SURVIVAL STRATEGIE$: WHAT ARE YOURS ?

POSTED BY: out2theblack
UPDATED: Friday, October 10, 2008 17:46
VIEWED: 6113
PAGE 1 of 1

OUT2THEBLACK

Saturday, October 4, 2008 12:08 PM

So this is US , on the raggedy edge...

Hyperinflation , Economic Depression Ahead ;

How will You get by ?

"It's an extraordinary new world, and survival is simply a question of
whether we can reach deep enough to find the extraordinary in
ourselves."
~~Morgan Martin, "Earth 2"

KHYRON

Saturday, October 4, 2008 12:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
How will You get by ?

I'd start by not bitching when the government tries to save the banks that have my money.

------------------------------

Trolls against McCain, you betcha!

KIRKULES

Saturday, October 4, 2008 12:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
So this is US , on the raggedy edge...

Hyperinflation , Economic Depression Ahead ;

I don't think our current inflation rate of 2-4% qualifies as "hyperinflation" and we aren't even technically in a recession yet. The US has survived much worse than this in recent years, we'll be out of this funk in no time.

Quote:

How will You get by

Canabilizim!

SERGEANTX

Saturday, October 4, 2008 12:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
I'd start by not bitching when the government tries to save the banks that have my money.

Yeah! We should all just take our ass-fucking and appreciate that it's for our own good!

Quote:
BILL MOYERS:
On Monday, the people rose up and Congress backed down, sending the bailout to defeat. But then the lobbyists rushed in with a brinks truck of bribes, and this afternoon Secretary of the Treasury Henry Paulson got $700 billion dollars to save the system that his crowd on Wall Street had exploited to enrich themselves while plunging the country to the edge of catastrophe.

The bailout offers almost no help for homeowners, or equity for taxpayers in banks that are being thrown a lifeline...it turns our Secretary of the Treasury into Caesar Augustus and plunders democracy with tax breaks for Hollywood studios, Samoan sweat shops, Alaskan fishermen, rum merchants, makers of toy arrows and giveaways to big oil. All this on the very day the government reports that another 160,000 people lost their jobs last month — that's the most in five and a half years.

No wonder that Congress today resembled Monty Python's ministry of silly walks — one palm open to the lobbyists, the other holding their nose against the stinking odor of a bill everyone said they didn't want — while rushing for the airport to go home and tell the voters how important it is for them to be re-elected — so they can come back and clean up the mess they just made.

At least one journalist gets it.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

KHYRON

Saturday, October 4, 2008 1:07 PM

SergeantX, I was referring to all of those people who were against government bail-out on principle, since they (understandably) want the greedy corporate fat-cats to come crashing down burning, but apparently fail to see that the entire system would come crashing down with them.

I generally agree with what Moyers wrote, but Congress didn't "back down", they tried again and got it passed, with or without lobbyist influence. Just because one doesn't agree with some of the specifics of this bail-out proposal (and I don't), doesn't mean a bail-out is fundamentally wrong.

------------------------------

Trolls against McCain, you betcha!

SERGEANTX

Saturday, October 4, 2008 1:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
I was referring to all of those people who were against government bail-out on principle, since they (understandably) want the greedy corporate fat-cats to come crashing down burning, but apparently fail to see that the entire system would come crashing down with them.

That's specifically the attitude I find so condescending and the one that is most typically presented by the press. What the people do get is that this correction has been a long time coming. They're willing to live through a some pain to see the slime flushed out of our system.

The press has dutifully droned the refrain that "something must be done", but is that really the case? Looking beyond the corporate media...

http://www.reason.com/news/show/129158.html

Quote:
from "Roots of the Crisis: How did Wall Street get into this mess?"

...

The original plan crafted by Treasury would authorize the department to spend up to $700 billion to buy MBSes and other "toxic" debt and thereby remove them from banks' balance sheets. With the "bad loans" off the books, the banks would become sound. Because it was assumed that the MBS market was "illiquid," the government would become the buyer of last resort for these products. There is a certain simple elegance to the plan.

Except that no market is truly illiquid. It just isn't liquid at the price you want to sell. This summer, Merrill Lynch unloaded a bunch of bad debt at 22 cents on the dollar. There are likely plenty of buyers for the banks' bad debt, just not at the price the banks would prefer. Enter the government, which clearly intends to purchase MBSes at some premium above the market price. That was the nature of the bailout that failed on Monday.

Congressional leaders have vowed to bring a new proposal for a vote, possibly as soon as Thursday, proving yet again that Washington is fertile ground for really bad ideas. But with the market rebounding—as of this writing the Dow was up almost 300 points—and public opposition hardening, signs are emerging that banks are starting to clean house. The crisis may have already peaked. Of course, Congress' ability to further screw this up can't be overstated.

Why I hope voters are at last able to see from this situation, is that the Democrats are not there to save them from the Bush administration. Why anyone would support them at this point is beyond reason.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

OUT2THEBLACK

Saturday, October 4, 2008 2:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Quote:

Originally posted by Khyron:
I'd start by not bitching when the government tries to save the banks that have my money.

Yeah! We should all just take our ass-fucking and appreciate that it's for our own good!

Quote:
BILL MOYERS:
On Monday, the people rose up and Congress backed down, sending the bailout to defeat. But then the lobbyists rushed in with a brinks truck of bribes, and this afternoon Secretary of the Treasury Henry Paulson got $700 billion dollars to save the system that his crowd on Wall Street had exploited to enrich themselves while plunging the country to the edge of catastrophe.

The bailout offers almost no help for homeowners, or equity for taxpayers in banks that are being thrown a lifeline...it turns our Secretary of the Treasury into Caesar Augustus and plunders democracy with tax breaks for Hollywood studios, Samoan sweat shops, Alaskan fishermen, rum merchants, makers of toy arrows and giveaways to big oil. All this on the very day the government reports that another 160,000 people lost their jobs last month — that's the most in five and a half years.

No wonder that Congress today resembled Monty Python's ministry of silly walks — one palm open to the lobbyists, the other holding their nose against the stinking odor of a bill everyone said they didn't want — while rushing for the airport to go home and tell the voters how important it is for them to be re-elected — so they can come back and clean up the mess they just made.

At least one journalist gets it.

SergeantX

WELCOME To BUSHVILLE

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008197171_apwanickels
ville1stldwritethru.html

http://www.businessandmedia.org/articles/2008/20081002100113.aspx

http://www.opednews.com/articles/Hoovervilles--camping-out-by-Jane-Sti
llwater-080922-593.html

http://www.crosscut.com/business-technology/18179/House+votes+to+re-en
act+the+Great+Depression

"The joyful cynics on “The Street” cared little about a California Employment Development Department report of a rise in unemployment to 7.7%. In August, 60,000 fewer Californians had jobs. Officially, almost 1.5 million Californians are unemployed. Unofficially, that figure is considerably higher. Workers in construction and farm work often get paid under the table and thus don’t get listed in official data."

"Wall Street tycoons and munitions manufacturers share the taxpayers’ wealth. The CEOs can claim exemptions worth millions of dollars for all kinds of luxuries, but are not exempt from the nasty connotations of their shared deadly sin. “When is enough enough?

“Never!” John D. Rockefeller sneered, referring to accumulating wealth."

'Rob from the poor , give to the Rich...'

http://www.counterpunch.org/landau10032008.html

OUT2THEBLACK

Saturday, October 4, 2008 2:43 PM

In Depth: 10 Tips For the Unemployed

Forbes, NY - 15 hours ago

"The unemployment rate is at a five-year high and the economic news just keeps getting grimmer. If you're pounding the pavement, or fear you may be soon," ...

http://www.forbes.com/home/2008/10/03/unemployment-taxes-bailout-biz-w
ash-cz_ae_1003beltway.html

OUT2THEBLACK

Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:21 AM

"...most importantly, without the huge fraud perpetrated by AIG, the mortgage bubble could have never grown as large as it did. Yes, other factors contributed, like the role of Fannie and Freddie in particular. But the key to enabling the huge global growth in credit during the last decade can be tied directly to AIG's sale of credit default swaps without collateral. That was the barn door.
And it was left open for nearly a decade.

There's no way to replace this massive credit-building machine, which makes me very skeptical of the government's bailout plan. Quite simply, we can't replace the credit that existed in the world before September 15 because it didn't deserve to be there in the first place. While the government can, and certainly will, paper over the gaping holes left by this enormous credit collapse, it can't actually replace the trust and credit that existed... because it was a fraud.

And that leads me to believe the coming economic contraction will be longer and deeper than most people understand. "

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

" Sometimes , a thing gets broke , can't be fixed..."

Well now... the bailout bill has passed as the
banksters wanted (but not as we wanted), fear and
corruption ruled today. What have they done? Only
prolonged Judgment Day.

Thank you to everyone who called and pressured their
congressman, we won the first round but they got us
on the second.

Buckle up , it's time to get ready for
hyperinflation... the problem is not fixed. This bail
out is only a band-aid on a bullet wound, the system
will continue to hemorrhage, there will be more bail
outs...

Have you heard of the Weimar Republic?

During 1921-1923 the German Weimar Republic experienced
a period of hyperinflation where it was cheaper to burn
German Marks than to purchase firewood!

John Maynard Keynes described the Weimar Republic
hyperinflation in The Economic Consequences of the
Peace: "The inflationism of the currency systems of
Europe has proceeded to extraordinary lengths. The
various belligerent Governments, unable, or too timid
or too short-sighted to secure from loans or taxes the
resources they required, have printed notes for the
balance."

You know how Germany solved their economic crisis?
They created a new currency called the Rentenmark!

How will we eventually solve our financial crisis?
We'll create a new currency called the Amero!

Please read Michael Lemieux's analysis of today's
events for more information:

Bailout - Devil is in the details

http://www.restoretherepublic.com/economy/bailout-devil-is-in-the-deta
ils

GEEZER

Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:29 AM

Me, I'll laugh at the comics.

http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=2952

"Keep the Shiny side up"

OUT2THEBLACK

Sunday, October 5, 2008 11:35 AM

Thanks for that...It's Awesome !

I don't care for Michael Moore at all , but he had this to say about the " Bailout " :

'...Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this. Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies -- who must soon vacate the White House -- are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door.

No matter what they say, no matter how many scare words they use, they are up to their old tricks of creating fear and confusion in order to make and keep themselves and the upper one percent filthy rich. Just read the first four paragraphs of the lead story in last Monday's New York Times and you can see what the real deal is:

"Even as policy makers worked on details of a $700 billion bailout of the financial industry, Wall Street began looking for ways to profit from it.

"Financial firms were lobbying to have all manner of troubled investments covered, not just those related to mortgages.

"At the same time, investment firms were jockeying to oversee all the assets that Treasury plans to take off the books of financial institutions, a role that could earn them hundreds of millions of dollars a year in fees.

"Nobody wants to be left out of Treasury's proposal to buy up bad assets of financial institutions."

Unbelievable. Wall Street and its backers created this mess and now they are going to clean up like bandits. Even Rudy Giuliani is lobbying for his firm to be hired (and paid) to "consult" in the bailout.

The problem is, nobody truly knows what this "collapse" is all about. Even Treasury Secretary Paulson admitted he doesn't know the exact amount that is needed (he just picked the $700 billion number out of his head!). The head of the congressional budget office said he can't figure it out nor can he explain it to anyone.

And yet, they are screeching about how the end is near! Panic! Recession! The Great Depression! Y2K! Bird flu! Killer bees! We must pass the bailout bill today!! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Falling for whom? NOTHING in this "bailout" package will lower the price of the gas you have to put in your car to get to work. NOTHING in this bill will protect you from losing your home. NOTHING in this bill will give you health insurance.

Health insurance? Mike, why are you bringing this up? What's this got to do with the Wall Street collapse?

It has everything to do with it. This so-called "collapse" was triggered by the massive defaulting and foreclosures going on with people's home mortgages. Do you know why so many Americans are losing their homes? To hear the Republicans describe it, it's because too many working class idiots were given mortgages that they really couldn't afford. Here's the truth: The number one cause of people declaring bankruptcy is because of medical bills. Let me state this simply: If we had had universal health coverage, this mortgage "crisis" may never have happened.

This bailout's mission is to protect the obscene amount of wealth that has been accumulated in the last eight years. It's to protect the top shareholders who own and control corporate America. It's to make sure their yachts and mansions and "way of life" go uninterrupted while the rest of America suffers and struggles to pay the bills...

P.S.-- Having read further the details of this bailout bill, you need to know you are being lied to. They talk about how they will prevent golden parachutes. It says NOTHING about what these executives and fat cats will make in SALARY. According to Rep. Brad Sherman of California, these top managers will continue to receive million-dollar-a-month paychecks under this ne

OUT2THEBLACK

Sunday, October 5, 2008 1:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:

I'd start by not bitching when the government tries to save the banks that have my money.

You would...

The Banksters are the largest part of the problem...

They don't have MY money...

If they crash , it's that much easier to get rid of the big , bad 'fractional' reserve system...

Where did the crisis get created ?

HERO

Monday, October 6, 2008 3:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
How will You get by ?

My good looks and keen fashion sense...

H

JONGSSTRAW

Monday, October 6, 2008 3:39 PM

Many say that the Dow is going down to 8,000. So there will be more pain and volatility ahead.

Stay away from trading stocks, unless you want to throw some risk capital at some stocks that have been beaten down. No matter when you buy, it's still a risk to go even lower though.

I like CDs. Find a local bank that is strong, and isn't too involved with home mortgages (do some DD), and then park your money in short-term CDs. You'll get around 4.5% now, and it's FDIC insured.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Monday, October 6, 2008 3:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:
So this is US , on the raggedy edge...

Hyperinflation , Economic Depression Ahead ;

How will You get by ?

"It's an extraordinary new world, and survival is simply a question of
whether we can reach deep enough to find the extraordinary in
ourselves."
~~Morgan Martin, "Earth 2"

Lots of these, actually....

http://lifehacker.com/software/macgyver-tip/make-a-diy-portable-stove-
303864.php

They'll be worth a lot more than batteries.

~6

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

CHRISISALL

Monday, October 6, 2008 3:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:

How will You get by ?

3 or 4 different jobs, as Bush said, how uniquely American.

Chrisisall

SIGNYM

Monday, October 6, 2008 4:17 PM

Quote:
Many say that the Dow is going down to 8,000. So there will be more pain and volatility ahead. Stay away from trading stocks, unless you want to throw some risk capital at some stocks that have been beaten down. No matter when you buy, it's still a risk to go even lower though.

I like CDs. Find a local bank that is strong, and isn't too involved with home mortgages (do some DD), and then park your money in short-term CDs. You'll get around 4.5% now, and it's FDIC insured.

I second that.

Guy at work said "There's got to be a way of making money offa this thing."

My response: "First thing: don't lose it."

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

6IXSTRINGJACK

Monday, October 6, 2008 4:32 PM

Good advice Signy.

Also, don't sell if you're a loser now. We're all screwed if the sysetem comes apart at the seams. Just hold and hope for better days. And buy some damn silver.

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." http://www.myspace.com/6ixstringjack

OUT2THEBLACK

Tuesday, October 7, 2008 8:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Many say that the Dow is going down to 8,000. So there will be more pain and volatility ahead. Stay away from trading stocks, unless you want to throw some risk capital at some stocks that have been beaten down. No matter when you buy, it's still a risk to go even lower though.

I like CDs. Find a local bank that is strong, and isn't too involved with home mortgages (do some DD), and then park your money in short-term CDs. You'll get around 4.5% now, and it's FDIC insured.
I second that.

Guy at work said "There's got to be a way of making money offa this thing."

My response: "First thing: don't lose it."

There are some reasonably smart people on this board...
Still , the lack of economic literacy is stunning...

You'd be better off buying good whiskey on speculation...There are probably 100 'bank failures' looming in 2009...

Inflation is going to eat the puny returns on CD's in short order...
700 Billion 'New' Federal Reserve Rags in circulation will increase inflationary pressures drastically...Remember , there have been prior rounds to the Bailout Fiasco , some of which have received virtually no public disclosure...
There will be repeated rounds of Bailout financing in the future , as well...

Which means Carter-era inflation , at a minimum...

Keep in mind that all the figures get a statistical tweak and spin , if they're disclosed at all...As an example , try finding current 'M3' data...

They stopped bothering to report it a couple of years ago...

Meanwhile , state , local , and Federal taxes on liquor will spiral upward , as the 'governments' seek to cover
their 'funding shortfalls'...

Consequently , large increases in the price of liquor...

If you don't like whiskey , buy shotgun shells in 12 and 20 Gauge...While you still can...

OUT2THEBLACK

Tuesday, October 7, 2008 8:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:

...Just hold and hope for better days. And buy some damn silver.

Silver is relatively cheap right now...It's a good 'buy'...

Anyone notice that Folk who got into Gold since mid-Summer have done pretty well ?

The 'Underground Economy' is the Real economy...Buy some storable foods , seeds , and 'comfort' items NOW !

It's what will hold up for a while , after the collapse of the 'fractional reserve' Federal Reserve economy...

Frem gave this link a while ago , and there's a lot of useful insight contained therein...

Here's a Quote ; does anything written in this little snippet seem to evoke a sense of deja vu ?

" When faced with such developments, some people are quick to realize what it is they have to do to survive, and start doing these things, generally without anyone's permission. A sort of economy emerges, completely informal, and often semi-criminal. It revolves around liquidating, and recycling, the remains of the old economy. It is based on direct access to resources, and the threat of force, rather than ownership or legal authority. People who have a problem with this way of doing things, quickly find themselves out of the game."

So this is US...

Find a crew , find a 'job' , keep flyin'...

http://madconomist.com/what-if-us-collapses-soviet-collapse-lessons-ev
ery-american-needs-to-know

FREMDFIRMA

Tuesday, October 7, 2008 2:14 PM

Actually, even more relevant is what I often refer to as the Ghetto Free Market, aka underground urban economy.

Most folks have no clue, don't want one or need one, but having been "down there" for a great part of my life, knowing how to work it was a key factor in climbing out of that hellhole.

Add this to your recommended reading list.

Off the Books: The Underground Economy of the Urban Poor (Hardcover)
http://www.amazon.com/Off-Books-Underground-Economy-Urban/ dp/0674023552/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1223388295&sr=8-1
(spaced link)

Not only is it an in-depth account of how that economy works, but it's also a peek into a world so badly misunderstood that folks who don't understand the motivations behind that world, that culture, mistake them for malevolence rather than desperation.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

OUT2THEBLACK

Wednesday, October 8, 2008 12:58 PM

My wish list of books , is quite lengthy , but the one that you've recommended has gone to the top of the stack...

Looked it up on Amazon already...A 'must-have'.

Thanks , again !

RUE

Wednesday, October 8, 2008 3:15 PM

I have an Ethiopian friend - he came through a lot of hardship - revolution, crackdown, jail, countrywide instability and starvation - and I asked him "Gold or mattress ?". He said "Not gold".

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

PIRATENEWS

Wednesday, October 8, 2008 5:23 PM

US and most other govts, er, private jewish central banks, are now officially out of gold. Expect the price of solid gold to double as the yuppies feel left out.

OUT2THEBLACK

Thursday, October 9, 2008 2:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I have an Ethiopian friend - he came through a lot of hardship - revolution, crackdown, jail, countrywide instability and starvation - and I asked him "Gold or mattress ?". He said "Not gold".

All that , and still didn't learn anything...Such is the scope of human tragedy...

I'll wager that folk like that look durned ridiculous , totin' their used mattresses around , tryin' to trade for commodities that are really in demand...

OUT2THEBLACK

Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:17 PM

Something to think about :

" The manager of a gold hedge fun has said that governments in the past have banned owning gold and they could do it again. Mark Mahaffey of Hinde Capital notes that interest in gold soared when the financial markets got the wobbles and he's worried banking interests will see that as a threat and pull the levers of government to re-create something like Franklin Roosevelt's April 5th, 1933 decree calling in gold.

Americans complied for several reasons. The country was on a gold standard and the people received gold-backed paper dollars for their coins at the going rate, $20.67 per troy ounce. The Roosevelt administration made the call-in sound like it was a temporary act because of the financial emergency. Not a word was said about devaluing the dollar after the call in. Besides, silver coins remained in circulation. By surrendering their gold the people thought they were supporting the nation's credit during very tough times.

Is it reasonable to think that if the government demanded that people turn in their private gold hoards that the going rate of more than $900.00 per ounce would be paid? Very unlikely. In 1933 gold was money - by definition. Today it is not, although a U.S. gold eagle coin containing a troy ounce of pure gold is legal tender for $50.00. No rational person would trade a gold coin worth more than $900.00 for an irredeemable paper fifty-dollar note, so a call-in of gold on the basis of its face value would fail.

Then there is the matter of ownership. When the United States Treasury Department mints a one-ounce gold coin and sells it to you for something above $900.00 that bit of precious metal belongs to YOU. The government no longer owns it and has no more legal claim to it than it does the nickels and quarter-dollars that jingle in your pocket. So it could not demand a return of your gold coin to the treasury without paying you full value. The government is broke so its chances of buying up all the private gold hoards in America at market values is extremely remote. There is the further complication of setting a value on foreign gold coins, such as the Krugerrand and Canadian Maple Leaf.

The bottom line here is: The Federal government has no more claim to your gold coin(s) than it does your wrist watch.

Some alarmists believe the government would not be denied should it demand to lay its hands on America's private gold. It could decree that anyone caught with gold coins of any kind be thrown into prison and/or fined. Armed forces and other police might be sent on house-to-house searches. This would turn even tenuous rights to private property upside down, and only timid people who are comfortable being indentured to a governing class anyway would cave in to such ruthlessness.

What is more likely to happen is the current financial storm will eventually lead to a national conversation about returning to some level of gold backing for the U.S. dollar and other major currencies. Whereas the dollar was once worth 1/20th of an ounce of gold its new value might be established as 1/1000th of an ounce of pure gold. To be sure, there would be strong objections of tying the dollar to gold. It would scuttle the grand plans of the political con artists who yearn to get rich by running the paper-money printing press overtime.

We got into trouble by completely abandoning the money system mandated by the U.S. Constitution. It's time we admitted our folly and returned to honest money...a currency that is not only a reliable medium of exchange but also precise standard of measure and a store of value. "

FREMDFIRMA

Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:34 PM

Out2B - The situations in Biafra and Ethiopia, and likely, soon to be Somalia, got to the point of a total social collapse, and in that particular case, more immediately useful assets spike in value, over and above precious metals because there is no remaining social or material infrastructure to make use of them beyond as a medium of exchange.

In a situation THAT awful, one has to look to what is valueable as an immediately useful commodity, stuff like tools, fuel, ammunition, canned goods, booze, toilet paper, what you call your basic beans & bullets scenario.

And skill has it's place even then, for if the light truck you're using as a technical to defend your little scrap of land will not start cause of a mechanical problem, you're in a world of hurt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_(fighting_vehicle)
(Remember to add final parenthesis manually.)

I don't see a total social collapse happening here, but should things come to that, starvation is gonna do for more folk than bullets when it comes right down to it - and you can't eat ammo, although it can be useful in producing something you can, of course.

Since food is a perishable good, longterm storage is a bit of an issue, and in a situation that nasty you just don't wanna part with it, the best longterm durable good you could invest in for a situation that's gonna get really ugly ?

Good tools and the skills to use them - believe me, in a crisis, you can name your price, and because of the value of that skill, folk tend to be unwilling to harm you, or even allow others to do so.

I find it highly unlikely it'd get that bad here, but tools and spam ain't never a bad investment, yanno.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

RUE

Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:35 PM

Rue: I have an Ethiopian friend - he came through a lot of hardship - revolution, crackdown, jail, countrywide instability and starvation - and I asked him "Gold or mattress ?". He said "Not gold".

OTB: All that , and still didn't learn anything...Such is the scope of human tragedy

No, here's the real deal.

90% of gold demand is for jewelry. When the vast majority of people have no money, no one is buying gold and gold becomes valueless.

When the vast majority of people have no money, any money you may have becomes increasingly valuable.

Oddly enough, the value of gold rises and falls with the money supply. And the value of money goes up when the money supply goes down.

WULFENSTAR

Thursday, October 9, 2008 3:36 PM

Ehh...we could always be like the Russians in Siberia.

Stock up on Vodka and bullets.

Thats the only currency they use over there.

OUT2THEBLACK

Thursday, October 9, 2008 6:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Out2B - The situations in Biafra and Ethiopia, and likely, soon to be Somalia, got to the point of a total social collapse, and in that particular case, more immediately useful assets spike in value, over and above precious metals because there is no remaining social or material infrastructure to make use of them beyond as a medium of exchange.

In a situation THAT awful, one has to look to what is valueable as an immediately useful commodity, stuff like tools, fuel, ammunition, canned goods, booze, toilet paper, what you call your basic beans & bullets scenario.

And skill has it's place even then, for if the light truck you're using as a technical to defend your little scrap of land will not start cause of a mechanical problem, you're in a world of hurt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_(fighting_vehicle)
(Remember to add final parenthesis manually.)

I don't see a total social collapse happening here, but should things come to that, starvation is gonna do for more folk than bullets when it comes right down to it - and you can't eat ammo, although it can be useful in producing something you can, of course.

Since food is a perishable good, longterm storage is a bit of an issue, and in a situation that nasty you just don't wanna part with it, the best longterm durable good you could invest in for a situation that's gonna get really ugly ?

Good tools and the skills to use them - believe me, in a crisis, you can name your price, and because of the value of that skill, folk tend to be unwilling to harm you, or even allow others to do so.

I find it highly unlikely it'd get that bad here, but tools and spam ain't never a bad investment, yanno.

-Frem

Some folk never read the rest of the thread...

Not sayin' you're one of 'em , 'cause I know better...

Pretty much everything you said is nothin' but old news to me...I've known several bush pilots that were busy on the African continent , in the locales that you named , Somalia being among the most recent...'Technicals' are old news , too...

I know some 'contract' flyers in Afghanistan right now , and others operating in Central or S. America...Folk who are used to the raggedy edge , for the purposes of fun and profit...

We've been over many of these facts before , and the same sort of ruefully-retarded folk keep showing up , same as always , making the same old hoary arguments for the sake of arguing , or for purposes of partisan pettiness...

I expect 'em to be stupid , and they never disappoint...Well , they're always disappointing , of course , but the true depths of their persistently-challenged 'mentality' remain fashionably un-plumbed...non compos mentis...

Still , musty mattresses don't exactly make good currency in most parts of the world , but folk who bought gold since this past midsummer , when I started advising it , have done Very
well...So , they can redeem some of their 'surplus' for other goods , if they wish...

In other words , they can buy a lot more tools , food , ammo , and the like , now versus just a few months ago...

Hey , there was a civil war here in the States not so many generations ago , I'm sure you know...Over 600,000 dead...It CAN happen again...Hey , it wouldn't take much of a disaster , epidemic , what-have-you , to break down the 'social order' of this country...

When I was born , the 'Civil War' was , historically-speaking , more recent an event than the Wright Brothers flights are now...

Hey , I didn't have this discussion taking place for the stupid people...It's really for the situationally-aware , and those inclined persistently to hope for the best , while they prepare for the worst...

RUE

Thursday, October 9, 2008 7:11 PM

OTB --

And your purpose of evading my point ? I wasn't talking about mattresses you know (or should know, unless you're as stupid as Rap, in which case - nevermind !).

The point is there are two ways the economy could go ---
-- out of control inflation (hyperinflation), like Germany starting 1923 and Zimbawe now - in which case gold value goes up as the money supply goes up (gee -- didn't I say that before ?)
-- or depression, where the value of your dollars skyrockets as the dollar supply goes down.

Since, historically and by a sheer cause-effect relationship, hyperinflation leads to depression, depression is the ultimate outcome of any scenario.

In which case your gold become dead weight, and the money you spent to buy it becomes a vanished treasure.

DUH !

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

OUT2THEBLACK

Thursday, October 9, 2008 10:35 PM

Sergeant X :

"...I hope voters are at last able to see from this situation, is that the Democrats are not there to save them from the Bush administration. Why anyone would support them at this point is beyond reason."

Good point...Ditto'ed !

OUT2THEBLACK

Thursday, October 9, 2008 10:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
...we could always be like the Russians in Siberia.

Stock up on Vodka and bullets.

Thats the only currency they use over there.

So it goes in tough times...Smart man , Wulfie !

For the not-so-brain-blown Folk who may wander in to the thread , just for review :

I've never advocated holding gold (or , silver , or copper) until no one wants them any more...

Being that the metals ARE Lawful Money , and the Federal Reserve debt-rags are NOT , the metals are an enduring storehouse of value that have historically NEVER yet been worthless...While 'paper' currencies OFTEN have...The thickest never catch on to this plain FACT !

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/lawfulmoney.asp

http://www.investorwords.com/2733/lawful_money.html

http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/money.html

This has been discussed at some great length in SEVERAL prior threads...Most recently ;

http://fireflyfan.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=34963

but there are others :

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=34935

PART I
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=34184
PART II
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=34664
PART III
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=34859
PART IV
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=34935

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, October 10, 2008 12:02 AM

Look up the phrase "Not worth a continental!" and comprehend that it's simply better to have your money in goods - NO MATTER WHAT THOSE GOODS ARE - than an unstable currency that seems doomed to implode in the near future.

Might wanna look up Rio's problems with it too, when last months currency is lying in the gutters cause it isn't even worth the effort to pick up and redeem it.

So yeah, go right on ahead and hold on to those greenbacks as their value plummets, and some day I might trade you a pint of whiskey for a million of em or so... if I run short on toilet paper.

-Frem

It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 12:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

DUH !

" I wasn't talking about mattresses you know..."--Rue-FULLY-St00pid

Then why'd you bring your nasty mattresses into a discussion of economics ?

Oh , I get it , the 'Ethiopian' moron did that , so it's not your fault...

But I get your point...Filthy lucre...Nasty cotton-rags that you prefer to Lawful Money...

Sooner or later , you'll be able to make a mattress out of all those debt-notes that you prefer...
They'll be so numerous and worthless otherwise...

Yeah , I see what you mean...

In your convoluted twisty way , you sorta-did have a point...

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 12:11 AM

You never heard the old saw about stuffing your money in your mattress for safe-keeping ? Why, even my Ethiopian friend for whom English is a fourth language knows about it.

BTW - 'saw' doesn't mean the thing you use to cut wood. It means saying, maxim, adage, motto, epigram, proverb, or aphorism. Just so you know.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 12:20 AM

Fourth language...

Day-yam , that poor sucker is as hard-up for communications as he is for 'friends'...

Why a 4th language ?

'Cause the first three just weren't workin' for him...

Jack of all trades , master of none...

Yeah , we need more immigrants like that...

Didn't know that you played the saw...

So you're musically-talented , too ?

Had you figured for a 'wood-wind player'...

SIGNYM

Friday, October 10, 2008 12:26 AM

Quote:
Yeah , we need more immigrants like that...

You jackass. The guy is a Senior Staff Chemist. Would rather have more of him than of you.

---------------------------------
Let's party like its 1929.

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 12:40 AM

Another gorramned 'chemist' that doesn't recognize the intrinsic , chemical , and physical properties of Au and Ag ?

Pathetic...

Yeah , our world needs more folk like that , plainly 'educated' far in excess of their true intelligence...Sure , they'll be real handy when the fecal matter contacts the air-circulating device...Probably yet another dumbass on the gum-or-mint dole...Figures !

My condolences...

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 12:42 AM

SignyM

Yeah, well, OTTB doesn't have much else to add.

I sense a certain poverty of mentation in him.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 12:44 AM

"Ar"

You mean Argon ???

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 12:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

Yeah, well, OTTB doesn't have much else to add.

I sense a certain poverty of mentation in him.

So , you're 'psychic' , too...Er , seems you mean psychotic...

Saw that comin'...

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 12:47 AM

That's all you've got ? That's your best and only argument ?

***************************************************************

And - tell me about argon. WHY is it so valuable, again ?

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 12:47 AM

That too...

Try , Argentum...

You can look it up , later...

Thought you wanted to talk about stuffing your mattress...

Go on , it's your 'sex life'...

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 12:50 AM

That's STILL all you've got ? That's STILL your best and only argument ?

BTW - your interest in my mattress smacks of desperation. Sexual desperation to be clear about it. You need to get a life. Maybe pal up with Rap. He's not very discriminating. And neither are you. You two are a perfect pair.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 12:52 AM

So, to try to get this train back on the track - OTB - do you have anything to say about the value of gold as it relates to the money supply ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 12:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
That's STILL all you've got ? That's your best and only argument ?

BTW - your interest in my mattress smacks of desperation. Sexual desperation. You need to get a life. Maybe pal up with Rap. He's not very discriminating, and neither are you.

Hey , Ricardo Cabeza , you dragged your effing mattress into the discussion of science and economics...

Sexual desperation ?

Yes , all-knowing Rue seems to conduct much 'mentation' , er , rumination on that as well...

Turns out , I'm very 'discriminating'...You're just another gorramned phony , not worth anyone's time ,
more particularly not mine...

Spam away , porcine untermenschen...

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 12:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
So, to try to get this train back on the track - OTB - do you have anything to say about the value of gold as it relates to the money supply ?

Only , " been there , done that " , took the profits , read the cites...

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 1:03 AM

And that's STILL all you've got ! That's STILL your best and only argument !

Got anything to add to the TOPIC ?

BTW - I have lots of dollars. The problem with giving up your dollars for things - gold, argon (or maybe silver, hard to tell with your poor knowledge of chemistry), even real estate - is that when you need the dollars, they aren't there.

When credit freezes even more and dollars stop circulating it's really, really nice to have some dollars to spare. And your gold - has no value.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 1:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Quote:
Yeah , we need more immigrants like that...
You jackass. The guy is a Senior Staff Chemist. Would rather have more of him than of you.

Get busy , then ! You can have his baby ?

Go get on his mattress , he wants to 'drive the train'...

He seems like just your 'type' , too !

Best to both of you...Happy gene-splicing !

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 1:07 AM

STILL all you've got ! STILL your best (and only) argument !

***************************************************************

You are a fart in an empty pair of pants.

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 1:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And that's STILL all you've got ! That's STILL your best and only argument !

Got anything to add to the TOPIC ?

BTW - I have lots of dollars. The problem with giving up your dollars for things - gold, argon (or maybe silver, hard to tell with your poor knowledge of chemistry), even real estate - is that when you need the dollars, they aren't there.

When credit freezes even more and dollars stop circulating it's really, really nice to have some dollars to spare. And your gold - has no value.

In that case , what's a 'dollar' ?

Your 'knowledge' of economics , 'frozen' credit , and 'money' in circulation means nothing...

Until you can define what the term means...

That's all you ever manage to do , attempt an 'argument' without being able to define terms and agree upon their meaning...

Yes , you and SignyM are quite the cute couple...You do have that common failing..in common...

Your methodologies are so boringly similar...

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 1:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
STILL all you've got ! STILL your best (and only) argument !

You are a fart in an empty pair of pants.

Stay away from my pants , you methane-eater ! CH4-o-phage !

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 1:24 AM

A dollar - just like gold or argon - is whatever people make of it.

***************************************************************

In all this turmoil, you'd think gold would be soaring. But it isn't - in fact it's gone up a mere 3% over the last week - and is only $10 / oz higher than a year ago - while the DOW has plunged 17%.

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 1:27 AM

Okay , for the slow-kids in the class , and the elevation of the rest , have a look at this :

http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_02/hein111302.html

" In the days of tangible money, or sound money, or even just plain money, as opposed to "credit," the dollar was easy to define: 412.5 grains of standard ( 90% pure ) silver in coin form. The 412.5 grain figure was an average; the coin weighed 416 when minted. When, through wear and tear, its weight fell below 409 grains, it was no longer a dollar, but could be used in trade for a value in proportion to its weight. In general, banks culled out the worn coins and returned them to the mint to be recast. What a simple system! A bank official, asked to define "dollar," could do so in a sentence, without reference to the Comptroller of the Currency, or bank regulations, or "authority over actual ( sic! ) currency." Moreover, he could do so without making a fool of himself by attempts to mislead, confuse, or deceive. He wouldn't even have to piously reiterate "Thank you for your inquiry" every time he gave a long-winded response that had nothing to do with the inquiry.

Money is one of the basics of society. Is it extreme to suggest that without sound money there cannot be a sound society? And if the money is inherently dishonest, what does that say of the people who issue it, or even of the people who accept it? "

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 1:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
A dollar - just like gold or argon - is whatever people make of it.

Well , you're as poor an economist as you are a chemist...Situational ethics cause yet another epic failure
for the ruefully-retarded...

What was the last thing you made of argon ?

How did you manage to change its intrinsic properties ?

Nice try at prevarication , but it's not fooling many folk...

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 1:43 AM

Ehh - you're so good at chemistry you cited Ar which stands for ARGON - not SILVER. Silver is Ag, FYI.

"What was the last thing you made of argon ?"
Plasma. In an ICP-MS. Don't strain your brain at figurin' it. You'll fry.

So, are you saying that gold has the intrinsic chemical property of being valuable ? Because if you are, then you are not only a bad chemist, you are a bad economist.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

FREMDFIRMA

Friday, October 10, 2008 1:49 AM

Quote:
A dollar - just like gold or argon - is whatever people make of it.

Exactly - as is any other item you wanna use as currency or trade, thus giving lie to the whole idea of needing "dollars" and them not being there cause they're tied up in something else, as if barter never occurs in human society ?

Me, I don't take paper, and I certainly don't take plastic... well, not the government kind, although if you brought me a stack of printer paper, some gummed rolling papers and a plastic 50gallon trashcan lid, I'd winterize your scoot for ya in trade...

Fact is, you can use ANYTHING as currency, provided both sides of the transaction agree upon it's value, thus making the entire argument here somewhat ridiculous when it comes to it.

The problem comes when what you value as currency has no value to the person you're offering it to, which can happen with anything, but is most common with an item of zero value in and of itself, a square of rag paper with green dye and ugly pictures on it, is just that, a square of paper, and if folk lose faith in it, not worth a damned thing.

You wouldn't offer a starving guy a krugerrand, he can't eat it so he's not gonna take it unless he knows someone who will take it in exchange for food - so just cut out the middleman and offer him what he wants, right ?

On the other hand, the ability to patch a flat on the spot with a minimum of tools and materials, all of which you have sufficient stocks of, is something no one can deny the value of, be it an eighteen wheeler or a bicycle, and you can demand value for it.

All that said, no offense, but y'all sound like a pair of second graders arguing over a playground toy, I swear...

-Frem

PS. Language is a skill too, and one I happen to suck at, someone who speaks a bunch of em has enough value to me that I would trade with them on quite favorable terms.

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 1:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

...No, here's the real deal.

When the vast majority of people have no money, any money you may have becomes increasingly valuable.

Hey , it didn't work that way for the Russkies...

http://madconomist.com/what-if-us-collapses-soviet-collapse-lessons-ev
ery-american-needs-to-know

But , if you'd ever read the cites that you dispute , you'd already KNOW that...

Once again , your 'knowledge' of a subject is proven to be only 'theoretical' , and never practical...

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 2:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
A dollar - just like gold or argon - is whatever people make of it.

...All that said, no offense, but y'all sound like a pair of second graders arguing over a playground toy, I swear...

-Frem

PS. Language is a skill too, and one I happen to suck at, someone who speaks a bunch of em has enough value to me that I would trade with them on quite favorable terms.

Hey , Frem you flatter this 'senior chemist' character...

I'm not offended by your comment though , cause I'm used to having to put these things into 'bonehead English' easy-reader terms for him...And , his little lap/attack dog , SignyM...

The multi-lingual thing only really works if those languages *happen* to be 'in demand' locally...

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 2:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Ehh - you're so good at chemistry you cited Ar which stands for ARGON - not SILVER. Silver is Ag, FYI.

"What was the last thing you made of argon ?"
Plasma. In an ICP-MS. Don't strain your brain at figurin' it. You'll fry.

So, are you saying that gold has the intrinsic chemical property of being valuable ? Because if you are, then you are not only a bad chemist, you are a bad economist.

Hey , chump , you always take the feint...

Funny that you're one of the few that never notices...

Like I said , Ricardo , a chump...I always make my point , win another round , bring the conversation back on-topic , soon enough...

We've been down this track several times , you've been provided more than enough information to work out the answers , and you still never do...

I've had my experience with inert atmospheres and their respective uses...Argon has been of particular value in plasma-cutting and arc welding...

You folk who insist on flaunting that you're 'scientists' generally only impress yourselves...

No social skills , only theoretical knowledge , little use for reality , situational ethics ; little in the way of survival skills without a gum-or-mint check , don't know when you're over over your heads , argument for the sake of ego rather than info...

What was that dollar-definition of yours ?

Don't even know what it is you want to argue about...AGAIN !

This thread is about economic survival...

Plainly , you've yet to add anything .

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 2:23 AM

from your link

In the United States, very few people own their place of residence free and clear, and even they need an income to pay real estate taxes. People without an income face homelessness. When the economy collapses, very few people will continue to have an income , so homelessness will become rampant.

Since most employment in the United States is in the private sector, we should expect the transition to permanent unemployment to be quite abrupt for most people.

In an economic collapse, there is usually hyperinflation, which wipes out savings. There is also rampant unemployment, which wipes out incomes. The result is a population that is largely penniless.

Since your link cites Russian inflation as a result of the collapse, I thought I'd look it up:

The greatest trauma of the first year of reforms was the high inflation that ripped through Russia, decimating savings and undermining confidence in market reforms. This was often blamed on Gaidar's decision to free prices from controls on January 2, 1990, ending decades of state price-setting. The action followed a similar tactic introduced by Poland two years earlier. In Poland the result had been a single sharp jump in prices, followed by price stability, and once-empty store shelves now filled with goods. In Russia, however, the jump in prices was even sharper; the stores never quite filled with goods (though food shortages did diminish); and the inflation kept barreling on, even nearing hyperinflation by the end of 1992.

The first is from your link - which indicates that the lack of income (ie money) will be a severe threat to most people. So having money is important.

The second is an analysis of the inflation in Russia - in this case not from the collapse itself as your link incorrectly states, but from the reforms that were later imposed.

The US could always become a failed state - like Somalia - where neither paper NOR valuables are used internally - the barter state Frem writes about at best, at worst a state where guns and ammo are the only currency that counts.

But the most common condition during economic collapse is not hyperinflation (which is so rare people still reference Germany's hyperinflation in 1923) or total social collapse like Somalia - it is deflation and economic depression. In which case, your currency will be more valuable than gold.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 2:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

A dollar - just like gold or argon - is whatever people make of it.

***************************************************************

In all this turmoil, you'd think gold would be soaring. But it isn't - in fact it's gone up a mere 3% over the last week - and is only $10 / oz higher than a year ago - while the DOW has plunged 17%.

No it ain't , Rue-Tard !

A dollar is a clearly-defined quantity of something...Oh , right ! Certain Metallic Elements !

A 'chemist' ought to know something about weights and measures , and the periodic table of the Elements...

Maybe you're a 'chemist' in the British sense...and , You're imbibing your own mixtures of psychoactive drugs !

Hey , weren't you just saying Certificates of Deposit would be a good place to put your 'money' ?

In that case , 3% return in only a week ! is
fabulous !

Check again...That 'Dow' is still plummeting...Gold is only UP so far , over the past year...

IMF has been intending to 'dump' some gold to manipulate the exchanges a bit , in which case , it should trend
toward an even BETTER 'Buy' !

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 2:37 AM

"A 'chemist' ought to know something about weights and measures , and the periodic table of the Elements..."
'Valuable' isn't a chemical or physical property - you must really be stupid to keep pointing at the periodic table as if it meant something. OK Einstein - point to me on the periodic table where any value is demarcated. Don't come back till you've got it. In fact, take your time. Take all the time you need.

"Hey , weren't you just saying Certificates of Deposit would be a good place to put your 'money' ?"
And now you have to put words in my mouth in order to have anything to say at all. Lame-ass.

"In that case , 3% return in only a week ! is
fabulous !"
And a return of 1% in an entire year ! Why, that almost kept up with inflation ! Only 6% short ! Oh that's right, gold NEVER loses value. It didn't go DOWN and then go up. It's a time warp, that's what it is.
Idiot.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 3:00 AM

That's how Folk can tell when you've been thrashed...

Your default position whenever you're beaten is to LIE , and attempt Slander...

You're working for the Banksters ? That's their strategy , too !

Won't work...

Enough folk see through your scheme...

You're right about one thing...'Valuable' isn't on the periodic table , but it is ALL ABOUT 'Intrinsic'...

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 3:18 AM

LIE -- where ? Slander ? Where ?

Point it out. Please.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 3:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:

...And a return of 1% in an entire year ! Why, that almost kept up with inflation ! Only 6% short ! Oh that's right, gold NEVER loses value. It didn't go DOWN and then go up. It's a time warp, that's what it is.

Graphical proof that 'rue' is :

1)...a LIAR !

and ,

2)...not an 'Economist' !

Gold , charted October 2007 - October 2008

http://www.kitco.com/charts/historicalgold.html

Silence Is GOLDen...S*T*H*U !

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 3:31 AM

I'm just getting a blank screen.

http://66.38.218.33/scripts/hist_charts/yearly_graphs.plx

is all I can get. But drat, it comes out blank when I click on it.

Whatever.
***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 3:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
I'm just getting a blank screen.

http://66.38.218.33/scripts/hist_charts/yearly_graphs.plx

is all I can get.

Yeah , I noticed THAT about you !

So , you're not a 'Scientist' either...

Can't tick the little checkboxes , even ?

That's sad...

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 3:36 AM

No checkboxes on a blank screen, idiot.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 3:36 AM

Oh , well , day-yam , you're not even on the same page !

Do I have to draw you a MAP ?

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 3:39 AM

Stupid - when I click YOUR link I get a blank page. What are you going to map on a blank page ? Something imaginary ? Is that like gold being 'valuable' because of the periodic table of the elements ? Is that another imaginary reference ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 3:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Stupid - when I click YOUR link I get a blank page. What are you going to map on a blank page ? Something imaginary ? Is that like gold being 'valuable' because of the periodic table of the elements ?

Beat your noggin on a different wall , then...

Hey , other folk seem to be able to make it work...

Remember what I said about ticking the little boxes ?

Tick 'em , October 2-0-0-7 to October 2-0-0-8 , then click the little button for your result...

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 3:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Stupid - when I click YOUR link I get a blank page. What are you going to map on a blank page ? Something imaginary ? Is that like gold being 'valuable' because of the periodic table of the elements ? Is that another imaginary reference ?

I was kidding about you needing a map...I think...

Just click the kitco link I gave you , buddy...

I know you can do this , if you really , REALLY try...

No , that's not imaginary...I hope !

Hey , you can make this Real...Just follow the directions...

Hey , you're not cherry-pickin' the results again , are you ?

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 3:58 AM

Well, I tried going here http://www.kitco.com and even that's not loading.

I give up.

Oh, that's right. I've had problems with the site before. That's one of the reasons I got my gold through APMEX.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 4:19 AM

Oh yes, btw, here's a little collection of YOUR LIES and slander - things you put up when you've lost and have got nothing - just thought I'd put it up here so you don't post-edit like you did changing Ar (ARGON - what a turd) to Ag:

All that , and still didn't learn anything...Such is the scope of human tragedy...

I'll wager that folk like that look durned ridiculous , totin' their used mattresses around , tryin' to trade for commodities that are really in demand...

ruefully-retarded folk

I expect 'em to be stupid , and they never disappoint...Well , they're always disappointing , of course , but the true depths of their persistently-challenged 'mentality' remain fashionably un-plumbed...non compos mentis...

Still , musty mattresses don't exactly make good currency in most parts of the world

--Rue-FULLY-St00pid
Then why'd you bring your nasty mattresses into a discussion of economics ?

Oh , I get it , the 'Ethiopian' moron did that , so it's not your fault...

But I get your point...Filthy lucre...Nasty cotton-rags that you prefer to Lawful Money...

Sooner or later , you'll be able to make a mattress out of all those debt-notes that you prefer...

Fourth language...

Day-yam , that poor sucker is as hard-up for communications as he is for 'friends'...

Why a 4th language ?

'Cause the first three just weren't workin' for him...

Jack of all trades , master of none...

Yeah , we need more immigrants like that...

Didn't know that you played the saw...

So you're musically-talented , too ?

Had you figured for a 'wood-wind player'...

I'm not offended by your comment though , cause I'm used to having to put these things into 'bonehead English' easy-reader terms for him...And , his little lap/attack dog , SignyM...

Hey , chump , you always take the feint...

Funny that you're one of the few that never notices...

Like I said , Ricardo , a chump...

No social skills , only theoretical knowledge , little use for reality , situational ethics ; little in the way of survival skills without a gum-or-mint check , don't know when you're over over your heads , argument for the sake of ego rather than info...

No it ain't , Rue-Tard !

Maybe you're a 'chemist' in the British sense...and , You're imbibing your own mixtures of psychoactive drugs !

Hey , weren't you just saying Certificates of Deposit would be a good place to put your 'money' ?

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 4:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Oh yes, btw, here's a little collection of YOUR LIES and slander - things you put up when you've lost and have got nothing - just thought I'd put it up here so you don't post-edit like you did changing Ar (ARGON - what a turd) to Ag:

Nope...wrong again !

Argon is not 'a turd'...Argon is a gas...

Argon is inert , except possibly at ultra-low temperatures...

Methane , well you could make it from turds...
You could get busy solving some of the 'greenhouse-gas' problem if you'd get crackin' with that...

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 4:48 AM

No -- wrong again. When will you ever get anything right ? YOU'RE the turd for calling silver argon. Yes, I know, in your mind it has SOOoo much value because argon is on the periodic table. You see, it's an element. That's why it's valuable. Because it's an element. It has properties. And can't be changed. That's what makes it an element. And that's why it's valuable ...

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

SHINYGOODGUY

Friday, October 10, 2008 5:13 AM

Yay, Bill Moyers.

Deliverance!

Shiny! Let's be bad guys!

SHINYGOODGUY

Friday, October 10, 2008 5:40 AM

Really interesting article Out2theblack....

It's what I've been saying all along, somebody had to know that this was coming. The gloom and doom reported on the news was to get everyone to panic and agree that the bastards must be saved to save our way of life.

But it's scary how all this is coming to pass and the Treasury Secretary now has absolute power. No one can question or even vote him out. Hell not even the courts can question his authority. Scary!

This country is being taken over by the Neocons, slowly but surely and we are all standing by watching this unfold before our eyes. We are watching McCain, Palin and Obama while our country, our beautiful country is BURNING!

If JFK were alive today, he would truly die.

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 5:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Ehh - you're so good at chemistry you cited Ar which stands for ARGON - not SILVER. Silver is Ag, FYI.

Well , it was YOU who wanted to get situational and esoteric , saying that all these
sorts of elemental things are ONLY what we make of them...

That's why I was sure to clarify , 'Argentum'...

...In the hope that you'd follow my meaning , with no mistaking of terms...

Thanks for the compliment about my understanding of chemistry...

Unfortunately , coming from you , it means absolutely nothing...

I was cross-referencing from memory...You may not relate to that...

You know , because , historically , the abbreviation 'Ar' for Argentum , aka 'Silver' , predates the periodic chart ,
and most of what modern folk know as 'chemistry'...

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Argent

It comes from heraldry , actually :

Heraldry is the practice of designing, displaying, describing and recording coats of arms ...

...argent is the tincture of Silver

Silver is a chemical element with the symbol Ag , and belongs to the class of light tinctures ,
called "metals". It is very frequently depicted as White...

White is a color that has high brightness but zero hue ... and usually considered interchangeable with it.

There are a number of uses for the word Argentum , or may be indicated with the abbreviation ar. in them.

The name derives from Latin .

Latin is an ancient Indo-European language originally spoken in Latium...

Argentum , which means 'white money', or Silver...

The word argent had the same meaning in Old French , 'Blazon'.

In heraldry and vexillology , a blazon is a formal description of ,
most often, a coat of arms ,
from which it passed into the English language .

...a kind of silver leaf was applied to those parts of the device that were argent."

Didn't mean to go all 'medieval' on you , but it does kinda reveal you to be a 'one-trick pony'...

It's what 'rue' would call a 'typo'...

Since your logic devices are failing you , and you can't access historical data about the value of gold , here's a chart that shows the historic performance of a Lawful $...Notice that the 'dollar' does best during periods when its 'value' is pegged to designated amounts of Metal...Just for review , kids :

OUT2THEBLACK

Friday, October 10, 2008 6:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
Really interesting article Out2theblack....

It's what I've been saying all along, somebody had to know that this was coming. The gloom and doom reported on the news was to get everyone to panic and agree that the bastards must be saved to save our way of life...

...If JFK were alive today, he would truly die.

Tom Jefferson , too .

And Ben Franklin...And many others who made great sacrifice , took great risks , to create the ideal in the first place...

Yes , you are correct...This crash was engineered , as was the 'bailout'...All written at least , months in advance , same as the 'Patriot Act'...

RUE

Friday, October 10, 2008 5:22 PM

From YOUR post:

"Silver is a chemical element with the symbol Ag , and belongs to the class of light tinctures, called "metals". It is very frequently depicted as White..." Weird, they say the same thing I said. The symbol for silver is Ag.

Yes I understand it was a typo. But I can say the exact same thing about argon that you say about silver. It's valuable because it's an element and has properties that can't be changed which are intrinsic and that's why it's valuable. I can say that about ANY element.

VALUE is a HUMAN notion that we assign to all things, not a chemical or physical property. You won't find it on the periodic table of elements for a good reason.

As for the Constitution, it says this:

Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution
The Congress shall have Power . . .
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States; . . .

and

Section 10 - Powers prohibited of States
No State shall ... coin Money ... make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts

There is nothing in the Constitution that says gold or silver, or any other form of currency is THE national legal standard.

Your chart is an interesting one because among other things it shows that there are times when the country was on the gold standard, the value of the dollar tanked, and it was TURNED AROUND by going OFF the gold standard.

Finally, Nixon took the US off the final gasp of the gold standard in order to create money to fund the Vietnam War. It's not the lack of the gold standard that's at fault - it's the government polices regarding government debt.

There is nothing intrinsic about the value of gold or silver, just as there is nothing intrinsic about the value of wampum or baseball trading cards or even dollars. Like any commodity, any currency, any item, they are only worth whatever you can exchange them for. And that depends on demand.

***************************************************************

Silence is consent.

PIRATENEWS

Friday, October 10, 2008 5:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by out2theblack:

That's an anti-semitic cartoon against private central banksters!

Quote:
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
-President Thomas Jefferson, author of Declaration of Independence and US Constitution

"The Bank, Mr. Van Buren, is trying to kill me, but I will kill it!"
-President General Andrew Jackson
www.dailykos.com/story/2006/12/7/221733/660

"I cannot believe that the killing of 2,000 Englishmen at New Orleans qualifies a person for the various difficult and complicated duties of the Presidency."
-Henry Clay

"After eight years as President I have only two regrets: that I have not shot Henry Clay or hanged John C. Calhoun."
-President General Andrew Jackson

President Andrew Jackson speech to veto the private 2nd Bank of the United States
www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/presiden/veto/ajveto01.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bank_of_the_United_States

Private foreign banksters hire a dozen assassins to kill President General Andrew Jackson who was shot a dozen different times
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson

Quote:
"I killed the Bank!"
-Tombstone of President General Andrew Jackson, which does not mention that he served as a president of the United States