And Meanwhile...

POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 2, 2008 02:28
VIEWED: 4937
PAGE 1 of 1

SIGNYM

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 2:40 PM

GM: The Threat of Bankruptcy

No. 2 mall operator warns of bankruptcy

Macy's loses $44M in third quarter

Deutsche Bank sues Lehman for $72.5 million

Circuit City Bankrupt

Best Buy: 'Most difficult climate we've ever seen'

American Express seeks $3.5B from feds

Bonds rise despite bailout momentum

EU backs proposed Alitalia takeover

Clothing retailer Harold's now says it's closing

National Wholesale Liquidators files for Chapter 11
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NOPE! No recession here! Move along please, nothing to see...

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Let's party like its 1929.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 2:58 PM

Sounds like you're hoping for a recession. Why all the fuss ?

By definition , there needs to be 2 consecutive quarters of negative growth. So far, there's only been 1. Looks like there'll be another, and if there is, we'll get through it like we did the last one.

I fail to see the point of all this.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

By definition , there needs to be 2 consecutive quarters of negative growth. So far, there's only been 1. Looks like there'll be another, and if there is, we'll get through it like we did the last one.

I fail to see the point of all this.

And that'll be after the Inauguration, so it will be Obama's fault!

RUE

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:24 PM

"By definition , there needs to be 2 consecutive quarters of negative growth."

NOPE. Wrong, yet again.

A recession hasn't offically happened until the NBER dclares one. And the NBER looks at many indicators to determine a recession:

"A recession is a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP, real income, employment, industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales."

***************************************************************

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong wrong ... don't you ever get tired of yourself being wrong ?

CANTTAKESKY

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:41 PM

Look what happened in Iceland. Is it a matter of time before the same thing happens in the USA?

http://tinyurl.com/62uxl8

Quote:
New York Times, Nov 8, 2008

...Overnight, people lost their savings. Prices are soaring. Once-crowded restaurants are almost empty. Banks are rationing foreign currency, and companies are finding it dauntingly difficult to do business abroad. Inflation is at 16 percent and rising. People have stopped traveling overseas. The local currency, the krona, was 65 to the dollar a year ago; now it is 130. Companies are slashing salaries, reducing workers’ hours and, in some instances, embarking on mass layoffs....

...Until last spring, Iceland’s economy seemed white-hot. It had the fourth-highest gross domestic product per capita in the world. Unemployment hovered between 0 and 1 percent (while forecasts for next spring are as high as 10 percent). A 2007 United Nations report measuring life expectancy, real per-capita income and educational levels identified Iceland as the world’s best country in which to live....

...There was so much work, employers had to import workers from abroad. Ms. Nordfjord, the architect, worked so much overtime last year that she doubled her salary. She was featured on a Swedish radio program as an expert on Iceland’s extraordinary building boom.

Two months ago, her company canceled all overtime. Two weeks ago, it acknowledged that work was slowing. But it promised that there would be enough to last through next summer.

The next day, everyone was herded into a conference room and fired....

--------------------------
Dr. Horrible Karaoke

SIGNYM

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 4:54 PM

Quote:
And that'll be after the Inauguration, so it will be Obama's fault!

But... but.... but.... Clinton...!

Yeah, he's at fault too.

Just beating you to the punch Rapo.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 6:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

But... but.... but.... Clinton...!

Yeah, he's at fault too.

I'm sorry, you're right. I forgot that part.

STORYMARK

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 7:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I fail to see the point of all this.

It's nice to see you owning up to your ignorance.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

RIVERLOVE

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 7:49 PM

The Govt. ever bail out the Typewriter Industry?
Or Kodak film, or Betamax distributors?

Companies that fail on their own should be left to die. There's always others willing to step in.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"By definition , there needs to be 2 consecutive quarters of negative growth."

NOPE. Wrong, yet again.

A recession hasn't offically happened until the NBER dclares one. And the NBER looks at many indicators to determine a recession:

"A recession is a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP, real income, employment, industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales."

***************************************************************

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong wrong ... don't you ever get tired of yourself being wrong ?

Nope. I'm right. The popular definition of a recession is negative growth for 2 consecutive quarters. That some economist don't like it doesn't make it " wrong ".

Deal w/ it .

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

I fail to see the point of all this.

It's nice to see you owning up to your ignorance.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

Well, if it's to vilify anyone for the economic situation we're in , the blame lies squarely on the Democrat party, but since it affects all, I don't see what the point of whining does.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:53 PM

"Nope. I'm right. The accepted definition of a recession is negative growth for 2 consecutive quarters. Deal w/ it ."

DOoooood - I posted the DEFINITION as given by the NBER - the place that 'decides' if there is a recession or not. Dispute them, or deal with it. Go boy ! Fetch !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:06 PM

And meanwhile, I saw gas on sale for $ 1.96 today.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:11 PM

Must be because Obama said he would put a lot of conditions on offshore drilling.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Must be because Obama said he would put a lot of conditions on offshore drilling.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Point of fact, the price of oil has come steadily down ever since Bush ended the E.O. on offshore drilling.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:21 PM

All despite the fact that no surveying, planning, leasing, building, drilling, or refining has occured.

And since Obama has said that he would put conditions on the non-existant drilling, the non-existant conditions on the non-existant drilling should also affect the price. But --- they haven't.

Meanwhile, the roaring ! on fire ! economy and its effect on speculation has nothing to do with the price of oil.

At least not in Rap/ PN world.

***************************************************************

Farewell Rap, we hardly knew ye.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:31 PM

Quote:
the blame lies squarely on the Democrat party

Prove it.

Quote:
but since it affects all, I don't see what the point of whining does

So we learn from experience? Maybe that's a foreign concept to you (learning from experience) but it DOES help not to fall into the same hole... again.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

STORYMARK

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 9:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
"Nope. I'm right. The accepted definition of a recession is negative growth for 2 consecutive quarters. Deal w/ it ."

DOoooood - I posted the DEFINITION as given by the NBER - the place that 'decides' if there is a recession or not. Dispute them, or deal with it. Go boy ! Fetch !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

A logical, factual post, that of course Rappy will never respond to. And he will still keep insisting that he gets to determine the definition of recession.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
the blame lies squarely on the Democrat party
Prove it.
Quote:
but since it affects all, I don't see what the point of whining does
So we learn from experience? Maybe that's a foreign concept to you (learning from experience) but it DOES help not to fall into the same hole... again.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

Already posted, but Barney Frank and the Dems denied putting tighter controls on Fannie and Freddie, along w/ the Dems overall being beholden to BIG UNION like UAW , which forces the big 3 auto makers to pay ridiculous prices for employee wages, 70% - 120 % higher than their competitors. And lets not forget Chucky Schumer's catastrophic remarks which caused the failure of IndyMac.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

STORYMARK

Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:04 PM

See. Ignored the fact that shot him down.

At least he's reliably predictable.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 13, 2008 6:21 PM

Quote:
Already posted, but Barney Frank and the Dems denied putting tighter controls on Fannie and Freddie, along w/ the Dems overall being beholden to BIG UNION like UAW , which forces the big 3 auto makers to pay ridiculous prices for employee wages, 70% - 120 % higher than their competitors.And lets not forget Chucky Schumer's catastrophic remarks which caused the failure of IndyMac.

You sayin' so doesn't make it so. I said "Prove it", I didn't say "regurgitate Limbaugh and restate his points".

So... try real proof.

Quote:
Barney Frank and the Dems denied putting tighter controls on Fannie and Freddie

Tell us... out of all of the toxic/ subprime loans that were written, what percent did Fannie and Freddie write? 10%? 50%? 95%? Out of all of the toxic/ subprime loans that were securitized (ie turned into bonds) what percentage did Fannie and Freddie securitize? 25%? 60%? 100%? Overall, how much of the subprime mess was created by Fannie and Freddie?

Quote:
along w/ the Dems overall being beholden to BIG UNION like UAW , which forces the big 3 auto makers to pay ridiculous prices for employee wages, 70% - 120 % higher than their competitors

Specifically, what role did "the Democrats" play in the last round of contract negotiations? What percentage of big 3 US labor cost is due to health benefits- which in other countries is provided by the government? How much did SUV sales decline when gas prices went up to $4/ gallon? How much credit is currently available for vehicle purchases? And how do you account for the parallel decline in retail sales, housing sales, shipping, trucking and airlines?

Quote:
And lets not forget Chucky Schumer's catastrophic remarks which caused the failure of IndyMac

How do you explain the failure of Wamu, Security Pacific Bank, Lehman, seventeen more banks, a host of small investment firms and hedge funds, and the near-failure of Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 13, 2008 7:01 PM

So Rapo, I'm keeping these questions warm, ready for your analysis!

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 13, 2008 8:31 PM

Still on the front burner, Rapo! Do some homework and show us what you're worth!

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 13, 2008 8:35 PM

And remember... google is your friend.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

RUE

Thursday, November 13, 2008 9:09 PM

I think Rap checked out a while ago.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 13, 2008 9:19 PM

Quote:
I think Rap checked out a while ago.

Yeah. About... 15 years ago? But I'm giving him a chance to reclaim his brain and redeem his reputation, and what's not to like about THAT???

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

RUE

Thursday, November 13, 2008 9:25 PM

Hey --- GO FOR IT !!!

If not this thread, maybe another.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:42 PM

Awww. nuts. I'm tired of wating for rapo, so Ima gonna steal some of his thunder by aswering a few of the questions right now.

Quote:
Tell us... out of all of the toxic/ subprime loans that were written, what percent did Fannie and Freddie write? 10%? 50%? 95%?

ZERO PERCENT. YEP! 0%. You see, Fannie and Freddie don't WRITE loans. In fact More than 84 percent of the subprime mortgages in 2006 were issued by private lending institutions.

Quote:
Out of all of the toxic/ subprime loans that were securitized (ie turned into bonds) what percentage did Fannie and Freddie securitize? 25%? 60%? 100%?

ABOUT 25%.

Indeed Between 2004 and 2006, when subprime lending was exploding, Fannie and Freddie went from holding a high of 48 percent of the subprime loans that were sold into the secondary market to holding about 24 percent, according to data from Inside Mortgage Finance, a specialty publication. One reason is that Fannie and Freddie were subject to tougher standards than many of the unregulated players in the private sector who weakened lending standards, most of whom have gone bankrupt or are now in deep trouble.

Quote:
Overall, how much of the subprime mess was created by Fannie and Freddie?

Overall, less than 15%. Fannie and Freddie securitized about 25% of subprime loans, but because these loans were lower risk than what was being offered commercially, Fannie's and Freddie's "at risk" loans represent only a small fraction of the overall "at risk" mortgages.

www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/53802.html

But hey, Rapo! It's not to late to redeem yourself with some independent analyses on the other questions!

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

SERGEANTX

Thursday, November 13, 2008 11:08 PM

Looks like financial hardship is the new growth strategy.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

SIGNYM

Friday, November 14, 2008 12:31 AM

Huh?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

SIGNYM

Friday, November 14, 2008 1:27 AM

Quote:
Overall, less than 15%. Fannie and Freddie securitized about 25% of subprime loans, but because these loans were lower risk than what was being offered commercially, Fannie's and Freddie's "at risk" loans represent only a small fraction of the overall "at risk" mortgages.

So, hey, Rapo- I thought you dealt in FACTS!

So, where are those FACTS, man?

I say to you... Come forth!

Or just stop blathering your stupid shit all over the board!

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

AURAPTOR

Friday, November 14, 2008 3:24 AM

Meanwhile, most of us are working during the day, even on our days off.....

Sig, you're wrong, as usual. The question isn't how many loans they WROTE, ( nice attempt at distraction , though ) but what loans they BOUGHT. And sold. By buying at risk loans, ( though none sub prime ) Fannie and Freddie phonied up their portfolios, And if the loans fell through ? So what ? Uncle Sam was there to come to the rescue. Or, as Paul Krugman explains... " although they're private companies with stockholders and profits, they're "government-sponsored enterprises" established by federal law, which means that they receive special privileges.

The most important of these privileges is implicit: it's the belief of investors that if Fannie and Freddie are threatened with failure, the federal government will come to their rescue.....If Fannie and Freddie do well, their stockholders reap the benefits, but if things go badly, Washington picks up the tab. Heads they win, tails we lose. " http://www.econbrowser.com/archives/2008/07/did_fannie_and.html

Fannie and Freddie weren't alone in the causing of this chaos, but they were clearly arm in arm w/ the Democrats. Dems pushed for more and more loans to low income/minority bad credit borrowers (Community Reinvestment Act , with amendments by Clinton in '95 ) , which lead to more home "buyers" , which caused a housing boom......

The symbiotic relationship between the Dems and Fannie / Freddie can't be dismissed or so casually ignored. From Barney Franks " ex " Herb Moses, to Franklin Raines praising the Dems.

http://www.mediacircus.com/tag/fannie-mae/

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

ANTHONYT

Friday, November 14, 2008 3:35 AM

Hello,

As someone in the lending industry, I can assure you that lending institutions needed no prodding to provide risky loans. Merely the promise of easy money in an ever-expanding real estate bubble.

I wrote a decent post on this once, but I'll be darned if I can remember under what thread title.

If you pay attention, you'll notice that the government is currently pushing banks as hard as they can to lend money, and the banks are digging their heels into the ground.

Banks do whatever they think will be profitable. They even race to provide questionable loans if they think they won't be left holding the hot potato. Right now they don't see a bright and shiny bubble, just a long, painful drop. That's why lending has gotten so restrictive all of the sudden, even with the government prodding them to loosen up.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

SIGNYM

Friday, November 14, 2008 5:44 PM

Quote:
Sig, you're wrong, as usual. The question isn't how many loans they WROTE, ( nice attempt at distraction , though ) but what loans they BOUGHT. And sold.

About 25% of what was "out there". And of the "at risk" loans, only about 15%. I answered that question, altho you didn't. So why are you still beating this dead horse?

Quote:
Or, as Paul Krugman explains... " although they're private companies with stockholders and profits, they're "government-sponsored enterprises" established by federal law, which means that they receive special privileges. The most important of these privileges is implicit: it's the belief of investors that if Fannie and Freddie are threatened with failure, the federal government will come to their rescue

Which is what happened. Which, BTW, undercuts YOUR point that Fannie and Freddie "caused" this mess.

Quote:
Fannie and Freddie weren't alone in the causing of this chaos, but they were clearly arm in arm w/ the Democrats

So what? The investment banks and mortgage banks were arm-in-arm with Phil Gramm (R) and THEY were by far the larger part, and the root cause of the problem. If you want to make this a partisan issue, the weather-vane swings more towards the R side.

Yanno, it would be helpful TO YOU if you wouldn't cherry-pick your "facts" into irrelevance.

Quote:
As someone in the lending industry, I can assure you that lending institutions needed no prodding to provide risky loans. Merely the promise of easy money in an ever-expanding real estate bubble.

Thank you, Anthony. I recalled your post altho I couldn't remember who had posted it.

So there you have it, rap. From outside sources and "inside" sources, your story (It's the Dem's fault)... blown bits.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

STORYMARK

Saturday, November 15, 2008 1:18 AM

Bump - just 'cause.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

SIGNYM

Saturday, November 15, 2008 5:09 PM

Okay Rapo, to clarify what you've been doing wrong, and why you so often go astray from the real world....

You're starting from a position (Saddam needed to be deposed, the economic metldown is the Dem's fault, tax cuts for the rich grow the economy) and then you go looking for facts which agree with your premise. It doesn't seem to matter to you that you have to discard 99 items which disgree with your premise in order to find the one item which supports it. Blinding yourself to real-world events to keep your mental model intact is not a good way to understand the world. You will be blindsided by those events, and you can then be manipulated by those less ethical than yourself, because they will cynically use your convictions against you (knowing that you will never question their veracity and motivations).

So let me give you a hint: You should pay close attention to data even if... no, especially if... it countervails your assumptions.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

AURAPTOR

Sunday, November 16, 2008 10:41 PM

You continue to ignore reality. Nothing I can say/do will change that.

Ever.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

STORYMARK

Tuesday, November 18, 2008 11:28 PM

Classic Rappy. Someone posts facts that contradict him, so he just ignores them, or claims they're not true (always without evidence), and dances around ever giving a real answer.

You are consistant, I will give you that.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, November 18, 2008 11:39 PM

I ignore the spin, YOU ignore the facts.

Big difference.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

STORYMARK

Tuesday, November 18, 2008 11:45 PM

Dude. Those were FACTS. You have nothing but spin.

Not that I expect you to ever, ever, ever admit to being wrong, but damn man. At least try to act like you have something to go on.

You're a joke.

And you don't even get it.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

RUE

Tuesday, November 18, 2008 11:46 PM

But Rap, you never PROVIDE any facts ! Just spin ! And well, the smelly brand of Rap's Crap. TM

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 12:37 AM

Story, you cherry pick the nits here and there, and claim as if that's some how vindication of your sorry ass world view. . It's not, not by a long shot. I give 100% facts, and all you do is ignore and spin.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

SIGNYM

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 2:05 AM

Quote:
Story, you cherry pick the nits here and there

Rapo: YOU accuse peeps of "cherry picking???"

Quote:
I give 100% facts, and all you do is ignore and spin.

What you provide is about 50% "fact content" which covers about 1% of the situation. Have you heard "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"? Maybe someday you'll get to the "whole truth" part.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 2:14 AM

you watch too many old cop shows on t.v.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

SIGNYM

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 2:31 AM

Quote:
you watch too many old cop shows on t.v.

BWAHAHAhahaha!!!!!!

I barely watch TV at all!

Look Rapo, I'm trying to point out something really, really important and incredibly useful: The world doesn't give a shit about how you think it "should be". And if you only see the parts that support your view, all of those "disagreeable" parts will constantly blindside you. It's like driving without mirrors and parts of your windows blacked out: Not a safe thing to do, is it?

I knew that we were going to have a terrorist attack on our soil. I explained how SUVs would eventually drag down the "big three". I predicted the current economic meltdown. How did I do that??? By NOT TRYING TO FORCE THE WORLD INTO A MOLD. It is as it is. You can best survive by seeing, really looking at as much of it as you can.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 2:33 AM

sure you did.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

SIGNYM

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 2:34 AM

Didja happen to notice the tagline I've been using for... quite a while? Shall I link to my old posts? Or will you choose to ignore those too?

Look, Rapo, I'm trying to explain something here. Something important. You're a bright guy and you know the world is a scary place. So you, of all people, should realize at a gut level that blinding yourself to large chunks of reality is dangerous.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 3:19 AM

bump.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 11:27 AM

We're not headed toward anything remotely as bas as a depression. Nice try, Nostrodumbass.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

KWICKO

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 1:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
We're not headed toward anything remotely as bas as a depression. Nice try, Nostrodumbass.

This from the douchebag who says that Obama will destroy the country.

Guess it's good to know that it'll be destroyed WITHOUT the benefit of an economic depression...

SIGNYM

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 5:07 PM

This from the guy who doesn't trust the National Bureau of Economic Research (the nonpofit organization officially in charge of declaring a recession) to declare a recession!

So, since I've had such difficulty pinning you down on (1) how to measure "the economy" (which was by YOUR metric "on fire"... if you were willing to "cherry pick" for positive indicators!) (2) adjusting values (such as the stock market and Federal Revenue) for inflation and (3) taking a theoretical approach to economics...

What is YOUR definition of a "depression"? What indicator or combination of indicators will YOU use to decide whether we are "there" or not, and at what value(s) would YOU be willing to recognize it? (And no, Rush Limbaugh doesn't count as an indicator.) This is for measurement purposes only.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 5:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
We're not headed toward anything remotely as bas as a depression. Nice try, Nostrodumbass.

Hitler was big on denial too...until the end.

Chrisisall

STORYMARK

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 5:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Story, you cherry pick the nits here and there, and claim as if that's some how vindication of your sorry ass world view. . It's not, not by a long shot. I give 100% facts, and all you do is ignore and spin.

That was fuckin' funny. Thanks for the laugh.

You do realize that just saying saomething is fact doesn't make it so, right? It actually has to have things like evidence, and be, ya know - ACTUAL FACT.

Your typical schtick is to look at actual facts - verifiable data posted by others, and go "Nuh-uh." And then make some broad claim, usually without ANY factual backing, and call it a fact.

Ideological differences aside, your presentation of "facts" betrays you as either a pathological liar, or borderline functionally retarded.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

SIGNYM

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 5:49 PM

Rapo, feel free to reply to my questions whenever you're ready....

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 5:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

Ideological differences aside, your presentation of "facts" betrays you as either a pathological liar, or borderline functionally retarded.

Oh, I think we can find something in the middle there...

isall

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 5:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
We're not headed toward anything remotely as bas as a depression. Nice try, Nostrodumbass.

Hitler was big on denial too...until the end.

Chrisisall

What's w/ you and your Hitler fetish, Chrissy?

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 6:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

What's w/ you and your Hitler fetish, Chrissy?

Hitler felt obligated to ask questions with obvious answers...

Justsayin'isall

KWICKO

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 6:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I give 100% facts, and all you do is ignore and spin.

Like the "100% fact" that 95% of "them" don't pay any income taxes, eh?

And all the other "facts" that you've been 100% wrong about? Oh yeah - you were "typing too fast", "sleep deprived", "mislead by the media" - but NEVER were you flat-out wrong, and never, ever did you lie. Yeah, right...except for when you were, and when you did.

Yeah, you and the "facts" have a pretty tenuous relationship on your BEST day.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:45 PM

I give 100% facts, isn't to say that I give facts 100% of the time. But why is it that I can screw up on that figure, 95% don't pay taxes, and you jump all over me, when Obama doesn't get the same sort of treatment when HE says something equally absurd, that 95% of US Taxpayers will get a tax cut. That's a unconscionable lie, and yet you folks buy it, hook, line and sinker.

No consistency with you types, none at all.

Meanwhile, here's a fact. I paid $ 1.83 for gas today. Thanks to Bush and Congress for removing the ban on off shore drilling, the gas prices have come steadily down ever since.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

STORYMARK

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I give 100% facts, isn't to say that I give facts 100% of the time. But why is it that I can screw up on that figure, 95% don't pay taxes, and you jump all over me, when Obama doesn't get the same sort of treatment when HE says something equally absurd, that 95% of US Taxpayers will get a tax cut. That's a unconscionable lie, and yet you folks buy it, hook, line and sinker.

Funny how if you do it, it's just a screw up (even though it was a proovable falsehood, which you claimed as FACT when you MADE IT UP), but when Obama does it, it's an "unconscionable lie" (even though it is, for the most part, accurate).

Not that you will recognize the double-standard.

But you are consistant, I'll give you that. You are consistantly full of shit. And, oddly enough, the actual consistancy of shit.

In short, you are, and seem determined to remain - a first class liar.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

RUE

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:55 PM

"HE says something equally absurd, that 95% of US Taxpayers will get a tax cut"

You never DID look that up did you ? It's true, you just have to look to find out the FACTS.

Oh, and people rightly think you're a nutcase for assuming - even as a rough guess - that 95% 'of 'them' don't pay taxes. It's so outrageously off the mark (or blatantly racist) that it reveals your big distance from reality (or your racism - take you pick).

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 7:55 PM

Quote:
I give 100% facts

Except when you make a mistake, which is why I said you have 50% fact content. The problem is, while you may be dealings in "facts" they are highly selected facts. (BTW-You ignore the world at your peril.)

In the meantime, I'm waiting for your answer: What is YOUR threshold for "a depression"? Care to put yourself out there in a independent fashion and make a judgement call?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:07 PM

Obama's 95% is in NO part ( you said " most part ) accurate!

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:08 PM

rue

THEM = TAX PAYERS. There's nothing remotely racist about that, in the least.

You're a race baiter, which is par for the course, for the likes of you. This only shows what a narrow minded bigot YOU are, and in no way is it any reflection toward me.

You're the moron.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

STORYMARK

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Obama's 95% is in NO part ( you said " most part ) accurate!

Just your claiming that it's false implies it is true, given your "wrong on everything" standard.

But go for it, show us some of your "facts" to back that. It always brings a laugh.

And your LIE is still a LIE, independant of what Obama said.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

RUE

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:12 PM

OK, so between you being a racist or a loony, you pick being a loony. Got it.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

STORYMARK

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
rue

THEM = TAX PAYERS. There's nothing remotely racist about that, in the least.

You're a race baiter, which is par for the course, for the likes of you. This only shows what a narrow minded bigot YOU are, and in no way is it any reflection toward me.

You're the moron.

Wow.

You meant all taxpayers when you lied about 95%.

Just WOW.

At least when it sounded like you were limiting it to one group, it seemed like maybe you just had your numbers wrong. But now you've made it clear that you meant everyone, every tax payer (apparently you missed the oxymoron inherent to your statement, as well). It shows how really, really stoooopid your original claim was.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Though you really ought to reconsider your usage of the word "moron" when posting something so dumb.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
OK, so between you being a racist or a loony, you pick being a loony. Got it.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

Being called looney by a loon himself is no big deal, what so ever. I'd rather be called looney by a loon or a clear thinking man than a racist, 7 days a week.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Wow.

You meant all taxpayers when you lied about 95%.

Just WOW.

At least when it sounded like you were limiting it to one group, it seemed like maybe you just had your numbers wrong. But now you've made it clear that you meant everyone, every tax payer (apparently you missed the oxymoron inherent to your statement, as well). It shows how really, really stoooopid your original claim was.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Though you really ought to reconsider your usage of the word "moron" when posting something so dumb.

/B]

Only i never lied. It was a mistake . 40% of tax payers don't pay federal income taxes, not 95% . ( We're close to 1/2 of all tax payers not having to pay fed income taxes, which is a goal of the Left, but I digress ) No oxymoron inherent in my statement, what so ever. It's clear you just like making up shit and interjecting it as you beat a dead horse.

I can say 95% and be vilified for it, called names, but when Obama says it, and he's unquestionably lying , he's exalted, praised and even voted into office.

Double standard on y'alls part is undeniable.

You're the stooopid ones, You're the morons, moron.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:36 PM

I'll make it easy for you Rap, since you seem to have no interest is facts (except the silly ones you make up ) - type this into google (or copy /paste if typing is too much of a challenge ):

obama 95 tax cut fact check

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:36 PM

Yanno, I know it's so much easier to call names and engage in arguments, but ... At one point you said we weren't "even close" to a depression, so I thought For sure he has some kind of idea what he's talking about, so...

Quote:
In the meantime, I'm waiting for your answer: What is YOUR threshold for "a depression"? Care to put yourself out there in a independent fashion and make a judgement call?

Remember: Thinking is good, and google is your friend.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

SIGNYM

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:46 PM

Are you waiting for Limbaugh to tell you what to think???

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 8:49 PM

At least I don't take my marching orders from Cindy Sheehan or Al Franken.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

STORYMARK

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Wow.

You meant all taxpayers when you lied about 95%.

Just WOW.

At least when it sounded like you were limiting it to one group, it seemed like maybe you just had your numbers wrong. But now you've made it clear that you meant everyone, every tax payer (apparently you missed the oxymoron inherent to your statement, as well). It shows how really, really stoooopid your original claim was.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Though you really ought to reconsider your usage of the word "moron" when posting something so dumb.

/B]

Only i never lied. It was a mistake . 40% of tax payers don't pay federal income taxes, not 95% . ( We're close to 1/2 of all tax payers not having to pay fed income taxes, which is a goal of the Left, but I digress ) No oxymoron inherent in my statement, what so ever. It's clear you just like making up shit and interjecting it as you beat a dead horse.

I can say 95% and be vilified for it, called names, but when Obama says it, and he's unquestionably lying , he's exalted, praised and even voted into office.

Double standard on y'alls part is undeniable.

You're the stooopid ones, You're the morons, moron.

That's the best you can do?

Once again - when you do it, you say it's a mistake, when someone else does it - baldfaced lie.

And the only reason you were villified, is that you claim to ALWAYS use hard facts, and you got caught making it up, plain and simple.

And then, you keep accusing ME of making shit up. Please, name one instance of this.

And there was an oxymoron there, dipshit. Just becuase you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

Here, let me spell it out for you. You said: 95% Taxpayers weren't paying taxes.

That is an oxymoron by definition, you blithering halfwit.

If you're going to call others stupid, you might just want to put a little effort into sounding coherent in your attempt. Oh, and actually having real info, not made up AUfacts would help, too.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

STORYMARK

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:09 PM

And meanwhile...

Rapy is ignoring several very simple, direct questions.

He'll call names though. Cause it makes him feel like less of a coward.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

SIGNYM

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:39 PM

Quote:
At least I don't take my marching orders from Cindy Sheehan or Al Franken.

Good! That makes two of us!

But you're obviously avoiding the question.

Since you said we weren't "anywhere near" a depression, I got the impression you knew where it was and if we were getting close. So, what is your definition of a depression? How we will know whether or not we're "close" to one, actually in it, or far far away?

Cmon, man! Now's your time to be bold! Be brave! Make a statement!

The floor is yours!

(And remember- google is your friend.)

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 9:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

You're the stooopid ones, You're the morons, moron.

And here it is, the childish descent on the part of an educated dude that can't properly process info without the aid of an interpreter. Ask him what he can't address & it's off to 5-year-old-ville.
High intelligence coupled with severely arrested emotional development can be a bitch.

isall

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 11:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
And meanwhile...

Rapy is ignoring several very simple, direct questions.

He'll call names though. Cause it makes him feel like less of a coward.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

I'm ignoring nothing. And you're the coward, that's not name calling either. That's just a fact.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 11:20 PM

Sig, I'm not playing your game. Go play w/ yourself.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

RUE

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 11:44 PM

Oh c'mon Rap ---

You can redeem yourself by engaging in thoughtful, fact-based discussion. And at this point the only one who's giving you the opportunity is SignyM. Why so snarky to the only one on the board who seems willing to tolerate you ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

AURAPTOR

Wednesday, November 19, 2008 11:55 PM

Me redeeming myself toward you folks would be like Churchill redeeming himself to Joseph Goebbels.

Too damn funny, you are.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:07 AM

Quote:
Sig, I'm not playing your game. Go play w/ yourself.

I don't know what game you think I'm playing, Rapo. It's not a game, it's called "discussion".

I'm asking you for your viewpoint about what a depression looks like. I'm looking for a clear-cut threshold, indicator, or definition. Since I'm asking about YOUR opinion, I'm not expecting a treatise on the topic- in fact, I don't know what a "depression" looks like myself. I had to look it up on the internet.

So.

Are you so afraid that I'm gonna jump down your throat and call you names if I disagree?

I won't, I promise.

C'mon Rapo.

What's so hard about expressing an opinion?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

RUE

Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:09 AM

Rap

What's so bad about thoughtful, fact-based discussion ?

edited
***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:18 AM

Rue, can you modify your post?

I'm not trying to be aggressive, just trying to get a low-key discussion going.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

KWICKO

Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:24 AM

Quote:

At least I don't take my marching orders from Cindy Sheehan or Al Franken.

But how is taking them from Rush any better? How is taking your marching orders from ANY talking head acceptable?

KWICKO

Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:26 AM

Quote:

Me redeeming myself toward you folks would be like Churchill redeeming himself to Joseph Goebbels.

...and there it is.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 20, 2008 12:59 AM

Quote:
Sig, I'm not playing your game. Go play w/ yourself.- Rapo

I don't know what game you think I'm playing, Rapo. It's not a game, it's called "discussion". I'm asking you for your viewpoint about what a depression looks like. I'm looking for a clear-cut threshold, indicator, or definition. Since I'm asking about YOUR opinion, I'm not expecting a treatise on the topic- in fact, I don't know what a "depression" looks like myself. I had to look it up on the internet. So. Are you so afraid that I'm gonna jump down your throat and call you names if I disagree? I won't, I promise.

C'mon Rapo.
What's so hard about expressing an opinion?

Or just discussing a topic?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

KWICKO

Thursday, November 20, 2008 1:10 AM

Because he's already said his piece, and therefore it's a "fact", and there's nothing left to discuss, in his view. ;)

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 20, 2008 1:46 AM

What say you, rapo?

Here I am... holding out the hand of friendship. I sincerely want to know what you think. So....?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 20, 2008 6:27 AM

Rapo, normally you tell us your opinions w/o hesitation! What's the problem?

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 20, 2008 4:16 PM

Okay, one last try.

I think you're afraid that I'm going to take your definition, rip it off ya and beat you over the head with it. Play twenty questions to corner you into saying that we ARE in a depression, or pick it apart and then imply you're a moron.

I personally don't think I'm THAT smart. And since I myself didn't know what a definition for "depression" might be I had to go look it up on the inet. By any definition I could find I agree with you: We're not anywhere close to being in a depression. (I think we're headed in that direction, but... not there yet.)

But what I'd simply like to know is: What is YOUR signpost for an economic depression? GDP falling more than X%? Unemployment above Y%? Bankruptcies greater than Z%? Two of three? Something else? I just want to get a sense of your "metric" so if we approach that tipping point in the future we'll be comparing apples to apples.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

STORYMARK

Thursday, November 20, 2008 6:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
And meanwhile...

Rapy is ignoring several very simple, direct questions.

He'll call names though. Cause it makes him feel like less of a coward.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

I'm ignoring nothing. And you're the coward, that's not name calling either. That's just a fact.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

Hey, man. You're the one not answering the questions, over and over.

i know this is the thing you can't stand to hear - but just because you claim something, doesn't make it true.

You are actuially displaying cowardly behavior, I'm just pointing it out.

On the flip side, I asked you to point to one instance where I did the same, or in any way earned the title coward, and you not only didn't provide it - but simply insisted it was true because you said it was.

You ae truely, staggeringly, pathetic.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:07 PM

Quote:
I'm ignoring nothing.

Uh....

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:42 PM

Okay, I guess Rapo's silence speaks for itself.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

STORYMARK

Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:45 PM

Silence is the only thing of substance he has to say.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

RUE

Thursday, November 20, 2008 7:50 PM

Rap is clearly not only biting but enthusiastically chewing off the one hand feeding him a little friendship.

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, December 2, 2008 12:48 AM

You expected anything less ?

Oh, and...

It's official: US has been in a recession all year
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081201/ap_on_bi_ge/recession;_ylt=AifzntW
W7JA6OS3hzZNWvLCs0NUE

He wanted a cite, there, now he has one, expect more silence or a temper tantrum to follow.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

AURAPTOR

Tuesday, December 2, 2008 2:28 AM

I guess we're in a recession.

Doesn't feel as bad as we were told though.

Huh.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "