your crassness - are entirely and completely unwarranted. You are the problem. If you are looking for solutions to the 'tone' of the board - you need to look in the mirror.
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BTW, in case you can't distinguish, while I have no compunctions about being personal and pointed, SignyM is unfailingly polite and on-topic. Her only 'fault' is to persistently invite actual topical discussion.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
OK - for the record - yellowcake/ uranium, Africa/ Niger. A claim which the CIA removed from Bush's earlier speeches TWICE b/c of being unsubstantiated, and which Bush KNEW wasn't true (the CIA had told him so). But, he made that claim in his SOTU anyway, knowing full well the CIA had already discounted it. In other words, he lied.
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RiverLove --- I'm waiting for you to say THAT lie doesn't count.
1st, Bush, not the CIA writes the SOTU speech. Bush did NOT " know it wasn't true ", quite the contrary. The BRITISH were the ones saying that Iraq was trying to buy the Yellowcake, as Bush correctly stated, and the BRITISH still, to this day, stand by their report.
Under no circumstances is that a lie.
Come back , try again.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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"1st, Bush, not the CIA writes the SOTU speech. Bush did NOT " know it wasn't true ", quite the contrary. The BRITISH were the ones saying that Iraq was trying to buy the Yellowcake, as Bush correctly stated, and the BRITISH still, to this day, stand by their report.
Under no circumstances is that a lie.
Come back , try again."
Are you saying that Bush didn't know that the previous speeches he wrote had been vetted by the CIA, and that the CIA told him to remove the claims, and the speeches had to be re-written --- on two separate occassions ?
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"1st, Bush, not the CIA writes the SOTU speech. Bush did NOT " know it wasn't true ", quite the contrary. The BRITISH were the ones saying that Iraq was trying to buy the Yellowcake, as Bush correctly stated, and the BRITISH still, to this day, stand by their report.
Under no circumstances is that a lie.
Come back , try again."
Are you saying that Bush didn't know that the previous speeches he wrote had been vetted by the CIA, and that the CIA told him to remove the claims, and the speeches had to be re-written --- on two separate occassions ?
***************************************************************
Silence is consent.
It doesn't fucking matter, it's HIS GOD DAMN SPEECH! And the fact that he said the BRITISH knew, and not the CIA , not only makes it not a lie, it still holds true to this VERY day.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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You see Rue, it's all okay, because he can blame someone else.
I think Dubya has a sign on his desk that says "The buck stops anywhere but here".
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:You are fined two credits for violating the Verbal Moralities Act.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
It doesn't fucking matter
Quote:You so funny, man, LOL.
And the fact that he said the BRITISH knew, and not the CIA , not only makes it not a lie, it still holds true to this VERY day.
The British DON'T stand by it, BTW:
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/13/1097607294014.html?from=s
torylhs
But even THEY were tellin' folks what they wanted to hear...gee, how come so many on this board weren't willing to swallow what Bush was?
Tell how we were all wrong again, that never gets old.
The laughing Chrisisall
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Quote:Was I one? I think I was...
Originally posted by rue:
I remember exactly three. You were not one of them.
The recallin' Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Tell how we were all wrong again, that never gets old.
He's honestly the main reason I come to this board, now. He's just too much fun.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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"Sixteen Words" controversy in 2003 State of the Union
In his January 2003 State of the Union speech, U.S. President George W. Bush said, "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." This single sentence, known now as the infamous "Sixteen Words," would become a crucial justification of the administration's decision to conduct an invasion of Iraq less than three months later.
In early October 2002, George Tenet called Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley to ask him to remove reference to the Niger uranium from a speech Bush was to give in Cincinnati on October 7. This was followed up by a memo asking Hadley to remove another, similar line. Another memo was sent to the White House expressing the CIA's view that the Niger claims were false; this memo was given to both Hadley and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice.
Hello,
This is the information that I have been able to find on the incident.
Now, it should be noted that there is no explicit lie in Bush's statement here. He said that "The British government has learned..." Well, the British government did have that intelligence.
So, Auraptor is justified in saying that this is not a lie.
However, I hope that Auraptor will concede that the statement is misleading. The statement, as made, was sure to lead the American people to believe that the U.S. considered British knowledge on this incident to be credible.
In fact, if he had said, "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa, and the CIA has learned that the British intelligence on this issue is flawed, to the point that they have repeatedly asked me not to mention it." Then he would have been more fully forthcoming.
I think what we need to decide here is whether semantics matter more than correctness.
Was the statement a lie? No. It was a truthful statement.
However, it was a truthful statement about a fact that the U.S. intelligence agencies believed to be untrue. What was the point of this? We may choose to believe that President Bush holds the British Intelligence Agency in higher esteem that the CIA. This is possible, and if true, then it represents no malfeasance on his part. If he believes the British Intelligence is more accurate than his own Intelligence, then it would have been honest of him to discard the CIA's urgings on this matter.
However, if he believed that the CIA was accurate on this matter, then Bush has used True statements to create a False impression in the mind of the American people. He deliberately misled the American People about this matter. At which point, telling the Truth becomes less noble, because that Truth was used to fabricate a Lie.
Auraptor, what is your opinion on this matter? Do you believe that Bush trusts British Intel more than CIA intel?
Or do you believe he chose to quote this Intel in order to create a false impression in the minds of the American people?
If there is another possibility, I am open to hearing it.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Chrissy,
I accept any virtual wrist slap for interjecting profanity into my prior post. It was wrong.
However, reading the linked article you offered, there was no mention anywhere I could find of Yellowcake, Niger or Iraq. There was comment on there being errors in the presence of WMD in Iraq, but not any mention of Bush's " 16 words" in his SOTU speech.
Furthermore, I offer this , from FactCheck.org, which spells out everything entirely.
http://www.factcheck.org/bushs_16_words_on_iraq_uranium.html
Bush's "16 Words" on Iraq & Uranium: He May Have Been Wrong But He Wasn't Lying
July 26, 2004
Updated: August 23, 2004
Two intelligence investigations show Bush had plenty of reason to believe what he said in his 2003 State of the Union Address.
Summary
The famous “16 words” in President Bush’s Jan. 28, 2003 State of the Union address turn out to have a basis in fact after all, according to two recently released investigations in the US and Britain.
Bush said then, “The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa .” Some of his critics called that a lie, but the new evidence shows Bush had reason to say what he did.
A British intelligence review released July 14 calls Bush’s 16 words “well founded.”
A separate report by the US Senate Intelligence Committee said July 7 that the US also had similar information from “a number of intelligence reports,” a fact that was classified at the time Bush spoke.
Ironically, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, who later called Bush’s 16 words a “lie”, supplied information that the Central Intelligence Agency took as confirmation that Iraq may indeed have been seeking uranium from Niger.
Both the US and British investigations make clear that some forged Italian documents, exposed as fakes soon after Bush spoke, were not the basis for the British intelligence Bush cited, or the CIA's conclusion that Iraq was trying to get uranium.
None of the new information suggests Iraq ever nailed down a deal to buy uranium, and the Senate report makes clear that US intelligence analysts have come to doubt whether Iraq was even trying to buy the stuff. In fact, both the White House and the CIA long ago conceded that the 16 words shouldn’t have been part of Bush’s speech.
But what he said – that Iraq sought uranium – is just what both British and US intelligence were telling him at the time. So Bush may indeed have been misinformed, but that's not the same as lying.
Analysis
The "16 words" in Bush's State of the Union Address on Jan. 28, 2003 have been offered as evidence that the President led the US into war using false information intentionally. The new reports show Bush accurately stated what British intelligence was saying, and that CIA analysts believed the same thing.
The Butler report said British intelligence had "credible" information -- from several sources -- that a 1999 visit by Iraqi officials to Niger was for the purpose of buying uranium:
Butler Report: It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999. The British Government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger’s exports, the intelligence was credible.
The Butler Report affirmed what the British government had said about the Niger uranium story back in 2003, and specifically endorsed what Bush said as well.
Butler Report: By extension, we conclude also that the statement in President Bush’s State of the Union Address of 28 January 2003 that “The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa” was well-founded.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that o
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Tell how we were all wrong again, that never gets old.
He's honestly the main reason I come to this board, now. He's just too much fun.
If being wrong is offering up such things as Bush's 16 words as some sort of lie, then yes, you're all wrong.
I'm still waiting for ANY lie Bush told w/ regards to getting us into Iraq.
Bueller ? Bueller ? Anyone ?
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
So Bush may indeed have been misinformed, but that's not the same as lying.
So I guess we should all moderate our statements to "Bush misinformed us into a war."
That work for you?
Mike
"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."
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Hello,
I find nothing factually incorrect about Bush's statement. I think if we are all going to be honest, we'd have to conclude that the state-of-the-union statement is factually correct. And that means, by the strictest definition, that it is not a Lie.
And THAT means Auraptor is Correct.
This should be conceded in the interests of fairness before the conversation continues onto discussions of intent, ethics, and etc. which are all subject to opinion and interpretation.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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"Was I one? I think I was...
The recallin' Chrisisall"
Yes, you were. And if I didn't say it before, THANK YOU.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
So Bush may indeed have been misinformed, but that's not the same as lying.
So I guess we should all moderate our statements to "Bush misinformed us into a war."
That work for you?
Mike
"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."
Not letting you or anyone off the hook so easily. Show were Bush LIED, or admit you can't , because he didn't. and bow to Zod.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Hello,
For my own part, I do not remember what I may have said or not said back then. I do know that my outlook has changed a great deal since 2004. If I was offensive, or by standing mute failed to speak against injustice, I apologize.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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"I find nothing factually incorrect about Bush's statement. I think if we are all going to be honest, we'd have to conclude that the state-of-the-union statement is factually correct. And that means, by the strictest definition, that it is not a Lie."
It's weird - lots of laws are written with intent in mind (something I know SignyM disagrees with, and which also came up in the 'hate crime' discussion). Since you can't get inside someone's head, how do you determine intent ?
You use previous actions and statements: For example, if someone says 'I'm gonna' kill him', loads a gun, goes over to the man's house and shoots and kills him, you could conclude beyond a reasonable doubt* there was intent to murder. It would be hard to argue it was an accident, or self defense.
Somewhere on my computer I have the investigation report on the matter, b/c it was known immediately that the claim was bogus. And so, the search was on to find out HOW it got into the SOTU.
Long story short, it was discovered that that claim had been put into two previous speeches and been removed by the CIA, that the SOTU was submitted late for CIA vetting and given to underlings rather than the CIA director at the time (Tenet) as was the normal procedure, that two words were changed from previous submissions (Niger/ Africa and yellowcake/ uranium) to try and squeeze it into an acceptable form. Furthermore, the US didn't 'recently learn', it was a claim that had been debunked months before; and British intelligence already knew it was a forgery.
It is about as true as this statement is:
Every time Rap posts it's a the truth.
When used to represent this one:
You can tell Rap can't tell the truth because every time he posts it's a lie.
The missing and scambled pieces are deceptive. The investigation report, along with Tenet's later admission - that the words should never have been allowed in the SOTU - are not nearly as kind as the website Rap picked.
But even further, to get into Bush's head and what was his intent:
If Bush DIDN'T intend to mislead the US public, why did he have to word-smith the statement so much, submit it late and have it go through underlings? Why he did make half-claims and stitch them together with half-truths ?
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* Reasonable doubt is the legal standard, not possible doubt, potential doubt, shadow of a doubt, or other interpretation.
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AnthonyT
I don't think you were posting back then, or if you were, it was very, very rarely.
You do seem to have come out of your shell only recently.
YIPEEE !!!
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Hello,
Rue, I agree with your interpretation. It is my belief that there was an intent to mislead, to essentially use a factual statement to create a false impression.
However, I think we have to admit that in the strictest, most explicit sense, it was not a lie.
I think we should tell Auraptor that he is correct, and that Bush didn't lie.
And then we can discuss why we think he was nonetheless dishonest.
It's important to concede points when appropriate, if we expect others to do the same for us.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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"(What are your sources, btw?)"
Oh -- I missed this. My source is the investigative report on this. Unfortunately it's a pdf made from redacted and scanned harcopy, so there's no such thing as copy/paste from it. If you want a quote, or a series of quotes, you have to type the stupid things in by hand.
I may still have it on my computer (I'm pretty sure I do), if I do I'll try and find a link so you can see it yourself.
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Thank you, Rue. It should make interesting reading.
I love Redacted documents. I always feel as though I am treading close to secret truths.
Of course in reality the redacted stuff is usually very dull.
It reminds me of 'Unnecessary Censorship' which I believe Jimmy Kimmel did on his show.
He takes an innocent scene, such as from Sesame Street, and bleeps certain words selectively. The human mind fills in the blanks with naughtyness.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Drat ! I don't have it.
I'm looking on the net, but in the meantime, there's this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3056626.stm, and this: http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/005047.php
Here's a link:
http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/Letters,%20reports%20and%20stat
ements/senate-intelligencereport-070904.pdf Looking at it, it's a much better one than I orginally had, where the pages were crooked in the scan etc. This seems to have been done electronically with document editing capability.
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I think there are lies by commission and lies by omission. Rappy is willing to accept a very fine parsing of Bush's statement in the same vein that he accepts a very fine parsing of economic data to say the economy is "on fire", a fine parsing of "torture", a fine parsing of facts to assign blame for the entire economic meltdown to Barney Frank (I didn't know Barney Frank was that powerful!!) etc etc etc. That is how Rappy continues to think that he deals in "facts". He simply cherry-picks them into irrelevance.
Bush was told by our intelligence to remove the reference to yellowcake because they felt it was bad information. Rather than deal with the whole truth, Bush simply changed the wording to shift responsibility onto the Brits (who BTW admitted to "sexing up" WMD intel). IMHO that qualifies as a lie.
------------
BTW, as a child I would often parse statements to my advantage. I felt that "Did you take a cookie from the cookie jar?" could be truthfuly answered "No" if I had taken two cookies. I lied, so did Bush, and so does Rappy (to himself, quite often). But he doesn't consider them to be so.
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Let's party like its 1929.
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My god, just admit Bush didn't lie, and get on with your life.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Hello,
I think it depends on what your definition of 'is' is. ;-)
I went ahead and looked up 'lie' in the dictionary, and this is what I found:
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression
And I think we have the answer to our dilemma.
According to definition 1, Bush did not lie. He made a factual statement, and presented it as such. Hence, no lie.
However, according to definition 2, Bush may have lied. Many here, including myself, believe he meant to deceive or give the wrong impression.
The problem we encounter is that we can definitively prove 1, but 2 requires interpretation of the facts.
Can we at least concede that according to one definition of the word 'lie' he did not lie?
And then we can discuss our interpretation of definition 2 at some length?
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Yeah, I used to do the same thing: I didn't take it - my hand did.
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Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,
Rue, I agree with your interpretation. It is my belief that there was an intent to mislead, to essentially use a factual statement to create a false impression.
However, I think we have to admit that in the strictest, most explicit sense, it was not a lie.
I think we should tell Auraptor that he is correct, and that Bush didn't lie.
And then we can discuss why we think he was nonetheless dishonest.
It's important to concede points when appropriate, if we expect others to do the same for us.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
You know, I'll go with that.
So, okay, here it is, Rappy is right, Bush didn't "lie" by strict definition of the word.
He just dishonestly manipulated the country into a needless war. So he's not a liar (semantically speaking), he's just a deceitful, manipulative Motherfucker.
Now that that's out of the way, will Rappy now step up and answer those questions he's been ducking.
EDIT: Oh, wait. I'll go with that definition 2 thing - Bush is a GODDAMNED LIAR.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Let's not forget this tiny little tidbit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_Memo
I say - on preponderance of evidence, He's a fuckin liar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof
You asked for proof, and then every time it's given you continue to escalate the standard of proof which you require.
That's bullshit, and coming from someone with a sub-zero credibility, doesn't exactly meet the criteria for quid pro quo.
And so, as you did not specify in your original statement, and the minimum standard is preponderance of evidence, which is in fact met.
Game, set, match.
And here's some advice - better to be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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In case it got missed b/c I put it in later:
Here's a link:
http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/Letters,%20reports%20and%20stat
ements/senate-intelligencereport-070904.pdf Looking at it, it's a much better one than I orginally had, where the pages were crooked in the scan etc. This seems to have been done electronically with document editing capability.
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Hello,
Thank you, Rue. :-)
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:Exactly. "I did not have sex with that woman" was... technically... the truth. Depending on how you define "sex". But that didn't prevent the right-wing from howling to the moon about how Clinton "lied under oath".
I think it depends on what your definition of 'is' is. ;-)
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Let's party like its 1929.
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Quote:Give it up for Signy for bringing this to a fine point.
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:Exactly. "I did not have sex with that woman" was... technically... the truth. Depending on how you define "sex". But that didn't prevent the right-wing from howling to the moon about how Clinton "lied under oath".
I think it depends on what your definition of 'is' is. ;-)
If sex is defined as copulation, Clinton did not lie.
If Bush had concluded that whatever a foreign government told our intelligence services was true, Bush did not lie.
In BOTH instances, there was an intent to mislead, and like Frem said, that's f**kin' lying in my book.
But to make you feel better AU, without regard to objective truth, underlying motives, or common decency, yeah, these guys did not technically lie.
The sophist Chrisisall
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Gone for the weekend, to come back and see that, as i think everyone prediced, Rappy tucked tail and vanished from yet another thread calling him on his bullshit.
Bet If I look, he's started a new one in the interim to spout the falsehoods...
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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I never turn tail, and I never EVER spout falsehoods.
If I'm wrong, so be it, but I put fact over agenda or ideology, every time.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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No, you really don't.
Your defenses and rationalizations are utterly laughable, as long as you continually refuse to answer direct questions.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
No, you really don't.
Your defenses and rationalizations are utterly laughable, as long as you continually refuse to answer direct questions.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
I do. Sadly, you and many here are too petty to admit that , simply because I share different opinions than you.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Oh, so you did answer?
Riiiight.
And your "post the facts you like, refuse to acknowledge those you don't" style may come off as honesty to your twisted little brain, but they're still lies of ommission. This going over your head doesn't mean it isn't so.
"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."
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Quote:Oh puhleez Rappy. You ignore facts left and right when it suits you.
I put fact over agenda or ideology, every time.
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To which Rappy has no reply because he knows it's true. .
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Let's party like its 1929.
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Quote:You don't share opinions, you parrot them.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I share different opinions than you.
The squaking Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
To which Rappy has no reply because he knows it's true. .
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Let's party like its 1929.
What are you even talking about now ?
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:Quote:You don't share opinions, you parrot them.
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I share different opinions than you.
The squaking Chrisisall
Again, not true.
It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:That was non, non non, non heinous!
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Again, not true.
The Bill-like Chrisisall
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Blindness To Themselves
In fact, despite their own belief that they are quite honest with themselves, authoritarians tend to be highly defensive, and run away from unpleasant truths about themselves more than most people do. ... And when I give feedback lectures to classes about my studies and describe right-wing authoritarians, it turns out the high RWAs in the room almost always think I am talking about someone else.
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I was going to bring this up. The problem is Rappy, Riverlove, Whozit, and a bunch of others would simply assume that it doesn't apply to THEM! 
Also, don't forget that peeps like that don't come to the board to learn. They come here to "prove" (to themselves, since they can't prove it to anyone else) that they're viewpoints are correct! Each time they convince themselves once again that they're right they give themselves a little shot of dopamine... just like a drug addict. They are- literally- addicted to their ideology. And like addicts everywhere, they have to hit bottom... their ideology has to go horribly, unmistakably, painfully wrong for them. They have to have a profound life-changing experience. For some, it's an unlikely event.
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Let's party like its 1929.
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lol. I think someone missed when the great depression started. I suspect it was with the stock market crash in 2000, but it's gonna get a whole lot worse. Of course, I'm pro depression. I wouldn't mind if the whole system self destructed. Support your local corruption and hope it spreads like a computer virus. :)
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