A Question for Mr. Obama.

POSTED BY: Wulfenstar
UPDATED: Friday, November 21, 2008 16:37
VIEWED: 8180
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RUE

Thursday, November 13, 2008 2:14 AM

Hey Wulfie --- I'm go glad you hate me now.

It didn't take long to scratch through your pretense of reasonableness down to your hate, did it ?

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Silence is consent.

ANTHONYT

Thursday, November 13, 2008 2:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Hey Wulfie --- I'm go glad you hate me now.

It didn't take long to scratch through your pretense of reasonableness down to your hate, did it ?

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Silence is consent.

Hello,

I doubt very much that Wulf hates you, Rue.

Even when I strongly disagree with someone, I don't typically hate them.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

RUE

Thursday, November 13, 2008 2:49 AM

He's attacked me with every kind of slur there is - and not just on this thread but others - just b/c I say things he disagrees with. He hates pretty much full-time - and hate seems to be his first (and only) reaction to opposition.

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Silence is consent.

ANTHONYT

Thursday, November 13, 2008 3:01 AM

Hello,

Well, if I failed to voice my opposition to such slurs, I apologize. There's no place for that kind of talk here.

I try to chime in when I see such things, but sometimes they get away from me.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

RUE

Thursday, November 13, 2008 3:15 AM

AnthonyT

That is extremely considerate of you. I have the sense you really do try to walk your talk, as the saying goes, and that your personal expectations of yourself in terms of being honorable are very high.

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Silence is consent.

KWICKO

Thursday, November 13, 2008 3:41 AM

Wulf, you have a woefully inadequate understanding of "free speech" and the protections offered under the Constitution - an understanding that is all too common in these times. Your right of free speech merely means that you can't be IMPRISONED for exercising that right - and even that isn't always the case (see above about yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater, for example). It absolutely DOES NOT guarantee you the right to say whatever you want with absolutely no consequences to yourself at all.

I have a very few customers in my line of work whom I don't much care for. If I start blowing up on them and ranting at them about how I *really* feel about a chosen few of them, you can bet your ass that I'm going to get fired from my job, and damned quick, too. And the owner of the business would be well within her rights to do so - and would be acting irresponsibly if she DIDN'T fire my ass in such a situation. So in that sense, I don't have an absolute right to "free speech". However, in that case, I also need have no fear of being taken away and imprisoned for my utterings.

So the football player mentioned previously has lost his "ride", and may in fact be kicked out of that particular school. But you'll also note that he has NOT been arrested or put in prison. In that sense, he is indeed free to believe and say these things, but he doesn't have the freedom to enjoy a top-rate education on a scholarship while doing so.

Oh, and Anthony? Thanks you for maintaining a calm and reasonable tone. You're an inspiration for us mere mortals. (little joke there)

Mike

RUE

Thursday, November 13, 2008 8:27 PM

Obama's Win Brings Racist Remarks From Europe
by Linton Weeks

Comments Heard 'Round The World

In Germany, the Berlin chapter of the American Jewish Committee protested a statement released by Juergen Gansel, a state legislator and member of the extreme-right National Democratic Party. The statement was titled "Africa conquers the White House."

According to AFP news service, Gansel asserted that Obama hopes to destroy America's "white identity" and that multiculturalists in America are trying to destroy other "pure" national identities. A Berlin newspaper referred to the White House as "Uncle Barack's Cabin," playing on the famous 19th century U.S. novel decrying slavery, Uncle Tom's Cabin. The editor told the German press that the headline was satirical.

A recent story in The Washington Post listed examples of international insensitivity: An Austrian journalist said on television that Americans must still be racists to make such a big deal about sending a black couple to the White House. He went on to say that he "wouldn't want the Western world to be directed by a black man." He said, "If you say that is a racist comment, you're right. Without a doubt."

In Poland, a legislator said that the election heralds "the end of the white man's civilization" and that Obama is a "crypto-communist" who would surely prove disastrous for America. He apologized for the assertions.

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said Obama is "young, handsome and even suntanned." He said later he was just joking.

Remember Earl Butz, secretary of agriculture under Presidents Nixon and Ford, who told a stupid joke and got fired? Or Cincinnati Reds owner Marge Schott? Or Los Angeles Police Department detective Mark Fuhrman? Each of those people let slip their inner racist and paid the price.

And, as Asim points out, bigotry and insensitivity are still very present in the U.S., even though the country just elected a person of color to its highest office. Just check out the comments about Obama stories on public message boards.

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Silence is consent.

RUE

Thursday, November 13, 2008 10:29 PM

http://mediamatters.org/items/200811130002?f=h_top

Women, minorities, autistic children: Conservative radio's vitriol not reserved for Obama

As Media Matters for America documented, the nationwide network of conservative radio hosts -- personalities without the national prominence of Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh -- engaged in an all-out effort to foment hate and suspicion of Barack Obama by participating actively in an echo chamber of smears and falsehoods about the primary candidate and then Democratic nominee. But these same radio hosts were by no means discerning in their vitriol and did not save their ire solely for Obama. The smears ran the gamut, both in the context of the 2008 election, as Media Matters noted in the previous report, and beyond. Immigrants, female politicians (and women in general), the LGBT community, the poor and homeless, minorities, progressives, unions, college students, and even autistic children were targets of these radio personalities' invective. Media Matters and Colorado Media Matters have compiled some of their more noteworthy attacks on these groups.

Immigrants

In discussing immigration reform or immigration in general, conservative talk-radio hosts have repeatedly smeared immigrants -- Latino immigrants in particular -- as violent, uncivilized, or having sinister motives against the United States. Media Matters has documented several instances of talk-radio hosts baselessly blaming undocumented immigrants for the mortgage crisis, citing bogus statistics -- refuted by the Department of Housing and Urban Development -- to claim that they held a significant percentage of subprime loans.

G. Gordon Liddy
G. Gordon Liddy smeared undocumented Mexican immigrants, claiming they "want to reconquer America, they say"

On the June 5 broadcast of his radio show, G. Gordon Liddy asserted: "[T]he problem that I have is with people who come over here and instead of wanting to become Americans, you know, fly the American flag, learn English, and so forth, they want to fly the Mexican flag, they want to speak Spanish, you know, and other varieties of illegal alien." Liddy later added: "They want to reconquer America, they say."

Jim Quinn, Lee Rodgers
Conservative radio hosts claimed HUD said 5 million illegal immigrants were given subprime mortgages, despite HUD's reported denials

On October 10, KSFO's Lee Rodgers repeated a variation of the claim that the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) reported that it gave "5 million illegal aliens" subprime loans which have not been paid back. The same day, Quinn & Rose's Jim Quinn also claimed that "[f]ive million of these bad mortgages went to illegal aliens" without citing a source for the figure. But neither noted that HUD has reportedly stated that this statistic is false.

Michael Savage
Savage: "Illegal aliens" have "raped and disheveled" the Statue of Liberty

Discussing the Italian government's reported decision to deploy soldiers on city streets to combat violent crime allegedly committed by illegal immigrants, Michael Savage said during the August 4 broadcast of his radio show: "So they've done there what we need to do here. We need to get our troops out of Iraq and put them on the streets of America to protect us from the scourge of illegal immigrants who are running rampant across America, killing our police for sport, raping, murdering like a scythe across America while the liberal psychos are telling us they come here to work." Savage added: "[Y]ou turn on the cable news, they're covering again a missing child. Not a missing country but a missing child. ... We hear about the rape of a woman, but not about the rape of the Statue of Liberty. The Statue of Liberty is crying, she's been raped and disheveled -- raped and disheveled by illegal aliens."

Savage: "We're getting refugees now who have never used a telephone, a toothbrush, or toilet paper. ... [T]hey never assimilate. And then their children become gang-bangers"

Michael Savage asserted on the June 23 broadcast of his

WULFENSTAR

Friday, November 14, 2008 12:00 AM

Long winded and tired, Rue

Free Speech, yet again. But let me make it clear.

The Bill of No Rights:

We the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid any more riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior and secure the blessings of debt free liberty to ourselves and our great great-great grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt ridden, delusional, and other liberal bedwetters.
We hold these truths to be self-evident: That a whole lot of people were confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim that they require a Bill of Non Rights.

ARTICLE I -- You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV or any form of wealth.

More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything.

ARTICLE II -- You do not have the right to never be offended.

This country is based on freedom, and that means the freedom for everyone, not just you! You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the world is full of idiots and probably always will be.

ARTICLE III -- You do not have the right to be free from harm.

If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful. Do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.

ARTICLE IV -- You do not have the right to free food and housing.

Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generations of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes.

ARTICLE V -- You do not have the right to free health care.

That would be nice but, from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in government run health care.

ARTICLE VI -- You do not have the right to physically harm other people.

If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim or kill someone, don't be surprised if the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair.

ARTICLE VII -- You do not have the right to the possessions of others.

If you rob, cheat or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big screen TV or a life of leisure.

ARTICLE VIII -- You don't have the right to demand that our children risk their lives in foreign wars to soothe your aching conscience.

We hate oppressive governments and won't lift a finger to stop you from going to fight, if you'd like. However, we do not enjoy parenting the entire world and do not want to spend so much of our time battling each and every little tyrant with a military uniform and a funny hat.

ARTICLE IX -- You don't have the right to a job.

All of us sure want all of you to have one, and will gladly help you in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful.

ARTICLE X -- You do not have the right to happiness.

Being an American means that you have the right to pursue happiness -- which by the way, is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an over abundance of idiotic laws created by those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights

ANTHONYT

Friday, November 14, 2008 12:07 AM

Hello,

Wow. That is horrible.

I think I remember once, Rue, you and I had a disagreement. I said that surely somewhere in the U.S. there must be a conservative radio or television personality who hadn't made offensive remarks or insults. You asserted that there were none who were clean, and challenged me to prove otherwise.

I still have no evidence of a forthright, clean speaking conservative personality. I still believe one must exist. Somewhere.

But I can likewise see why you don't think there is one. I'm appalled at the massive breadth and depth of putridity displayed here. I must not tune in to the 'correct' media, because I had no idea popular voices still spouted this kind of wretched vitriol.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

KWICKO

Friday, November 14, 2008 12:15 AM

Quote:

I still have no evidence of a forthright, clean speaking conservative personality. I still believe one must exist. Somewhere.

Anthony, you're probably right - but said conservative's audience would seem to be vanishingly small. If he or she is out there, they're certainly not getting the ratings of the others...

WULFENSTAR

Friday, November 14, 2008 12:16 AM

Ahem...

The Bill of No Rights:

We the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid any more riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior and secure the blessings of debt free liberty to ourselves and our great great-great grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt ridden, delusional, and other liberal bedwetters.
We hold these truths to be self-evident: That a whole lot of people were confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim that they require a Bill of Non Rights.

ARTICLE I -- You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV or any form of wealth.

More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything.

ARTICLE II -- You do not have the right to never be offended.

This country is based on freedom, and that means the freedom for everyone, not just you! You may leave the room, turn the channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the world is full of idiots and probably always will be.

ARTICLE III -- You do not have the right to be free from harm.

If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful. Do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.

ARTICLE IV -- You do not have the right to free food and housing.

Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generations of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes.

ARTICLE V -- You do not have the right to free health care.

That would be nice but, from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in government run health care.

ARTICLE VI -- You do not have the right to physically harm other people.

If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim or kill someone, don't be surprised if the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair.

ARTICLE VII -- You do not have the right to the possessions of others.

If you rob, cheat or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big screen TV or a life of leisure.

ARTICLE VIII -- You don't have the right to demand that our children risk their lives in foreign wars to soothe your aching conscience.

We hate oppressive governments and won't lift a finger to stop you from going to fight, if you'd like. However, we do not enjoy parenting the entire world and do not want to spend so much of our time battling each and every little tyrant with a military uniform and a funny hat.

ARTICLE IX -- You don't have the right to a job.

All of us sure want all of you to have one, and will gladly help you in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful.

ARTICLE X -- You do not have the right to happiness.

Being an American means that you have the right to pursue happiness -- which by the way, is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an over abundance of idiotic laws created by those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights

RUE

Friday, November 14, 2008 12:21 AM

Hello to you both

I cruised over to a website that I visit on occasion and just stumbled across it. Man, I got tired just reading it. Somebody put an awful lot of work into getting all that information together.

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Silence is consent.

ANTHONYT

Friday, November 14, 2008 12:24 AM

Hello,

I'm sorry to interrupt the flow of this thread.

Wulf, did you denigrate Rue's heritage as a Polish person?

And if so, did you apologize?

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

WULFENSTAR

Friday, November 14, 2008 12:31 AM

I think I did.

After being called everything up to and including a Nazi...well, this little Wulf huffed and puffed and blew a hole in Rues whole self-image.

So, I may have gotten a little heated and told her to shut her stupid Pollock mouth...Which, while seeming funny at the time, and a little vicious to boot, may have been the wrong thing to say.

I give as good as I get, but sinking to their level is never appropriate.

RUE

Friday, November 14, 2008 12:39 AM

Wulf

I have NEVER called you a Nazi.

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Silence is consent.

RUE

Friday, November 14, 2008 12:46 AM

For the record, this is what Wulf posted:

You, nor the liberal ilk, can force churches to marry people.
No, I don't think gays should get "married". They (gays) can have the same rights as married people under civil unions. But marriage is a religious institution.
You are so bitter ... that you need a scapegoat ... "evil white males",
It the EWM that stopped you from getting that job. Not your own inexperience, ineptitude or attitude.
Can't buy that McMansion? Its the EWM that prevent women from getting a loan. Not, your bad credit.
No guys ask you out? EWM ALWAYS go for the pretty, stupid ones. Right? It has nothing to do with your attitude, your mouth, YOUR looks, or the idea that only Brad Pitt is good looking enough for you. Right? Not to mention that Brad Pitt also has to always agree with you.
So, you maybe go gay. EWMs AGAIN stand in your way. How dare THEY say you can't get MARRIED??!! Civil UNIONS ARNT GOOD ENOUGH, dammit. Sure, you would have all the rights and privileges, such as there are, from being married...but oh hell no!. You want a CHURCH TO HAVE TO MARRY YOU. After all, how would you walk your "bride" down the aisle?
Damn, Rue, you are really fucked up.
So, how about next time you think of opening your stupid Pollock mouth.... Don't.

I don't believe I have ever read such a hate-filled post. But I guess it comes from a hate-filled (and supremely ignorant) person.

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Silence is consent.

SIGNYM

Friday, November 14, 2008 1:13 AM

Wulf, you're the kind of person that sometimes makes me think gun control is a good thing. Weren't you the person who just recently posted that a bullet could change history by changing the Presidency? Yanno, in all my my hatred for Bush, I have NEVER said that. You're off the deep end, friend.

From all of your posts, I gather that you're very very angry. And, yes, a white male too. So just remember- the best gun control is SELF-control.

Oh BTW- FWIW I thought your post to Rue was as vicious and angry and spiteful as anything I've ever read here, and that's saying something.
---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

ANTHONYT

Friday, November 14, 2008 1:15 AM

Hello,

As an exercise in civility and the appropriate use of social pressure to influence behavior...

I'd like to see an apology. Not an explanation or justification.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

RUE

Friday, November 14, 2008 2:09 AM

Thank you for your posts.

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Silence is consent.

RUE

Friday, November 14, 2008 2:29 AM

AnthonyT

And just to further the (off)topic a bit -

There probably are conservative professional opiners who don't stoop to maligning others. I'd even say the occasional slip is tolerable (though a professional opiner said that people in the business are extremely aware of their words at any given moment). But I think that in an oversaturated market, how does one conservative distinguish him/herself from another, especially in competition with Rush and Ann and Sean ? And moderation probably doesn't get ratings anyway.

So it doesn't surprise me that a substantial fraction of conservative opiners do resort to crude insults, mis-characterizations and so on.

What I think the sad result is that while they are intentionally doing what they do for the calculated reason of money, there are those people in the audience who mistake it for truth and normal discussion. And they become habituated to it so that they don't even know what it is. The result is people who think hate is normal, insults are discussion, and lies are facts.

What do you think ?

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Silence is consent.

ANTHONYT

Friday, November 14, 2008 2:46 AM

Hello,

I think I am very grateful that a rational, well spoken leader with a generally positive message has been elected into the highest office of the land. I hope that the conservatives across the nation see this as the preferred tone for success, and I hope that a new conservative party is born from the ashes of the old: one based on ideas and ideals, based on positive principles, and not negative stereotyping and criticism.

And I think we see evidence, with so many usual conservatives voting for a liberal president, that the majority of America does not share the values of negativity. Perhaps not even the majority of conservatives.

I think we are about to witness the culling of the herd, as bad ideas are forced to die so that good ideas and good principles can thrive.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

RUE

Friday, November 14, 2008 2:51 AM

You almost make me want to be a new conservative ...

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

WULFENSTAR

Friday, November 14, 2008 3:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

As an exercise in civility and the appropriate use of social pressure to influence behavior...

I'd like to see an apology. Not an explanation or justification.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

Fair enough AnthonyT,

Rue, it was inappropriate of me to malign your Polish heritage. I apologize for that.

It was uncalled for, and spiteful. These things you did not deserve.

I further admit that I may be venting towards you, much of the anger I have at people (with similar views/opinions/policies) who have made my life quite difficult.

For that too, I also apologize.

I will endeavor to keep things more civil in the future.

ANTHONYT

Friday, November 14, 2008 3:40 AM

Hello,

Thank you, Wulf. It's no small thing to admit you were wrong. I hate doing it, myself.

And now we can resume our regularly scheduled programming. :-)

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, November 14, 2008 3:40 AM

Wow.

No excuse Wulf, that was over the top and you damn well know it - man up and do the right thing, dude.
(EDIT: I see you did, good on ya, then)

As for the longwinded but informative (to others) picking apart of what I call "hate radio", it's no surprise to me whatever as you all have repeatedly seen me reference it when calling someone out for bringing that exact same trash here - more often than not on the very same day it was uttered, with verbatim quotes on the topic of the day.

Sad fact is that this is where some folk get their ideas about the world around them, and that being the case, is it really any wonder that their perceptions are so hateful and distorted ?

-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

KWICKO

Friday, November 14, 2008 5:03 AM

Quote:

I think I am very grateful that a rational, well spoken leader with a generally positive message has been elected into the highest office of the land. I hope that the conservatives across the nation see this as the preferred tone for success...

Trust me, Anthony... they're watching and learning from Obama and how his campaign was run. One thing about campaign strategy that doesn't change is that they MUST change. McCain's campaign tried to run on the hate and fear that worked for Bush, and it failed them this time. Obama ran on the hope and optimism that worked for Reagan, and it succeeded once again.

Of the two styles, I'd much rather vote my hopes than my fears.

If the Republicans can indeed learn and move forward with a new optimism and a new way of expressing their ideals, who knows? Maybe one day I'll find myself voting for them.

The most important lesson Obama's campaign teaches is to not give up on states that you don't think you can compete in. He ran a 50-state campaign, and it paid off. He didn't WIN most of the "red states", but he competed there, and did indeed knock off most of the "swing states".

Mike

PIZMOBEACH

Friday, November 14, 2008 12:06 PM

Whoa, good thread. Lot of talk about Free Speech and I feel like I have just witnessed the best and worst of it. As in, It's better when it's not just the free speech of one person (hate radio), but the exchange of free speech between people.

RUE

Saturday, November 15, 2008 6:31 PM

Speaking of racism:

Obama has more threats than other presidents-elect

By EILEEN SULLIVAN, Associated Press Writer Eileen Sullivan, Associated Press Writer – Sat Nov 15, 12:05 am ET

WASHINGTON – Threats against a new president historically spike right after an election, but from Maine to Idaho law enforcement officials are seeing more against Barack Obama than ever before. The Secret Service would not comment or provide the number of cases they are investigating. But since the Nov. 4 election, law enforcement officials have seen more potentially threatening writings, Internet postings and other activity directed at Obama than has been seen with any past president-elect, said officials aware of the situation who spoke on condition of anonymity because the issue of a president's security is so sensitive.

Earlier this week, the Secret Service looked into the case of a sign posted on a tree in Vay, Idaho, with Obama's name and the offer of a "free public hanging." In North Carolina, civil rights officials complained of threatening racist graffiti targeting Obama found in a tunnel near the North Carolina State University campus.

And in a Maine convenience store, an Associated Press reporter saw a sign inviting customers to join a betting pool on when Obama might fall victim to an assassin. The sign solicited $1 entries into "The Osama Obama Shotgun Pool," saying the money would go to the person picking the date closest to when Obama was attacked. "Let's hope we have a winner," said the sign, since taken down.

There were two threatening cases with racial overtones:

• In Denver, a group of men with guns and bulletproof vests made racist threats against Obama and sparked fears of an assassination plot during the Democratic National Convention in August.

• Just before the election, two skinheads in Tennessee were charged with plotting to behead blacks across the country and assassinate Obama while wearing white top hats and tuxedos.

Racially tinged graffiti — not necessarily directed at Obama — also has emerged in numerous reports across the nation since Election Day, prompting at least one news conference by a local chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People in Georgia.

Chatter among white supremacists on the Internet has increased throughout the campaign and since Election Day.

One of the most popular white supremacist Web sites got more than 2,000 new members the day after the election, compared with 91 new members on Election Day, according to an AP count. The site, stormfront.org, was temporarily off-line Nov. 5 because of the overwhelming amount of activity it received after Election Day. On Saturday, one Stormfront poster, identified as Dalderian Germanicus, of North Las Vegas, said, "I want the SOB laid out in a box to see how 'messiahs' come to rest. God has abandoned us, this country is doomed."

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But if we could just eliminate affirmative action, all discrimination would end. Right, Wulf ?

PIZMOBEACH

Saturday, November 15, 2008 7:45 PM

Again with the hate and fear. They try and act tough yet they just look like babies. What are they so afraid of?

Obama ran for the office knowing full well that he might not make the four years. He KNEW the risk. His wife knew it too. Their courage on one side versus the crying pansies on the other.

RUE

Saturday, November 15, 2008 9:42 PM

(CNN) -- A jury awarded $2.5 million in damages on Friday to a Kentucky teenager who was severely beaten by members of a Ku Klux Klan group because they mistakenly thought he was an illegal Latino immigrant, the Southern Poverty Law Center said.

The jury found that the Imperial Klans of America and its founder wrongfully targeted 16-year-old Jordan Gruver, an American citizen of Panamanian and Native-American descent.

An all-white jury of seven men and seven women deliberated for five hours after three days of testimony. The suit alleged that Edwards, Hensley, and the Imperial Klans of America as a whole incited its members to use violence against minorities.

"The people of Meade County, Kentucky, have spoken loudly and clearly. And what they've said is that ethnic violence has no place in our society, that those who promote hate and violence will be held accountable and made to pay a steep price," Dees said.

According to testimony, three members of the Klan group confronted Gruver in July 2006 during a recruiting mission at the Meade County Fair in Brandenberg, Kentucky. They taunted him with ethnic slurs -- inaccurate ones -- spat on him and doused him with alcohol. Two of the men, including Hensley, knocked Gruver to the ground and repeatedly struck and kicked him.

"All I could see was a bunch of feet," Gruver, now 19, told the jury. "As they were kicking me, I prayed to myself. I said, 'God, just please let me go. Please let me make it home.'"

When the blows stopped, Gruver had a broken jaw, broken left forearm, two cracked ribs and cuts and bruises.

He testified that he has suffered permanent nerve damage and psychological trauma. He doesn't leave his house and rarely sleeps more than two hours at a time because he has nightmares, CNN affiliate WLKY reported.

Among the evidence the jury saw was a pair of red-laced, steel-toed boots. A police witness testified that Hensley wore the boots the night he and another Klansman attacked Gruver.

Edwards acknowledged from the witness stand that the boots were the "weapon of choice" for skinheads and that the red laces carried special significance -- that "someone should shed blood for their race."

Also revealed during testimony: An alleged Klan plot to kill the Southern Poverty Law Center's attorney, Morris Dees.

***************************************************************

But affirmative action is THE problem, hunh, Wulf ?

FREMDFIRMA

Saturday, November 15, 2008 10:52 PM

Quote:
What are they so afraid of?

Anything that isn't them.

-F

RUE

Saturday, November 15, 2008 11:32 PM

Election spurs 'hundreds' of race threats, crimes

By JESSE WASHINGTON, AP National Writer Jesse Washington, Ap National Writer – 1 hr 5 mins ago

Cross burnings (There were two arrests Wednesday in the cross burning incident in Susquehanna County, Pennsylvania. Two men from Friendsville, Pennsylvania are the suspects. The men are accused in the cross-burning last week in the front yard of Ruth Cohen and Archie Johnson, a mixed-race couple ...). Schoolchildren chanting "Assassinate Obama." Black figures hung from nooses. Racial epithets scrawled on homes and cars.

Incidents around the country referring to President-elect Barack Obama are dampening the postelection glow of racial progress and harmony, highlighting the stubborn racism that remains in America.

From California to Maine, police have documented a range of alleged crimes, from vandalism and vague threats to at least one physical attack. Insults and taunts have been delivered by adults, college students and second-graders.

There have been "hundreds" of incidents since the election, many more than usual, said Mark Potok, director of the Intelligence Project at the Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors hate crimes.

Denene Millner said a boy on the school bus told her 9-year-old daughter the day after the election: "I hope Obama gets assassinated."

Grant Griffin, a 46-year-old white Georgia native, expressed similar sentiments: "I believe our nation is ruined and has been for several decades and the election of Obama is merely the culmination of the change.

"If you had real change it would involve all the members of (Obama's) church being deported," he said.

The day after the vote hailed as a sign of a nation changed, black high school student Barbara Tyler of Marietta, Ga., said she heard hateful Obama comments from white students, and that teachers cut off discussion about Obama's victory.

Other incidents include:

_Four North Carolina State University students admitted writing anti-Obama comments in a tunnel designated for free speech expression, including one that said: "Let's shoot that (N-word) in the head." Obama has received more threats than any other president-elect, authorities say.

_At Standish, Maine, a sign inside the Oak Hill General Store read: "Osama Obama Shotgun Pool." Customers could sign up to bet $1 on a date when Obama would be killed. "Stabbing, shooting, roadside bombs, they all count," the sign said. At the bottom of the marker board was written "Let's hope someone wins."

_Racist graffiti was found in places including New York's Long Island, where two dozen cars were spray-painted; Kilgore, Texas, where the local high school and skate park were defaced; and the Los Angeles area, where swastikas, racial slurs and "Go Back To Africa" were spray painted on sidewalks, houses and cars.

_Second- and third-grade students on a school bus in Rexburg, Idaho, chanted "assassinate Obama," a district official said.

_University of Alabama professor Marsha L. Houston said a poster of the Obama family was ripped off her office door. A replacement poster was defaced with a death threat and a racial slur. "It seems the election brought the racist rats out of the woodwork," Houston said.

_Black figures were hanged by nooses from trees on Mount Desert Island, Maine, the Bangor Daily News reported. The president of Baylor University in Waco, Texas said a rope found hanging from a campus tree was apparently an abandoned swing and not a noose.

_Crosses were burned in yards of Obama supporters in Hardwick, N.J., and Apolacan Township, Pa.

_A black teenager in New York City said he was attacked with a bat on election night by four white men who shouted 'Obama.'

_In the Pittsburgh suburb of Forest Hills, a black man said he found a note with a racial slur on his car windshield, saying "now that you voted for Obama, just watch out for your house."

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Yeah, affirmative action sure is THE problem, isn't it, Wulf ?

RUE

Sunday, November 16, 2008 12:06 AM

Anyway, Wulf ---

I hope you get the picture. There is a LOT of existing hate that started well before affirmative action and will continue should affirmative action disappear.

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Silence is consent.

ANTHONYT

Sunday, November 16, 2008 5:17 AM

Hello,

I believe that hate and racism (and other isms) will always exist. I do not believe in quota systems. I do believe in the right to bring suit against an employer suspected of discrimination. I do not believe in special hate crime law that makes identical crimes have different severity depending on whether someone hated you, or hated you because you were a latino.

I don't think you can legislate someone into civility. That's a PR job, achieved largely via advertising. Racist people start behaving themselves when misbehaving becomes uncool. That's why they congregate into little 'yeah, yeah, all our pain and inadequacy is their fault' enclaves. For the mutual ego fluffing and support.

I believe hate and racism will always exist...

But I think we can shrink it till it has little consequence, like targeted therapy for a tumor.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

PIZMOBEACH

Sunday, November 16, 2008 2:11 PM

"whatever scares you the most..." what a great line. This clip is so good. What's even funnier is some of what is made fun of will actually scare some people. The irony of that is off the charts:

http://www.236.com/video/2008/get_your_war_on_new_world_orde_10121.php

FREMDFIRMA

Sunday, November 16, 2008 9:01 PM

That's the thing, folks.

You cannot legislate away Racism any more than you can outlaw Stupidity, it's just not possible.

Never seems to stop damn fools from trying though, does it now ?

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

RUE

Monday, November 17, 2008 8:14 PM

As far as I'm concerned, people can hate all they want - they just can't discriminate. And while you can't legislate against hateful attitudes, you CAN legislate against hateful actions. Also, you do need laws against discrimination, b/c without them, there is no legal basis for private lawsuits.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, November 18, 2008 12:22 PM

Understood - I just don't care for the idea of pre-emptive legislation based on the ASSUMPTION that you're a racist prick.

That's insulting, and of itself, illegal.

I am fine and dandy with charging someone for a crime they did - and only after due process of law.... but I am not so fine with assuming they will commit it and pre-emptively punishing them.

That's a bad road to go down, you see ?

Laws against discrimination I happen to be ok with, quotas.. not so much - especially if the quota demanded is radically different from the makeup of the local population, having a reversed effect and in fact increasing racial and cultural tensions.

You cannot legislate decent behavior - if it's indecent enough, meaning actually illegal, you can punish someone for their actions, sure, but legislating morality is a damned dangerous thing since not everyone shares the same morality.

Maybe *I* think it's ok to buy a drink at 9am on a sunday morning, but because a bunch of religious goons who I consider the very scum of the earth did not think so, now I must suffer under the lash of THEIR morality or face criminal charges ?

How'd you like to be charged for sodomy yourself, perhaps - not that I am assumin or accusin nothin, just tryin to think of something that would hit most folk in a bad way, ok ?

I mean, dragged out, charged, and THROWN IN JAIL, by virtue of disobeying someone ELSE'S morality, that you do not even share ?

That's where that kinda crap leads, and I will not support it, period.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, November 20, 2008 4:34 PM

Frem,

"I mean, dragged out, charged, and THROWN IN JAIL, by virtue of disobeying someone ELSE'S morality, that you do not even share ?"

I agree with the sentiment. But there has to be some morality to a society. Or it would destroy itself and (while operating) would be hell on earth.

A society needs morality, just as it needs truth, justice, and honor.

But its got to be a true morality. Not like the mujahadeen.

RUE

Thursday, November 20, 2008 4:45 PM

"I believe hate and racism will always exist..."

I've been thinking about this ... something SignyM said many years ago and alluded to in this thread which I still mull over.

People don't hate, discriminate or fight over differences ... they do it over things ... resources, opportunities ... like education, jobs, housing, and political power (which is a way to keep those differences in things going your way.)

So, if we DID have a society which wasn't zero-sum - and there weren't these things to fight over b/c there was enough and they were equally available to all - perhaps racism and hate would disappear.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, November 21, 2008 9:11 AM

Wulf, here's where some education would do you good.

Most of the actual Mujahideen are the folks who fought AGAINST the Soviets, then the Taliban, and now... us.
(As we try to put the damn Taliban back in power, no less)

And most of them are Pashtun/Pashtunwali.

Now, Pashtunwali is an islamic based belief that's actually quite respectable in practice, barring folks who'd twist any belief to excuse personal misconduct, but every religious/social system has em, and they are renegades to all.

I'm not shining you on this, many of my allies both up in Dearborn and over the water are Pashtunwali, and they're good people, dude.

Trust me, have a read for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunwali

If we had backed these folk instead of helping pricks like the Taliban crush them, not only would the middle east not be so pissed with us, it'd be in the hands of folk far more responsive to progressive values and feminine equality.

They ain't perfect, but they're better folk than western media demonisation would have you believe, and they HATE terrorism - in an act of Badal for a legit gripe they'll try their level best to kill you, sure (and many of em do have a gripe with the USA) but no Pasthunwali worth the name would harm anyone not directly involved, or women and children, even the idea is horribly offensive to them.

Which of course, when any of theirs becomes "collateral damage" they tend to get really, severely pissed about it, you see.

Which leads to just how badly the Muja's got hung out to dry by the rest of the world...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen#Afghanistan

Now, the term is today thrown at any middle eastern militant, I am well aware, and many of them are lowlifes - when I speak it I mean the original folk who took up that banner, mostly Afghani Pashtuns, who then got backstabbed and shit on by Pakistan, Us and the Saudis in favor of the bastards who DID commit terrorism against us, and then wound up on the short end of the stick from both those dickheads, AND the rest of the world.

I ain't real fond of the Sunnis or the Shiites, but the Pashtunwali ?

Decent people, Wulf, and if we'd dealt with them instead of propping up dickweeds willing to exploit their own country for our business interests, we wouldn't have half the problems over there we do today.

Now, you wanna slag on Maktab al-Khidamat, The Taliban or Al Qeada, feel free, they quite deserve it, but at least learn something about the cultures and people you level insults against before you do it, please.

-Frem

Reccommended Viewing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beast_of_War

WULFENSTAR

Friday, November 21, 2008 3:37 PM

Fair enough Frem,

I meant the Taliban-like folks who would the place a hell on earth.

Thanks for the heads up on the differing factions/beliefs/ideologies. I will do some more research.

I erroneously thought that the mujahedeen were intimately linked with Al-Qaeda et.all.

But the point still stands, without SOME sort of morality, a society would eat itself alive. And rightly so.

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, November 21, 2008 4:24 PM

Fair enough that, my moral perspective I actually swiped primarily from Wicca.

"Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill, An it harm none do what ye will."

That being in spite of my dislike of em, and certain factions in particular.
Intolerance is intolerance no matter what polite bullshit you wrap it up in.

Now, it's just not possible to do NO harm - that's a fact, and if I got a choice between blowing a big gaping hole in someone or letting them harm or kill an innocent, well, they're gonna get a big damn hole in em, sure as day follows dawn.

In the end, the best moral guideline is simply to take the most useful action that does the least possible harm, and even atheists as a whole hold to that philosophy, so it's omnipresent in any society whatever that's evolved beyond rocks and sticks.

Based on that bedrock, society does pretty well.

It's when you pour religion, rationalisation, and politics into the mix that things get murky, but that has also, always been true.

And when you *reward* harm, and severely punish folk who choose not to harm others, as our current society, and many others do, then you have a recipe for evil.

Funny thing is that I take most of my cues not from human behavior, but in fact from animal behavior, sometimes I think the only edge we got on em is the sense to stop reproducing when resources run thin, which we mostly do not heed anyway.

And as for factions and such, one thing that IMHO sets the Pashtunwali above others is this single, simple tenet, which they DO hold to more often than others who's beliefs also include it do.

Proselytizing - No individual has the right to place demand upon others who are not their children regarding what to believe.

That ONE thing, makes a hell of a lot of difference and saves endless conflict and tribulation.

Consider how much conflict violation of that tiny, simple principle leads to.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

WULFENSTAR

Friday, November 21, 2008 4:37 PM

"That ONE thing, makes a hell of a lot of difference and saves endless conflict and tribulation."

Thats true. But all belief systems have folks who will try and force their ways/beliefs/opinions on you.

From politics to religion to even what suit to buy or what cigarette to smoke.

Hell, thats what most of these boards are about. People arguing incessantly, trying to change other peoples minds.

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