In Frantic Day, Wall Street Banks Teeter
POSTED BY: rue
UPDATED: Monday, March 13, 2023 18:18
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http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/15/business/15lehman.html?hp
In Frantic Day, Wall Street Banks Teeter
In one the most extraordinary days in Wall Street’s in history, Merrill Lynch is near an 11th-hour deal with Bank of America to avert a deepening financial crisis while another storied securities firm, Lehman Brothers, hurtled toward liquidation, according to people briefed on the deal.
The dramatic turn of events was prompted by the cataclysm of losses that has shaken the American financial industry over the last 14 months.
The moves came after a weekend of frantic negotiations between federal officials and Wall Street executives over how to avert a downward spiral in the markets. Questions still remain about how the market will react and whether other firms may still falter like A.I.G., the large insurer, and Washington Mutual, both of whose stocks fell precipitously last week.
Coming just a week after the government took control of mortgage lenders Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the magnitude of the industry’s reshaping is staggering: two of the most powerful firms on Wall Street, Merrill Lynch and Lehman, will disappear.
***************************************************************
Great economy ! Fantastic ! Eh, Rap ?
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AIG shares lost 41% of their value, while WaMu lost 36%. Looks like the economy really IS on fire - and it might just burn down the whole house - or at least the housing market!
This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.
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I think Merrill might survive but many other banks will collapse and this whole cris ain't good for the eocnomy, its going to damage the US dollar
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Quote:
Originally posted by JaynezTown:
I think Merrill might survive but many other banks will collapse and this whole cris ain't good for the eocnomy, its going to damage the US dollar
You mean it's going to damage the dollar even MORE?
Yikes!
This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.
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This thread would most honestly be titled ,
" Destruction of the US Dollar III "...
Destruction , I : http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=34184
Destruction , II : http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=18&t=34664
And the NYTimes article would more honestly say ,
" In Frantic WEEKEND , Wall Street Banks Rush Secretly To Avert CRASH ! "
This disaster wasn't created in just a day...
It will take a lot more than a day to cover all the losses , too.
Indeed , Greenspan alluded to the facts in his analysis , which was quoted in the article :
“This is a once-in-a-half-century, probably once-in-a-century type of event,” Mr. Greenspan said in an interview on ABC.
“I think the argument has got to be that there are certain types of institutions which are so fundamental to the functioning of the movement of savings into real investment in an economy that on very rare occasions — and this is one of them — it’s desirable to prevent them from liquidating in a sharply disruptive manner.”
Well Duh , Al !
This is a disaster virtually unprecedented in the nearly 100-year history of the 'Federal Reserve'...And , another good reason not to let greedy 'private' interests remain in control of the nation's 'money supply'....
This 'Creature from Jekyll Island' is still a bad idea , so many years on , and the ACTUAL Order Of Things is further betrayed at article's end :
“My sense is that the systemic question will be the only question on the table if Lehman falters,” he continued. “If systemic risk is considered grave, the Fed, perhaps with Treasury playing at least an advisory role, will intervene.”
That was James Leach , former Republican CONgressman (IA) and Chairman of the House Banking Committee , admitting to the actual relationship between " the people's " US Treasury , and its Masters , the privately-owned 'Federal Reserve'...
Hey , ain't it decent of the Banksters to allow the US Treasury to 'play' at least an ADVISORY role ?
" The mistakes made with excessive credit at artificially low rates are huge, and the market is demanding a correction. This involves excessive debt, misdirected investments, over-investments, and all the other problems caused by the government when spending the money they should never have had. Foreign militarism, welfare handouts and $80 trillion entitlement promises are all coming to an end. We don’t have the money or the wealth-creating capacity to catch up and care for all the needs that now exist because we rejected the market economy, sound money, self reliance and the principles of liberty. "
--Ron Paul , July 4th , 2008
" If the American people ever allow private banks
to control the issue of their money,
first by inflation and then by deflation,
the banks and corporations that will
grow up around them (around the banks),
will deprive the people of their property
until their children will wake up homeless
on the continent their fathers conquered. "
--Thomas Jefferson
Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes her laws.
--Mayer Amschel Rothschild
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Quote:
Originally posted by JaynezTown:
I think Merrill might survive but many other banks will collapse and this whole crisis ain't good for the economy, its going to damage the US dollar
Survive ?
After a fashion...
It looks like Merrill Lynch will also be picked up by BofA , but what must be borne in mind afterward , is that
the bigger ones will fall harder , when their turn comes...
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Deep down, I really just want to see them all crash and burn. Does that make me a bad person?
Edit: Of course the problem with that is... we've accepted the notion that the government is there to protect us all from our bad decisions. Which means that we'll ending up footing the bill for these greedy bastards. Gotta love the nanny.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Economic Collapse?
http://scotterb.wordpress.com/2008/09/15/economic-collapse/
Quote:
In the post “Future Uncertain” last June, one commentator named Mike wrote:
“An economic collaspe is not only concieveable but it is HIGHY likely. The mainstream media is not telling people the full extent of the credit market woes. Ten of billions (Possible up to a trillion) more dollars will be wote down by banks in the coming months. It would one thing if the toxic watse dumping was finished but these banks are going to flood the market with a lot more of these bad loans. The markets can’t withstand any more…. The Dow will most likely be below 10,000 by the end of July…”
Now, Mike’s prediction of the Dow below 10,000 by July turned out to be wrong, but as we watch the markets wobble over the problems at Lehman, it is becoming painfully clear that Mike may have been off primarily in his timing. The United States could be facing the most severe economic crisis since the Great Depression. We just can’t tell how deep the problems are, or how they’ll play themselves out. But consider the drama of the past couple weeks. First, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are literally taken over by the government.
We’re talking about nationalization of the most important financial backers of home mortgages, seized by a Republican pro-market government, obviously without enthusiasm. The reason they took over these giants is that they had no choice — if they failed, the mortgage market in the US would have ground to a halt, unleashing tremendous economic hardship to just about every sector of the economy. Why this happened was clear: close ties between these two corporations and government had led to laws that made it progressively easier for them to back mortgages without oversight. That’s fine when the market is booming and home values soaring. But when the bubble bursts, it was disaster.
Is this a domino effect that could reck havoc throughout the entire banking sector? Is this a limited problem? Nobody knows, but as with Enron a decade ago, it’s possible that the financial sector has been skating buy the last few years with accounting tricks and short term book keeping shemes to avoid having to publicly admit how bad things are. Consider: you might be making a decent salary, but yet due to purchases and poor spending habits, be in severe debt. For a long time you can keep this secret from your closest friends and in some cases, even a spouse. You can kite credit cards (get a new card to make minimums on the old), do home equity loans, find ways to make that debt something that isn’t felt in your day to day life. It may drive you crazy when you think about it, but you can usually find ways to get by another day. This can go on for years.
But when things start to go south, they go south fast. Soon you’re missing payments. Then suddenly interest rates jump from below 10% to above 20%. Suddenly you can’t get new loans, your house has negative equity and the result is personal financial collapse or bankruptcy. Now, what if the banking sector as a whole has this sort of problem? Drunk on the easy money and loose credit of the early part of the decade, they got themselves in over their head, perhaps expecting continued economic growth to simply allow them to go on making large short term profits. It wouldn’t be consumerism in this case, but “buying” more interest-bearing loans, with the idea that the money will be paid back and profits would rise. When the bubble bursts, then the whole thing implodes, as happened at Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, and now Lehman.
One hopes that the other financial giants are on solider ground, but we’re not sure how solid, or who might be next. The fact that it’s so difficult to find other firms to buy Lehman and limit the scope of this credit shows the relative weakness of the entire financial industry. Add to that the troubled economic conditions: continued high oil prices (even if not as a high as mid-summer), a current accounts deficit, a weak dollar, and high unemployment. TheNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Deep down, I really just want to see them all crash and burn. Does that make me a bad person?
No. Just because you want all those innocent people out there to suffer, people who work hard trying to make ends meet, raise families and have modest homes in safe neighborhoods to raise their children. That does not make you bad. Just because you would rejoice at something that will cause untold suffering from a global economic collapse.
Naw...your a fine old fella you are.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Deep down, I really just want to see them all crash and burn. Does that make me a bad person?
No. Just because you want all those innocent people out there to suffer, people who work hard trying to make ends meet, raise families and have modest homes in safe neighborhoods to raise their children. That does not make you bad. Just because you would rejoice at something that will cause untold suffering from a global economic collapse.
Naw...your a fine old fella you are.
H
Yeah... you should repent your sins by invading a nation and killing hundreds of thousands of its innocent civilian population! Now THAT is how you pay penance!
'Course, there are schools of thought that say that no one is truly innocent...
This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
...all those innocent people out there to suffer, people who work hard trying to make ends meet, raise families and have modest homes in safe neighborhoods to raise their children.
Hmmm... that's a good point. But if people like you will take it in the shorts, that sort balances it out.
Nah... I don't feel bad. We've been offshoring our suffering for years with our Wall street shenanigans. And every time a correction is due, we sweep it under the carpet with bailouts, deficit spending and market manipulation. Gotta pay the piper at some point.
The only thing that bothers me is that taxpayers will likely take the hit rather that sleezy bastards who run the game. Gotta love the nanny state. Leave no millionaire behind!
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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THE FALLOUT
Quote:(sotto voce That's what they think)
"But it's not the end of capitalism," he said.
Quote:Now, if THAT isn't a moronic truism if I ever heard one!!! hee hee hee
"This may usher in something worse than what we've seen in terms of the economy, but the companies left standing at the end of this will be OK."
Quote:
Art Hogan, chief market strategist for Jefferies & Co., said the magnitude of the financial industry fallout is unprecedented, and could only be compared to the Great Depression of the 1930s or the railroad bankruptcies of the 1800s.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/15/markets/markets_newyork2/index.htm?cnn
=yes
---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
The only thing that bothers me is that taxpayers will likely take the hit rather that sleezy bastards who run the game. Gotta love the nanny state. Leave no millionaire behind!
It won't be the billionaires that really suffer if the government just stepped aside either. This way taxpayers are probably going to be hurt a lot less. Still sucks to be bailing out rich greedy bastards who are entirely at fault for their and our predicament, especially when they're often the same people who campaign against government protection of poor folk, but it's a case of damage limitation.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Of course the problem with that is... we've accepted the notion that the government is there to protect us all from our bad decisions.
Who's we, pale-face?
It might be very nice if the government had come along and protected me from my bad decisions in my life. Seriously, this is where the Libertarian rhetoric loses me. The only bad decisions this government seems to protect anyone from are corporate. Oh, and o' course, the bad decisions of the government itself! Who's being protected from the ruinous decision to go into Iraq? Not, our thousands of dead soldiers. Just Bush & co.
Sarge, that ain't a nanny, that's more like Mommy Dearest.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
The only thing that bothers me is that taxpayers will likely take the hit rather that sleezy bastards who run the game. Gotta love the nanny state. Leave no millionaire behind!
Yup - apparently the idiots behind Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are still eligible for their multi-million dollar bonuses! How fucked up is that?
"Well, Roger, you really screwed the pooch and flushed the company's liquidity and rich history right down the ol' shitter... Good job, and here's a hundred million dollars! Keep up the good work!"
Mike
This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.
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I have some questions....
I'd appreciate honest answers that are not politically biased or motivated :
Where was the Federal Reserve while all this was going on?
Would this be going on now if Greenspan was still the Chairman and not Bernake?
Where was the Senate & House Banking Committees while all this was going on?
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The government should have left Fannie and Freddie to burn.
Let the chips fall where they may. Maybe houses wont be so ridiculously priced then.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Who's we, pale-face?
It might be very nice if the government had come along and protected me from my bad decisions in my life. Seriously, this is where the Libertarian rhetoric loses me. The only bad decisions this government seems to protect anyone from are corporate. Oh, and o' course, the bad decisions of the government itself! Who's being protected from the ruinous decision to go into Iraq? Not, our thousands of dead soldiers. Just Bush & co.
Sarge, that ain't a nanny, that's more like Mommy Dearest.
Call it what you like. It's bullshit. If you're saying the corporate bailouts are the first kind of welfare that ought to be done away with, I heartily agree. If your saying that it's hypocritical for conservatives to complain about welfare for the poor and then approve of corporate bailouts, I agree again.
But if we're going to accept the notion that the government is there to do any bailing out at all, it will be those with the money and power to control things who win. That's what I find ironic, and the point I wish my liberal friends could come to terms with.
I'm enthusiastically in favor of helping out the poor - even the one who are there because of their own 'bad decisions*'. But government is not the right tool for the job. Like using law enforcement to tackle drug addiction, or our military to fend off terrorism, the effort is misguided and does more harm than good in the long run.
* I'm not using 'bad decisions' here in a judgmental way - I've made too many of my own. The problem I have with the safety net mentality is that setting the government up to protect us from the results of our own decisions inevitably invites it to prevent us from making those decisions in first place.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:Ultimately, that would lead to revolution. But the govt is trying to preserve the status quo.
The government should have left Fannie and Freddie to burn.
---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
The government should have left Fannie and Freddie to burn.
Let the chips fall where they may. Maybe houses wont be so ridiculously priced then.
Oh yeah, thats a good idea.
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"
FORSAKEN original
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi
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Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Oh yeah, thats a good idea.
Wulfenstar's posts:
Not a repository of sense or good ideas
.More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Of course its a good idea. Its called the Free Market Economy.
Just because folks were too stupid to read their loans shouldn't mean that the rest of us should pay to keep them in their McMansions.
Throw all of the idiots out, and let people with a modicum of financial sense move in.
But the Nanny State doesn't want that. They want to keep the status quo. Both the Dems and Repubs share the blame for that. Tho, they do it for different reasons.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Call it what you like. It's bullshit. If you're saying the corporate bailouts are the first kind of welfare that ought to be done away with, I heartily agree. If your saying that it's hypocritical for conservatives to complain about welfare for the poor and then approve of corporate bailouts, I agree again.
But if we're going to accept the notion that the government is there to do any bailing out at all, it will be those with the money and power to control things who win. That's what I find ironic, and the point I wish my liberal friends could come to terms with.
You're lumping several different issues together.
1.) Bad decisions (speculation, abject dependency on fossil fuel, waging a war we can't win).
2.) Straight up bad luck (natural disaster, your company downsizing you out of a job), and...
3.) The lefties' favorite, class warfare (it takes money to make money, those who need health insurance most because of insane health costs, are the least able to afford it or afford to live without it, underfunded schools in poorer and blacker parts of town, corporations having more rights than people, rich folk having vastly greater access to law enforcement, legal aid and medical care, etc).
So I'm all for not subsidizing bad decisions. That only encourages you to make them, after all. But giving folks a safety net to fall into if the worst should occur, I'm happy to pay taxes for that. Paying for schools and social security, you bet! I got no problem with the idea that various agencies can handle large relief efforts better than I can myself. With class warfare, I really think government can even the playing field immensely. Everyone in a free society should have access, and government at the present time, seems in a positon to ensure that access in many areas.
Your philosophy seems to arise from the premise that all government is fundamentally destructive and I can see your point--I'm an anarchist at heart, but the fantasy that you can have some kind of hands-off governmental system within our current governmental paradigm and not see thousands if not millions of have-nots exploited by a few haves makes no sense to me at all.
We either have to start from scratch, or work with what we got (that's why I fully understand your semi-desire to see the whole nasty system go down in flames, so folk can see the truth). But what we got right now, is a.) people in government who want to help, and b.) people in government who don't give a crap about you and me. Is it bullshit to encourage the former and attempt to discourage the latter? Seems to me, what you're talking about amounts to cynically discounting the former and leaving us in the wolfish hands of the latter.
More and more, I see politics as a compromise. I think it's stupid to let your State and the Federal Government be run by Coke and Pepsi, except every 4 years when the would-be radicals shoot-the-moon and put up their poster-boys and girls for President of the United States. I think it's hubris and pure self-destructive fantasy. Even if one of 'em got in, they'd have an entire Congress full of Coke and Pepsi to contend with. Ron Paul has been the most credible 3rd party candidate in my lifetime, because the Libertarians bother to get people into power at the lower and median levels of government. They actually amount to a faction for practical change in this country. But they gotta long way to go, and in the mean time, whata we do with our democracy?
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Saw a headline today...
"McCain, Obama promise Wall Street overhaul"
Got me thinkin that once upon a time, Mario Buda tried some remodeling of his own.
And while I found the means, method and end result unacceptable...
I have always silently pondered it, because the rise of crony-vulture-welfare capitalism and it's incest-like relationship with the Fedgov, if you run it down historically, was in fact due to a very small cadre of people, many of whom are held up by our propagandised history as laudable in spite of committing some of the most vile actions ever seen on this continent.
Thus Buda and companions wanted them dead.
Looking back up the pipe eighty-some and more years later, climbing over the endless history of carnage those people and their descendants, their little dynasties and influence on policy have caused...
I have to wonder if Buda had maybe a better point than folk ever realised.
==================================================
WULFENSTAR
Quote:
The government should have left Fannie and Freddie to burn.
SIGNYM
Quote:
Ultimately, that would lead to revolution. But the govt is trying to preserve the status quo.
Frankly, fuck the status quo - trying to preserve their little us-lords, you-peons dynamic isn't worth us peons laying down and taking the whipping any more when someone up the line of lords fucks up.
And not all revolutions are needlessly violent, or even necessarily violent at all.
You know damn well imma waitin in the wings for a chance to light the fuse the minute I think more will be gained than lost by it.
==================================================
To be absolutely honest, some long standing folk might have noticed that over time, my response to the question of things coming apart went from *IF*... to *WHEN*.
HKC, I too would like things to evolve to a better way, but alas, that is NOT going to happen - it's all gonna go to hell first, and like I said, a matter of when, all we can do is prolong the inevitable.
And if it's gonna happen, I would prefer it happen when we still have at least a minimum of resources, people with an actual education and critical thought process, and the means/ability to limit the damage.
Or we can stall it off by handing more and more power to the Fedgov and supporting it's abuses till when it does come apart, we got no resources left, a fully compliant, unarmed, medicated into submission populace unable to handle life without someone telling them what to do, and no means to put things right again, nor the ability/inclination to learn how.
And you and I know this is true, when you look at the big picture, we're just buying time, is all it is, and for every chunk of time we buy, the Gov sells us a rope with it.
And I think we need to speculate too hard what that is for, do we now ?
Me, now, I am ponding the odds, lookin at the fuse, and waiting for the cabal to blink.
Given how things will go, sure, my quality of life is gonna royally suck either way about it.....
But I damn well mean to leave my nieces a better legacy than the sum of OUR failures.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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http://www.reuters.com/article/hotStocksNews/idUSN0842492020080916
The U.S. dollar slumped against the yen on Tuesday as risk aversion accelerated on the back of plunging equities following a bankruptcy protection filing by Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc .
Investors in Tokyo had their first chance to fully react to the Lehman debacle as Japanese markets were closed on Monday for a public holiday.
They returned from the long weekend by selling the dollar, pushing the U.S. currency, which had already suffered its biggest one-day loss against the yen in nine years on Monday on risk aversion, to a new two-month low versus the yen.
The Nikkei stock average .N225 slid 4.7 percent on Tuesday in response to a tumbling Wall Street that sent the Dow Jones industrial average down 4.4 percent. .T .N
"We are watching Tokyo shares closely after U.S. stocks took such heavy hits in response to Lehman. The yen stands favored against its major peers such as the dollar under these circumstances," said a dealer at a Japanese securities house.
"The dollar also looks out of favor with talk that the Fed may ease monetary policy later in the day," the dealer said.
There is speculation that the Federal Reserve, which will hold a regular policy meeting on Tuesday, may cut interest rates again.
The dollar slipped 0.5 percent to 104.14 yen, on track toward a four-month low of 103.77 yen. The euro stood little changed at $1.4236, off the near-term peak of $1.4482 struck on Monday.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Saw a headline today...
"McCain, Obama promise Wall Street overhaul"
Got me thinkin that once upon a time, Mario Buda tried some remodeling of his own.
And while I found the means, method and end result unacceptable...
I have always silently pondered it, because the rise of crony-vulture-welfare capitalism and it's incest-like relationship with the Fedgov, if you run it down historically, was in fact due to a very small cadre of people, many of whom are held up by our propagandised history as laudable in spite of committing some of the most vile actions ever seen on this continent.
Thus Buda and companions wanted them dead.
Looking back up the pipe eighty-some and more years later, climbing over the endless history of carnage those people and their descendants, their little dynasties and influence on policy have caused...
I have to wonder if Buda had maybe a better point than folk ever realised.
==================================================
WULFENSTARQuote:
The government should have left Fannie and Freddie to burn.
SIGNYMQuote:
Ultimately, that would lead to revolution. But the govt is trying to preserve the status quo.
...And not all revolutions are needlessly violent, or even necessarily violent at all.
You know damn well imma waitin in the wings for a chance to light the fuse the minute I think more will be gained than lost by it.
==================================================
To be absolutely honest, some long standing folk might have noticed that over time, my response to the question of things coming apart went from *IF*... to *WHEN*.
Oh , okay...
I feel SO much better NOW , knowing that 'the candidates' have gotten up to speed on all this , since only 'bout a week ago , they weren't...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20080909/pl_mcclatchy/3040652
" Federal deficit soaring, but McCain, Obama offer no answers "
Wow , what 'quick studies' they've both proven to be...
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HK,
Always enjoy reading your posts. FFFans is a better place when you post.
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Your philosophy seems to arise from the premise that all government is fundamentally destructive and I can see your point--
But that's not really my pov. It's not that government is destructive. The issue is that government achieves its ends by use of force. That makes it unique as a social entity. The end result for anyone defying the will of government is that they're looking down the barrel of a gun.
That's not always bad. Violent criminals deserve nothing less. But I think that using force to achieve our ends should be a matter of last resort. If our goals can be achieve by voluntary means, they should be.
Quote:
Seems to me, what you're talking about amounts to cynically discounting the former and leaving us in the wolfish hands of the latter.
I'll cop to cynical. Disillusioned at the very least. Part of my concern is in the abstract. Most voters have no clear idea of what the purpose of government is.
Many years ago I read a very insightful article by Joseph Sobran. He began by pointing out that often, historically, the identifying characteristic of a culture was invisible to the inhabitants of that time and place. He made the claim that the identifying characteristic of our culture was the view that government was the be-all, end-all, of social existence.
He compared our view of government to role of the church in medieval Europe. The people of that time and place looked to the church as the omnipotent arbiter of all things. They may have complained about it, they may have loved it or hated it, but none of them questioned it. None of them doubted it's role or authority.
That's how most people see government today, and I think it's leading us in really dangerous directions - morally, culturally, spiritually. This is where I see modern liberalism departing from the enlightened philosophies that formed our nation in the first place, and driving us toward something that will, ultimately, be as constraining and damaging to humanity as the medieval church.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Possible Global Recession Looming
Asia-Pacific Market Recap: Nikkei, Aussie Dollar Hit New Lows Post-Lehman News
http://www.economicnews.ca/cepnews/wire/article/119977
The Nikkei fell over 5.0% today, the lowest fall in more than three years after Japanese markets had their first chance to react to the news of Lehman's bankruptcy following a holiday on Monday.
Lehman Brothers filed for protection against creditors today in Tokyo.
Nevertheless, Japanese Finance Minister Bunmei Ibuki said he doesn't see panic in forex and stock markets.
The Hang Seng opened 5.3% lower.
Meanwhile, the Aussie Dollar hit a fresh one-year low below 0.7900 today. Later in the day Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said the country's exposure to the Lehman fall was "modest."
The Yen is up against majors on risk reduction following the announcement that two major U.S. banking institutions, Lehman Brothers and Merrill Lynch, have ceased to exist. Sue Trinh, senior currency strategist with RBC Capital Markets said the Japanese Yen is "surging across the board."
Asia-Pacific fixed income markets are gaining and equities are lower with yields on Australian 10-year bonds down 9.0 bps to 5.48 % and Japanese 10-year government bonds down 13.0 bps to 1.41 %.
Sydney's S&P ASX 200 is down 107.30 points to 4710.398.
The Japanese Nikkei is down 627.28 points to 11587.48 and the Hang Seng down 1036.10 points to 18316
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Those who've been following this crisis for more than a tick know that insurer AIG is scrambling to raise some capital , like Lehman Bros. was doing , just a week ago...
Turns out , AIG is the risk-taker holding the bond on the massive amount of leased space that Lehman occupied in London...
Seems that won't do anything to give AIG any ease , since Lehman filed bankruptcy Monday...
http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/canary-wharf-owner-says-lehmans/
story.aspx?guid=%7BAFC169BE-277C-4B14-842F-55FD1B027C1D%7D&dist=msr_4
" The current rent payable by Lehmans is 41 pounds a square foot which will rise to 53 pounds in November 2008. The Lehman rent is included in a 2.55 billion pound securitized fund backed by a unit of American International Group..."
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Quote:Sarge- Don't corporations use their own security? Haven't they beaten and killed union organizers in the past? (see Pinkerton). Don't the Mafia and the Yakuza use force? Don't gangs use force? Heck, even parents use force!
But that's not really my pov. It's not that government is destructive. The issue is that government achieves its ends by use of force. That makes it unique as a social entity. The end result for anyone defying the will of government is that they're looking down the barrel of a gun.
I would hardly say that government is UNIQUE in using force. So try to clarify what you really mean, because that just doesn't make sense.
---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Quote:
Those who've been following this crisis for more than a tick know that insurer AIG is scrambling to raise some capital , like Lehman Bros. was doing , just a week ago...
Turns out , AIG is the risk-taker holding the bond on the massive amount of leased space that Lehman occupied in London...
Seems that won't do anything to give AIG any ease , since Lehman filed bankruptcy Monday...
And it was reported last night that AIG was scrambling to borrow money FROM ITSELF to try to fend off a collapse, since the Fed said, "Thanks, but No Thanks" yesterday to bailing them out or putting up $40billion to shore up AIG's bad investments.
Seems to me, once you start kiting checks to yourself to put off the inevitable, that's when you're well and truly screwed. Kinda like the Administration has been doing for the last 7.5 years...
Mike
This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Where was the Federal Reserve while all this was going on?
20th Street and Constitution Avenue NW, Washington, DC 20551
Quote:
Would this be going on now if Greenspan was still the Chairman and not Bernake?
No. He would have cut interest rates sooner. He was a smart fella.
Quote:
Where was the Senate & House Banking Committees while all this was going on?
Busy running for President, investigating the President, or getting cheap home loans from bankers and lenders.
H
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Quote:
Originally posted by JaynezTown:
Possible Global Recession Looming
Or not.
In perspective we are really only as bad off as we were after 9/11. Not nearly as bad as say...the later 1970's when we had double digit inflation and unemployment and the Eagles had to hold open tryouts to find players for their team...great movie, you want economic downturn, you watch that movie.
Not to mention the 1930's when half the homes were in foreclosure (compared to 2-3% today) and a quarter of folks were out of work and we needed and poor Jimmy Braddock was forced to beg for a bowl of hash so he would not have to fight on an empty stomach...great movie...you want economic collapse, you watch that movie.
H
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HERO, as one government teat-sucker to another: You really should have more sympathy for those out in the cold cruel world.
---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Quote:
“The fundamentals of our economy are strong.”
-John Songbird McCain, Black Monday 2008, as Jewish Lehman Bros filed the world's largest bankruptcy
McCain Sells Immigration Amnesty in Spanish Only TV ads
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/15/mccain_revives_i
mmigration_deb.html
Lehman Bros, aren't they the bastards who speculated on oil, driving the price to $150/barrell, and gas prices to $5.35/gallon in Tennessee this week?
This week my wife asked the illegal aliens to take out the trash (using sign language), which was overflowing on the restaurant floor during rush hour. But the illegal aliens wanted to stay on break and refused to do it. The general manger told my wife to leave the illegal aliens alone, that "nobody tells them what to do", "they'll get around to it when they feel like it", and "you aren't GM material". Effing MS13 gangbangers. So she got a new job today.
Out of her past 5 jobs in restaurant management in Tennessee, 4 have hired large numbers of illegal aliens, using fake ID and fake Social Security numbers. That's billion-dollar 5-star corporations and fast food empires with 15,000 employees. Wages are taking a nosedive, with US citizens barely above minumum wage, and illegal aliens getting up to $15/hour, and now taking management jobs, even when they speak zero English.
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Quote:
Those who've been following this crisis for more than a tick know that insurer AIG is scrambling to raise some capital , like Lehman Bros. was doing , just a week ago...
Turns out , AIG is the risk-taker holding the bond on the massive amount of leased space that Lehman occupied in London...
Seems that won't do anything to give AIG any ease , since Lehman filed bankruptcy Monday...
And it was reported last night that AIG was scrambling to borrow money FROM ITSELF to try to fend off a collapse, since the Fed said, "Thanks, but No Thanks" yesterday to bailing them out or putting up $40billion to shore up AIG's bad investments.
Seems to me, once you start kiting checks to yourself to put off the inevitable, that's when you're well and truly screwed. Kinda like the Administration has been doing for the last 7.5 years...
Yes...Truly Screwed...
The partisanship will have to be put aside , because the problems are systemic , and there's plenty of negligence (and blame) across the entire system...
This problem is really at least a century old , and it must be pulled up at its roots , rather than hacked at in its branches...
Meanwhile , more about the AIG thing :
Fed Said to Reverse Stance, Consider AIG Loan Package (Update3)
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a5hqE4P66CeM&refer
=home
" AIG was given special permission to access $20 billion of capital in its subsidiaries to free liquidity, New York Governor David Paterson said yesterday. The insurer has one day to raise $75 billion to $80 billion, Paterson told CNBC today. The insurer may file bankruptcy tomorrow, the network said, citing unnamed people close to the company."
There's also a Vid Link on the same page , with commentary , titled :
" Bevan says AIG Failure would send US into Tailspin "
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And Goldman Sachs today announced that its earnings were off by 71%.
Loverly...
M
This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.
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What was the first rule of Fight Club again?
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I didn't see the movie. What was that rule?
BTW, so here I was feeling safe 'cause I don't invest thru Lehman Bros, and what should happen? My broker called up and told me that one of my investments was underwritten by said company. Not worthless, but DEFINITELY not 100% principal protected anymore!
BTW, just out of curiosity, I had earlier googled up my investment firm, UBS + bankruptcy. It's nice to know "they" don't think UBS will go bankrupt. (NOT. If you have to say it won't happen there are already serious concerns.)
---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Fed takes over AIG - $85 loan
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/16/news/companies/AIG/index.htm?cnn=yes
I'm sensing a quickly escalating panic. Are you?
---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Signy, I heartily recommend you see the movie. Trust me, it's NOT just a bunch of idiots beating on each other, and it bears more than a little resemblance to what's going on down on Wall Street today.
Oh, and the Number One Rule of Fight Club? I can't say, without breaking the rule.
:)
This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.
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Keep an eye on DiTech & GMAC, too. There are an awful lot of people who bought into ARMs who also bought into 72-, 84-, and 96-month car notes on cars they absolutely could not afford (Escalade, for example), and cars that are now worth far less than those people owe on them.
My gut feeling is that this might just be getting started...
Will it be the total collapse of our economic system and our way of life? Doubtful - most likely the weaker firms will end up being bought or leveraged by foreign investors, much like what happened in the 80s, when flush Japanese investors started buying up many American companies. The companies will probably survive; the "little people"? They're expendable, or so it would seem...
Mike
This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
Keep an eye on DiTech & GMAC, too. There are an awful lot of people who bought into ARMs who also bought into 72-, 84-, and 96-month car notes on cars they absolutely could not afford (Escalade, for example), and cars that are now worth far less than those people owe on them.
My gut feeling is that this might just be getting started...
Will it be the total collapse of our economic system and our way of life? Doubtful - most likely the weaker firms will end up being bought or leveraged by foreign investors, much like what happened in the 80s, when flush Japanese investors started buying up many American companies. The companies will probably survive; the "little people"? They're expendable, or so it would seem...
Mike
Don't rule out the total collapse scenario...
I know everyone wants to hold on to hope , but this is a broad-based , 'foundational' failure...
This is a kind of 'opinion' piece , in my estimation...But , it's consistent with the factual parts of the story that have come to light :
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20777.htm
The author doesn't come off as a crackpot...
Fact is , he has some fairly impressive credentials :
Mike Stathis is the Managing Principal of Apex Venture Advisors , a business and investment intelligence firm serving the needs of venture firms, corporations and hedge funds on a variety of projects. Mike's work in the private markets includes valuation analysis, deal structuring, and business strategy. In the public markets he has assisted hedge funds with investment strategy, valuation analysis, market forecasting, risk management, and distressed securities analysis. Prior to Apex Advisors, Mike worked at UBS and Bear Stearns, focusing on asset management and merchant banking.
The accuracy of his predictions and insights detailed in the 2006 release of America's Financial Apocalypse and Cashing in on the Real Estate Bubble have positioned him as one of America's most insightful and creative financial minds. These books serve as proof that he remains well ahead of the curve, as he continues to position his clients with a unique competitive advantage. His first book, The Startup Company Bible for Entrepreneurs has become required reading for high-tech entrepreneurs, and is used in several business schools as a required text for completion of the MBA program.
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/now-fear-stalks-britis
h-banks-933023.html
" Given its exposure to the property market the turbulence centred on Halifax Bank of Scotland Group (HBOS): shares in the bank were down almost 40 per cent at one point yesterday. It ended the day with a fifth of its worth destroyed, while the Royal Bank of Scotland lost a tenth of its value. The FTSE 100 fell to a three-year low – more than £500bn has been wiped off UK shares this year. "
**************************************************************************************************
That's 500bn Br.Pounds , not US $ !
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Meanwhile , here's the simple (and , accurate) explanation of some of what went wrong to create the current Wall Street debacle :
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/steph
en-foley-why-lehman-brothers-went-under-931988.html
What he describes are the effects , and some of the more obvious causes , but the root causes are still being broadly obscured by the compliant media and the government/financial mal-information machines...
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The downside to having all of ones investments in solid-value materials is the concern that anyone will have anything left to actually exchange for them.
I have a lot of contingency plans, mind you, for example one of my little motorbikes can be converted to alcohol fuel in about twenty minutes.
Swap out the #76 carb jet for the #91 and the regular head for a squash-banded hi-compression, drain and refill the tank with a 32:1 Alc-Oil mix and good to go.
Not interested in doin that cause I prefer to drink my booze, and sure as HELL don't wanna get the whole lot of it slapped with a motor fuel tax, which is the primary way the Feddies prevent you from makin yer own Alc-fuel or Bio-D, mind, since the financial penalty is prohibitively expensive - and also why certain farmers are a damn paranoid bunch about it.
In the end, I am more concerned for the rest of you than myself, cause while watching these assholes choke on dust and ashes could be satisfying, knowing you and I are in the end gonna be the ones paying for it always sucks.
Besides, a total collapse would cause so much havoc that it risks tearing apart the social restraints on a populace trained from pre-school to sociopathic behavior, and if ever there was a picture perfect scenario for the rise of "duelling warlords syndrome" there it is.
What has me so concerned is that some of this stuff, what with our fucked up and exploitive fiat money economy, and bought and paid for government protection of the elite...
Normally this stuff is like a boilers blowoff valve, it pops and you lose some steam, sure, but it's designed to do that, cause the alternative is the whole damn boiler blowing up in your face.
And here I am, watching the FedGov wire the fucking blowoff valve shut with the pressure rising.
As you can imagine, I ain't too happy with it, but it's never been unexpected.
IMAM "Have you heard anything I just said ?!"
Riddick "You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe...right?"
IMAM "That's right"
Riddick "Had to end sometime."
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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TIME FOR A SPOOF
http://www.ridiculopathy.com/news_detail.php?id=2171
Bush Takes Economy Beyond Thunderdome
NEW YORK, NY- In just a matter of months, the titans of Wall Street have collapsed in a heap around our feet. On Monday alone, following the sudden demise of Lehman Brothers, the Dow Jones Industrial Average plummeted more than 500 points as the Gulf Coast region continues to dig out from another devastating round of hurricanes. There can no longer be any doubt that decades of deregulation and institutional atrophy have given way to a state of financial anarchy, a new era of scarcity, lawlessness, and improvised post-apocalyptic fashion.
"The bad news is that your retirement fund is now pretty much worthless, and we're looking at the very real possibility of a Mad Max economy where average citizens murder one another over commodities like gasoline and potable water," said President Bush sheepishly. "On the plus side, however: hot chicks in kickass chainmail dresses."
In this, Bush is making the point that this new economy is not necessarily better or worse than the old one, just different. Plusses and minuses. For example, while brokerages and mortgage lenders appear to be tanking left and right, sellers of leather studded outerwear and car customizers (to equip your Taurus with assault weapons and steel plating) are going gangbusters.
For most Americans, this new cash-strapped, energy-starved economy is a chance to start over, to chuck their nine-to-five McJobs for an exciting life of modified dune buggies, shotguns, and blue hair. The thrill of living in its purest form. Each new day brings the opportunity kill, be killed to commit unspeakable acts for a gallon of gas or a loaf of wheat bread. In this sense, this new financial system gets down to the core of what the American way is really all about: competition, the survival of the fittest, the power of the haves used to crush the have-nots, and tricked-out vehicles.
"Sooner or later, we're going to find Tomorrow-morrow land, and we'll have all the gas we need," said Bush. "Until then, the process of filling up your tank is going to involve fighting a retarded kid in a pig mask. Sorry."
For those still clinging to the fading lights of Wall Street, financial experts say that there is still money to be made in pork futures. As a matter of fact, it's ridiculously easy. Just get crystal ball, line up some pigs and say "in your not so distant future I foresee... cold cuts and sausage. That'll be fifteen dollars. NEXT!"
Unwilling to give into the gathering throng calling for a rollback of 80's era deregulation and thus lose face with his Reagan-loving friends, Bush declared that regulation and oversight are actually at fault for the current financial crisis since these mechanisms were responsible for detecting and reporting the bad news that sent the financial markets tumbling this week. So instead, Bush has put forward a plan to dismantle the SEC, disband the Senate Banking Committee, and allow financial institutions to regulate themselves completely. Bush says that this forward-thinking approach was inspired by the groundbreaking work of economist William Golding who theorized that if brokerages and mortgage lenders were left alone on a deserted island for a few months, they would tend to work things out among themselves to the benefit of everyone- except for the fat kid, of course.
"Deregulation works," Bush insisted. "Everybody I know tells me that it does. I mean, just look around. All these folks around here are loaded, so something must be working, right?"
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time for a little truth
Behind the Costly Fannie/Freddie Mortgage Bailout
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/danny-schechter/behind-the-costly-fannie
f_b_124661.html
Quote:
Thank you Gulf States. Thank you for believing more in America than we may believe in ourselves.
Thank you Abu Dhabi for investing a billion dollars in the Hollywood film industry last week. Thank you Dubai for opening American-style malls and welcoming Donald Trump's latest hotel. And thank you Saudi Arabia for recycling some of your oil profits into purchases of American military hardware year after year. (Under pressure, Iraq is about to shell out 10 billion dollars to do the same!)
We are thrilled that even as we pay more for your oil, you pay out more and more for loans and investments in the US from your sovereign wealth funds, banks and investment portfolios.
And on behalf of these overseas investors and customers, thank you America, Mr. Obama AND Mr. McCain for not speaking out about our dependence on foreign money even as they both now denounce dependence on foreign oil.
Attention Drill, Baby, Drillheads: please note, they don't mind us drilling more oil pumps as long as you don't mess with the money pumps. In the end, piling on debt here is more profitable for overseas investors than supplying oil.
As CBS reports, "Forty-four cents out of every dollar our country owes in public debt is now owed to foreign investors - $2.2 trillion worth. That's nearly 10 percent more than just a year ago.
Because our debt at home is growing so fast, we've had to go abroad to borrow from the world's booming economies. The six Gulf States, including Kuwait, sit on $1.7 trillion in cash reserves; China's fund has $200 billion and Russia has $125 billion."
We clearly need the infusion of these funds to keep our economy afloat.
Last Friday, after the markets closed, The US government announced plans to take over the troubled mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. This happened when their share price collapsed in part because they had trouble issuing debt to fund their operations. This bailout may in the end cost taxpayers more than the Iraq War. (In other words, forget all tax cuts now. This bailout is going to be expensive, $200 billion to start.)
Close to collapse, these institutions were kept alive in part through foreign investments. As everyone knew, they were too big to fail but not only in terms of their domestic impact. Their failure would undermine global confidence in the U.S. economy, i.e. stop the inflow of big bucks. Watch what happens: foreign investors will be protected one way or the other even as American shareholders take a bath.
The question is: what will happen to American homeowners? So far they have been the last to be helped.
Confidence is already in short supply. When Wall Street plummets, world markets take a dive. AP reported last week: "Asian stock markets plunged Friday in the wake of a sell-off on Wall Street amid mounting concerns about a slump the U.S. economy and its impact on the global economy...No Asian market was spared from the carnage..." (The market shot back up on Monday because of the bailout but there is no reason to believe it will not remain volatile.)
China is affected too. The Central Bank there is now short of capital. Why? The New York Times reported: "China's central bank is in a bind. It has been on a buying binge in the United States over the last seven years, snapping up roughly $1 trillion worth of Treasury bonds and mortgage-backed debt issued by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Now the central bank needs an infusion of capital."
Welcome to a growing GLOBAL crisis as the Busheviks turn to socialism to save capitalism while China turns to capitalism to save socialism.
Bizarre, but true.
In the Gulf, money managers are aware of the depth of our financial crisis. They read the dismal IMF and Federal Reserve forecasts and know what's happening in the markets second by second. Ironically, just as billions from overseas are loaned DAILY to help with our debts, manNOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Hero, thanks. I think it's obvious that Greenspan's leadership of the Fed has been sorely missed.
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Ok...
So, worst case scenario... the markets collapse, the dollar value plumets, housing prices rise, as do gas and food...companies start downsizing to stay in the black...then they start failing anyways....
How many think we will see an actual revolution in our lifetime?
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfenstar:
How many think we will see an actual revolution in our lifetime?
I had a feeling I'd see actual Revolution this month...sure enough, I gave some to my dog this morning. No fleas.
H
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Quote:
How many think we will see an actual revolution in our lifetime?
Depends on your definition.
To some folk, at least on a small scale, there's been one goin on since 1905, it's just not usually violent.
Most folk just don't realize it.
-F
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About 50% of the peeps would have to get their heads out of their butts first. They think
business is better
God is going to save them
---------------------------------
Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Hero, thanks. I think it's obvious that Greenspan's leadership of the Fed has been sorely missed.
I believe a lot of the problems we are now facing are a result of Greenspan's bad monetary policy decisions. Greenspan waited too long to raise interest rates during the Dot com bubble, then when he finally did burst the bubble he lowered interest rates too aggressively and kept them too low for too long causing the housing bubble. Bernanke is much smarter than Greenspan, but the former fed chief did'nt leave him much to work with. Bernanke might as well lower interest rates now because the market has already done it for him. Because of course we all know that the Fed doesn't set interest rates, the market does.
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So, ummmmm...
Now that "we the people" own an 80% stake in AIG, the world's largest insurance company...
Any chance we're going to get any insurance out of the deal?
Naaaahhhh - that's just crazy talk! No way would the government sign on for something as SOCIALIST as that.
Mike
This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
So, ummmmm...
Now that "we the people" own an 80% stake in AIG, the world's largest insurance company...
Any chance we're going to get any insurance out of the deal?
Naaaahhhh - that's just crazy talk! No way would the government sign on for something as SOCIALIST as that.
80% Stake...That's what we really own...Except for that part where WE REALLY DON'T...
We're just the chumps who have to PAY FOR IT !
Over and over again...
Insurance ?...For us peons...Surely You jest...Are you Mad ?
Yah , no way the Gum-or-Mint would expect US to atone for their sins...
See , that's the part where a lot of folk get a little mixed up , you know , what with 'the FED'(Reserve) and
'The FEDS'(Treasury) sounding so much ALIKE...
Nationalize a PRIVATE CORPORATION ?
You are So Right , that IS just CRAZY TALK , why THAT'd be National Socialism , right ?
Hey , let's be sure to ask for an Allodial TITLE with that , shall we ?
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Sure, why not.
I mean we already have the Komityet Gosudarstvennoy Bezopasnosty, right ?
Soon as I ever heard the words "Department of Homeland Security" - I knew how fucked we were and started digging in even deeper than my previous smoke and mirrors games.
I mean, how far down the slope is it really, to criticism of the Gov being tagged a "mental illness" resuling in forced medication "for your own good" and the gulag if that don't cut it ?
I mean goddamn, it's damn near worth a terrorism charge even now, innit ?
As for the drugs, and the camps...
We ALREADY do it to children, camps and all, who dare to act out against the crapsack world and mountain of debt, restrictions and liabilities we're going to dump on their heads.
Think about that a minute, kids ain't by any use of the word stupid, not till they've been taught to be, stripped of will and critical thought by a public "education" system designed to do exactly that - and when it doesn't work... the drugs, and when that don't work, the camps.
Do you REALLY think it's that much of a stretch to apply it to adults ?
Just imagine for a second that you were an up and coming, reasonably bright kid faced with a system that punished you at ever turn and corner for every original thought, every act of resistance no matter how minor in overwhelming fashion.
All the while being told how important this bullshit is to your *snicker* "Future" of de-facto slavery, monstrous debt, and work work work die to enrich the already rich a little more.
Would make you a little rambunctious, wouldn't it now ?
But the system culls people like me, like them, now - with ever increasing efficiency, taking anyone capable of eventual resistance and pacifying them, even if it means destroying them.
You want the troops, the minds and bodies in numbers sufficient to turn the tide, first you must stop the system from obliterating them before they're capable enough to resist it effectively.
And you should start HERE.
http://www.caica.org/
http://www.isaccorp.org/
http://www.teenliberty.org/
http://www.libertarianrock.com/topics/teencamps/teencampsindex.html
(EDIT: Disclaimer, since anyone with half a brain is going to notice anyhow, yes I have some personal affiliation with Libertarian Rock, the specifics of which are no one elses biz.)
Like I said in another post, this is a rabbit hole I have seen the bottom of, often enough to want frequent flyer miles for - and being crass and callous is the best protection against being emotionally destroyed by the scenery.
And I always, ALWAYS bring one back... sometimes they even make it.
You want folks who can and will stand up to this shit, YOU have to get to them before the system does, it's just that simple.
You wanna do something about it, DO something about it, then - get enough reinforcements to mean something by preventing their destruction.
Words don't earn loyalty, DEEDS earn loyalty.
-Frem
It cannot be said enough, those who do not learn from history, are doomed to endlessly repeat it
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U.S. FOIA documents suggest American interests now interfering in Canadian federal election 2008
http://www.agoracosmopolitan.com/home/Frontpage/2008/09/15/02612.html
Quote:
SPP-NAU architects, also want to replace the Canadian Dollar as quickly as possible with an "Amero" -- a name coined by the NAU champion and U.S. academic Dr. Robert Pastor, for the currency of the NAU. If the SPP-NAU architects get their wish for a Stephen Harper majority government, reliable sources suggest that the Amero would replace the Canadian Dollar by late fall 2008. U.S. investigative journalists have already released evidence that the Amero has already been minted in Denver, and is ready to be transported into Canada. This evidence includes an Amero coin.
Canadians can expect the official reason to be that since the Canadian Dollar and U.S. Dollar have reached near parity, why not have a "common currency" to increase "prosperity". But the "prosperity" that they refer to is not for the masses, but the "elites". The Amero, is an apparent scheme to control monetary and other policy, by elites based in the United States, who can use the new currency along with parallel launched biometric technology to further execute an apparent fascistic agenda.
Harvard educated and investigative journalist Dr. Jerome Corsi, has also obtained FOIA documents, which reinforce apparent U.S. prompting of a Federal Election in Canada, and subsequent orchestration.
According to Dr. Jerome Corsi, the George W Bush administration "is running a shadow government without Congressional oversight in conjunction with Canada and Mexico, under the guise of a program “to increase security and to enhance prosperity among the three countries through greater cooperation.”
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destroying the dollar
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Quote:Ayup! 100% agreed! Thanks for putting it so succinectly.
I believe a lot of the problems we are now facing are a result of Greenspan's bad monetary policy decisions. Greenspan waited too long to raise interest rates during the Dot com bubble, then when he finally did burst the bubble he lowered interest rates too aggressively and kept them too low for too long causing the housing bubble.
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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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I agree that the interest-rate policies were flawed, but I'm not sure that's the total problem.
I remember when many countries were complaining about the low US rates b/c they wanted to raise theirs and couldn't, as long as the US rates were low. But even with those very same policies in place and despite international grumbling the US remained economically strong. Remember when Asian currencies were collapsing like dominoes and money was fleeing to the US stock market ? And the economy remained strong despite the global recession of 2000- 2001. Finally, the dot com bubble bursting was a relatively short-lived problem and limited to a small sector of the economy. At that time the US government had room to maneuver because the dollar was strong, the government was getting out of the debt-hole and the US economy had the confidence of both USers and countries around the globe.
Yes, the housing bubble was fueled by lower interest rates. And yes, they were intentionally kept too low too long to artificially inflate the US economy (housing bubble) in an international economic con game. But it was the only thing going that maintained appearances - the economy was fundamentally going south due to ruinous government spending and ruinous tax cuts. Those two basic facts lost the confidence of the global economy, caused the rest of the world to abandon US dollars and go to Euros, oil and gold, and has now squeezed policy into a corner where the only thing they can do is print more money to bail out the investment firms and banks. (That and the Iraq war which led countries to disentangle themselves from the US in as many ways as they could laid the groundwork for today.)
If the dollar were strong and the government on its way to solvency, they would have had the option of borrowing at low rates and boosting other parts of the economy through tax breaks and government spending - to improve infrastructure for example. We would at least be getting something for those dollars.
But what we're seeing now is what happens when you hollow-out the entire economy through tax cuts, deregulation, bad policies, and ruinous war spending, (all the while trying to hide the problems with an artificial housing bubble) for the profit of a very few.
I'm just glad it came back to bite the repubicans in the ass while they were still in power. I suspect when all is said and done, George 'Dubya' Bush will go down in history as THE architect of the US economic downfall.
"The economy was fundamentally going south." THIS is what many of us were trying to tell Rap, and all the while he kept insisting everything was A-OK. That's why I'm so willing to keep reminding him. Some of us saw the train coming down the tracks.
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Silence is consent.
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So, Rap - anything to say ?
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Yes, the housing bubble was fueled by lower interest rates. And yes, they were kept too low too long to artificially (and intentionally) inflate the US economy (housing bubble) in an international economic con game. But it was the only thing going that maintained appearances - the economy was fundamentally going south due to ruinous government spending and ruinous tax cuts.
I think you've got it mostly right, but I disagree that the economy is "fundamentally going south". We are in a small downturn in the economy as a result of the normal economic cycle. There is a difference between the fundamentals of the economy and the financial crisis we are now facing. Though the financial crisis will extend the downturn due to the risk premium that companies must now pay to borrow money, it is more of a stock market event than a change in the fundamentals of our economy. The US is in the best position we have been in years to compete in the global market and when the uncertainty of the current financial crisis subsides the US will be back on top in no time.
I hate to say it but " the fundamentals of our US economy are strong". Those of you hoping for the demise of the US economy will be sadly disappointed. Those of you that are smart enough to see an opportunity when it presents itself will be rewarded.
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Who would you rather believe - the captain of the Titanic saying everything is fine while the band plays on deck ----- or the crew visibly scurrying to keep the ship afloat while others jump for the lifeboats ?
While that's a rhetorical question, perhaps you haven't heard that international banks have agreed to pour billions into the global economy to keep it from collapsing.
Or maybe you think that 1929 happened in one day when Wall Street traders jumped from buildings, rather than the economy fracturing over time. Perhaps you're thinking that that is the only omen of collapse - those bodies scattered on the sidewalk.
And who are those 'people' who should be ready to take advantage of the opportunity ? The 10% of home owners who are in default or behind in their payments ? The middle class that's had their discretionary income and savings lowered to zero over the past 8 years ? Just wondering.
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Silence is consent.
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Quote:Hey Kirk, I guess this is where you and I differ.(I also differ with O2Black and Fletch2).
There is a difference between the fundamentals of the economy and the financial crisis we are now facing.
I think peeps don't realize how much "the fundamentals of our economy" depend on our monetary and fiscal policies. And that all depends on whether our policy-makers think "the economy" us pulled by demand or pushed by investment.
If they think the economy is pushed by investment, they will make sure that $$$ cycles towards the wealthy. In their view, that "spare" $$ will then be invested to create new jobs, which will bring $$$ to the poorer peeps. That's the "trickle down" theory of economics. OTOH if they think that the economy is pulled by demand, they will cycle $$$ downwards thru progressive taxation etc and that $$$ in the hands of the majority will create demand, which will lead to increased hiring and expanded economic activity. That's the Keynsian notion.
In my reading, aggressive implementation of trickle-down theory leads to depressions and that's where we are right now. The income gap is the highest its been since 1929. That should tell you something!! It means that demand across the entire economy was based on borrowing, and the borrowing was based on simultaneous bubbles in housing and stocks. As the bubbles pop, people can no longer sustain personal debt (which was at a historic high) and consumption, leading to an actual contraction in jobs. Unless real $$- not more debt- is pumped into the average person's hands, falling consumption will lead to falling employment, and the whole process could spiral out of control.
Now if the US dollar gets cheap enough, and China's internal consumption increases, maybe we would eventually export more to China. But that's an eventual maybe which will take years to show results.
I think the Adminstration's fiscal and economic policies (borrowing money to concentrate wealth upwards) and the Fed's monetary policies (make money freely available) have been working synergistically, but in a bad way.
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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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"That means that demand across the entire economy was based on borrowing ..." Just like 1929.
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
And who are those 'people' who should be ready to take advantage of the opportunity ? The 10% of home owners who are in default or behind in their payments ? The middle class that's had their discretionary income and savings lowered to zero over the past 8 years ? Just wondering.
Obviously those who nave lost their jobs or their houses might not be able to take advantage of the current downturn in the market, but the average person can. Even if the average persons discretionary income has fallen(which I doubt),how about the next time a new I-phone comes out you fore-go the latest gizmo and put some money in an IRA. Americans are real good at making excuses why they don't save, but most could if they just gave up a few frivolous expenditures. Those that still have 401k's should increase their percentage going into stock funds now instead of running scared with the masses and moving into money markets. Those that have been waiting 3 or 4 year to buy a house should go out and make a low ball offer on a house. Areas where the house prices have fallen 30% since 2005 are stabilizing and prices are starting to recover. You've got to live somewhere and if you can afford it home values are reasonably affordable again in some areas. Home builder stocks have bottomed in recent months and this is a sign that the home prices may have bottomed in many areas.
It looks like you might have to move quick to take advantage of this market bottom. The Fed is rumored to be ready to take all of the bad debt paper out of the market temporarily to stabilize the financial system. Just the rumor has the Dow up almost 400pts.
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Quote:The typical person's discretionary income HAS fallen. It's been falling over the past 8 years. Yes, some ppl are doing better than before, but more people are doing worse. Don't make the mistake of "averaging". If you have ten baseball players sitting on a bench, and nine make $10,000 and year and one makes $10,000,000, the "average" income is about $1,000,000.
Even if the average persons discretionary income has fallen(which I doubt)
The prediction I've seen (from websites which accurately predicted this fiasco) is for a "L" shaped recovery... down, then flat for years. In other words, don't expect a big "bounce" real soon. Also, if "the Fed" swoops in and litters the landscape with $$$ to cover bad debts, what does that do to the dollar?
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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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"but the average person can"
"Among workers with salaries of less than $1 million, the average wage in 2006 was up $170 from 2000."
All of $170. But prices have gone up considerably more than that since then - why, you could use that up in gas alone. As to buying relatively cheap consumer goods - are you saying that people will get wealthy buying stocks at the cost of a i-phone ? Please, most of us are smarter than that. What the US has is a rental economy, with the mindset following along.
As for the DOW -- it STILL has a long way to climb out of the hole Dubya put it in so many years ago.
Yep, a great economy. And it's gonna rebound any day now from 2002. Any day. I can feel it coming. Soon.
Not.
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I think it's a bad idea for the government to bail out these companies. Bad. I don't how to fix it, I just know this is the wrong way.
---
Sometimes I lie awake at night, and I ask, "Where have I gone wrong?" Then a voice says to me, "This is going to take more than one night."
-- Charlie Brown
www.thatcostumegirl.com
www.thatweirdgirl.com
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All of this reminds me of the Great Savings & Loan Debacle of the 80's and 90's.
Bottom line is we, the taxpayer, wind up paying the bill at the end of the day. Someone had posted a good question earlier regarding this: Where were all the experts, elected officials and such when all this was taking place?
I read somewhere that warnings were given. I also saw a special town-hall meeting on a local cable station addressing this very issue - the bursting of the housing bubble and the mortgage lenders hand in all this.
Saw a small article in the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/19/business/19bush.html?_r=1&hp&oref=sl
ogin
"Looky here Laura, Rome is burning, get me a fiddle."
"Who's flying this thing, Oh yeah that would be me."
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Relax, it's all part of The Plan.
Never mind that AIG CIA is in 130 countries, funded by an $85-Billion gift from US taxslaves.
www.rense.com
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Now that picture is SWEEEEET!
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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Quote:Fiscal responsibility has never been part of the Bush Admin's plan, so what they REALLY mean is they will enter into a whole new dimension of fiscal irresponsibility.
It's all part of the program to restore confidence in financial markets. They are absolutely petrified of a run on financial assets and they came very close to that on Thursday," said Boris Schlossberg, director of currency research at GFT Forex in New York. "At this point they have just decided that fiscal responsibility goes out the door and anything and everything that needs to be shored up financially will be done so ... It seems to be working."
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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
All of this reminds me of the Great Savings & Loan Debacle of the 80's and 90's.
Bottom line is we, the taxpayer, wind up paying the bill at the end of the day.
I think there is a real good chance that this financial crisis won't end up costing the taxpayers like the S&L crisis. I think a better comparison is the bail out of Chrysler Motors. In the Chrysler bail out the taxpayers actually ended up making money, and I think there's a good chance that will happen this time around. The "Mortgage Backed Securities" that at are at the root of this crisis do have substantial value. The problem is that they have become illiquid, driving their market value to near zero. If the Fed buys these securities at ten cents on the dollar and holds them tell maturity, it's possible the the taxpayers could make a lot of money even if many of the securities end up worthless.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:Quote:
Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
All of this reminds me of the Great Savings & Loan Debacle of the 80's and 90's.
Bottom line is we, the taxpayer, wind up paying the bill at the end of the day.
I think there is a real good chance that this financial crisis won't end up costing the taxpayers like the S&L crisis. I think a better comparison is the bail out of Chrysler Motors. In the Chrysler bail out the taxpayers actually ended up making money, and I think there's a good chance that will happen this time around. The "Mortgage Backed Securities" that at are at the root of this crisis do have substantial value. The problem is that they have become illiquid, driving their market value to near zero. If the Fed buys these securities at ten cents on the dollar and holds them tell maturity, it's possible the the taxpayers could make a lot of money even if many of the securities end up worthless.
Hello,
I never heard the term illiquid before today. It now seems to be some kind of buzz word.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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"Market liquidity is a business, economics or investment term that refers to an asset's ability to be easily converted through an act of buying or selling without causing a significant movement in the price and with minimum loss of value. An act of exchange of a less liquid asset with a more liquid asset is called liquidation. Liquidity also refers both to that quality of a business which enables it to meet its payment obligations, in terms of possessing sufficient liquid assets; and to such assets themselves."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidity
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kirkules:
"Market liquidity is a business, economics or investment term that refers to an asset's ability to be easily converted through an act of buying or selling without causing a significant movement in the price and with minimum loss of value. An act of exchange of a less liquid asset with a more liquid asset is called liquidation. Liquidity also refers both to that quality of a business which enables it to meet its payment obligations, in terms of possessing sufficient liquid assets; and to such assets themselves."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquidity
Hello,
Thank you for the definition of Liquidity. But as I was saying, I've never heard the term illiquid before today. I believe it is becoming some kind of buzzword.
--Anthony
"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner
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Quote:
In the Chrysler bail out the taxpayers actually ended up making money, and I think there's a good chance that will happen this time around.
How's that? The government, from what I remember of the deal, gave Chrysler interest-free loans, so the taxpayer didn't make a dime. Lee Iaccoca, however, DID make out like a bandit, in bonuses and stock options.
This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.
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Read an interesting comment which went something like: "The difference between what Hugo Chavez does and our bailout is that Hugo Chavez doesn't put his taxpayers on the hook. When he takes a company, he just takes 'em."
We have capitalism for the poor, and socialism for the rich.
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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
How's that? The government, from what I remember of the deal, gave Chrysler interest-free loans, so the taxpayer didn't make a dime. Lee Iaccoca, however, DID make out like a bandit, in bonuses and stock options.
Interest free loans would of course entail loosing money.
More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.
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Someone has to "pay the piper" - I heard that in a news cast the other night and it is so true.
Greed my friends, rules the day - remember Enron. The poor slubs who kept investing their hard-earned dollars into that fiasco at the behest of the crooks who smiled in their while lying through their teeth.
It seems to me that The Plan is to break the current system and create a new one (as in that video I saw on YouTube) so that a very small group of people (richfolk) could corner the market, so to speak. The New World Order ladies and gents. Keep your eyes opened for that one.
"Taxslaves" is right!
5% of the world's population controls us 95 percenters.
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Why is it that every time we have a Republican President in office in the last 25 years, we end up paying hundreds of billions of dollars in "bailouts" - all while they whistle and claim they never raised taxes?
This latest round of bailouts essentially steals $4000 from the pocket of every man, woman, and child in this country - which, amortized over the last 8 years of reckless spending, works out to a $500 per year, per person, tax increase!
This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.
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Less than 5%, actually. More like 0.001%
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Any idea, no matter how much you may agree with it, can be radicalized and employed as an excuse for violence. There is no such thing as a righteous or untouchable philosophy, and when you start thinking that there is, you have become an extremist.- Finn Mac Cumhal
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:Quote:
In the Chrysler bail out the taxpayers actually ended up making money, and I think there's a good chance that will happen this time around.
How's that? The government, from what I remember of the deal, gave Chrysler interest-free loans, so the taxpayer didn't make a dime. Lee Iaccoca, however, DID make out like a bandit, in bonuses and stock options.
The Chrysler loans were guaranteed by the Fed and structured so that the taxpayers would benefit if the loans were paid off. I 1983 Chrysler paid off the loans and the taxpayers made 350 million dollars. Hopefully this time around the Feds will structure the bailout to benefit taxpayers. The good thing is that as soon as the Fed starts buying these securities they will become liquid and other private buyers will come into the market. Most of the securities bought buy the Fed should be at a fraction of their actual value if we're lucky.
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Thanks for the clarification, Kirk - I did a little bit of looking online, but was slammed at work, so didn't get to devote much time to it, and didn't find much about the actual repayment plan. If the taxpayers benefited from it, I guess that's good on Carter...
As for the current situation - I'd *LOVE* to see the Fed put the same kind of stipulations on these loans and credits that the banks and credit card companies put on us mere paeans; 18.9% APR, if you're late it goes to 24.99%, if you miss a payment, it goes to 34.99%, etc. Let 'em see how it feels. :)
And if the Fed can take them over and resell them at a profit when (or IF) they again become solvent and profitable, more power to 'em - and to us. But knowing our government, they'd simply let them go for pennies on the dollar. :(
Gonna be interesting to see how it all shakes out. Personally, a fairly large part of me wants to play the "free market" card and say just let 'em all burn to the ground. But I suppose free market economies only really work if the government is there to bail them out. Sounds like socialism to me. Or welfare. Take your pick, but Conservatives are supposed to be against it.
Mike
This world is a comedy for those who think, and a tragedy for those who feel.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
Someone has to "pay the piper" - I heard that in a news cast the other night and it is so true.
...It seems to me that The Plan is to break the current system and create a new one (as in that video I saw on YouTube) so that a very small group of people (richfolk) could corner the market, so to speak. The New World Order ladies and gents. Keep your eyes opened for that one.
"Taxslaves" is right!
ALL TRUE...Folk who're still believing otherwise just haven't looked into the Facts for long enough...Or , at all !
Follow the 'Money' , people :
http://solari.com/archive/missing_money
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New York regulators close Signature Bank, second US bank failure in days after SVB collapse
https://www.channelnewsasia.com/business/signature-bank-new-york-close
d-days-after-silicon-valley-bank-shutdown-second-failure-3342166
Top US crypto bank Silvergate has gone into liquidation
https://mashable.com/article/silvergate-bank-crypto-liquidation-collap
se
First Republic drops 70%, leads decline in bank stocks despite government's backstop of SVB
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/13/first-republic-drops-bank-stocks-decli
ne.html
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